View Full Version : Observations and Advice from a QP/Cadre
WarriorDiplomat
07-15-2014, 08:31
Gents,
These are observations I have made, take heed and adjust accordingly if applicable.
Many of us career GB's are passionate true believers, we want the best soldiers for the Regiment we are not out to get soldiers we want the talents and skills you bring. Understand we are here to select, train and assess attributes and skills that are either suitable or not suitable for Special Forces, our loyalty is to the Special Forces.
There are realities you must face such as those that are here for the wrong reason. Those that are here for the sole purpose of bragging rights, tabs, shooting people in the face, perceived lack of rules etc... are not true believers and not the model of why Green Berets are special. The Best Green Berets are those you have never heard of. There are E6's as well as SGM's that gained their rank and experience d uring GWOT kicking doors conducting DA, understand the application of Special Forces during the GWOT has been a corruption of our design and purpose. We went from being unique and special to door kicking, this is a misuse of our unique capabilities and should not be confused with our design and purpose.
Counterterrist units, Intelligence Units, Navy SOF, and other SOF units are not Special Forces they are Special Operations units. These units are Hyperconventional we are Unconventional they are better at what they specialize in not at what we do. In our area of expertise if a CounterTerrorism Unit were to attempt to kidnap, rescue or kill someone in our UW campaign area a UW unit would use it's underground sources for information, identify the intended targets and set traps for the CT force using deception tactics.
SOPC/SFPC has corrupted the SFAS selection process, part of the selection process is first drawing the right person to the job, the soldier would then through his own initiative and commitment prepare himself for SFAS. Once he arrives at Bragg the Selection course then tests the student through various events that are intended to push a soldier past his preparation training and peel back the onion of his character. Do not congratulate yourselves on getting selecting consider it a baby step into a much bigger world, selected does not mean you can "sham your way to a Green Beret" as one student stated.
We do not think you guys are funny when you write ridiculous crap on your bios this in our opinion is insight to your character and maturity.
Getting selected does not entitle you to an ego or a chip on your shoulder no matter what you are told. For every GB there are many others who are equal in ability and intelligence if not better with no desire to join Special Forces. Nothing we do is superhuman what we value above all else is the mission and the sense of brotherhood amongst like minded individuals. It is how we think and feel about what we do that seperates us from others, we are willing to tread into the unknown for an undetermined amount of time without accolades or recognition of any sort. We are loyal to our country and the people, we are more importantly loyal to the ideals of freedom "De Oppresson Liber" to liberate the oppressed is our motto and most of us believe in it.
The basics of Special Forces are contained in 3 phases, SUT, MOS, Robin Sage the rest is additional overblown training. The advanced schools do not make you a better Special Forces soldier they give you skills not talent. If you Master the basics and self educate the implied embedded skills you will be a great Green Beret. Their are alot of GB's who have never been to some of the advanced schools such as Sniper but know the skill better than those that have. It is your duty to be a true master of your MOS before you go to any advanced school. Going to HALO/HAHO, Scuba, Ranger, Sapper, Mountaineering etc....do not make you a competent Green Beret.
Read history, those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it. The history of Unconventional Warfare is smattered throughout world history. Learn to recognize what UW is and why it is effective.
NCO's and Officers coming through training are expected to conduct yourselves according to your rank. Your conduct influences 18X-rays both positive and negative. Your conduct lead these young men even if you don't want the responsibility it is there, so don't complain or make excuses. We are watching the example you are setting and we will hold you accountable for your lack of positive leadership.
Read this and understand the future of the Regiment is more important to us than your desire to join. Not all of you are wired for this career and life. We would prefer you X-rays get experience before coming here to be trained so that you can appreciate the value of leadership and learn about the Army.
Good luck to all of you.
Trapper John
07-15-2014, 08:43
:lifter
WD that's PEREFECT! You new guys, pay attention to what was just shared with you. The world is changing so pay attention!
WD, I have some HUMINT that I picked up yesterday and relates to this post that I will share with you elsewhere. ;)
WarriorDiplomat
07-15-2014, 08:53
:lifter
WD that's PEREFECT! You new guys, pay attention to what was just shared with you. The world is changing so pay attention!
WD, I have some HUMINT that I picked up yesterday and relates to this post that I will share with you elsewhere. ;)
Standing by TJ
Outstanding! Word for word, this should be part of the SF recruiting brochures.
striveseekfind
07-30-2014, 20:19
Gentlemen,
After reading through WD's post, it occurs to me that there may be a disconnect between the understanding that recruiters and their recruits have of what truly the mission and purpose of SF is. Many of the recruiters will not have known a day in the Army without the GWOT being waged. Not having any experience in SF, I can say that as an outsider I believe that the opinion and views of many uninformed individuals is that SF is a MI/DA unit that develops HUMINT and uses actionable intelligence to conduct raids. I have buddies from the Marines who were egregiously misconceived about not only USA SF, but Rangers as well.
When I was a youngster, I read "Special Forces: A Guided Tour of US Army Special Forces" and was inspired then to achieve a place within the brotherhood. Recently I read Dick Couch's book "Chosen Soldier". He followed 18X candidates throughout SOPC, SFAS, and the Q-Course. He placed emphasis on the unconventional warfare and FID missions, and how they are unique to SF and how important the purpose of these missions and these warriors are to our leaders and the options they have within an AO of exercising policy.
It boggles my mind that there are people who think that earning their Green Beret and Special Forces tab makes them a BAMF. I learned in the Marines that training is the easy part. Afterwards, there are no excuses, do-overs, resets, and no guarantee of food, sleep, comfort, or life. I am working toward getting an 18X contract. In my mind, getting selected only means you've demonstrated the ability to complete the Q-course. Earning the GB & SF tab means earning a place within the brotherhood and a spot on a detachment. Every day afterward that tab and that beret have to be earned, and it won't get any easier.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I see it from my end.
WarriorDiplomat
08-05-2014, 19:03
Gentlemen,
After reading through WD's post, it occurs to me that there may be a disconnect between the understanding that recruiters and their recruits have of what truly the mission and purpose of SF is. Many of the recruiters will not have known a day in the Army without the GWOT being waged. Not having any experience in SF, I can say that as an outsider I believe that the opinion and views of many uninformed individuals is that SF is a MI/DA unit that develops HUMINT and uses actionable intelligence to conduct raids. I have buddies from the Marines who were egregiously misconceived about not only USA SF, but Rangers as well.
When I was a youngster, I read "Special Forces: A Guided Tour of US Army Special Forces" and was inspired then to achieve a place within the brotherhood. Recently I read Dick Couch's book "Chosen Soldier". He followed 18X candidates throughout SOPC, SFAS, and the Q-Course. He placed emphasis on the unconventional warfare and FID missions, and how they are unique to SF and how important the purpose of these missions and these warriors are to our leaders and the options they have within an AO of exercising policy.
It boggles my mind that there are people who think that earning their Green Beret and Special Forces tab makes them a BAMF. I learned in the Marines that training is the easy part. Afterwards, there are no excuses, do-overs, resets, and no guarantee of food, sleep, comfort, or life. I am working toward getting an 18X contract. In my mind, getting selected only means you've demonstrated the ability to complete the Q-course. Earning the GB & SF tab means earning a place within the brotherhood and a spot on a detachment. Every day afterward that tab and that beret have to be earned, and it won't get any easier.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I see it from my end.
Excellent response you hit the nail on the head.
This viewpoint is what we are looking for coming through the Q-course.
Trapper John
08-06-2014, 06:29
Gentlemen,
After reading through WD's post, it occurs to me that there may be a disconnect between the understanding that recruiters and their recruits have of what truly the mission and purpose of SF is. Many of the recruiters will not have known a day in the Army without the GWOT being waged. Not having any experience in SF, I can say that as an outsider I believe that the opinion and views of many uninformed individuals is that SF is a MI/DA unit that develops HUMINT and uses actionable intelligence to conduct raids. I have buddies from the Marines who were egregiously misconceived about not only USA SF, but Rangers as well.
When I was a youngster, I read "Special Forces: A Guided Tour of US Army Special Forces" and was inspired then to achieve a place within the brotherhood. Recently I read Dick Couch's book "Chosen Soldier". He followed 18X candidates throughout SOPC, SFAS, and the Q-Course. He placed emphasis on the unconventional warfare and FID missions, and how they are unique to SF and how important the purpose of these missions and these warriors are to our leaders and the options they have within an AO of exercising policy.
It boggles my mind that there are people who think that earning their Green Beret and Special Forces tab makes them a BAMF. I learned in the Marines that training is the easy part. Afterwards, there are no excuses, do-overs, resets, and no guarantee of food, sleep, comfort, or life. I am working toward getting an 18X contract. In my mind, getting selected only means you've demonstrated the ability to complete the Q-course. Earning the GB & SF tab means earning a place within the brotherhood and a spot on a detachment. Every day afterward that tab and that beret have to be earned, and it won't get any easier.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I see it from my end.
:lifter
Gents,
These are observations I have made, take heed and adjust accordingly if applicable.
the application of Special Forces during the GWOT has been a corruption of our design and purpose. We went from being unique and special to door kicking,
a UW unit would use it's underground sources for information, identify the intended targets and set traps for the CT force using deception tactics.
SOPC/SFPC has corrupted the SFAS selection process, part of the selection process is first drawing the right person to the job, the soldier would then through his own initiative and commitment prepare himself for SFAS. Once he arrives at Bragg the Selection course then tests the student through various events that are intended to push a soldier past his preparation training and peel back the onion of his character.
If I may inquire, I'm a bit confused about the part in bold regarding SOPC/SFPC.
As an outsider to SFAS, but involved in an assessment program that is assessing for qualities rather than competencies across the 360 degree spectrum of physical, mental, emotional, and social components of candidates, I'm unsure how SOPC/SFPC could corrupt the SFAS selection process.
In an increasingly urbanised society producing what appear to be(anecdotally, but obesity data and excessive consumer convenience outcomes seem to back this up) less physically resilient citizens and potential candidates on average, the logic for SOPC/SFPC appears sound(again from an outsider).
I'm assuming the primary purpose of SOPC/SFPC is largely a means of providing a highly concentrated period of physical training to improve physical capacity, provide some personal reference points for physical resiliency and the related mental mindset adjustment.
For off the street X-rays and non-teeth arms candidates does it not provide a highly condensed set of experiences that would be familiar-ish to some teeth arms candidates coming from a light infantry/airborne background during their career?
Assuming the necessary ambiguity of SFAS isn't breached during SOPC/SFPC, negative emotional/social indicators aren't temporarily coached out of candidates to mask underlying long term unsuitability, and problem solving activities aren't duplicated or leaked to mask a lack of mental agility your comment has me genuinely scratching my head.
Is it because of a strong belief that the high level of intrinsic motivation required for candidates negates the need for intrinsically motivated candidates to need SOPC/SFPC in the first place?
Because I'm left thinking that if SOPC/SFPC focus on physical capability and resiliency and it helps candidates better achieve SFAS physical standards without interfering with mental(agility/intellectual/trainability) emotional, and social assessment for suitability, how can it be a bad thing?
Very interested in your response as assessment course development is something I've been working on the last few years so I'm a keen student of what's been done thru history and what's being done now across the board to shape required outputs.
Cheers!
WarriorDiplomat
08-06-2014, 12:48
[QUOTE=Flagg;558974]If I may inquire, I'm a bit confused about the part in bold regarding SOPC/SFPC.
Assessment for any career should be completely raw and kept pure, SOPC is Special Operations Preparation Course where soldiers who are recruited for SpecOps are trained to pass selection essentially gaming SFAS through preparation. This is wrong on many levels specifically for us it is because it removes a few of the key elements of assessment and that is initiative. drive and perseverance. We deem this as critical to the right person for the right job. Our career is initiative based and we are deployed without supervision and very little guidance thousands of miles from our Command, the desire to succeed must be inherent in the individuals character without question!.
For us the soldier making a decision to be a Special Forces soldier is the first step the next step is his own initiative to prepare for the training this may include learning how to navigate, physical conditioning and learning about the career so as to better understand what he is joining and why.
What SOPC does is takes away much of the character assessment of what we deem most critical to the core of who we are and what we do. The course itself is the other half and is the performance assessment that is where the soldiers commitment is tested, he must value team above self and mission above self. What selection does is force a soldier to make decisions that are revealing of his character such as when he is in pain and fatigue, hunger, cold, hot, wet etc….. This forces the soldier to make a decision to quit and seek comfort or continue to place the accomplishment of the objective above his own needs this puts his basic values into perspective for not only the soldier but for the cadre.
What you seem to be confused on is the conditioning for training and as I stated earlier SFAS is not training. IMO the coming to SFAS not conditioned for it is the first step in accepting personal accountability for our own actions or lack thereof. Fitness can influence the assessment for a soldiers psychological resistance to physical stress and fear of the unknown we should not interfere with the individuals own initiative or again lack of.
The issue with us running a preparation course is we are having cadre who know what is going to be expected and training recruits just to overcome the events and reduce the stresses placed on the recruit who now has an idea of what SFAS is going to be like and has the confidence going into it that he was prepared and guided to pass the events. The stress of not knowing what was next the uneasy quiet of the cadre and lack of detailed guidance was part of why soldiers would quit or why they would perform above and beyond the average soldier.
The conditioning phase should not exist and would not be needed if there were hard standards that professional soldiers understood and were held accountable for. Accountability is only effective if an individual must face his own failures, unpreparedness and denial of the desired end state. What we owe and all we should offer during the training is the information and opportunity to improve themselves the rest is on the individual. We do not want soldiers who have to be led we want soldiers that need to be guided once they "choose" to follow us.
By running these programs and controlling these critical portions of an individual’s character it conditions our soldiers to be led and controlled and never allows for the ability to honestly assess these attributes needed to operate independently as a representative of our country. We must allow the assessment and selection process to be untouched by us in order to preserve our force competence in the future.
The Reaper
08-06-2014, 13:04
Exactly.
SOPC/SFPC provides an unnecessary advantage to the 18Xs. A couple of weeks of cadre led PT and land nav training (and expereince) that not everyone else gets. I have seen units refuse to allow guys time to do individual PT and go as far as denying them a return from the field until the day before SFAS began.
Either we should add it to the SFAS program for everyone, or no one should get it.
TR
Trapper John
08-06-2014, 13:14
[QUOTE=Flagg;558974]If I may inquire, I'm a bit confused about the part in bold regarding SOPC/SFPC.
Assessment for any career should be completely raw and kept pure, SOPC is Special Operations Preparation Course where soldiers who are recruited for SpecOps are trained to pass selection essentially gaming SFAS through preparation. This is wrong on many levels specifically for us it is because it removes a few of the key elements of assessment and that is initiative. drive and perseverance. We deem this as critical to the right person for the right job. Our career is initiative based and we are deployed without supervision and very little guidance thousands of miles from our Command, the desire to succeed must be inherent in the individuals character without question!.
For us the soldier making a decision to be a Special Forces soldier is the first step the next step is his own initiative to prepare for the training this may include learning how to navigate, physical conditioning and learning about the career so as to better understand what he is joining and why.
What SOPC does is takes away much of the character assessment of what we deem most critical to the core of who we are and what we do. The course itself is the other half and is the performance assessment that is where the soldiers commitment is tested, he must value team above self and mission above self. What selection does is force a soldier to make decisions that are revealing of his character such as when he is in pain and fatigue, hunger, cold, hot, wet etc….. This forces the soldier to make a decision to quit and seek comfort or continue to place the accomplishment of the objective above his own needs this puts his basic values into perspective for not only the soldier but for the cadre.
What you seem to be confused on is the conditioning for training and as I stated earlier SFAS is not training. IMO the coming to SFAS not conditioned for it is the first step in accepting personal accountability for our own actions or lack thereof. Fitness can influence the assessment for a soldiers psychological resistance to physical stress and fear of the unknown we should not interfere with the individuals own initiative or again lack of.
The issue with us running a preparation course is we are having cadre who know what is going to be expected and training recruits just to overcome the events and reduce the stresses placed on the recruit who now has an idea of what SFAS is going to be like and has the confidence going into it that he was prepared and guided to pass the events. The stress of not knowing what was next the uneasy quiet of the cadre and lack of detailed guidance was part of why soldiers would quit or why they would perform above and beyond the average soldier.
The conditioning phase should not exist and would not be needed if there were hard standards that professional soldiers understood and were held accountable for. Accountability is only effective if an individual must face his own failures, unpreparedness and denial of the desired end state. What we owe and all we should offer during the training is the information and opportunity to improve themselves the rest is on the individual. We do not want soldiers who have to be led we want soldiers that need to be guided once they "choose" to follow us.
By running these programs and controlling these critical portions of an individual’s character it conditions our soldiers to be led and controlled and never allows for the ability to honestly assess these attributes needed to operate independently as a representative of our country. We must allow the assessment and selection process to be untouched by us in order to preserve our force competence in the future.
Couldn't agree more WD! I didn't realize this was going on and it is nothing more than "teaching to the test". I can understand the reasoning though, but that should definitely change in light of the new mission focus. Qualities and characteristics needed are more intuitive or innate and not ones that can be developed in a 4-wk course anyway. JMHO
[QUOTE=Flagg;558974]If I may inquire, I'm a bit confused about the part in bold regarding SOPC/SFPC.
Assessment for any career should be completely raw and kept pure, SOPC is Special Operations Preparation Course where soldiers who are recruited for SpecOps are trained to pass selection essentially gaming SFAS through preparation. This is wrong on many levels specifically for us it is because it removes a few of the key elements of assessment and that is initiative. drive and perseverance. We deem this as critical to the right person for the right job. Our career is initiative based and we are deployed without supervision and very little guidance thousands of miles from our Command, the desire to succeed must be inherent in the individuals character without question!.
For us the soldier making a decision to be a Special Forces soldier is the first step the next step is his own initiative to prepare for the training this may include learning how to navigate, physical conditioning and learning about the career so as to better understand what he is joining and why.
What SOPC does is takes away much of the character assessment of what we deem most critical to the core of who we are and what we do. The course itself is the other half and is the performance assessment that is where the soldiers commitment is tested, he must value team above self and mission above self. What selection does is force a soldier to make decisions that are revealing of his character such as when he is in pain and fatigue, hunger, cold, hot, wet etc….. This forces the soldier to make a decision to quit and seek comfort or continue to place the accomplishment of the objective above his own needs this puts his basic values into perspective for not only the soldier but for the cadre.
What you seem to be confused on is the conditioning for training and as I stated earlier SFAS is not training. IMO the coming to SFAS not conditioned for it is the first step in accepting personal accountability for our own actions or lack thereof. Fitness can influence the assessment for a soldiers psychological resistance to physical stress and fear of the unknown we should not interfere with the individuals own initiative or again lack of.
The issue with us running a preparation course is we are having cadre who know what is going to be expected and training recruits just to overcome the events and reduce the stresses placed on the recruit who now has an idea of what SFAS is going to be like and has the confidence going into it that he was prepared and guided to pass the events. The stress of not knowing what was next the uneasy quiet of the cadre and lack of detailed guidance was part of why soldiers would quit or why they would perform above and beyond the average soldier.
The conditioning phase should not exist and would not be needed if there were hard standards that professional soldiers understood and were held accountable for. Accountability is only effective if an individual must face his own failures, unpreparedness and denial of the desired end state. What we owe and all we should offer during the training is the information and opportunity to improve themselves the rest is on the individual. We do not want soldiers who have to be led we want soldiers that need to be guided once they "choose" to follow us.
By running these programs and controlling these critical portions of an individual’s character it conditions our soldiers to be led and controlled and never allows for the ability to honestly assess these attributes needed to operate independently as a representative of our country. We must allow the assessment and selection process to be untouched by us in order to preserve our force competence in the future.
Cheers for that.
Do you believe there is scope for any organized physical conditioning program pre-selection?
Truth #3 states SOF cannot be mass produced.
But are any allowances able to be made to adjust for a less physically active and more sedentary society(18X pool) that funds a fast shrinking pool of uniformed candidates?
Is society producing candidates today who are less initially physically capable and resilient today on average than 20,40, 60 years ago?
If so, can anything be done to assist potential candidates to exceed the required physical standard and develop physical/mental resilience without gaming/corrupting that physical slice of selection?
Down here I see a high anecdotal correlation for successful candidates from very active rural backgrounds and endurance athletes.
But that pool appears to be at high risk of shrinking.
Would a minimum threshold of circa 250+ AFPT and <58 minute 4 mile ruck times as a minimum standard to attending SFAS, paired with physical fitness mentoring to well exceed the minimum standards both make SOPC/SFPC redundant as well as mitigate the potential for short-term masking of unsuitable candidate characteristics?
As found here:
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=148418&postcount=7
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a245729.pdf
I hear what you're saying about inoculating candidates to stressors and ambiguity potentially polluting SFAS assessment results.
Could an argument be made that SOPC/SFPC corrupting SFAS assessment results would be quantifiably indicated in higher failure rates in Phases 1-4?
Once again cheers for your feedback.
WarriorDiplomat
08-06-2014, 17:08
:D[QUOTE=WarriorDiplomat;558997]
Cheers for that.
Do you believe there is scope for any organized physical conditioning program pre-selection?
No I believe that for one of our candidates any organized train up should be by the students on their own time through their own initiative without any current cadre influence
Truth #3 states SOF cannot be mass produced.
But are any allowances able to be made to adjust for a less physically active and more sedentary society(18X pool) that funds a fast shrinking pool of uniformed candidates?
We are not looking for the guy you just described we are looking for the self starter not easily influenced by the weaknesses of society.
Is society producing candidates today who are less initially physically capable and resilient today on average than 20,40, 60 years ago?
I cannot say that we are more or less resilient I believe living through hardship in life both physically and mentally make you a more resilient person. Toughness is forged through adversity. As a society people were tougher physically when there were less available comforts.
If so, can anything be done to assist potential candidates to exceed the required physical standard and develop physical/mental resilience without gaming/corrupting that physical slice of selection?
Yes of course we draw the right guy and provide them the opportunity. A successful candidate will do what he must to succeed to some extent within his control. Some resiliency attributes are not in the candidates control they are ingrained into their character and burned into their DNA.
Down here I see a high anecdotal correlation for successful candidates from very active rural backgrounds and endurance athletes.
But that pool appears to be at high risk of shrinking.
Being a country boy, farmer, cowboy, athlete, minister, professor etc...do not matter in the center of their being is a characteristic we want and will surface once we peel the layers of the onion away in SFAS. If we recruit FOR the right guy they will come regardless of "polls" and "statistics" that are as close to the truth as a politician.
Would a minimum threshold of circa 250+ AFPT and <58 minute 4 mile ruck times as a minimum standard to attending SFAS, paired with physical fitness mentoring to well exceed the minimum standards both make SOPC/SFPC redundant as well as mitigate the potential for short-term masking of unsuitable candidate characteristics?
If a standard is put out soldiers must meet it, if they want to be the best they will surpass that if they want to be assessed for an elite unit he has to be willing to look deep into his soul and his basic character and find out what he is and where his true values are. Once SFAS is complete a soldier should know who he really is and what he really wants.
As found here:
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=148418&postcount=7
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a245729.pdf
I hear what you're saying about inoculating candidates to stressors and ambiguity potentially polluting SFAS assessment results.
Could an argument be made that SOPC/SFPC corrupting SFAS assessment results would be quantifiably indicated in higher failure rates in Phases 1-4?
Once again cheers for your feedback.
If an institution wants soldier they will find away to reduce attrition period hence SOPC/SFPC. Yes as an SUT cadre the soldiers coming through training lack many of the character traits required for our core mission. For example our last class 3 E7's, most of the E6's and the Captains all formed a coup and approached our Company Commander and demanded transparency in his leadership. This was because training had ended and recovery was complete the students wanted to leave on day 40 instead of day 42 IAW our training calendar and ATTRS. This I believe can be attributed to our selection process we had not selected the right guys and it was clear that someone failed miserably when it came to screening, recruiting and assessing candidates. This was the 2nd out of 5 classes where a incident happened with candidates believing they could control the training. It is highly unlikely these Captains will be relieved and they will one day lead SF. This is a case in point where we have not selected the right guys and the importance of truly assessing and selecting the right guys had we left the training for the above they would have no doubt shown themselves as unsuitable but since the training covers up undesirable traits. We have been leading students because they have little inate sense of right and wrong and cannot be guided. Again we want those who need to be guided not those that MUST be led to do the right thing.
Your responses
Cheers! Thanks heaps for taking the time to post responses to my questions.
Peregrino
08-06-2014, 19:16
You think SOPC enables the wrong candidates to "pass" now - wait until they "tweak" it so females are able to succeed at SFAS.
WarriorDiplomat
08-06-2014, 19:48
You think SOPC enables the wrong candidates to "pass" now - wait until they "tweak" it so females are able to succeed at SFAS.
Sickens me to know that our own leaders will zealously pursue making this happen knowing damn good and well they will never be on the ground as an SF soldier ever again.
Whether attrition happens in the Q-course or real world political agendas will be met in the short term in the long term the legacy will be damaged and our place as a dominant military will suffer greatly.
Rome is falling and our leaders are happily making it happen for short term career gain.
Rome is falling and our leaders are happily making it happen for short term career gain.
I actually disagree...
The people you talk about are EXACTLY concerned about long term career gain.
A career in the miitary is short term. If you look at when Hillary Clinton was kicked off the watergate investigation for being an unethical lawyer, and apply it to a miitary caeer...
You could have joined the service right when she was getting kicked off of the investigation for being a lying, unethical lawyer. You could have had a child...
You could have had a successful career in the Army and retired back in the 90's.
...your child could have enlisted just before her husband was impeached.
Your child could be retiring from the Army right about now: Just as the same person that lied about her watergate investigation was busy lying to congress about her actions in the present day...
....as the Secretary of State.
That child born as HRC was getting fired from her job for being a lying, unethical public servant, would start collecting his retirment about the same time that HRC was running for her OWN shot at presidential office (even though she is the same person that was ejected from a preseidential impeachment invesitgation for unethical behavior, that married a guy that got impeached)
...thats right- TWO unethical Clinton presidents in the White House at the same time.
Nope...
...this type of shit isn't done for short term gain. These peope are experts at long-term politics. These people are worrying about the end game from the instant they throw their hat in the political ring.
...I can fuck up the military, piss on your traditions, wipe my ass with your espirit-de-corp, and still be home in time to accept a job as a defense consultant for three times the salary that I get paid now.
All because I played ball with the politicians while I was still in the Army.
Short term goal, career military service...
...long term goal, DCIA
...long term goal, head of the VA
...long term goal, Board of Directors for Siemens Government Systems, dealing arms internationally while quietly lobbying for stricter domestic gun control laws
This isn't short term gain my friend. This is a long term strategy for an end game play that is already in progress.
Making it look like a short term plan is all part of the illusion.
WarriorDiplomat
08-06-2014, 21:04
I actually disagree...
The people you talk about are EXACTLY concerned about long term career gain.
A career in the miitary is short term. If you look at when Hillary Clinton was kicked off the watergate investigation for being an unethical lawyer, and apply it to a miitary caeer...
You could have joined the service right when she was getting kicked off of the investigation for being a lying, unethical lawyer. You could have had a child.
You could have had a successful career in the Army and retired back in the 90's.
...your child could have enlisted just before her husband was impeached.
Your child could be retiring from the Army as the same person that lied about her watergate investigation was busy lying to congress about her actions...
....as the Secretary of State.
That child born as HRC was getting fired from her job for being a lying, unethical public servant, would start collecting his retirment about the same time that the same person that was ejected from a preseidential impeachment invesitgation for unethical behavior was running for her OWN shot at presidential office
Nope...
...this type of shit isn't done for short term gain. These peope are experts at long-term politics. These people are worrying about the end game from the instant they throw their hat in the political ring.
...I can fuck up the military, piss on your traditions, wipe my ass with your espirit-de-corp, and still be home in time to accept a job as a defense consultant for three times the salary what I get paid now.
All because I played ball with the politicians while I was still in the Army.
Short term goal, career military service...
...long term goal, DCIA
...long term goal, head of the VA
...long term goal, Board of Directors for Siemens Government Systems, dealing arms internationally while quietly lobbying for stricter domestic gun control laws
This isn't short term gain my friend. This is a long term strategy for an end game play that is already in progress.
Making it look like a short term plan is all part of the illusion.
Excellent post and you are right I forgot about good ole HRC potentially our next President and these military leaders know it. How long term will any career be in a country that is losing it's place as a world power,.. especially when the military projection of power is damaged because they want to be the ones that enabled pigtails out there representing everything they should fear and respect of our military capabilities a microcosm of why we are powerful. I cant wait until one of these eastern European's get their hands on an SF female and test her grit physically like they do us. Or the H2H contests friendly or otherwise to put that perceptively weak GB to the test to see if he is worth respecting happens there is a reason why the Tm Sgt carefully selects whom will be doing what and with whom to avoid his team looking vulnerable.
I suppose in the world of feminists this is wrong if they do this and totally unfair and there are other ways to establish worth blah blah blah. Well bullets care not who they kill and powerhouse countries care not who the have to defeat to get to the top of the mountain. Once this happens you watch how much more bolder countries like Russia, N. Korea, China, Iran etc...become when they decide to start encroaching on regions where we work faster than they are now. Couple female Infantry, Rangers, SEAL's and GB's with more Presidents like Obama and possibly HRC and we are done as a world power in short order.
How will the U.S. react the first time a female GB is raped overseas by a host nation soldier just to prove a point to how weak our military has gotten. This is PSYOP 101 and every other country is chompin at the bit to see our status fall.
Gents,
These are observations I have made, take heed and adjust accordingly if applicable.
Many of us career GB's are passionate true believers, we want the best soldiers for the Regiment we are not out to get soldiers we want the talents and skills you bring. Understand we are here to select, train and assess attributes and skills that are either suitable or not suitable for Special Forces, our loyalty is to the Special Forces.
There are realities you must face such as those that are here for the wrong reason. Those that are here for the sole purpose of bragging rights, tabs, shooting people in the face, perceived lack of rules etc... are not true believers and not the model of why Green Berets are special. The Best Green Berets are those you have never heard of. There are E6's as well as SGM's that gained their rank and experience d uring GWOT kicking doors conducting DA, understand the application of Special Forces during the GWOT has been a corruption of our design and purpose. We went from being unique and special to door kicking, this is a misuse of our unique capabilities and should not be confused with our design and purpose.
Counterterrist units, Intelligence Units, Navy SOF, and other SOF units are not Special Forces they are Special Operations units. These units are Hyperconventional we are Unconventional they are better at what they specialize in not at what we do. In our area of expertise if a CounterTerrorism Unit were to attempt to kidnap, rescue or kill someone in our UW campaign area a UW unit would use it's underground sources for information, identify the intended targets and set traps for the CT force using deception tactics.
SOPC/SFPC has corrupted the SFAS selection process, part of the selection process is first drawing the right person to the job, the soldier would then through his own initiative and commitment prepare himself for SFAS. Once he arrives at Bragg the Selection course then tests the student through various events that are intended to push a soldier past his preparation training and peel back the onion of his character. Do not congratulate yourselves on getting selecting consider it a baby step into a much bigger world, selected does not mean you can "sham your way to a Green Beret" as one student stated.
We do not think you guys are funny when you write ridiculous crap on your bios this in our opinion is insight to your character and maturity.
Getting selected does not entitle you to an ego or a chip on your shoulder no matter what you are told. For every GB there are many others who are equal in ability and intelligence if not better with no desire to join Special Forces. Nothing we do is superhuman what we value above all else is the mission and the sense of brotherhood amongst like minded individuals. It is how we think and feel about what we do that seperates us from others, we are willing to tread into the unknown for an undetermined amount of time without accolades or recognition of any sort. We are loyal to our country and the people, we are more importantly loyal to the ideals of freedom "De Oppresson Liber" to liberate the oppressed is our motto and most of us believe in it.
The basics of Special Forces are contained in 3 phases, SUT, MOS, Robin Sage the rest is additional overblown training. The advanced schools do not make you a better Special Forces soldier they give you skills not talent. If you Master the basics and self educate the implied embedded skills you will be a great Green Beret. Their are alot of GB's who have never been to some of the advanced schools such as Sniper but know the skill better than those that have. It is your duty to be a true master of your MOS before you go to any advanced school. Going to HALO/HAHO, Scuba, Ranger, Sapper, Mountaineering etc....do not make you a competent Green Beret.
Read history, those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it. The history of Unconventional Warfare is smattered throughout world history. Learn to recognize what UW is and why it is effective.
NCO's and Officers coming through training are expected to conduct yourselves according to your rank. Your conduct influences 18X-rays both positive and negative. Your conduct lead these young men even if you don't want the responsibility it is there, so don't complain or make excuses. We are watching the example you are setting and we will hold you accountable for your lack of positive leadership.
Read this and understand the future of the Regiment is more important to us than your desire to join. Not all of you are wired for this career and life. We would prefer you X-rays get experience before coming here to be trained so that you can appreciate the value of leadership and learn about the Army.
Good luck to all of you.
Great advice WD!! The Learn your MOS is something that most need to do, and then teach the rest of your ODA!!
Every ODA member should know all the weapons we use, not just the Bravos!!!
WarriorDiplomat
08-13-2014, 18:34
Great advice WD!! The Learn your MOS is something that most need to do, and then teach the rest of your ODA!!
Every ODA member should know all the weapons we use, not just the Bravos!!!
MG their is an old saying that is everything you ever need to learn to be a success was learned in primary school the Reading, writing and arithmetic are the only true enablers taught in school the rest is brainwashing crap like history and all the other time fillers.
Why is America failing in education? because we are not providing opportunities to learn we are forcing them to learn what the schools says they need which does not fit into our reality. This does not require discernment or critical thinking and it is slowly being taught out of our children.
In SF the basic 3 phases of the Q are the only things you need to know to be successful as a GB for ANY mission you do in the regiment. The sad thing is watching the GB mill here teach things in detail bypassing the experience that is needed to truly understand it.
MG their is an old saying that is everything you ever need to learn to be a success was learned in primary school the Reading, writing and arithmetic are the only true enablers taught in school the rest is brainwashing crap like history and all the other time fillers.
Why is America failing in education? because we are not providing opportunities to learn we are forcing them to learn what the schools says they need which does not fit into our reality. This does not require discernment or critical thinking and it is slowly being taught out of our children.
In SF the basic 3 phases of the Q are the only things you need to know to be successful as a GB for ANY mission you do in the regiment. The sad thing is watching the GB mill here teach things in detail bypassing the experience that is needed to truly understand it.
I've been exploring the potential of the following for both my own kids and the soldiers I train/assess:
http://www.icelp.info/the-method/the-feuerstein-tools.aspx
Just go put onto it recently.
Trapper John
08-14-2014, 06:18
I actually disagree...
The people you talk about are EXACTLY concerned about long term career gain.
A career in the miitary is short term. If you look at when Hillary Clinton was kicked off the watergate investigation for being an unethical lawyer, and apply it to a miitary caeer...
This isn't short term gain my friend. This is a long term strategy for an end game play that is already in progress.
Making it look like a short term plan is all part of the illusion.
Billy, I have been thinking about this ever since you posted it and sadly, I think you are exactly correct!
Sickens me to know that our own leaders will zealously pursue making this happen knowing damn good and well they will never be on the ground as an SF soldier ever again.
Whether attrition happens in the Q-course or real world political agendas will be met in the short term in the long term the legacy will be damaged and our place as a dominant military will suffer greatly.
Rome is falling and our leaders are happily making it happen for short term career gain.
You got that Dang Right!!
MG their is an old saying that is everything you ever need to learn to be a success was learned in primary school the Reading, writing and arithmetic are the only true enablers taught in school the rest is brainwashing crap like history and all the other time fillers.
Why is America failing in education? because we are not providing opportunities to learn we are forcing them to learn what the schools says they need which does not fit into our reality. This does not require discernment or critical thinking and it is slowly being taught out of our children.
In SF the basic 3 phases of the Q are the only things you need to know to be successful as a GB for ANY mission you do in the regiment. The sad thing is watching the GB mill here teach things in detail bypassing the experience that is needed to truly understand it.
This is a great point, we all know that the military is a reflection of our society. Yet why do the ones of us that got the better or right education, at whichever level, no getting it? Yeah the brainwashing is still going on outside of the school.
MG their is an old saying that is everything you ever need to learn to be a success was learned in primary school the Reading, writing and arithmetic are the only true enablers taught in school the rest is brainwashing crap like history and all the other time fillers.
Why is America failing in education? because we are not providing opportunities to learn we are forcing them to learn what the schools says they need which does not fit into our reality. This does not require discernment or critical thinking and it is slowly being taught out of our children.
In SF the basic 3 phases of the Q are the only things you need to know to be successful as a GB for ANY mission you do in the regiment. The sad thing is watching the GB mill here teach things in detail bypassing the experience that is needed to truly understand it.
First off thanks for posting this thread I enjoyed reading it.
Second, excuse me if this is a little off topic and I may be mistaken but could you please explain why you are inferring that history is a form of brainwashing or just a time filler? I personally find history inspiring (Alexander the Great, Spartans, Rome, feudal Japan etc.) as well as useful for providing context for what's going on in the world. It's interesting to see how world events have led up to where we are today.
I largely agree with you on the state of the United States education system but I see no need to give history a worse reputation than it already has lol.
Maybe I'm just misreading what you're saying but I'm curious as to what your thoughts are.
Thanks,
-Talo
Thanks for sharing WD, I'm looking forward to the second go 'round.
WarriorDiplomat
08-14-2014, 19:00
First off thanks for posting this thread I enjoyed reading it.
Second, excuse me if this is a little off topic and I may be mistaken but could you please explain why you are inferring that history is a form of brainwashing or just a time filler? I personally find history inspiring (Alexander the Great, Spartans, Rome, feudal Japan etc.) as well as useful for providing context for what's going on in the world. It's interesting to see how world events have led up to where we are today.
I largely agree with you on the state of the United States education system but I see no need to give history a worse reputation than it already has lol.
Maybe I'm just misreading what you're saying but I'm curious as to what your thoughts are.
Thanks,
-Talo
I am a study of history I believe in the saying that those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it. The problem with history is unlike science which is based off available hard tangible evidence history is based off a tiny viewpoint of what happened.
A Math problem is an absolute for the most part their is no question that 2+2=4. History on the other hand is arbitrary and slanted, who decides what history will be taught? Not you or I make that decision, it is some bureaucrat and you and I have no say over our understanding of how America was built they do.
You just have to be read enough to put some measure of balance to it so it makes more sense. What you need to be taught about history is this, there are more than just our point of view and experience, the victors do write history but it does not mean it is true. History is not fact it is a story put together by another historian based off the available information and his/hers personal beliefs and how they interpret it. Historians routinely make assumptions to fill in gaps that cannot be substantiated.
Case in Point the story of Spartacus and the third slave rebellion was not recorded until a hundred years after the rebellion ended and their is no proof that their was a central leader only a story that was passed down til someone put it in writing.
Looking at my kids history books there are glaring differences in what different states and school systems accept as history.
There is an interesting book I read called the "ghosts of the zahara" it talks about white slavery in Africa, according to some their were more white slaves in Africa than there were ever black slaves in the U.S. Have you ever heard of this being taught in our schools? if it was there would be some balance to what is actually taught wouldn't there. I was taught that Europeans went to Africa and captured Africans and brought them here. Then I read in Africa no less how the stronger tribes captured and enslaved weaker tribes and then sold or traded them to Europeans.
Even the bible cannot decide on its history in the Vatican their are something like over 50 gospels in their original languages the church chose to only have 4. Who decided this?
Even what USAJFKSWCS has a version of history that does not match up with the recorded events of how SF was formed and what our lineage is.
There are lessons to be learned but history is a touchy subject that can create tension between social groups and comes with great responsibility because it is not now nor has it ever been true.
I am a study of history I believe in the saying that those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it. The problem with history is unlike science which is based off available hard tangible evidence history is based off a tiny viewpoint of what happened.
A Math problem is an absolute for the most part their is no question that 2+2=4. History on the other hand is arbitrary and slanted, who decides what history will be taught? Not you or I make that decision, it is some bureaucrat and you and I have no say over our understanding of how America was built they do.
You just have to be read enough to put some measure of balance to it so it makes more sense. What you need to be taught about history is this, there are more than just our point of view and experience, the victors do write history but it does not mean it is true. History is not fact it is a story put together by another historian based off the available information and his/hers personal beliefs and how they interpret it. Historians routinely make assumptions to fill in gaps that cannot be substantiated.
Case in Point the story of Spartacus and the third slave rebellion was not recorded until a hundred years after the rebellion ended and their is no proof that their was a central leader only a story that was passed down til someone put it in writing.
Looking at my kids history books there are glaring differences in what different states and school systems accept as history.
Even what USAJFKSWCS has a version of history that does not match up with the recorded events of how SF was formed and what our lineage is.
Thank you for the clarification that makes much more sense. I can appreciate the idea of taking a grain of salt with what history tells us and that some stories are more true than others.
That's something for me to consider more deeply as I continue to explore history.
Thanks again.
Trapper John
08-14-2014, 19:59
WD - Agree with your viewpoint on the problems (bias) of how history is taught, i.e. the politicization of history. Same thing happens in the field of science too, i.e the debate over global warming for example.
The only counter to this bias, IMO, is critical thinking and doing the primary research or at least secondary source research. History books are tertiary sources at best and are therefore very biased. Add to this the decision of school boards to make decisions of which bias is to be taught and you have a very confusing situation to unravel in the first place. So if you keep critical thinking skills out of the curriculum, you can be pretty sure that you will create the drones you want. And IMO that is exactly the direction we are heading in education.
I'd love to read what Richard and Sigaba have to say on that subject.
WarriorDiplomat
08-15-2014, 08:29
"Some" was actually a University of Ohio professor researching European whites enslaved by Muslims of the Barbary coast.
WHEN EUROPEANS WERE SLAVES: RESEARCH SUGGESTS WHITE SLAVERY WAS MUCH MORE COMMON THAN PREVIOUSLY BELIEVED
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/whtslav.htm
I agree with seeking multiple views of history. The two sides involved in a battle or war, for instance, can each consider themselves the victor in the end, but how and why they won could be entirely dependent upon their own values and point of view.
The War of 1812 comes immediately to mind.
You are absolutely right I could not remember the source of that data.
Ironically enough slavery still exists in Africa, the darker the skin in the Trans-Sahara region the lower you are on the social scale.
I got the book the (not ghosts) skeletons on the zahara from a Morrocan who studied in Epypt for his advanced degree. I then researched the story on several sources a really interesting subject that ties into the purpose of the security in intercontinental commerce I was thinking the Navy/Marine Corps to secure ours. The book itself deals with a ship that started going down off the coast of northern Africa their decision to abandon the ship to the shores and the decision to take a chance with a bedouin caravan for help rather than die of thirst and starvation. For the next several years they were traded into slavery between tribes, forced marches, drinking camel urine to survive a forced march across the sahara during the summer months and the rescue from an embassy in Morroco. Apparaently even to this day shipping companies all pitch in to a fund to pay for the release of ship captives all over the world.
Funny you are from Illinois the Ship Captain or the ambassador I believe retired in that state and this where the book was written. I also read that president Lincoln was inspired by the book as a boy.