The rhetoric is winding up in Ukraine. Got plans for the weekend?

[LarryW]

From the Daily Mail:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2612817/Putin-issues-new-threat-against-Ukraine-as.html

With Australia sending in a law enforcement "contingent" to protect the crash site of MH-17 this could make for an interesting weekend.

I know, let's all just go to Martha's Vineyard and watch WW-3 on TV.

[CSB]

Why aren't the Dutch sending in the Dutch Army, since they had a significant loss of life from the assault, are a NATO member, and are geographically close, they should take the lead to team up with the Ukraine government and seize the territory.

Oh wait, the Dutch will have to schedule it for a union vote.

[Old Dog New Trick]

I wonder if they'll bring guns?

Or is this a mission of peace and understanding?

Anyone drunk and stupid enough to shoot down a commercial airliner is dumb enough to take prisoners (aka hostages) in return for a Ukrainian ceasefire.

[JJ_BPK]

Why aren't the Dutch sending in the Dutch Army, since they had a significant loss of life from the assault, are a NATO member, and are geographically close, they should take the lead to team up with the Ukraine government and seize the territory.

Oh wait, the Dutch will have to schedule it for a union vote.

Maybe they are??



(Reuters) - Australia will send 100 additional police and some defense force personnel to Europe to join a planned Dutch-led international security force to secure the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 crash site, Prime Minister Tony Abbott said on Friday.

The Australian Federal Police (AFP) officers, some of whom will be armed, will join a contingent of 90 AFP officers already in London waiting for a deal with Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko to be approved by Ukraine's parliament.

link: (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/25/us-ukraine-crisis-australia-idUSKBN0FU0JM20140725)

[RomanCandle]

By the looks of it they'll have to watch their backs with the Ukrainian military far more that with the Ukrainian rebels. Seems like the rebels have done a lot more to assist the OSCE investigators and the other internationals who appear to have been hindered far more by indiscriminate Government fire in the area than by any rebel actions.

An international force to secure the area would need to be authorised by the UN Security Council and we all know how effective they are in conflict zones. The Europeans would likely have a bit of a different view of coming into conflict with the Russians than the US would. Ties between Europe and Russia have become stronger over the last decade with a lot of economic dependence on each other so NATO involvement on the Euro side might not fly over this issue so to speak.

[The Reaper]

By the looks of it they'll have to watch their backs with the Ukrainian military far more that with the Ukrainian rebels. Seems like the rebels have done a lot more to assist the OSCE investigators and the other internationals who appear to have been hindered far more by indiscriminate Government fire in the area than by any rebel actions.

Source, please.

TR

[akv]

Update at 4:05 p.m. ET.

The U.S. State Department has released satellite images it says back up the assertion by Washington and Kiev that Russian forces are firing artillery into eastern Ukraine in support of separatists.

In a four-page document titled Evidence of Russian Shelling into Ukraine, released Sunday, blast marks from rocket launches in Russia and craters in Ukraine can be seen, the State Department says.

The document also shows "self-propelled artillery only found in Russian military units, on the Russian side of the border, oriented in the direction of a Ukrainian military unit within Ukraine."

It also states that: "Russia-backed separatists have used heavy artillery, provided by Russia, in attacks on Ukrainian forces from inside Ukraine."

The images are attributed to the U.S. Director of National Intelligence and were taken between July 21 and July 26, officials say — days after the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.

According to The Associated Press, they "claim to show multiple rocket launchers fired at Ukrainian forces from within Ukraine and from Russian soil. One image shows dozens of craters around a Ukrainian military unit and rockets that can travel more than 7 miles."

The release of the satellite images comes after the U.S. said last week that it had obtained "new evidence" that Russian forces were firing artillery across the border, a charge that Kiev has made repeatedly and loudly in recent days.

It also comes as Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry reportedly agreed in a telephone conversation Sunday on the importance of a cease-fire in eastern Ukraine, according to Reuters.

In a Russian Foreign Ministry statement carried by the news agency, Moscow describes the crisis in Ukraine as an "internal conflict."

A readout of the conversation issued by the State Department says Kerry "urged Foreign Minister Lavrov to stop the flow of heavy weapons and rocket and artillery fire from Russia into Ukraine, and to begin to contribute to deescalating the conflict."

The secretary of state "did not accept Foreign Minister Lavrov's denial that heavy weapons from Russia were contributing to the conflict," it said.


http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/07/27/335829570/u-s-satellite-images-show-russian-rockets-hitting-ukraine

[RomanCandle]

Source, please.

TR

Here are two stories from MSM.

http://news.yahoo.com/first-mh17-victim-identified-grieving-relatives-visit-035913569.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/world/europe/civilian-death-toll-rise-in-ukraine.html?_r=0

One More: http://m.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/mh17/mh17-investigation-team-prevented-again-from-reaching-ukraine-crash-site/story-fno88it0-1227005362570?nk=527b1ff2bc109836e1afe65b042b5b4e

RT (yes I know) has myriad footage of residential areas in east Ukraine being shelled and civilian casualties, where the non- combatant death toll stands at over 1100. So I would think it unreasonable to deduce that the eastern Ukrainians would be bombing their own res areas.

I accept that many here may think that RT is merely a Russian mouthpiece. I would argue that the MSM we have here in the west is just as much so.

[RomanCandle]

Why do they need UN permission and not just permission of the nation. Russia says they are not involved so it is a Ukrainian matter.

In the context of drawing a foreign nation into an internal conflict that foreign nation would probably not want to make any moves that could be seen as provocative and so would in all likelihood seek a UN Security Council Resolution. It would appear that no one in Europe is actively seeking any potential escalation with Russia and as of now there is absolutely no evidence forensic or otherwise linking either Russia or the rebels to the shooting down of MH17. They may say that they see it as a Ukrainian matter but clearly the Russians have interests there just as the USA feels it does thus the Dutch would surely weigh that up very carefully before acting without a UN Security Council Resolution.

[SpNkid]

Maybe somebody will be interested in the opinion of Donbass civilians about who's killing them. English subtitles.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/NE18iPQ1Euk Hard. Very 18+.

Very typical episode of air strike on dwelling houses in Snizhne city, which occurred on the eve of the crash with Boeing, in almost the same area. It strongly motivates to shoot down any aircraft in the sky, if there is a technical possibility, and if to assume that Boeing was shot down by rebels.

Probably this film will soon disappear from YouTube.

[RomanCandle]

Thanks for the video, there seems to be a lot of footage that has disappeared from Utube.

A sad and horrible situation all round. There is a lot of rhetoric from leaders for political effect that should possibly be a little more restrained and not enough appreciation for what is happening. This sort of thing wont appear on any MSM but then it would appear that they have abandoned the tenets of unbiased and impartial journalism.

[The Reaper]

Here are two stories from MSM.

http://news.yahoo.com/first-mh17-victim-identified-grieving-relatives-visit-035913569.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/world/europe/civilian-death-toll-rise-in-ukraine.html?_r=0

One More: http://m.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/mh17/mh17-investigation-team-prevented-again-from-reaching-ukraine-crash-site/story-fno88it0-1227005362570?nk=527b1ff2bc109836e1afe65b042b5b4e

RT (yes I know) has myriad footage of residential areas in east Ukraine being shelled and civilian casualties, where the non- combatant death toll stands at over 1100. So I would think it unreasonable to deduce that the eastern Ukrainians would be bombing their own res areas.

I accept that many here may think that RT is merely a Russian mouthpiece. I would argue that the MSM we have here in the west is just as much so.

As the Russians are among the likely perpetrators of this dastardly act, and have a history of prevarication and obstruction, I would not give much credence to what they say about this case. RT is merely the Kremlin's propaganda outlet in the affair, much like Izvestia and Pravda.

I think the evidence offered thus far by non-involved nations speaks much more directly to the Russian or their "separatist" partners having committed this mass murder.

MH17 was brought down by a vehicle mounted Russian air defense missile.

This missile was fired from "separatist" controlled airspace very close to the Russian border. Other aircraft have been shot down in the same area in the days leading up to the MH17 shootdown. The "separatists took full credit for the earlier SAM attacks.

The "separatist" leadership claimed responsibility for the shootdown until it was demonstrated to be a civilian airliner, at which point they attempted to disavow involvement and redirect accusations elsewhere.

The media has shown an SA-11 launcher with two expended missiles on a transporter leaving eastern Ukraine and crossing into Russian territory only a few days after the incident.

Voice intercepts demonstrate "separatist" involvement in the crime and the subsequent coverup attempts.

"Separatists" attempted to block media and investigator access to the crash site for several days, while simultaneously looting the personal belongings of the victims. Evidence was likely taken or destroyed in this time frame. International correspendents and investigators (outside of Russia) have been quite clear about who has obstructed their access, and it was not the Ukranians.

These are not the actions of the Ukranian state, and there is blood on the hands of the Russian leadership in this. The Russians and their clients will kill as many Ukranians as necessary to achieve their ends.

TR

[SpNkid]

RT is merely the Kremlin's propaganda outlet in the affair, much like Izvestia and Pravda.
Of course, it is. But this is nothing new or outrageous. I don’t know of a truly independent media. Any media resource promotes someone, a particular point of view. Even the one who calls himself the most independent.

I think the evidence offered thus far by non-involved nations speaks much more directly to the Russian or their "separatist" partners having committed this mass murder.
But what is this "evidence"? Let's look at them in more detail.

MH17 was brought down by a vehicle mounted Russian air defense missile.
Who approves it and what evidences he claims? On what basis the following words quoted: «Russian», «air defense missile» in relation to the fallen Вoeing? As I know, nobody approved that the cause of the accident was not air-to-air missile, onboard bomb or Ukrainian air defense missile. I have heard that the cause of the accident was the sudden decompression. And not something more, yet.

This missile was fired from "separatist" controlled airspace
It is a controversial statement. Here some quotes of the press service of the Russian Ministry of Defense:
“Part of the route of Malaysian Boeing 777 and the place of his fall fall into the effective area two batteries Ukrainian air defense missile system (ADMS) long-range S-200 batteries and three medium-range SAM "Buk-M1".
"Russian radio equipment for July 17 fixed radar work 9s18 "Dome" batteries SAM "Buk-M1", stationed near the village of Styla (30 km south of Donetsk)".
"Technical features of the complex air defense "Buk-M1" allow to exchange of information on air between the batteries to the same division. "Thus, the launch of missiles could also be done with all the batteries stationed in the village Avdiyivka (8 km north of Donetsk) or Gruzsko-Zaryanskoe (25 km east of Donetsk)".
"These facts are fully confirmed by means of objective control".
Interesting briefing of Russian Ministry of Defense with translation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tQlRBC0MEI
Textual materials to briefing (w/o translation):
http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=11970771@egNews
I understand your skepticism to these sources, but at the briefing was voiced a number of questions to the Ukrainian authorities, which simply ignored. Also stated that all necessary data for objective control passed to all interested parties. However, reactions to these data are also not yet sounded.

very close to the Russian border.
48.126145, 38.628763. About 35 km. The flight took place towards the Russian border. At the same time the plane fell out of plumb, but by glide path, then it began to fall even further from the border. Maybe even a few dozen kilometers from the crash site. Maybe even before entering the airspace over the territory controlled by the separatists. And it is not very big. Here is the current map: http://cassad.net/?do=warmarker

Other aircraft have been shot down in the same area in the days leading up to the MH17 shootdown. The "separatists took full credit for the earlier SAM attacks.
Previous plane, you mentioned, according to the authorities, carried cargo parachute landing on point object from a height, as I recall, about 6000 meters, so announcement of height is unlikely true. For this task, so more suitable height, which is readily available for MANPADS. This means that the incident does not prove the presence of the rebels SAM "Buk".
The rebels and their leaders have never declared that they have SAM "Buk".
Available on this subject (only one, and not from leader) mention is a retelling gossip "I heard that the guy saw."
On the contrary, the Attorney General of Ukraine directly told the president that the rebels do not have and can not have SAM "Buk" and C-200.
Google confirms it's easy.

The "separatist" leadership claimed responsibility for the shootdown until it was demonstrated to be a civilian airliner, at which point they attempted to disavow involvement and redirect accusations elsewhere.
The "separatist" leadership did not claimed responsibility for this shootdown. All available claims belongs to unknowns, who named themselves in net as rebels and to its numerous reposters. Even if such claims from real rebels were, need to understand the following: one of the rebels groups saw that the big plane falling from the sky. Knowing that all aircraft in the area belongs to the Ukrainian military (airspace was officially closed, details with big heights were open few people knew), the only thing that can come to these people mind, - “we knocked Ukrainian cargo plane again!”. News flies in the network. Other rebels groups is also confirmed. Maximum repost.

The media has shown an SA-11 launcher with two expended missiles on a transporter leaving eastern Ukraine and crossing into Russian territory only a few days after the incident.
Suppose I claim that it was the Belarusian air defense system "Buk" illegally arrived in Poland and then escaped back to Belarus.
Videos and photos cannot refute my statement.

Voice intercepts demonstrate "separatist" involvement in the crime and the subsequent coverup attempts.
Edited assorty created one day before the disaster. Personally seen the analysis, already tired to look for links, maybe later.

"Separatists" attempted to block media and investigator access to the crash site for several days, while simultaneously looting the personal belongings of the victims. Evidence was likely taken or destroyed in this time frame. International correspendents and investigators (outside of Russia) have been quite clear about who has obstructed their access, and it was not the Ukranians.
Rebels already hoarse, calling any experts, not knowing what to do with the corpses in the heat for a long time. Ukrainian army bombed and shelled the neighborhood, despite the criticisms of European politicians.

These are not the actions of the Ukranian state, and there is blood on the hands of the Russian leadership in this. The Russians and their clients will kill as many Ukranians as necessary to achieve their ends.
It is no secret that on the world stage there is a big game. We know the obvious goals of all parties. It is the future location of the border between East and West, and about whose energy resources Europe will buy in the next decades. And in general, the price of the issue is whether the U.S. will allow to appear (or reborn) real competitor to itself.
Ukraine - just one of the locations of the game. As Syria or Libya. And here, too, is war. One of the forms of this war, we are now witnessing. I'm talking about the information war.
A characteristic feature of this information war is the following fact: Player with a more powerful media capabilities (in this case, I mean pro-Western forces), allows himself to just throw allegations, not bothering to ensure their probative.
At the same time, any argument on the other hand are simply ignored or, at best, derided as knowingly delusional in advance, without examination.

[RomanCandle]

I respectfully put that the "evidence" against Russia or "Separatists" in this case is sketchy at best. Satellite pics taken from Digital Globe. No actual evidence other than what the Dept of State posts on twitter. Of course they keep saying they have hard evidence but Jen Psaki and Marie Harf keep defaulting to social media.

Other reports have also placed SA11 "Buk" systems belonging to Ukraine in the areas involved. Why would they be there considering that the "Rebels" don't have so much as a Cessna among them? "Rebels" surely did shoot down other lower flying attack planes but with SA11 or manpad? The so called Separatist controlled areas appear to be quite dynamic with no clear lines drawn with Ukraine forces in very close proximity.

As to RT being the Kremlin's propaganda outlet I would put it forward that they have been a lot more objective than any Western media who has vigorously pushed the US State Dept version at the exclusion of any other possibility or even given any airtime to what the other side has said.

Sources from the US and Ukraine can in no way be considered impartial. The Maidan regime change revolution was actively encouraged by the US State Dept with not a single word for calm or restraint (except aimed at the then government) coming from that quarter during vicious attacks against the the police etc followed by a massive amount of rhetoric from State Dept mouthpieces, Victoria Nuland, Jen Psaki etc during subsequent anti Right-Sector protests after the overthrow.

Hereafter the State Dept/ MSM have jumped all over the tragedy of MH 17 delivering swift judgement by MSM/ Social Media before any investigations have been completed spreading rumors of tampering with the recording device by "Rebels" or smuggling of said devices to Russia etc. One cant help but think it speaks volumes that they have not once raised voice regarding the horrific loss of civilian life perpetrated by the Ukrainian military. Not once. The media has unquestioningly run with each sensationalist rumor providing precious little hard evidence and completely ignoring elements of this conflict that might bring he US governments real interests into question with the public. It brings that saying to mind: ":Never let a good crisis go to waste."

I'm struggling to see how a group of leaders can be so denigrated by so many for their willingness to trample on peoples constitutional rights. Lie to voters, or leave an ambassador to his fate in Benghazi yet rally so much support for certain stances. Does having a common enemy serve a broader political purpose?

I would also disagree that the Russians are responsible for killing Ukrainians. On the contrary there is substantial footage similar to the extremely graphic and disturbing video posted that more than suggests it is the Kiev controlled Ukrainian military who are perpetrating the killing of Estern Ukrainian civilians. Obviously people supporting them tacitly or otherwise share in that responsibility.

1:21.07 of this video says a lot as does the following:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-response-to-leaked-call-confirms-useu-regime-change-plot-in-ukraine/5367968

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

[The Reaper]

Good article on the veracity of RT.

TR

Mouthpieces for the Kremlin's propaganda channel aren't brave

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/masha-gessen-mouthpieces-for-the-kremlins-propaganda-channel-arent-brave/2014/07/29/83fecf2e-1449-11e4-98ee-daea85133bc9_story.html

By Masha Gessen July 29 at 8:28 AM

Masha Gessen is a Russian American journalist and the author of "The Man Without a Face: The Unlikely Rise of Vladimir Putin."

When a journalist admits that he has been lying to the public for years, this usually results in a flurry of media coverage castigating the guilty party, along with a dose of self-flagellation by his employer for having failed to notice the lies sooner. When this wave of humiliating publicity ends, the offending journalist is allowed to slink away in shame.

But sometimes journalists who admit having lied for years get to be heroes for a few days, garnering praise for their honesty and bravery. These public liars get to depart the story with their heads raised high and every reason to expect to continue a career in journalism.

Take Sara Firth, a London-based reporter who resigned from the Kremlin's propaganda channel RT this month. Announcing herresignation on Twitter, she wrote, "I have huge respect for many on the team, but I'm for the truth." Or Liz Wahl, Firth's former colleague in the network's U.S. bureau, who announced her resignation on-air a few months earlier: "I cannot be part of a network funded by the Russian government which whitewashes the actions of [Vladimir] Putin. I'm proud to be an American, and believe in disseminating the truth." In the early days of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, another U.S.-based American employee of the station, Abby Martin, rebelled on-air without resigning. "Just because I work here, for RT, doesn't mean I don't have editorial independence, and I can't stress enough how strongly I am against any military intervention in sovereign nations' affairs." She was not telling the truth: Being employed by the Kremlin's mouthpiece most certainly means she does not have editorial independence.

For most viewers, the station formerly known as Russia Today is just that channel you seem to get in any hotel room in the world. Its graphics are sleek, even if the staging can appear amateurish, and its rhetoric is an unlikely mix of the standard leftist critique of Western governments with heaps of praise for Putin and his allies. For young college graduates from English-speaking countries, RT offers an opportunity to get a well-paying first job and to get in front of a camera faster than they could ever hope to achieve at any conventional Western television operation. In the hierarchy of television operations funded by authoritarian states, RT is the lowest rung of the ladder: After a few years there, these young Americans and Brits might hope to step up to Chinese English-language broadcasting and eventually, perhaps, climb all the way to Al Jazeera.

Russia Today was founded in 2006, just as the West's stubborn infatuation with Putin finally waned. The Kremlin wanted an outlet to counter a growing wave of criticism as it fully reverted to authoritarianism. The goal was to project a portrait of Russia as a different sort of democracy while pointing out the failures of Western powers, such as income inequality, racism and abuse of power. Native English speakers were essential to the project. A couple of years ago, Russia Today recast itself as RT so that viewers who had accidentally stumbled on the channel wouldn't immediately know whose propaganda they were watching. Indeed, one could tune in during an interview with, say, an ACLU lawyer talking about National Security Agency surveillance, and watch for a few minutes before realizing that the channel was broadcasting a very skewed perspective on the world.

As the chasm between Russia and the West widened, RT's reports became more bizarre. In December, for example, it aired a half-hour report in which it was suggested that the U.S. invasion of Iraq was the result of a "larger plan" for the creation of a "greater Israel." This month, it ran a half-hour documentary that claimed the United States was an even worse place for gay people than Russia - and also homosexual relationships carry "risks of mental and physical health problems and other social pathologies." And, of course, as far back as December, it was portraying the Ukrainian protest movement as pawns of the Europeans who wanted the country's legitimate elected government overthrown. This month, YouTube blocked RT's news stream, apparently after a series of complaints about inaccuracies in its reporting from Ukraine.

Lying is not a side effect of what RT does; it is the channel's heart. "Every single day we are lying and finding sexier ways to do it," Firth told BuzzFeed upon her departure from the channel. She described the ma¬nipu¬la¬tion of reporting to suggest that the Ukrainian government was responsible for shooting down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 on July 17. Inan interview with the Guardian, she said, "It was the most shockingly obvious misinformation, and it got to the point where I couldn't defend it anymore."

In other words, the lies in which she participated for five years at the channel were bad but not bad enough to quit over - but lying about the airliner was just too much. It makes sense that, with all that RT experience, she would try to spin her departure as an act of bravery and standing up for the truth. What makes no sense, however, is why real journalists would let ex-RT staff get away with this narrative.