View Full Version : And you think Edward Snowden is the traitor?
Team Sergeant
08-18-2014, 09:54
The more I read the more I'm convinced that Edward Snowden did the right thing for the right reasons. These other pieces of shit need some jail time if not just for lying to the American people....
Just keep nodding your heads north and south believing everything the "government" tells you until your "Freedoms" are gone.
The intelligence community's secrets and lies
BY STEVE CHAPMAN | AUGUST 7, 2014 | 11:00 AM
TOPICS: CIA NATIONAL SECURITY NSA JAMES CLAPPER
A diplomat was once defined as someone whose job is to lie for his country. That's apparently what makes them different from intelligence officers, whose function is to lie to their country.
How else can you explain why CIA Director John Brennan hasn't been shown the door? Or how Director of National Intelligence James Clapper remains on the federal payroll? Or why Keith Alexander stepped down as head of the National Security Agency only when he was good and ready?
Each of them lied flagrantly to the American people about vital matters of public concern. None paid a price.
The latest example erupted last week, when the CIA's inspector general confirmed that the agency had hacked into Senate Intelligence Committee computers and read emails sent by staffers. The investigation came after Sen. Dianne Feinstein revealed the surreptitious search, charging that the CIA had violated federal law and the Constitution.
At the time, Brennan rejected Feinstein's accusation, insisting that "nothing could be further from the truth." Places far from the truth are his native land. Only after the inspector general delivered his report was Brennan forced to admit he was wrong about Feinstein's complaint — without revealing whether the falsehood was the result of dishonesty or of ignorance.
Yet President Obama shrugged it all off. "I have full confidence in John Brennan," he said, raising the question of what the CIA director would have to do to forfeit his trust. Kill Zooey Deschanel with his bare hands on national TV?
The committee's mistake was looking into something the CIA really didn't want examined: how it interrogated detainees and what it got from them. What the still-classified committee report says, according to the Associated Press, is that the methods "were far more brutal than previously understood" and "failed to produce life-saving intelligence" — and that the agency deceived Congress and the State Department about them.
The assessment is supposed to be made public at some point, but the fight with the committee isn't over. On Tuesday, Feinstein said the CIA is insisting on redactions that would deprive the public of "key facts that support the report's findings and conclusions."
It's no surprise that Brennan finds transparency unappealing. In using waterboarding and other vicious techniques, the agency shredded a 1994 federal law that bans torture. It violated international treaties ratified by the United States.
It even killed people: Lawrence Wilkerson, chief of staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell during the Bush administration, testified that 108 detainees had died in the custody of the CIA or the U.S. military, including at least 25 homicides. The CIA destroyed hundreds of hours' worth of video footage documenting what it had done.
Lying to the people they are supposed to serve is just part of the job description for top intelligence officials. At a 2013 Senate hearing, Clapper was asked, "Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?" He said it didn't — despite the agency's massive collection of domestic phone records.
Clapper delivered that reply even though he had been given the question in advance, and he stuck to it even after the committee offered him the chance to change it. He gave it because he figured he could get away with lying. And he might have, if Edward Snowden hadn't exposed the truth.
cont:
http://washingtonexaminer.com/the-intelligence-communitys-secrets-and-lies/article/2551781
Trapper John
08-18-2014, 13:51
The bad acts of Brennan and Clapper or anyone else do not justify the actions of Lil' Eddie or at least not in my mind. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one TS. :p
A modest proposal: Hang Clapper and Brennan and confine Lil' Eddie to be Putin's Bitch. Works for me. :D
TS ~ I'm along the same feeling as you. I do feel there are tons, and I mean TONS of people within our Goverment that should be going to Jail over these Problems. I will say that I feel that Snowden, IMO, didn't "Try hard enough" to get the word out. I do still feel he was handled by "SOMEONE." Done very well TO!!!
Have yo read No Place to Hide? Pick it up, very EYE OPENING!!
http://www.amazon.com/No-Place-Hide-Snowden-Surveillance/dp/162779073X
Trapper John
08-18-2014, 14:36
I do still feel he was handled by "SOMEONE." Done very well TO!!!
Have yo read No Place to Hide? Pick it up, very EYE OPENING!!
http://www.amazon.com/No-Place-Hide-Snowden-Surveillance/dp/162779073X
No doubt he was "handled". IMO the lead candidate is Julian Assange. Still does not exonerate him though.
No doubt he was "handled". IMO the lead candidate is Julian Assange. Still does not exonerate him though.
Yes he was by Julian Assange, but you have to look two or three levels out to see who it really was/is.
Lighthouse
08-19-2014, 09:00
It's good to know I'm not alone in this view of issues. No wonder the gvrnmt is afraid of vets...
Trapper John
08-19-2014, 20:59
Yes he was by Julian Assange, but you have to look two or three levels out to see who it really was/is.
OK, now you have me curious MG. Your skills in this area are way beyond mine. Care to share your speculation of who or what beyond Assange. Inquiring minds want to know. :D
No doubt Assange is not a sole operator and something or someone is pulling his strings. Probably and institution or government. What's your assessment?
Streck-Fu
10-19-2015, 11:18
OK, now you have me curious MG. Your skills in this area are way beyond mine. Care to share your speculation of who or what beyond Assange. Inquiring minds want to know. :D
No doubt Assange is not a sole operator and something or someone is pulling his strings. Probably and institution or government. What's your assessment?
After a discussion based on the conflict of opinions on whether Snowden was a traitor or hero (or pawn), I was reviewing several threads on the subject to include this one....
Is there any chance Trapper John's question could be answered or elaborated on? Just for the sake of becoming better informed? :D
Surf n Turf
10-19-2015, 17:53
No doubt he was "handled". IMO the lead candidate is Julian Assange. Still does not exonerate him though.
Sorry Trapper John,
Julian Assange is an awful weak candidate to be put forward as a "handler" for anyone.
If you had posited that he was also being handled, and at the end was one of the Boffins at Langley /Meade who was, late in life, cleansing his sins, I might agree.
SnT
I will say that I feel that Snowden, IMO, didn't "Try hard enough" to get the word out.
Concur.
Trapper John
10-20-2015, 09:18
Sorry Trapper John,
Julian Assange is an awful weak candidate to be put forward as a "handler" for anyone.
If you had posited that he was also being handled, and at the end was one of the Boffins at Langley /Meade who was, late in life, cleansing his sins, I might agree.
SnT
Sounds like a story line from "Blacklist".....It must be the nefarious Cabol (spelling??) :D
Assange is still the next in-line as the handler and probably is a "cut-out". Remember, it was his attorneys that were accompanying Lil' Eddie on his big adventure to and from China and on into Russia.
I can believe that Assange is handled too by someone or some institution (foreign or domestic). I think we can safely rule out the Chinese. They were getting all the SIGINT they needed through hacking. BTW, the China asylum attempt just showed how uninformed the "Handler" really is.
Unless that was a Red Herring to brilliantly throw everyone off track. Then I am guessing the Russians were pulling the strings and are the ultimate Handlers.
Or maybe the Clinton Foundation is behind it all?? :D
Trapper John
10-20-2015, 09:32
I am taking an unpopular view point, but I say that NSAs collection of metadata is a very useful tool for monitoring (mapping) suspected terrorists their networks and their activities.
When 100,000 Syrian "refugees" are resettled CONUS we may be wishing that we weren't so quick to condemn this program. Then we will see the true damage caused by Lil' Eddie and just how far ahead his Handlers were thinking.
The Russian handler scenario begins to fit.
Trapper John
10-20-2015, 11:52
So the problem with that is it is illegal. The NSA and CIA are NOT allowed to work within the US borders by law. That is illegal for them to do so. To allow an illegal activity for the better good is a step in the wrong direction. Remember Caesars power grab of the Roman Republic that turned it into an empire. Remember the saying freedom is not free? Part of that price is the fact the government limitations on power make us vulnerable to attack. Not to cross threads but that is part of the reason of the second amendment. We are able to defend our selves against the hoard of Syrians here that may try an attack. To rely solely on the government for protection is not what our founders envisioned for this country.
As for the Russian handlers I do agree it hearkens back to the cold war and KGB operations. Then again if the NSA had not been stepping on their dicks there would not have been an opportunity for the USSR......errrrr I mean Russians to recruit him. :munchin
Very good points! So that leaves us with one option - we turn the whole NSA surveillance program over to MtnGoat! :D
Badger52
10-20-2015, 15:43
Then again, it's entirely possible that it's as simple as previously thought, including the circuitous route (geographically-speaking) he took to end up in Russia. Given his more recent actions vis a vis his respect for the current US administration, Putin had nothing to lose by granting Snowden a place to chill out. (Sitting back after stirring the pot & watching a few national pots boil over in indignation might be a perk for him....)
So the problem with that is it is illegal.
If the FISC authorized the activity, how was it illegal?:confused:
http://www.ibtimes.com/us-spy-court-fisc-allows-nsa-collect-telephone-metadata-3-more-months-1526594
WarriorDiplomat
10-20-2015, 18:39
So the problem with that is it is illegal. The NSA and CIA are NOT allowed to work within the US borders by law. That is illegal for them to do so. To allow an illegal activity for the better good is a step in the wrong direction. Remember Caesars power grab of the Roman Republic that turned it into an empire. Remember the saying freedom is not free? Part of that price is the fact the government limitations on power make us vulnerable to attack. Not to cross threads but that is part of the reason of the second amendment. We are able to defend our selves against the hoard of Syrians here that may try an attack. To rely solely on the government for protection is not what our founders envisioned for this country.
As for the Russian handlers I do agree it hearkens back to the cold war and KGB operations. Then again if the NSA had not been stepping on their dicks there would not have been an opportunity for the USSR......errrrr I mean Russians to recruit him. :munchin
Agreed, I am against this and I think Snowden is a hero or should be. Abuse of power should never go unchecked and according to law collecting on it's own citizens is the same thing the Nazi's and Communists did. I will take freedom from tyranny and would rather fight for freedom than stand back and allow martial law be pushed onto us for the greater good?
ddoering
10-20-2015, 18:49
If the FISC authorized the activity, how was it illegal?:confused:
http://www.ibtimes.com/us-spy-court-fisc-allows-nsa-collect-telephone-metadata-3-more-months-1526594
One could argue that a secret court should be illegal.
OK, now you have me curious MG. Your skills in this area are way beyond mine. Care to share your speculation of who or what beyond Assange. Inquiring minds want to know. :D
No doubt Assange is not a sole operator and something or someone is pulling his strings. Probably and institution or government. What's your assessment?
OKay John.. This is my thinking over this.. Some we all of Anna Chapman and he 9 OTHER FRIENDS. How she worked and whom she WORKS for. So let me throw this out there, Lindsay Mills, so the Lovely Edward Snowden's GF. You seen her??
https://www.google.com/search?q=Edward+Snowden+girlfriend&biw=1920&bih=1037&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CFQQsARqFQoTCPLq-v_T0sgCFcqmHgodqZAJDg
So let me put on my Foil Tin Hat to explain this. SO FSB (SVR) likely has people into many different USG Agencies. We all know that, look at the 2010 bust of the 10 to 12 Russians with Anna Chapman here in the USA and overseas. Not really that hard to slap a decent looking girl onto Snowden, which I say did happen. So through elicitation and SEX, she tells him what is NEEDED to be done. Go down that road however you want John.
John I'm on the thinking that Julian Assange was some kind of "Cut-Out" or Intermediary of some kind. If you go back and look at how and when Julian Assange DID different THINGS, IMO it follows the old style as described by Anatoliy Golitsyn in his books. Yes, maybe a FAR REACH, but shit Anna Chapman and her friends did it. Hell that is where the American TV Show came from.. haha Putin has gone back to the Schooling that he was raised on, KGB Style. Now the Russian Federation has been going back to this old style for some time. Nothing new here.
Haha.. love it, "his attorneys." Glenn Greenwald (Yes a Attorney) and Laura Poitras are two POS IMO. Both hate the USG, maybe for a good reason, that they hide in foreign countries.
Glenn Greenwald wrote an article in The Solon on Snowden, where he first started out, earlier this year.
So POS Snowden's Hot GF handled him? Maybe or likely??
So Julian Assange "Cut-Out" or Intermediary? Maybe or likely??
So the problem with that is it is illegal. The NSA and CIA are NOT allowed to work within the US borders by law. That is illegal for them to do so. To allow an illegal activity for the better good is a step in the wrong direction. Remember Caesars power grab of the Roman Republic that turned it into an empire. Remember the saying freedom is not free? Part of that price is the fact the government limitations on power make us vulnerable to attack. Not to cross threads but that is part of the reason of the second amendment. We are able to defend our selves against the hoard of Syrians here that may try an attack. To rely solely on the government for protection is not what our founders envisioned for this country.
As for the Russian handlers I do agree it hearkens back to the cold war and KGB operations. Then again if the NSA had not been stepping on their dicks there would not have been an opportunity for the USSR......errrrr I mean Russians to recruit him. :munchin
No this incorrect.. the NSA and CIA are allowed to work within the US borders by law. They both must have Approval to do so by the DOJ. Which they both have MOA/LOA/MOU between the different agencies. So yes they can work within the USA borders, and they DO.
Now as far as this Good or Bad Snowden, BLUF of the USA PATRIOT Act was to track all kinds of different actives. But people in Power, on both sides of the aisle to advantage of the American Trust. We they started unwarranted search and seizure on blanked Secret Courts and those Secret Blank Authorize court-approved roving wiretaps and the court-approved seizure of records and property. Also I feel Obama, or Democrats or key people within the USG used Obama's PATROIT Sunsets Extension in 2011 PATRIOT Act in getting the roving wiretaps, and searches of business records to start targeting Americans. Mainly of the GOP or Non-Obama/Democrat "FREINDLY" Groups or Americans. But That's just my Tin Foil Hat thinking going on.
With that said, IMO the PATRIOT was a good idea fairy, that had some great meaning behind what the Administration of President George W. Bush wanted to do. It took five different U.S. law and rolled them up into one; they rolled or expanded the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (FISA), the Electronic Communications Privacy Act of 1986 (ECPA), the Money Laundering Control Act of 1986 and Bank Secrecy Act (BSA), and the Immigration and Nationality Act (made ICE and DHS). I will say I do think it is VERY Strange that the PATRIOT ACT happen within 45 days or so of 9-11. SO was it already happen and not the Government had a clear reason to openly gather all KINDS of DATA?? I mean the Clinton basically started the whole intelligence surveillance programs.
OK, now you have me curious MG. Your skills in this area are way beyond mine. Care to share your speculation of who or what beyond Assange. Inquiring minds want to know. :D
No doubt Assange is not a sole operator and something or someone is pulling his strings. Probably and institution or government. What's your assessment?
John off subject, but look into this messaging app, and if you want dig into other "Secure" Messaging apps like Gliph, Snapchat, and WhatsApp.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2871412/how-much-trust-can-you-put-in-telegram-messenger.html
One could argue that a secret court should be illegal.
Illegal or immoral?
FISC (http://www.fisc.uscourts.gov/about-foreign-intelligence-surveillance-court) is absolutely legal and outlined in Title 50, chapter 36.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/1802
The secrecy comes from the classified topics argued before the court. The FISC isn't the Federal Reserve.;)
Secret court legalities aside, the NSA charter doe not allow them to operate inside US borders to my knowledge. Just because someone signed off on it does not make it legal.
EO 12333 (http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/codification/executive-order/12333.html) is pretty clear:
1.12 Intelligence Components Utilized by the Secretary of Defense. In carrying out the responsibilities assigned in section 1.11, the Secretary of Defense is authorized to utilize the following:
(b) National Security Agency, whose responsibilities shall include:
(13) Conduct of such administrative and technical support activities within and outside the United States as are necessary to perform the functions described in sections (1) through (12) above, including procurement.
When a Federal judge signs a court order authorizing an activity, how can that ever be considered to be illegal? An extreme example would be death penalty. It's illegal to kill in the US whereas when a judge authorizes it in accordance with law, 100% legal.
DIYPatriot
10-21-2015, 12:00
Now as far as this Good or Bad Snowden, BLUF of the USA PATRIOT Act was to track all kinds of different actives. But people in Power, on both sides of the aisle to advantage of the American Trust. We they started unwarranted search and seizure on blanked Secret Courts and those Secret Blank Authorize court-approved roving wiretaps and the court-approved seizure of records and property. Also I feel Obama, or Democrats or key people within the USG used Obama's PATROIT Sunsets Extension in 2011 PATRIOT Act in getting the roving wiretaps, and searches of business records to start targeting Americans. Mainly of the GOP or Non-Obama/Democrat "FREINDLY" Groups or Americans. But That's just my Tin Foil Hat thinking going on.
At a previous employer, I was tasked with developing interfaces that collect this sort of data. The feds get it based on directives provided by OFAC (http://www.treasury.gov/about/organizational-structure/offices/Pages/Office-of-Foreign-Assets-Control.aspx) (BSA (http://www.federalreserve.gov/bankinforeg/topics/bsa.htm)). Based on my experiences, you have zero tin foil hat thinking going on. They do get this data and boy, do they get lots of it. For instance, SAR (suspicious activity reporting) is just one method allowing banks to report on businesses/people. Failing to do so can cost the banks lots of money, interest rate penalties from the fed, surprise audits from the IRS (though they never target any businesses or groups, right?) and the list goes on. You get the idea.
Trapper John
10-21-2015, 12:06
So I guess I am the odd man out on the legality/constitutionality/desirability of the NSA surveillance program.
I can certainly sympathize and even agree with the notion that this is governmental over-reach or it at least has the potential for that. I am not so certain that has been used to "spy" on American citizens for political gain, but in light of the IRS scandal, I certainly think that fear is justified.
But here's my issue: Collection of metadata is certainly an effective tool to mapping out terrorist networks in CONUS. Further, there is a need. Therefore, the NSA program is a potentially valuable tool.
Similarly, it is a program that is ripe for abuse and can be used for nefarious political purposes by immoral political and bureaucratic leaders. We have seen ample evidence of that recently.
So is it the tool that we should attack or the immoral/illegal acts of the perpetrators that should be attacked?
Think of it like the anti-gun arguments. Is it the gun (tool) or the perpetrator that is at fault. We don't advocate banning of guns to reduce the incidence of their misuse by criminals, why then ban the NSA collection of metadata?
Aren't we just focusing on the wrong part of the problem?
Badger52
10-21-2015, 13:30
Similarly, it is a program that is ripe for abuse and can be used for nefarious political purposes by immoral political and bureaucratic leaders. We have seen ample evidence of that recently.
So is it the tool that we should attack or the immoral/illegal acts of the perpetrators that should be attacked?
Think of it like the anti-gun arguments. Is it the gun (tool) or the perpetrator that is at fault. We don't advocate banning of guns to reduce the incidence of their misuse by criminals, why then ban the NSA collection of metadata?
Aren't we just focusing on the wrong part of the problem?The founders clearly recognized the fallacy of the human piece of the equation and articulated pretty clearly that such power shouldn't be vested in people, lest they conduct themselves less than honorably and humans, with power, tend to do that. They are, to the average citizen, untouchable - cloaked behind things that have been declared "legal" simply because a law was passed. (And take a gander at those that pass the laws - how's that transparency workin'? Has anyone successfully received a remedy from the individual conduct of Lois Lerner?)
To say ignore the law & concentrate instead on the fallible human (who is enabled by the law and individually now protected in their conduct) is to ask how one seeks remedy when a citizen is violated. If a law is passed that says, by secret court consent, police can enter your home & search your belongings, is it OK because it's a law? This starts getting into the "why can't we search your home, if you have nothing to hide?" Or, "...if you're not going to do bad things to people, why don't you want to register all your guns with us? What's the harm, hmmm?"
Having watched a fair bit of testimony on this stuff it really hasn't come out, including from the NSA, that massive collection of metadata has actually had a benefit. It may be that it's more expensive than any perceived benefit it yields - and they've now had plenty of time to determine that. They might be missing a piece of the time/opportunity equation, to wit: What else could they be doing that is really meaningful and helps protect Americans?
So I guess I am the odd man out on the legality/constitutionality/desirability of the NSA surveillance program.
I can certainly sympathize and even agree with the notion that this is governmental over-reach or it at least has the potential for that. I am not so certain that has been used to "spy" on American citizens for political gain, but in light of the IRS scandal, I certainly think that fear is justified.
But here's my issue: Collection of metadata is certainly an effective tool to mapping out terrorist networks in CONUS. Further, there is a need. Therefore, the NSA program is a potentially valuable tool.
Similarly, it is a program that is ripe for abuse and can be used for nefarious political purposes by immoral political and bureaucratic leaders. We have seen ample evidence of that recently.
So is it the tool that we should attack or the immoral/illegal acts of the perpetrators that should be attacked?
Think of it like the anti-gun arguments. Is it the gun (tool) or the perpetrator that is at fault. We don't advocate banning of guns to reduce the incidence of their misuse by criminals, why then ban the NSA collection of metadata?
Aren't we just focusing on the wrong part of the problem?
IMO JT - "Collection of metadata is certainly an effective tool to mapping out terrorist networks in CONUS" The collection of digital Metadata is a great idea, but just as in COMINT/SIGINT of old school radio interception during say WWII, Vietnam to current. Let me put it this way, so we (UK) broke the enigma code machine. But didn't and don't have the foreign language linguistics to further break the language "Code" to understand the intercepted radio message to tell units or cities of up coming Nazi events. We had to much information to understand it. The same goes with the Metadata. I bet we collect so much BS out there, that we can't go throw it. As NSA Whistleblower William Binney ( over 3 decades as an employee) stated, "NSA mass surveillance programs have become so engorged with data that they are no longer effective, losing vital intelligence in the fray."
http://hir.harvard.edu/archives/10382
IMO our Government was doing BS behind those Closed doors of the by Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court and its "Lawyers". Executive Order 12333 (http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/codification/executive-order/12333.html)--United States intelligence activities. Is the driving force that governs all U.S. Intel activities. Everyone in the IC and that helps with the IC and/or looks at U.S. Persons (https://www.nsa.gov/about/faqs/oversight.shtml)pretty much get tested yearly on this EO. Now because of Snowden even more likely.
AND YES it is a program that is ripe for abuse and WAS used for nefarious political purposes by immoral political and bureaucratic leaders as shown in the Data released by Snowden. Even with that, Snowden is still a POS for releasing the capabilities of the USG and the NSA has to the world. That part makes him IMO a HUGE POS that should die for what he did. Just talk to people within the IC - Intel Community; their lives at work hard are now harder, not because of policies, but because everyone is running scared now because of Snowden's actions.
Trapper John
10-22-2015, 07:30
IMO JT - "Collection of metadata is certainly an effective tool to mapping out terrorist networks in CONUS" The collection of digital Metadata is a great idea, but just as in COMINT/SIGINT of old school radio interception during say WWII, Vietnam to current. Let me put it this way, so we (UK) broke the enigma code machine. But didn't and don't have the foreign language linguistics to further break the language "Code" to understand the intercepted radio message to tell units or cities of up coming Nazi events. We had to much information to understand it. The same goes with the Metadata. I bet we collect so much BS out there, that we can't go throw it. As NSA Whistleblower William Binney ( over 3 decades as an employee) stated, "NSA mass surveillance programs have become so engorged with data that they are no longer effective, losing vital intelligence in the fray."
http://hir.harvard.edu/archives/10382
IMO our Government was doing BS behind those Closed doors of the by Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court and its "Lawyers". Executive Order 12333 (http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/codification/executive-order/12333.html)--United States intelligence activities. Is the driving force that governs all U.S. Intel activities. Everyone in the IC and that helps with the IC and/or looks at U.S. Persons (https://www.nsa.gov/about/faqs/oversight.shtml)pretty much get tested yearly on this EO. Now because of Snowden even more likely.
AND YES it is a program that is ripe for abuse and WAS used for nefarious political purposes by immoral political and bureaucratic leaders as shown in the Data released by Snowden. Even with that, Snowden is still a POS for releasing the capabilities of the USG and the NSA has to the world. That part makes him IMO a HUGE POS that should die for what he did. Just talk to people within the IC - Intel Community; their lives at work hard are now harder, not because of policies, but because everyone is running scared now because of Snowden's actions.
Very good :lifter I really like the enigma code analogy. I run in to that problem all the time - entirely too much data to distill down into meaningful information that can be communicated to others.
The feedback I get from the IC is exactly the same as you said wrt to Snowden. And these guys are very honorable men and women that I am certain would never cross the line into abuse of power.
That being said, Okie and Badger, you two bring up the human side of the problem and make a very compelling case that is hard to argue against. I am reminded of the very wise admonition of Benjamin Franklin "A society that is willing to sacrifice its liberty for its security deserves neither and will soon lose both."
I see this whole discussion as an example of the conflicts that are created by the rapid advancement of technologies and our struggle to integrate their use into society for good. Oppenheimer opined on that point after the atomic bomb was developed.
Great discussion. But in any case, TS, I still say Lil' Eddie is a self serving POS! :p
WarriorDiplomat
10-22-2015, 14:55
AND YES it is a program that is ripe for abuse and WAS used for nefarious political purposes by immoral political and bureaucratic leaders as shown in the Data released by Snowden. Even with that, Snowden is still a POS for releasing the capabilities of the USG and the NSA has to the world. That part makes him IMO a HUGE POS that should die for what he did. Just talk to people within the IC - Intel Community; their lives at work hard are now harder, not because of policies, but because everyone is running scared now because of Snowden's actions.[/QUOTE]
I can't agree with the Patriot act, especially twitters twits of every US citizen being stored at the library of congress for what purpose??? to manipulate election topics?, there are analytic programs designed for marketing to manipulate sales by targeting consumer habits and interests hence the ads on websites. What stops a program such as this being used to target Americans on behalf of national security? we Americans should be very afraid it only takes one Stalin type to abuse the power just handed out in that damn act.
You and I both know the IC has been shitting the proverbial bed for years, corrupted information that have led to both failed policy and failed application. The CENTCOM debacle is but a tip of the iceberg in my experience and look what has happened as a result? Russia. What was GWOT to these people a ticket to unlimited budgets to build their organizations? A test to see where are military needed improvement to upgrade equipment? Congress doesn't release taxpayer money to fund wars without the support of its people. The IC needed this to happen the cards were due to fall in the house the bureaucracy is too much and too many fingers altering reports for personal agendas.
WE have to be able to hold our elected officials and government organizations accountable for improper abuses of its power and drop the hammer.
I can't agree with the Patriot act, especially twitters twits of every US citizen being stored at the library of congress for what purpose??? to manipulate election topics?, there are analytic programs designed for marketing to manipulate sales by targeting consumer habits and interests hence the ads on websites. What stops a program such as this being used to target Americans on behalf of national security? we Americans should be very afraid it only takes one Stalin type to abuse the power just handed out in that damn act.
This program is free and yes many use it for Political Purposes just for elections and metrics of Americans.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKhYGRpbwOc
This program is free and yes many use it for Political Purposes just for elections and metrics of Americans.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKhYGRpbwOc
MG,
Here's a tutorial for NXL for a "real-world" sociology class that demonstrates how to import and manipulate data.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp7VXgvVAPg
PS users should keep in mind the sources of the information used in these analytics are 100% open source and available to ANYONE, foreign and domestic. It highlights the vulnerabilities of social media.
frostfire
10-23-2015, 08:08
That's tinfoil indeed. In that topic, I would say Victor Cherkashin methodology is more suited to exploit EGO vulnerability of someone like Snowden.
I'm with Trapper John (and th3j35t3r ). Snowden is a self-serving POS
OKay John.. This is my thinking over this.. Some we all of Anna Chapman and he 9 OTHER FRIENDS. How she worked and whom she WORKS for. So let me throw this out there, Lindsay Mills, so the Lovely Edward Snowden's GF. You seen her??
https://www.google.com/search?q=Edward+Snowden+girlfriend&biw=1920&bih=1037&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CFQQsARqFQoTCPLq-v_T0sgCFcqmHgodqZAJDg
So let me put on my Foil Tin Hat to explain this. SO FSB (SVR) likely has people into many different USG Agencies. We all know that, look at the 2010 bust of the 10 to 12 Russians with Anna Chapman here in the USA and overseas. Not really that hard to slap a decent looking girl onto Snowden, which I say did happen. So through elicitation and SEX, she tells him what is NEEDED to be done. Go down that road however you want John.
John I'm on the thinking that Julian Assange was some kind of "Cut-Out" or Intermediary of some kind. If you go back and look at how and when Julian Assange DID different THINGS, IMO it follows the old style as described by Anatoliy Golitsyn in his books. Yes, maybe a FAR REACH, but shit Anna Chapman and her friends did it. Hell that is where the American TV Show came from.. haha Putin has gone back to the Schooling that he was raised on, KGB Style. Now the Russian Federation has been going back to this old style for some time. Nothing new here.
Haha.. love it, "his attorneys." Glenn Greenwald (Yes a Attorney) and Laura Poitras are two POS IMO. Both hate the USG, maybe for a good reason, that they hide in foreign countries.
Glenn Greenwald wrote an article in The Solon on Snowden, where he first started out, earlier this year.
So POS Snowden's Hot GF handled him? Maybe or likely??
So Julian Assange "Cut-Out" or Intermediary? Maybe or likely??
Badger52
10-23-2015, 09:02
In that topic, I would say Victor Cherkashin methodology...Now there's an interesting gent.
It seems Eric Holder now agree's with TS original assessment that Snowden did a public service by revealing the excessive data collection, conducted by Intelligence community on US citizens.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/30/politics/axe-files-axelrod-eric-holder/
Holder needed to agree when it was right to do so. I like how politicians grow spines once they retire or resign.
frostfire
09-04-2017, 23:28
It seems Eric Holder now agree's with TS original assessment that Snowden did a public service by revealing the excessive data collection, conducted by Intelligence community on US citizens.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/30/politics/axe-files-axelrod-eric-holder/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHbrOg092GA
Sounds like tin foil or disgruntled former employee, but if Kevin Shipp had an accident, that won't be accidental!
Not surprisingly, the deep state does not recognize party lines
Team Sergeant
09-05-2017, 08:06
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHbrOg092GA
Sounds like tin foil or disgruntled former employee, but if Kevin Shipp had an accident, that won't be accidental!
Not surprisingly, the deep state does not recognize party lines
Now we're getting news from youtube?
Another F5 source.
I'm going to start deleting bad sources and posts. You've been warned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHbrOg092GA
Sounds like tin foil or disgruntled former employee, but if Kevin Shipp had an accident, that won't be accidental!
Not surprisingly, the deep state does not recognize party lines
He was run off due to issues. He is not a credible source. You get an F for this post.....
JamesIkanov
09-05-2017, 19:45
I know nothing of the above youtube link, but saw this since it had been bumped and thought this might present an interesting update to the conversation topic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center
Hopefully not too much subject drift, but it seems like exactly the kind of thing the leaks Snowden made might be intended to prevent, if one reads into the exact technical specifics of what sorts of, and how much information it can proccess and retain, especially given this nugget:
"In August 2012, The New York Times published short documentaries by independent filmmakers entitled The Program,[8] based on interviews with a whistleblower named William Binney. The project had been designed for foreign signals intelligence (SIGINT) collection but, Binney alleged, after the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, controls that limited unintentional collection of data pertaining to U.S. citizens were removed, prompting concerns by him and others that the actions were illegal and unconstitutional. Binney alleged that the Bluffdale facility was designed to store a broad range of domestic communications for data mining without warrants"
Team Sergeant
09-06-2017, 12:57
I know nothing of the above youtube link, but saw this since it had been bumped and thought this might present an interesting update to the conversation topic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center
Hopefully not too much subject drift, but it seems like exactly the kind of thing the leaks Snowden made might be intended to prevent, if one reads into the exact technical specifics of what sorts of, and how much information it can proccess and retain, especially given this nugget:
"In August 2012, The New York Times published short documentaries by independent filmmakers entitled The Program,[8] based on interviews with a whistleblower named William Binney. The project had been designed for foreign signals intelligence (SIGINT) collection but, Binney alleged, after the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, controls that limited unintentional collection of data pertaining to U.S. citizens were removed, prompting concerns by him and others that the actions were illegal and unconstitutional. Binney alleged that the Bluffdale facility was designed to store a broad range of domestic communications for data mining without warrants"
And now wiki.......... :rolleyes:
"If it's on the internet it must be true!"
Ben Franklin
Ben Franklin NEVER posted anything to the internet that wasn't true.......
Forbes is a much better site for questioning because they write about shit that impacts peoples money. Forbes isn't well known for buying into conspiracy theories or going donw rtabbit holes that will drive away their readers/investors...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/07/24/blueprints-of-nsa-data-center-in-utah-suggest-its-storage-capacity-is-less-impressive-than-thought/#b6e5c1a74575
PedOncoDoc
09-06-2017, 14:04
And now wiki.......... :rolleyes:
"If it's on the internet it must be true!"
Ben Franklin
The data center is here (in my AO), and in use per a family friend (would rate this A2). Some locals have been pushing for a vote to cut off the water supply to shut it down, and stickers/signs are posted around the area to drum up further support.
Local news article (2015) on the subject is here (http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=2118801&itype=CMSID), and a quick google search will find a lot more articles, although many are from conspiracy theory sites.
ETA: It is not clear to me what exactly is being collected at this facility.
bblhead672
09-06-2017, 14:38
The data center is here (in my AO), and in use per a family friend (would rate this A2). Some locals have been pushing for a vote to cut off the water supply to shut it down, and stickers/signs are posted around the area to drum up further support.
Local news article (2015) on the subject is here (http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=2118801&itype=CMSID), and a quick google search will find a lot more articles, although many are from conspiracy theory sites.
Back when I used to watch network tv, I thought the show "Person of Interest" was entertaining, yet far fetched. That is until someone asked me if I knew about the Fusion Centers. It ain't very entertaining anymore, more like a warning.
ETA: It is not clear to me what exactly is being collected at this facility.
I bet it's data. :p
PedOncoDoc
09-06-2017, 16:36
I bet it's data. :p
:p
I should've been more clear in stating that I do not know if they are collecting data at this center on US citizens as implied by many sites.
rsdengler
09-06-2017, 17:19
:p
I should've been more clear in stating that I do not know if they are collecting data at this center on US citizens as implied by many sites.
LOL....But you never know, they may be collecting DNA and growing human/alien beings...just saying....:D
miclo18d
09-06-2017, 19:15
The problem has never been collecting the data, the problem is sorting the data and sharing the data. (e.g. 9/11 info was known, not shared, and not analyzed or at least not correctly) Databases are very cumbersome and the more data you input the slower they move.
Data is information, it's worthless if you can't sort it.
Intelligence is information that has been processed, coalesced, analyzed and disemenated.
I remember getting INTSUMs of our AOR that were cut and paste jobs of info we sent to the 2 shop just days prior! No analysis, just regurgitated! Apoplectic is an understatement.
Team Sergeant
09-07-2017, 08:31
Anyone ever wonder "why" the NSA is relocated to Utah? :munchin I've no doubt why.
PedOncoDoc
09-07-2017, 11:21
Anyone ever wonder "why" the NSA is relocated to Utah? :munchin I've no doubt why.
To keep an eye on all of those crazy Mormons? :D
Mustang Man
09-07-2017, 12:42
Anyone ever wonder "why" the NSA is relocated to Utah? I've no doubt why.
FBI, CIA, and NSA pay extra attention to and favor Mormon recruits. This is due to a small but recognizable Mormon population within the 3 letter agencies, plus they typically have steller clean records.
Don't forget we had a Mormon former CIA agent Evan McMullin, running for President in 2016 as an independent from Utah.
Team Sergeant
09-07-2017, 15:16
To keep an eye on all of those crazy Mormons? :D
Close, to recruit mormons to run the NSA........ they don't talk.
I'd bet my life savings that the main religion inside the walls of the NSA is mormon.
How I love the "religious" zealots.
Go Devil
09-07-2017, 16:07
Close, to recruit mormons to run the NSA........ they don't talk.
I'd bet my life savings that the main religion inside the walls of the NSA is mormon.
How I love the "religious" zealots.
Not to mention, Utah is a "Domestic Terrorist" stronghold.
Team Sergeant
09-08-2017, 12:09
Not to mention, Utah is a "Domestic Terrorist" stronghold.
What flavor of "Domestic Terrorists" does Utah hold?
Animal8526
09-08-2017, 14:04
What flavor of "Domestic Terrorists" does Utah hold?
I'm guessing, from the .gov perspective...
gun owning, anti tax, pro small govt veteran/survivalist types.
You know... people who don't want to be, and aren't easy to keep in line.
PedOncoDoc
09-08-2017, 16:47
I'm guessing, from the .gov perspective...
gun owning, anti tax, pro small govt veteran/survivalist types.
You know... people who don't want to be, and aren't easy to keep in line.
I think the Bundy clan also has roots in Utah. :munchin
I think the Bundy clan also has roots in Utah. :munchin
Al and Peggy are related to Ted? :confused:
Pat