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View Full Version : Does the "Regular Army" hate SF?


Kuri
12-08-2004, 08:05
Gentlemen, I've always believed that it is better to keep your dreams/goals to yourself because if you let others know about what you intend to manifest, you'll end up having to defend your intentions. It seems that many people in the "regular Army" either look at SF as an impossible dream or as something not worth doing. Everyone seems to have a story about how they went to Selection(this also goes for Ranger School too), but they didn't succeed and they then try to discourage anyone else from trying. My reason for this post is not to validate my own reasons for setting my sights on SF. I'm just wondering if any of you guys that came from conventional units had any difficulty with your chain of command letting you go? Kuri OUT.

Bill Harsey
12-08-2004, 09:22
Long history on this one.

I'll let the others jump in.

The Reaper
12-08-2004, 09:26
Gentlemen, I've always believed that it is better to keep your dreams/goals to yourself because if you let others know about what you intend to manifest, you'll end up having to defend your intentions. It seems that many people in the "regular Army" either look at SF as an impossible dream or as something not worth doing. Everyone seems to have a story about how they went to Selection(this also goes for Ranger School too), but they didn't succeed and they then try to discourage anyone else from trying. My reason for this post is not to validate my own reasons for setting my sights on SF. I'm just wondering if any of you guys that came from conventional units had any difficulty with your chain of command letting you go? Kuri OUT.

I have spoken with soldiers attending SFAS extensively about that.

Much of it is in the timing. If you tell your leadership that you want to go to SFAS right before a major unit event or a deployment, particularly if you are a key player or are in a leadership position, you will probably encounter resistance.

Frequently, the motivation for requesting SFAS is suspect. Many of the students ARE coming to SFAS for reasons other than being selected. These are the ones who fail the APFT, or VW in the first week. Maybe they wanted a free trip to Camp Mackall, maybe they wanted to get out of something back at their unit.

Some units just have a culture that hates SF and tries every trick in the book to keep their soldiers from attending. Some of the worst used to be infantry units, particularly the 82nd or 3rd ID. The absolute worst, hands down, was the Ranger Regiment. They will refuse to allow soldiers to attend SFAS, remove them from leadership positions, re-write efficiency reports, threaten with UCMJ or release from Regiment, refuse to process the 4187, put guys on CQ/Staff Duty for weeks at a time, hide the SFAS orders from the soldiers, refuse to administer required physicals, etc. At the same time, Rangers attending other selection courses get duty time off to prepare, etc. Go figure. Overall, support units give their soldiers less hassles about coming to SFAS than combat arms.

In some cases, the officer leadership is the problem (usually when it is an officer requesting attendance), but in most, it is the NCO chain of command at the E-8 and E-9 levels. Much of that is not wanting to lose their best guys, but in many cases, I think that it is jealousy and a wish that they had done the same thing when they had the chance. Some probably tried, and failed, so that may also be part of it as well.

What is really perplexing to me is that candidates who return to their units have basically been through some great physical training, the most demanding cross-country movement, the best test of operating solo, and the finest land navigation training in the military, an outstanding peer and self-assessment review, and a truly awesome opportunity to see how well you interact with others as a member of a team, for less than a 30 day loss of the soldier. Frankly, I would not care if soldier went, as long as he didn't quit. I know that I would get a much better soldier back, even if I only got to keep him for another six months while he waited for SFQC orders. It really is for the good of the Army and this great nation to let the soldiers try, and let the ones who succeed go to SF. The leaders who don't are putting their personal interests above those of the service.

Any man who sticks it out till the end of Selection gets fully out-counseled on their strengths and weaknesses, what they need to do to succeed, and should leave with dignity and confidence intact. These guys are powerful recruiters (or discouragers) when they get back to their units and talk to their peers about the experience. It behooves us to make their experience a positive one. Most of the trash talkers and nay sayers are probably quitters.

If it were me, I would make sure that no critical unit activities or deployments were coming up, no efficiency report was due in the near future, start getting all of my paperwork together, train-up and drop the 4187 at the last minute, requesting the first available SFAS class. Then keep copies of everything, track the status, and stay in touch with the recruiter.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

Jack Moroney (RIP)
12-08-2004, 10:36
Kuri there are a lot of folks outside (and some inside) the SOF community that just don't have clue what SF is all about. I find it interesting that those that tried and failed can make up their mind about anything dealing with SF. The training and or selection is just the beginning and someone coming out of the training knows enough to get their foot in the team room door. The real training and development starts from the first day they meet their Team Sergeant and doesn't stop until they hang up their beret. There are a lot or reasons for these attitudes and run from ignorance, as I mentioned, to being absolutely embarrassed professionally by some SF soldier or team. The biggest point of contention from the regular folks is the money available for SOF to obtain the latest widgits and/or for training. Most SF troops fire more ammo in a month during training than many conventional units fire in a year. I realize that there are a lot of variables here and that I have only scratched the surface but I think I can unequivocably say that the primary reason is that most organizations do not want to lose their best troops to something that they either are not willing to participate in or lost their oppportunity because of their own career choices.

Jack Moroney

NousDefionsDoc
12-08-2004, 13:46
Excellent posts Sirs.

Eagle5US
12-08-2004, 13:57
Excellent posts Sirs.
Concur!

For every few that succeed, there are a hundred that failed or quit...for the hundred that failed or quit, there are a thousand who say "I was gonna try out...BUT (insert excuse de jour here)".
This creates an impression of aloofness OUTSIDE of the organization. Few folks also get training opportunities that we do on a fairly regular basis. This also can create an air of jealosy and disdain seeing the "guys with long hair and square chutes" drive to the DZ in their POV's while the 82nd was trucked out and has been sitting in chalk lines for 5 hours after JMPI in the Carolina sun.

Bottom line-don't worry about what others think...It's what's in your heart, motivating you to succeed, that is important.

Good Luck-

Eagle

BMT
12-08-2004, 16:50
A tale from the RVN era or it might even be true!!!


When "SPLASH" Kelly had the 5th Gp. in VN,he was able to have afew men he didn't like transferred the the 9th ID in IV Corp.
He warned the divison CG these were not very good soldiers in his book.
Awhile later CG 9th ID contacted "SPLASH" and said he would like atleast 100 more of his misfits.

:D

BMT

SP5IC
12-08-2004, 18:18
My son went through jump school in the summer of 2001 as a cadet so I had an opportunity to revisit the area, albeit 36 years later. The head shed has just about every airborne unit shoulder patch painted on the outside of the building. Conspicuous in its absence, is our patch & tabs. There is a Ranger scroll with a short tab above it. I like the 82nd. I always tour Division when I am in town. The is a 82nd PX with cheap t shirts. My kids looked like 82nd ragamuffins when they were...kids. Shirts there were unit specific, not like at Clothing Sales or the Main PX. Cool.

Radar Rider
12-09-2004, 00:16
It's hard to say if "hate" is the reality. I'm sure there is some of that, but more than anything else, I believe that there is a great deal of jealousy/envy of those that have gone on to do more than the regular Soldier.

I am an MI Soldier, and I have seen both sides of the issue. Most MI weenies (pogues, if you will) spend more time avoiding PT and the field than those that are willing to get dirty. These are the same folks that will always comment on "scare me" badges. That is simply a cliche used in an attempt to downplay the accomplishments of those that have done more than the minimum required by the Army. Most flatliners (those with nothing above the U.S. Army tape) are more petty and jealous than anything else.

I am not SF; I am Special Operations Support Personnel. I don't walk around saying "Hey, look at me. Look at my chest". I just do my job better than anyone else. In my experience, that is how most Special Forces Soldiers do their jobs, as well. No bragging, no posturing, just getting it done. Hence, the title "Quiet Professionals".

Kuri
12-09-2004, 04:09
Gentlemen once again, thanks for your input. It seems that when a soldier wants to do things to better themselves, the world is against them. But this isn't a shock because it happens in the civilian sector as well. Luckily, I know how to motivate myself and can accomplish my goals without constant positive reinforcement. Thanks again! Kuri OUT.

RHRP
12-13-2004, 06:05
Just to add my 2cents worth. The resentment and reluctance to let soldiers try out for SF also extends to here in Australia. Relating my own experience (I serve in our Army Reserve), I applied for SF Selection several months ago and it's only recently that my request was signed off at Battalion level. I still have several steps to go in the process, however the ball is rolling. Based on anecdotal evidence and speaking to other diggers in the same situation, the hold up directly relates to our BHQ being reluctant to let soldiers go, a situation I find pretty hard to fathom. If a soldier has the motivation and desire to further their career's they should be encouraged and given the opportunity - not held back due to a desire to keep the numbers up within the various Company's in our Battalion. I had to push as hard as I could, however being way down the foodchain in terms of rank their is a limit to how hard I could push. The level of support I've received at my Company has been fantastic, mainly due to my 2IC being ex SF and making it known very early when I marched in that my desire is to head in the SF direction once I completed the necessary time within my unit (approx 18 months). As has already been mentioned in previous posts, even if a digger is unsuccessful they generally return to their previous unit a better soldier for the experience than when they left . The situation also extends Army wide to soldiers expressing a desire to try-out for SF. This is more in terms of those wishing to join Commandos (4RAR and 1 Commando Regiment) as opposed to SAS, as SAS is deemed the pinnacle within our SF community. To provide an example our Army has recently introduced a direct recruiting scheme (which I believe the US Army has had for a few years - please correct me if I'm wrong), the main aim being to increase numbers within 4RAR, which is our full-time Commando Regiment. On the whole this has caused a great deal of resentment within our regular battalions, the main gripe being civvies are provided with a short-cut and preferential treatment in terms of the additional and advanced training the receive right from the word go. Whilst I can see both sides of the argument my feelings are that as they have to go through the same selection process with the same standards expected as anyone else joining SF, I don't have a problem with it. Every fulltime soldier has the opportunity to join SF and if they choose not to then they don't have a basis to gripe. Besides, the whole reason for introducing the direct recruiting scheme was the numbers weren't their from within the regular battalions for those wanting to try out.
As I said, just my 2cents worth (more like 5cents with the amount I've written!!)
Take care

Smiddy

Huey14
12-13-2004, 06:36
Oh shit, the Aussies have arrived :D You're just lucky the third ODI was called off there Ocker.

On topic, my understanding is that here a soldier can't be turned down from going to Selection by his Officers, unless they're deploying. I understand.

A Logs guy just passed Selection BTW.

QRQ 30
12-13-2004, 08:45
Time for a VFOG to jump in..

In the beginning Special Forces Chain of Command went from SWC straight to the Theater Command. In the States: CONARC. It then went to JUWTF and up through the State Department. Local commanders, Gen Paul D, Adams CG Ft. Bragg and XV!!! Abn Corps comes immediately to mind., resented having us for Quarters and Rations while having no operational control.

Another problem was that Special Forces was not a Branch or Career field. Officers would come in for a short tour and then return to their Branch. To do otherwise was career suicide. As a result, good career officers were rare. Most were ticket punchers.

The rest I read from other posters is just the normal "sour grapes" attitude of those who fail to measure up. I don't know but I would now guess that the opposite situation exists for the Officer Corps. Special Forces is probably siphoning off the cream of the Career Officers.

RHRP
12-13-2004, 23:26
Huey14.

We've been here for awhile mate - just been in my LUP doing some Recon :eek: !!!

Cheers

Smiddy

Huey14
12-14-2004, 00:00
Fair enough mate, welcome aboard :D

Max Power
12-14-2004, 10:21
Speaking from personal experience and the perspective of an infantryman in the 82nd, there are a couple of understandable reasons. When our CSM sees a guy going to selection, more often than not, he's an above-average soldier, one that adds a lot to the unit, and would hurt to lose him. Knowing that he is an above average soldier, he knows that there is a much higher probability that he WILL be "lost" to SF, as opposed to Joe Shitbag that's going. So he does everything he can to talk guys out of it. But once he receives official word that he's going, he KNOWS he can't do anything about it. Much of the flack and harassment comes from the company level on down in an effort to make it seem, to CSM, that they're doing everything they can to keep a squared away soldier, with a lot of combat experience, in the unit.

Of course, you run across the occasional PSG/SL that tells his guys, "You want out of this unit? You are sure you want to go SF? Good, go for it, get the fuck outta here, cause we will deploy again, and it sucks to be here in garrison. I'll back you 110% and do whatever you need me to do to make it happen." And, deep down (I've seen it personally) the CSM is happy to see guys trying to make a better career for themselves in the Army, he just hates losing good guys with a passion. Which is understandable.

Kuri
12-15-2004, 03:39
Speaking from personal experience and the perspective of an infantryman in the 82nd, there are a couple of understandable reasons. When our CSM sees a guy going to selection, more often than not, he's an above-average soldier, one that adds a lot to the unit, and would hurt to lose him. Knowing that he is an above average soldier, he knows that there is a much higher probability that he WILL be "lost" to SF, as opposed to Joe Shitbag that's going. So he does everything he can to talk guys out of it. But once he receives official word that he's going, he KNOWS he can't do anything about it. Much of the flack and harassment comes from the company level on down in an effort to make it seem, to CSM, that they're doing everything they can to keep a squared away soldier, with a lot of combat experience, in the unit.

Of course, you run across the occasional PSG/SL that tells his guys, "You want out of this unit? You are sure you want to go SF? Good, go for it, get the fuck outta here, cause we will deploy again, and it sucks to be here in garrison. I'll back you 110% and do whatever you need me to do to make it happen." And, deep down (I've seen it personally) the CSM is happy to see guys trying to make a better career for themselves in the Army, he just hates losing good guys with a passion. Which is understandable. Gentlemen, I truly appreciate the input. My intent was to find more knowledgeable sources to pose this question to and you guys have helped alot. Thanks again.

12B4S
12-17-2004, 00:50
Outstanding question Kuri... spans the decades. (Mr Harsey knew that :) ) Even going back to my time. First, the replies you have received from these men are dead on,although I really don't have much experience about the heart of your question. As far as I knew in the late 60's, early 70's it didn't exist. No doubt it did, unfortunatley #%$#@ politics have ALWAYS been a gigantic factor in alllllll militaries since day one.

Anyway, I'm straying... hmmmm going to stray again... just a bit. Even from my day there was that crap, just from going leg to Airborne.

K, I'll cool it now..... but I do have some ideas for a couple new threads. ;)

uboat509
12-17-2004, 02:08
The 82nd seems to harbor a great deal of animosity towards the SF community. I have several buddies who came from there and most of them have the same story, "When I told them that I was going to selection they tried to (threaten/coerce/cajole) me into not going. After I came back from selection they took away my (squad/team/section) and treated me like crap." I heard the word traitor bandied about quit abit as well. Another buddy of mine was told by his Squadron commander "there is nothing special about Special Forces." Granted this is all anecdotal but there does seem to be a pattern. One interesting thing that I have seen is that I have not met anyone who came out of a non-combat arms MOS who got a ration of crap from their COC it seems to mostly come from the combat arms.

12B4S
12-18-2004, 23:06
uboat509..... Don't know about now, but when I was at Bragg that was definately the case and sure doubt it's changed. I was there in 1969. At that time the riggers in the 82nd packed all the chutes for SF at Bragg, at least those of us in training. There was a time for several weeks or so, there was this rash of malfunctions. An investigation was conducted and they found a couple 82nd riggers were, well.... rigging chutes tagged for SF... TO... malfunction.

There was also a SHORT period of time, where somewhere up thier chain of command some officer was offering 82nd guys a 3 day pass if they brought in a beret ( the beret itself). Notice. I said "SHORT"? Wellllll one of our officers upped it one. He told us if we bring back an 82nd soldier, we would get a 3 day pass. That was the end of stolen berets.





:D

RANGER X
12-25-2004, 19:46
Kuri,

I was just relieved of my job as a Platoon Sergeant for volunteering. I am in the 82nd and a Senior SFC.

Reaper I just came across this thread after I PM'd you. It hits home. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to All.

RANGER X

QRQ 30
12-25-2004, 20:07
Kuri,

I was just relieved of my job as a Platoon Sergeant for volunteering. I am in the 82nd and a Senior SFC.

Reaper I just came across this thread after I PM'd you. It hits home. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to All.

RANGER X

As long as you were relieved without prejudice, it makes sense, The platoon needs a PSG who will be there in the event of deployment. When you become a known or presumed loss, you effectiveness decreases.

RANGER X
12-25-2004, 21:03
QRQ 30,

Absolutely. I was aware of the risk before I dropped my paperwork. The opportunity presented itself to me after I presumed it was to late. The Recruiters contacted me first and informed me that I fit the criteria that they were looking for. I am not pointing fingers or placing blame on anyone, but merely encouraging one to be aware of the consequences before volunteering. The whole known and presumed loss to the unit makes perfect sense. As far as predjudicial well I will save that subject for another time. Take care.

Ski

NousDefionsDoc
12-25-2004, 21:33
Good incentive not to quit.

Kuri
12-25-2004, 22:38
Good luck, and thanks for sharing your experiences.

magician
12-26-2004, 02:34
When I was a young man in the 2d Ranger Battalion, many, many years ago, there was a bias against SF, a cultural thing, as SF was viewed as "slack," a haven for longhairs, guys who wore sunglasses, cruised around with their hands in their pockets, and who sometimes called their officers by their first names while they squatted around fires with tribal forces that they were working with in godforsaken geographical cul-de-sacs of the third world.

Sounded good to me.

I was lucky, though, as I had guys like Roland Nuqui to look up to, and Greg Gardner, and Ron Braughton, and Frank Wallace, who had all come from SF backgrounds. Nuqui, as you guys know, had run recon. Gardner had been an SF medic, Braughton had been with Project 404, and Wallace had worked with Braughton at Det A. So, these guys all influenced me, and corrected my false impressions, and helped me realize that the biased impression that ran rampant through the ranks was incorrect.

For me, SF was the natural progression of a military evolution as a professional soldier. I was subjected to pressure not to go to SF, of course, but I was intent on it, and after all, the choice was mine.

Later, I became aware of the pressures that others suffered. When I went to IOBC, I was hanging out with Kevin Egan, and met a platoon leader in 3d Ranger Battalion who was ostracized pretty hard when he put in his packet. When I went to the 18A course, there was a guy there who had gone with 3d Bat to Just Cause, and had made the combat jump onto Tocumen, and HE had been given a pretty rough time.

As you guys know, there is a close relationship, for various reasons, between the Ranger Regiment and other special operations units. Those other units also happen to procure a lot of their talent from the ranks of SF. Why there is such a bias against SF among Rangers is something that I really do not understand.

I used to believe that it was cultural, that SF represented the antithesis of many superficial things held dear within the old Battalions, and later, the Regiment, like haircuts, no sunglasses, no hands in the pockets, extreme discipline, etc.....but after I was in SF myself, I realized that hair is just hair, it grows out, and can be cut in a heartbeat, according to the dictates of the mission.....pockets exist for a reason, and if you put your hands in them it does not mean that you lack discipline.

In fact, discipline is in the heart, it is derived from your professionalism, and the discipline of the Ranger Battalions was perfect for its role, for the men in its ranks, who are typically much younger than guys in SF.

SF is different.

In retrospect....I think that there was a strata of old NCOs in the Ranger Battalions who just never went SF, for whatever reason....they were too "old school"....something put them off.....who the hell knows. Then you had a class of officers who recognized that they would lose their best and brightest, most independent-thinking sergeants, to SF....and of course that would not be a good thing, for them, thinking parochially, thinking only in terms of their fiefdoms....and there was the effect on discipline, which Rangers always had to guard against, even when they were working with other special ops units, with their long hair, their sunglasses, their non-standard equipment, methods, tactics, and ways of interacting with one another.

Rangers are elite light infantry. They have to operate that way. Their traditions run deep.

SF is SF. We are not infantry. We can operate alone, in pairs, in split teams, in any of a variety of permutations. Our missions are wildly different.

Different strokes.

I myself believed then, and I believe now, that SF can get some stellar candidates out of the Ranger Regiment. Rangers have an op tempo that is unparalleled elsewhere in the Army, and guys who spend years there get seriously experienced and seasoned. These days, with the long tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, SF will benefit, getting an even better selection of seasoned professionals from the rest of the Army, but the Ranger Regiment will still provide some great candidates, considering the types of missions that they do, and the sorts of mission packages that they participate in.

I do not think that the rivalry will ever completely go away.

It is cultural, and after all, we cannot expect mere men to be mature, reasoned, sensible, and to always see the larger picture.

Can we?

Kuri
12-26-2004, 05:52
Magician, outstanding post. My intent was to find out if anyone else out there has gone through what I'm currently experiencing (my leadership's attitude towards me has changed since I informed them that I will be headed to Selection).
I've decided to use it as one more reason not to fail. This thread wasn't meant to try to G2 anything or get a leg up on what's going to happen at SFAS, I just wanted some guidance on how to deal with the time in between now and when I report to Fort Bragg. I almost feel obligated to thank everyone personally who contributed to this thread because the quality of your posts have helped me tremendously. Guys, thanks again.

magician
12-26-2004, 10:02
brother, I am sorry that you are being subjected to such parochial, short-sighted pressures. We are all in the Army. Perhaps you ought to remind your chain-of-command of that fact. To perceive what you are daring to do as disloyal is bullshit.

fuck it. Rise above it. Take refuge in professionalism, and focus on silence, and grimness, and extreme competence. You are in a hard profession. It requires hard men. Take solace in the fact that you will soon be surrounded by others like you.

that said, you transit the pipeline as an individual. Yes, you attend the various components of the course as a member of a group, and you are tested on your ability to work with others, and integrate yourself with others and function effectively as a member of a unit. But your evaluations are individual, your test scores are your own, and your graduation will be an individual triumph, though you will never survive the course as a solo agent, without the help of others, or without helping others.

it is a schizoid thing, in a way, but never lose sight of the fact that you alone are responsible for what happens to you, and for how you adapt and overcome the various challenges ahead of you. You will have to lead, and you will have to follow. You will be observed, every step of the way, and you will be stunned at the things that your instructors and evaluators document about you as you go.

consider what is happening now as part of the deal.

you are getting ready to step through a gateway, and there will be many of them, and each one will be different, with different challenges on the other side. Many soldiers that you start this journey with will not finish it with you, or finish it at all. You will learn much about yourself, and I tell you now that regardless of whether you survive the pipeline or not, if you walk through each gateway with an open heart, you can learn incredible lessons, and come out of this process enriched beyond belief.

I wish you much luck.

In some ways, I wish that I were a young man, yet again, and could do it all over again.

The Reaper
12-26-2004, 10:14
Invictus

William Ernest Henley (1849-1903)

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

alphamale
12-26-2004, 12:04
Awesome poem.

The Reaper
12-26-2004, 13:01
Also a great Surefire poster.

Pardon the quality of the quick pic.

TR

NousDefionsDoc
12-26-2004, 13:17
Great post Magic Man. I worked for Frank Wallace somewhere. I can't remember where. Good people.

I like that poster Boss.

C/S PHOENIX 10
12-26-2004, 14:20
Well, another great question. I think the views of the conventional forces Commanders are what ever side of SF we choose to display to them. We as a force have much more exposer to the conventional side than in many years past. Pior to OEF/OIF we had very little inter-action with our bothers on the conventional house, other than what they see walking around main post and such. That has changed much in the last few years. One of the things I truly love about our job is the fact that we have such wide limits to operate within. But at times some of our fellow SF'ers take the freedom to the limits and bring unwanted attention to ourselves. During the early days of OEF, the boys from 5th did an awsome job making things happen using non-standard uniforms and what ever else it took to make it happen. Well the whole issue of non-standard uniforms came to a head because we had guys riding around in GMV's wearing jeans and flip flops. While this may look cool, it does little to effect the battlefield. We took an operational need to mislead our enemies by operations in non US uniforms into a joy ride. To top these kind of actions off some would do this in the faces of the conventional forces. It does not take a degree in astro physics to see that jeans are not a Afghan native dress or wearing them in a US vehicle is a operational need. So commanders throw the bullshit flag, and our commanders didn't have a leg to stand on to justify these actions. Well we squared away ourselves and now have fixed these small short falls. This is just an example of some of the things we do that is not the brightest. We just need to be smart about when and why we do things, just being a "quite professional" will get you by.

Back to the real question. I think that the conventional commanders see the operational need and respect what we bring to the table. I know in my three tours we have done 2 BDE, 3 BN and tons of company and below ops with conventional forces. Always had great feed back from our SF commanders AAR with the conventional CDR's. Many times we would pass off targets to the CONV guys to give them a bone.
This respect was topped off by a high level US civilian leader's visit to Afghanistan. Well we just lost some key assets to the border fight, and during his visit to one of the remote bases where the Marine were base. A marine CDR stood up and stated that SF is the only game in town and the JTF needs to provide them we what ever they need. The cool thing about this was during that visit we were doing an op and there was no SF rep at the briefing, but the conventional guys had the mindset and took up for us while we were gone. Needless to say I was floored when I heard this statement back down the CoC.

We have the responsibilty to take every oppunitity to educate not only our Key leaders but every person we meet from the lowest PVT to 4 star generals. The more they understand not only what we do, but more importantly why, all the bad feelings will be gone.

The Reaper
12-26-2004, 14:43
We have the responsibilty to take every oppunitity to educate not only our Key leaders but every person we meet from the lowest PVT to 4 star generals. The more they understand not only what we do, but more importantly why, all the bad feelings will be gone.

Concur with everything but the last sentence.

Some people will never like SF.

Ever.

Best we can do is to make them accept us for what we can do for them. They still won't like us.

TR

C/S PHOENIX 10
12-26-2004, 21:17
Reaper you are correct some people will always have a bad taste in their mouth. My last statement was a little over the top.

magician
12-27-2004, 00:21
unfortunately, that is true, in my experience.

I was flummoxed by it.

my primary weapon against petty prejudice was silence.

backed up by extreme competence, technical and tactical expertise, and a thorough grounding in doctrine. Confidence, not arrogance. It was important not to rise to defend against every snide comment, or attempted back stabbing.

knowing how a conventional commander would approach a problem was useful. Presenting an unconventional option, even when I knew that they would look askance at it, generally was ok, as long as it relied on surprise, timing, and other force multipliers. It had to be viable, even if it was outlandish. Sometimes the most bizarre concepts turned out to be the best ones.

conventional guys are taught to think a certain way. They are products of their own pipeline.

I remember when I went to the 18A course, I was with a bunch of guys who had all had commands, multiple commands, in conventional units. Bunch of backstabbers, top-blockers, kiss-asses and water walkers and yes-men. All that they cared about, most of them, were their careers. Making general. Most of them made me sick to my stomach. These were the kind of guys who could order a platoon to "take that hill" and shrug off the resulting casualties, as long as they did not have to lead the attack. We were planning an operation, and they were thinking in terms of standard infantry tactics.

I listened for awhile, then said, "why don't we surveil the target to determine when they change their guards, set a trap for their relief, ambush them, replace their relief with our guys, then drive up in their own vans and cruise right into the compound?"

they just looked at me, then laughed. "Nah, that won't work." Others said, "they'll never let us do it." They raised objection after objection. They told me that I thought that I was James Bond.

I said ok, then sat back, and faded back into the background.

When this light colonel came to listen to our COO, he was quiet. He did not say too much. So I seized the opportunity. I told him that we had wargamed another option, and presented it to him.

He was all over it.

And that was the option that we planned, after that.

Those fuckers, the other students, really hated me after that. Envy, I guess. They thought that I was a grandstander.

I just wanted to do the op the way that I thought that it could and should be done.

Well, we went out to the field, and actually did the op. It went pretty well.

I was surprised by some of the peer reports that I received after that op. Some were very negative. Some were very complimentary.

But they illustrated that loathing of SF, and the SF mindset, was very entrenched, and it was entrenched even in the brainpans of the guys who were coming to the 18A course to become team leaders.

SF had changed by that time....this was in '92. I had been gone for awhile, and I had grown up in a different milieu. It was more....corporate, I guess.

brownapple
12-27-2004, 05:59
When I chose to go to SF, I remember the reactions of other Officers I knew (with a few exceptions who all somehow ended up in SF themselves). It was as if I was proving that I really wasn't a professional Officer. A professional Soldier, but not a professional Officer. It's hard to explain, but it certainly was there.

Back then, AD Officers usually spent one tour with SF and then went back to their branch. But not Reserve Officers. Reserve Officers were known to turn down promotions to stay on an ODA, to commute by air in order to stay in SF as they were promoted. In 5 years in C/2/11 SFGA, we had a turnover of less than half a dozen officers... in 5 years.

SF had a particular image, one that Magician described, that attracted many of our members. "Fight smart, not hard", "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't trying" (the latter referring more to finding out of the box solutions than to cheating in an academnic manner). Sometimes it manifest itself in ways that weren't so smart.

My second Team Sergeant had come from the Ranger Battalions. He didn't look for conventional solutions, but he did insist on some things that made a lot of sense that others rebelled against because they were "regular Army". Packing SOPs, standardized weapons and core equipment, using contingency plans, OPORDs, Warning Orders, FRAGOs and not just "winging it".

The mix of those things he insisted on and the willingness to look for unconventional solutions made us better. A lot better.

But that image that we had back then, and the cockiness that some carried with it, that pissed off a lot of the regular Army. And once they made their minds up, it is darn hard to change them. Look at General Schwartzkopf and his attitude towards Special Forces. If at some point, General Schwartzkopf had been favorably impressed by SF in Vietnam instead of unfavorably impressed, think how much more could have been accomplished in Desert Storm.

We have a huge opportunity. SF accomplished what no one outside of our community thought possible in Afghanistan. But it doesn't take very much to reverse that positive, that "atta-boy".

BMT
12-27-2004, 06:56
When the 4th ID was getting ready to move into Cambodia, CCS offered help"we were told they didn't need our kind to fight a war"!! They didn't find SHIT! One battalion from the 101st was attached to the 4th ID, we offered the same help". The only question ask was "is this intel from a US source". We explained the intel had been gathered by US lead RT's. They kicked ass and found more SHIT than the Whole 4th ID.

BMT

21BravoInDaSand
03-30-2009, 19:29
When I was a young man in the 2d Ranger Battalion, many, many years ago, there was a bias against SF, a cultural thing, as SF was viewed as "slack," a haven for longhairs, guys who wore sunglasses, cruised around with their hands in their pockets, and who sometimes called their officers by their first names while they squatted around fires with tribal forces that they were working with in godforsaken geographical cul-de-sacs of the third world.

Sounded good to me.

I was lucky, though, as I had guys like Roland Nuqui to look up to, and Greg Gardner, and Ron Braughton, and Frank Wallace, who had all come from SF backgrounds. Nuqui, as you guys know, had run recon. Gardner had been an SF medic, Braughton had been with Project 404, and Wallace had worked with Braughton at Det A. So, these guys all influenced me, and corrected my false impressions, and helped me realize that the biased impression that ran rampant through the ranks was incorrect.

For me, SF was the natural progression of a military evolution as a professional soldier. I was subjected to pressure not to go to SF, of course, but I was intent on it, and after all, the choice was mine.

Later, I became aware of the pressures that others suffered. When I went to IOBC, I was hanging out with Kevin Egan, and met a platoon leader in 3d Ranger Battalion who was ostracized pretty hard when he put in his packet. When I went to the 18A course, there was a guy there who had gone with 3d Bat to Just Cause, and had made the combat jump onto Tocumen, and HE had been given a pretty rough time.

As you guys know, there is a close relationship, for various reasons, between the Ranger Regiment and other special operations units. Those other units also happen to procure a lot of their talent from the ranks of SF. Why there is such a bias against SF among Rangers is something that I really do not understand.

I used to believe that it was cultural, that SF represented the antithesis of many superficial things held dear within the old Battalions, and later, the Regiment, like haircuts, no sunglasses, no hands in the pockets, extreme discipline, etc.....but after I was in SF myself, I realized that hair is just hair, it grows out, and can be cut in a heartbeat, according to the dictates of the mission.....pockets exist for a reason, and if you put your hands in them it does not mean that you lack discipline.

In fact, discipline is in the heart, it is derived from your professionalism, and the discipline of the Ranger Battalions was perfect for its role, for the men in its ranks, who are typically much younger than guys in SF.

SF is different.

In retrospect....I think that there was a strata of old NCOs in the Ranger Battalions who just never went SF, for whatever reason....they were too "old school"....something put them off.....who the hell knows. Then you had a class of officers who recognized that they would lose their best and brightest, most independent-thinking sergeants, to SF....and of course that would not be a good thing, for them, thinking parochially, thinking only in terms of their fiefdoms....and there was the effect on discipline, which Rangers always had to guard against, even when they were working with other special ops units, with their long hair, their sunglasses, their non-standard equipment, methods, tactics, and ways of interacting with one another.

Rangers are elite light infantry. They have to operate that way. Their traditions run deep.

SF is SF. We are not infantry. We can operate alone, in pairs, in split teams, in any of a variety of permutations. Our missions are wildly different.

Different strokes.

I myself believed then, and I believe now, that SF can get some stellar candidates out of the Ranger Regiment. Rangers have an op tempo that is unparalleled elsewhere in the Army, and guys who spend years there get seriously experienced and seasoned. These days, with the long tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, SF will benefit, getting an even better selection of seasoned professionals from the rest of the Army, but the Ranger Regiment will still provide some great candidates, considering the types of missions that they do, and the sorts of mission packages that they participate in.

I do not think that the rivalry will ever completely go away.

It is cultural, and after all, we cannot expect mere men to be mature, reasoned, sensible, and to always see the larger picture.

Can we?

Insight like this is the reason I will spend upwards of 6 hours reading from this site while putting up with the music at starbucks...gotta get free wifi somewhere at NTC. Thanks for your post.

Richard
03-30-2009, 19:36
FWIW - when the Ranger Battalions were being reconstituted, SF was stripped - many involuntarily - of its Victors to form the nucleus of its expereinced cadre. And so it goes... ;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Mitch
03-30-2009, 22:16
Sounded good to me.

I was lucky, though, as I had guys like Roland Nuqui to look up to, and Greg Gardner, and Ron Braughton, and Frank Wallace, who had all come from SF backgrounds. Nuqui, as you guys know, had run recon. Gardner had been an SF medic, Braughton had been with Project 404, and Wallace had worked with Braughton at Det A. So, these guys all influenced me, and corrected my false impressions, and helped me realize that the biased impression that ran rampant through the ranks was incorrect.


Back at Det A, Braughton, who was an E5 when he first got there, had a nick name - of "Captian America" I won't explain exactly why (it wasn't a name that he particularly liked), but, he was one squared away dude.

I can see how he was able to leave a positive impression on you!

alelks
03-30-2009, 22:25
I'll add my 2 cents worth here.

Look at those people that try and talk you out of doing something that will better yourself like this.

If you take a crab and put him in a pot he will crawl out.

If you take a crab and put him in a pot with other crabs every time he tries to crawl out the other crabs just pull him back down.

If you want a very rewarding experience and get a chance to travel and meet people from all over the world don't let those people hold you back.

AL

Mitch
03-30-2009, 23:02
If you go way back - you've got the Creighton Abrams factor - he took over for Westmorland in Viet Nam. Abrams was the Leg's Leg - Leg all the way. Had his feet planted firmly in the mud and had an unholy hatred for Special Forces.

This all came to a head in the (famous at the time) famous Green Beret Murder Trial. Read about it:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,901231,00.html

The whole case was fictionalized in a Robin Moore book called "Court Martial" (http://www.amazon.com/Court-Martial-Dell-Books-1524/dp/B0014ZJDH6/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238467616&sr=1-4)

A good near/true account - names changed to protect the guilty.

alright4u
03-31-2009, 00:23
BMT has laid out the truth as we offered senior US CO's our INTEL. I ran into all of one US BDE CO who made a point of coming by the launch site with his S-2 major to get briefings from the launch site NCOIC.

Many conventional unit CO's refused to avail themselves of our INTEL. Those that did had Intel to include trails not on maps, plus much more.

futureSoldier
03-31-2009, 00:54
Referring back to the original post... this is still going on today. I had a soldier who was an 18x and got hurt in the pipeline. He did everything right after he got here-consistently scored over a 300 on his pt, always did more than what was asked of him, and most importantly he studied hard and became 1/1 in Arabic. He put his paperwork in for Psyops at the last minute and got picked up. First he was threatened of the consequences of what his life would be here after his packet was pulled from Psyops by the CSM. Then I was threatened by the BC about the same thing and that "If you want to redeem yourself from this, you need to make sure that he does not go through with this-whatever it takes." The anger over this was in the name of stopping him from "deserting the unit" 8 months out from deployment. Point is, the guy did EVERYTHING right and still was almost stopped. It didn't matter that the whole reason he was even serving was to be in the SOF community and that he re-uped as soon as he was picked up by Psyops-everyone won and the unit was still furious that someone would consider to go outside of the norm. He was not stopped-he left and until the BC left I never made it out of the doghouse because I told him that there was nothing I would/could do to stop him.

Side note-this guys good buddy was selected in November. He was treated the same way. Pretty much "you tried to better yourself outside of the unit-go to hell."

OIFVET
03-31-2009, 01:06
I have been experiencing some of the same amimosity from others in my unit just for wanting to go to selection. Honestly, I could give a shit less what people think. I have always been that way. If I am trying to do something to better myself as a person and soldier, why should I care? The way I look at it is; If I concentrate on what others are thinking, I won't have my head in the game..............25 meter target. What others think doesn't matter. We all have a job to do. We all have decisions to make. Those who chose to try out for Sf and made it to graduation, my hats off to you. For those who wish they had but didn't and want to talk shit about those who do............fuck em! That's just my opinion.

Kepler
03-31-2009, 06:20
Ditto here. I have heard everything from that I am very selfish for trying to put my unit in a difficult position to that the Brigade Commander will reclass me to another MOS if I fail to be selected.

The latest is that a request for exception to policy letter was written today to the MG of the Division. Basically it stated that I am mission critical for our upcoming mission to NTC, so I shouldn't be able to attend selection. I won't even get into how false the idea that I am critical is, perhaps they really see it that way.

My understanding is that this should not fly, but I still don't have my orders. Reportedly they are now going to show up on Wednesday. Doesn't give a whole lot of time for any drama to unfold before April SFAS class starts.

Ah well. I just look at it as additional incentive to ... get selected.

Pete
03-31-2009, 06:43
...that the Brigade Commander will reclass me to another MOS if I fail to be selected....... Basically it stated that I am mission critical for our upcoming mission to NTC, so I shouldn't be able to attend selection. .......

Some things never change.

Funny how you're always mission critical to one guy's agenda "Just stay until my time is up" and then when the new guy shows up "I'm new, stay until I get my feet on the ground".

Blitzzz
03-31-2009, 08:16
The reason we are called "special", is the reason the wannabes and "can't bes are hateful and jealous of what they can;t and don't have. Blitzzz

Utah Bob
04-03-2009, 14:44
The regular army has always looked at elite units with a jaundiced eye. My Battalion CO in the 1st Cav in Nam absolutely hated SF. He gave me a hell of a speech when I got to the unit about how useless SF was.
In the 60's, officers with a lot of SF time were not viewed as particularly promotable. SF was not a branch then and too much time in a Group was considered a career killer. I'm glad that changed but I left before it did.
There will always be jealousy and distrust of special units in the military by the mainstream. That's just the way it is.

greenberetTFS
04-03-2009, 16:58
The reason we are called "special", is the reason the wannabes and "can't bes are hateful and jealous of what they can;t and don't have. Blitzzz

You know Blitzzz,You are right on and it was short and sweet and to the point.....Good post......:D

GB TFS :munchin

Cougar6zulu
01-08-2010, 15:49
"The 82nd seems to harbor a great deal of animosity towards the SF community. I have several buddies who came from there and most of them have the same story, "When I told them that I was going to selection they tried to (threaten/coerce/cajole) me into not going. After I came back from selection they took away my (squad/team/section) and treated me like crap." I heard the word traitor bandied about quit abit as well. Another buddy of mine was told by his Squadron commander "there is nothing special about Special Forces." Granted this is all anecdotal but there does seem to be a pattern. One interesting thing that I have seen is that I have not met anyone who came out of a non-combat arms MOS who got a ration of crap from their COC it seems to mostly come from the combat arms."



Got to tell you...... this statement is bullshit..... its across the board at certain echelons

Richard
01-08-2010, 18:39
In my experience, organizations do not like to lose good people and - although petty - they'll often strike out in petulance towards those they see as deserting them or their cause - ain't nothing new - and so it goes...

Richard's jaded $.02 :munchin

MackallResident
01-08-2010, 21:51
I have seen the animosity, and agree that it is more from to TOE unit side, or at least combat arms side. I have been in the infantry, where a few buddies went, and it seemed to me that the junior enlisted caught the most shit, whereas my platoon Sergeant was given an "atta' boy" from the COC.

Fast forward post medical reclass and when my lab tech bud went through he was treated with super amounts of respect and given plenty of time to get his shit together before packing out to Bragg after being selected. This may have been due in part because my CSM at the time was previously at one the SF units within the service.

Since apply for WOFT, some of the NCOs at my unit have made snide remarks about me applying, or going to the "dark side," but only a few have commented past the normal rib poking. One MSG even said that I should be ashamed that I am leaving beind such a promising career as an NCO, and that he thinks I am a quitter.

I feel that some folks just envy SF if for noting else than the cool ambiance and neat toys. I am regular Army, and always have been, I tip my hat and realize that we all have a job to do, and some differ way more than others, that is why you guys are "Special." These nuggets that bad mouth our elite forces probably either did not make the cut, or never had the intestinal fortitude to try out. /ignorance

wet dog
01-09-2010, 01:09
until they need us.

The King of Greece hate Achilles. In our own Civil War between the states, (for you 18xer's the was North vs. South, the North won), Sniper Units, Rangers - Scouts, all hated by regular unit Commanders.

Even in WWII, our force commanders disapproved of OSS, 1st Special Air Service, etc. Seems the Brits always appreciated their Special units.

Desert I, General Scwartzkoph didn't know how to deploy special units. Not until 5th Grp starting showing up with better Intel then the MI, did he finally admit, "SF contributed more to the war then any other single unit". Funny, from a guy who knew of SF in Vietnam. Same with Gen. Powell.

Nothing changes.

blacksmoke
01-21-2010, 16:52
I think there is a positive correlation between people with personal intergrity/courage and those who wish others do well in selection. FWIW

Masochist
01-22-2010, 13:43
Note: I came from a CS unit (MP) initially, so this is another example that the reactions aren't limited to combat arms.

When I decided to finish my degree and join ROTC as an enlisted man, my NCOs ribbed me about "going to the dark side" and losing a good NCO but said that my prior experience would make me a better officer. Some of my fellow lower enlisted, for whatever reason, seemed a little more sincere with their "dark side" comments.

After commissioning and putting in my packet for Selection, I again got mixed reactions from my unit. Those at BN and higher seemed impressed and wished me good luck, my CO and others did the same, while at least one in my PLT was overheard calling me a Judas.

I keep all of those comments with me as I progress, and use them as positive inspiration to complete a lifelong goal. I feel that those who understood my motivation are the ones who wished me well. The source of negativity came from those who were new to the unit, didn't know my history and may have looked at me as abandoning them/the unit they loved.

Danimal18C
01-22-2010, 14:50
yeah, it's funny how conventional units will resent you until they need you. I'm sure the incoming units that see SF guys in theater think we are a bunch of "cowboys" or frown on our unconventional ways of doing EVERYTHING, but in Afghanistan, our ODA built really good rapport with the units around us.... and you better believe, that if a unit got in a TIC or hit an IED, we were the first guys that would get notified. The only unit in the entire province that was out crushin skulls was the ODA, and we started getting this reputation of being the big brother to come to when units couldn't deal with their own crap. It got to the point that our team commander had to tell other units that we are not "Hired Muscle" and that SF is not a support unit for support units. Either way, most of the units liked working with us, and the rapport we built with the Medevac unit essentially saved one of our guys life when he was wounded. The Medevac birds broke all kind of protocol to evac our WIA because of the relationship we had established with them.

A trend that I have found, is that most units hate SF guys in garrison, but love us down range. I would also state there there are a lot of SF guys that are great soldiers down range, but their "unconventional" attitude gets translated as unprofessionalism in garrison.

The other source of contension is that most conventional units don't understand why we do the things we do, or why we are more likely to accept greater risk to accomplish our mission. That lack of understanding becomes animosity.

MackallResident
01-22-2010, 15:45
A trend that I have found, is that most units hate SF guys in garrison, but love us down range. I would also state there there are a lot of SF guys that are great soldiers down range, but their "unconventional" attitude gets translated as unprofessionalism in garrison.

FUnny you mention this. I still keep in touch with the CSM mentioned above, and just a week or so ago on the phone he reiterated to me that I need to always remember that "Professionalism" is never about how shiny(or clean) your boots are, or how crisp those ugly ACU's look, but how well you do what you do.

I would rather eat at a great restaurant with haggerd looking staff than a shitty restaurant whose staff all wear tuxedos and speak french.

Utah Bob
01-23-2010, 10:47
y

A trend that I have found, is that most units hate SF guys in garrison,.

I thought it was just the beret and once the big army all got berets too they would be happy and feel all warm and fuzzy.
Guess not.:munchin

greenberetTFS
01-23-2010, 14:25
I thought it was just the beret and once the big army all got berets too they would be happy and feel all warm and fuzzy.
Guess not.:munchin

UB,I guess it's because we had to "earn" ours where they have it "issued" to them......;)

Big Teddy :munchin

mojaveman
01-23-2010, 14:53
While a member of 5th SFG I can remember a few times when I experienced animosity from non SF personnel while in their presence.

I'll call it plain old jealousy.

Danimal18C
01-23-2010, 15:00
Yeah... my definition of professionalism has always been based on performance, not appearance. Unfortunately, the modern military cares more about the perception of professionalism, than duty. You have members of our military that can't pass a PT test, and can't qualify with their weapon unless someone shoots at their target with them, but as long as they look 670-1... they are professional soldiers. Most SF guys smoke the PT test, qualify expert on multiple weapon systems, but get labled unprofessional because their hair is a little long, or they wear sunglasses on their head. I've never understood this logic, since it's SF that is doing most of the fighting. In both OIF and OEF I saw a lot of conventional units trying to appear busy without actually accomplishing anything.

I call it "standing in the corner and juggling."

I'm certainly not saying that there aren't productive and successful conventional units, but I've noticed a nasty attitude in the military that puts more weight on appearance than performance.

I guess I'll just be that shitbag with the oakleys on his head.

Mitch
01-23-2010, 22:13
"The 82nd seems to harbor a great deal of animosity towards the SF community. "[/U]



Got to tell you...... this statement is bullshit..... its across the board at certain echelons

SF and the AA sharing Fort Bragg (and they were there first), Its like the Navy and the Marines - at sea, no way they are going to get along.

Also - back in my day - everybody that got bounced out of SFTG, for one reason or another, usually ended up in the 82nd. Those guys had to learn to get along with their new AA buddies - one easy way to do that was to bad mouth SF.

rltipton
01-23-2010, 23:30
Conventional animosity toward SF has probably never been topped by the levels of stupidity unleashed upon us during the Haitian Vacation '94-'96 primarily by the 10th Mtn Div commander and his crew. I think Meade was the 2 star. I forget the 1 star's name but he was a booger eating dipshit too and he HATED SF, the Div DCO COL Valenzuela? had a negligent discharge with his 9mm not 10 feet in front of myself and my Team Daddy walking into division HQ one afternoon...a prime example of the level of professionalism at their Division HQ during that time. They had OH58s dedicated to patrolling for SF uniform violations (no shit). They took aerial photographs of cats out without their clay beret on their coconut or without their LBE on and that was it, done deal article 15. Some careers were destroyed down there over friggin uniform violations. It got so bad General Downing, God rest his soul, came down there and told Meade to enjoy his last command because he would be retiring after his trip to Haiti was over.

I saw it again in Afghanistan in 2004. We had a "State" corralled in a village with 1 way out...up the mountain and he was not in a hurry to climb because we had run him hard. The QRF rolled in led by a 10th Mtn Div (again) LTC who decided he was going to not listen to the commander on the ground since it was just an SF Captain... So he put the whole QRF down behind us (well we had already secured it for him...) and started them searching the village even though he was told to drop a squad off up top. Well sure enough dude scooted up the mountain and was gone. We had been on patrol for 11 days, chasing this dude for the last 4 of them, chased him in the snow and ice friggin daily all over the countryside, we finally had him cold, and that turd LTC f***ed it up in a HUGE way. Ugh...

Hmm now I recall another incident with a turd full bird from the 173rd in Iraq too getting into a d*** measuring contest with COL Cleveland about who was who. The first time his troops got in contact (and it was very minor) he backed his ass up and guarded our shit until he had 100% of his stuff on the ground, which took until the shooting was over before he did anything substantial (as far as I recollect) with his brigade of combat *cough* jumpers LOL....so anyway. Gold stars on jumpwings for Iraq are probably already on another thread, but always worth a sneer...

Yeah I've seen conventional jealousy/hatred toward SF a time or two, but I must admit I saw the complete inverse the majority of my career and had overall good relationships with conventional folks with the exceptions of a few turds here and there.

Light_Fighter
01-29-2010, 19:40
I can't say about animosity towards SF units in general, or at the higher (BDE and up) levels, all I can comment on is how my company command viewed my volunteering. First I'll give the negative, then I'll try to rationalize it a bit.

After telling them that I was volunteering to go to SFAS I was instantly made the unit armorer. This basically killed my training time by making me always on call and having to miss unit PT to come in and open the arms room for various reasons. They also moved me from my duty position as a squad leader in my MOS to put me in HQ for arms room administration. Basically, I went from filling a 20 level slot in my MOS to a non-MTOE'd slot. Then they added a couple more additional duties to take my time and resisted my going to work out with the SF recruiters for PT (when I had the time and didn't have to be at the arms room). It all culminated when a last minute (okay, not last minute, but it came on the training schedule after I had volunteered) field excercise caused my CO & my 1SG to call my recruiting station to tell them I couldn't go because I had to go to the field.

All this makes it seem like they hated me for going, but I believe they had good intentions. For the unit, at least. As an NCO I can understand the desire of CO's and 1SG's to keep the exemplary NCO's. This is something I've read mentioned a few times already. Also, there is the fear that if one person goes and gets selected then other people may decide to see if it's for them. If multiple people go, the best will be selected and then, to them, it's like their best troops are being syphoned away by SF. Every commander understands that his unit will be deploying soon, and none of them want to lose NCO's (or officers) who have combat experience, are highly motivated and disciplined, and score well on PT tests. Yet these are just the soldiers who if they go to SFAS will likely get selected.

Ultimately, it comes down to your individual unit command. Some will be for it, some neutral, and some against. Regardless of how your command acts, they are probably not against you personally (probably not, there are certain cases...), they just want what's best for their unit, and you are probably among the best in their unit. What I'm trying to say is, try to see it from the other sides point of view before you assume that your unit is trying to screw you.

Surgicalcric
01-29-2010, 19:55
Failure To Follow Simple Instructions...

You need to go back and re/read the email you received when you registered here and give it another try.

Here is a hint, your first post shouldn't have been in this thread.

Crip

Dozer523
01-29-2010, 20:14
. As an NCO I can understand the desire of CO's and 1SG's to keep the exemplary NCO's. . . . If multiple people go, the best will be selected and then, to them, it's like their best troops are being syphoned away by SF. Every commander understands that his unit will be deploying soon, and none of them want to lose NCO's (or officers) who have combat experience, are highly motivated and disciplined, and score well on PT tests. And especially the modest ones. Still waitin' on that intro :munchin Oh, boy. . . :cool:

Blitzzz
01-31-2010, 12:29
This is not unit specific. Most of the army units that think much of themselves are always "threatened" by the supposed "brain drain". Particularly with every joint training exercise they are always embarrassed by the teams crapping on their best efforts. We are the brain drain ..."Duhh"! That leaves them in awe, and jealous. We are the Apex of the warrior societies and they, despite their best efforts, are not.
That is why it is so hard to get anything from them and we generally "take" it.

In essence they hate what they are not...and can't have.

wet dog
01-31-2010, 13:14
This is not unit specific. Most of the army units that think much of themselves are always "threatened" by the supposed "brain drain". Particularly with every joint training exercise they are always embarrassed by the teams crapping on their best efforts. We are the brain drain ..."Duhh"! That leaves them in awe, and jealous. We are the Apex of the warrior societies and they, despite their best efforts, are not.
That is why it is so hard to get anything from them and we generally "take" it.

In essence they hate what they are not...and can't have.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iINt2XYJ2Bk&feature=related

sleepyhead4
01-31-2010, 15:08
Having come from a conventional infantry battalion not more than 4 years ago, I was very disappointed in my interactions with 2 infantry battalions in Iraq. The conventional command group rarely supported us (operation/service support) but would constantly ask for our intelligence. And even when we did provide the necessary intelligence, they were very hesitant in backing our kinetic operations. Needless to say, my opinion of my former branch (infantry) was tainted by my experience in Iraq.

mark46th
01-31-2010, 22:35
In SE Asia, SF was running indig outfits up to battalion size. It scared the hell out of RA officers when they saw Enlisted men training, equipping and running combat operations on that level...

head
01-31-2010, 22:49
Some regular army commanders recognize and appreciate what SF can provide. LTC Mennes had a battalion of 82nd and, upon entering the AO, was "looking for work" in A-stan a couple years ago. He wanted to hit the ground running so he went straight to the SF SOTF - smart move, since we ended up having each of his companies get up to speed at the firebase I was at, use our ranges, stay in our compound, each of the leadership got briefed on the AO, and ended up getting to patrol with the teams. Aside from them eating all our food, the teams were happy with their new "partner force."

Now, if it's the same guy, I hear LTC Mennes is now BC of 1st. Ranger Bn. so he probably has a different mindset than most CO's anyways. Very down-to-earth and even listened to young SF buck sergeants like myself at the time.

Thurman
02-09-2010, 00:07
As a civilian, I always wondered about the inevitable rivalries and animosities between units, especially SOF and conventional

I particularly always wondered about the dynamic between the Rangers and SF-- I didn't realize it ran as deep as some of the posts on here illustrate

Koa18B
03-15-2010, 18:36
I do agree that there is a lot of things that can lead to an adverse opinions on a soldier deciding to pursue becoming a QP. I had to fight my way just go get out of "Delta Co." Infantry. I had started as the normal gun truck driver, I had requested to go to Air Assault School prior to deploying to Iraq. My CO said "Why? We drive trucks we are not gonna be assaulting in ever you wanna be high speed or something." I had told him that I understood that but I wanted to learn more about the sling-loading operations and the other things that can come into play for a gun-truck in an Air Assault division. He agreed sent me 3 weeks later to AA School. About 5 months in Iraq I was pinned my E-4 and was no longer the "Cherry Driver" I was first truck's gunner and not just lowest man in the truck.

After that first deployment our Battalions HHC Scout's Section was looking to expand to add 4 people. I had been ridiculed so many times by everyone from my squad leader to the platoon sergeant. Eventually even my 1SG who himself had came from a sniper team out at 25th ID. I took it that I was valuable to the team and in one perspective I respected and felt honored I was a valued man in the team but I wanted to express that this is my career and the moves I was making were not for them it was for me, That I appreciated all the things I was taught.

Making it into Scouts had made so many more school's and training events possible. They had sent all 4 of us that made it into the team over to Airborne School and after my deployment with them 2 of us went to Ranger School together. But low and behold once I came back I had been offered to go to Pathfinder School as part of me Re-up. The CO had "lost" my last APFT Score, and had lost my packet for about a month but once it was "found" all was well.

Getting the invite to come to Pathfinder company had to of been the best thing that could have happened in my efforts to become a QP. For numerous reasons, one being the tight knit community, another was that they were very pro-active in attaining your goals and values as a soldier. It was not at all about medals and badges for me. I knew that I wanted to become a QP and felt that I was more mature then those I saw in the recruiter offices that were 17-19yrs old that had just signed 18X contracts and thought they were someone important and somehow better then the 11B sitting next to them.

It seem's that because there is the 160th at Campbell as well as 5th that many commanders in Infantry and Aviation units always have a big bucket of negative shit to pour on you.

My point is, You will always incure some hindering factors especially in 82nd and 101st. For whatever reason being that is just the reality. I had mentioned and had so many conversations with others in SFAS about how long they had waited and how twisted the chain of command had been to them, yet how thankful we all were to just have made it that far. The negative opinions and the doubters can work against you but they can push you even further.

I have always come back to my old D.Co every time I returned from a deployment or when I finished a school. I see my old platoon Sergeant and I let him know though I didn't stay it is because of the lessons learned as a young private that I am accomplishing my goals and dreams.

Deadhead 63A1
03-17-2010, 16:54
When I put my packet in as an Infantry Lieutenant, my Battalion Commander was very supportive but the Battalion S3 and Battalion XO both had some snide comments. I remember the S3 asked why I would want to "give up the opportunity to be a Company Commander and lead 150 steely-eyed killers so that I could be a glorified squad leader." Well, as a "glorified squad leader" I was the senior advisor for an 800-man Iraqi SWAT unit that got regular calls from the Prime Minister to respond to contingencies all over the country. During that deployment, that former S3 was a Battalion Commander working up north of me. He had less guys under his control and was working a far smaller geographical area.

Just goes to show how little some folks know about what we really do.

Riott_Earp
03-22-2010, 10:45
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iINt2XYJ2Bk&feature=related

Gotta love Donald, I wonder how much practice preceded to get those actors to do a correct column left. If it was anything like my first FST drilling ceremony practice, I would have loved to seen it.

The Reaper
03-22-2010, 11:50
Gotta love Donald, I wonder how much practice preceded to get those actors to do a correct column left. If it was anything like my first FST drilling ceremony practice, I would have loved to seen it.


RE:

You need to read the rules at the top of this forum.

Get back to me when you have.

TR

Plasma Snake
05-14-2010, 11:58
So, how about all the soldiers who serve in Airborne divisions due to injury or washout during Selection? Do they face any less resistance when they reapply the following year, or are things much the same regardless of what kind of contract got them there?

SOT-Aj KIA 4th July 2010
05-26-2010, 21:54
Rangers, Delta, Recon, same thing. .

It's not the same thing at all. Each of those organizations have a different mission and purpose.

The Reaper
05-27-2010, 09:22
Its the SF that actually make the difference. who wouldn't be a hater, u guys are the best at what u guys do, and u take no glory in doing so. we are protected mainly because of u guys who take the risk of deploying in a 6 man team with no back up so the regular infantry units can capatalize on what u guys do. i to 1 day will hopefully be in ur shoes. as u all know i am joining the marines my mos is infantry 0311 with the intent of hopefully being recognized with an application from force recon. Rangers, Delta, Recon, same thing. we have what we have because of people with balls like u. i just wanted to throw this out there. thats all. good luck guys, may God be with you, and hopefully i will join ur world 1 day to come.

hulk:

I do not know where to start with your post, so I will make it simple.

Post again without putting an introduction in the right place, or without using proper English, and you will be banned4lif from this site. Your understanding of SOF and our service roles is also lacking.

I am not impressed. Work on it.

TR

Green Light
05-27-2010, 19:31
The ability to learn a language might be the first problem he'd have. English was a 0/0/0. :D

Peregrino
05-27-2010, 20:40
Actually I think his first hurdle was the ASVAB. After reading his posts, I'm not sure he could have qualified as one of McNamara's 100,000.

EasyIan
05-27-2010, 21:58
What an Ignorant response. I wonder how long into basic he'll be before he realizes that he wasn't cut out for military service. I'll give it a month. That's when he'll figure out he's the shithead and the other recruits don't like him.

Of course I could always contact some old friends on the Island to ensure his realization is more swift :D

The Reaper
05-28-2010, 01:57
Stud, if you come back and read this, let me break it down for you.

You are coming across as a whiny little shit with an attitude and an IQ below room temperature. You cannot even seem to read, write, or follow simple instructions. I am surprised that you can actually get out of bed in the morning and get dressed without adult assistance.

You do not understand many things, the most obvious of which is when to shut your pie hole and listen.

SF is never going to be desperate enough to select and graduate ignorant, loud-mouthed, disrespectful little turds like you.

If you make it out of Basic Training, you will have demonstrated the Corps' tolerance and ability to train almost anything. Frankly, I suspect that you will quickly be the recipient of a blanket party by your fellow trainees shortly after you arrive and open your suck. Refer to "Full Metal Jacket" for an introductory preview of this technique. I think they will ensure that you have an emotional epiphany.

Hope your time here has been educational, I suspect that it has not and you will suffer the same fate again elsewhere.

Adios, biotch!

TR

RoninSpartan
05-29-2010, 19:21
I think this is Army Wide. You will always have haters. Seniors in the regular Army hate seeing their subordinates surpassing them.

kgoerz
05-30-2010, 18:14
The Marines do. But I'm working on it.

em_twofourzero
07-11-2010, 17:23
My background was eight years AD in the Armor community, before I decided that I wanted to do something different, and better. During those eight years, I had the opportunity to work with SF teams several times over two OIF deployments. From my lofty perch as an E-3,4,5 I witnessed pretty much zero resentment from folks in my unit(s) toward the SF guys. Possibly it was because we had completely different jobs to carry out (which albeit sometimes complimented each other) so there was no feeling of jealousy or distrust. Our leadership liked having them around for their agility in sector and willingness to share intel, and for the support assets they brought with them. They liked having us around (I'm assuming) for our ability to promptly bring a huge amount of direct fire and intimidation to the party.

When I decided to attempt my hand at SF and go to SFAS, I received no static whatsoever from my PSG up to my BCO. And this was in Korea, in an Armor unit, with a bi-annual gunnery looming. Sure I'd get the little prods when I'd be rucking on a Saturday and doing PT on my own nearly every night to prepare, but as far as I could tell, it was all in jest. I got a lot of "good luck"s on my way out.

When I got back after being selected, I got a pretty warm reception. I think my 1SG's exact words were "Good job, now get a goddamn haircut before Joe sees you." Shit, I'll take that! My PSG even let me do PT on my own for the next week, which was great because walking was hard enough, let alone running. I'd get plenty of people asking me questions, though. The majority of those from NCOs were of the "What, you don't like tanks anymore? Why you wanna change jobs?" variety. If they didn't know, then I'd never be able to make them understand. Most of the junior enlisted just wanted to know what SFAS is like and how I got ready for it.

So, from my experience in Big Army Combat Arms, there was little or no hate toward SF. However, talking to a lot of the former Rangers I work with now, their old outfits had a completely different attitude, as was described in previous posts. I think in the end, my feeling is "who gives a shit what others think?" If they want to play ball with you, then it will only help both players. If not, well, fuck em. I just feel bad for the dudes who are potentially awesome SF candidates who get held back by the idiotic politics.

Guntry Kong
08-24-2010, 19:49
I think most of the "hatred" is in fact the 82nd. I don't know maybe it is "I would'ves or should'ves", but what I am getting from my experience and most of my friends experiences is that in combat arms units its a selfish game and they (highers SFC-CSM) worry about their reputation with the highers than any their soldiers desire to improve themselves, and careers. In my unit it's ok to leave guys behind who are going to PRC or Ranger during JRTC support of another unit but if someone is going to SFAS "oh well they are staying in the unit that's why they are staying back and training and your not, and I understand that your going to SFAS 4 days after we get back but you will be there in LA with us." But thats the "Division" for you. I have come to realize that alot times in the unit actions speak louder than words. The whole we support you is said and the back stabbin starts as soon as you decide you want something better outside of DIV. Oh well we think you should stay you're in the top 5 for the next school and we know we've screwed you over on promotions and other things but if you stay and give up your dreams to be better, than it will be better here we promise. Don't go SF you dont have the mentality for it or you gotta run 10mi at a 5min/mi pace. But no matter what I am continuing on with my dream. Karma is a mother

taskforceiron
08-25-2010, 16:29
There was no animosity towards the Special Forces in the 101st or any of the other units I served with.

Utah Bob
08-26-2010, 19:52
The Army is a large machine incapable of hate or love.

Individuals are another matter.

Todd 1
08-27-2010, 02:25
There was no animosity towards the Special Forces in the 101st or any of the other units I served with.


I agree, while I was at Campbell, I worked with 5th SFG on two occasions. The first was EIB train-up and testing which was conducted by my unit (2 Bde), the second was a CAS range that was taught and conducted by 5th group. Although both of my experiences were limited to the squad and platoon level I didn’t notice any animosity between the units either, quite the opposite.

The QP’s who participated were not only good students (they all earned the EIB), they were also great teachers, the SF instructors made it easy to learn and the night CAS live fire was f-ing awesome. Good times:D

Aceshigh
08-27-2010, 02:52
The Army is a large machine incapable of hate or love.

Individuals are another matter.


During my only deployment to Iraq (so far), I was occasionally on gate guard when a 4 truck convoy of SF guys came through. I have no idea why they were there but every time they came through the HMMWV gunners waved hello and tossed a rip-it or two the guards way.

Needless to say I was a huge fan of these guys, I think everyone at the outpost was, even though they only passed through a few times.

The few people I met who had an issue with SF were the same people who had something bad to say about everyone and everything.

Among most of the folks I worked with I cannot remember any negative predispositions towards SF.

Mitch
08-27-2010, 03:40
I can only relate to the SF of more than a generation ago and depending where you were – you could have a different impression. For instance – at Bragg, whether or not, you were feeling disrespected by other tenant units, it didn’t begin to outweigh the impression that many of us had, who served in regular SF line units (3rd, 6th, 7th), that JFK Center had no respect for us at all – we were all just detail fodder.

I know they were just appeasing the powers that be at XVIII Corps, but they could have taken a firmer stand I think – they didn’t. One month out of three saw us on Post Support where we were routinely misused in nonsense details that weren’t necessarily demeaning, but were just so commonplace, so un SFlike.

So – when guys from the 82nd or other units saw us picking up pine cones virtually everywhere on post, or guarding the PX or driving forklifts in the main post warehouse, or shoveling coal, or sorting books in the post library, or issuing cues and chalk at the Service Club (the list goes on and on), they couldn’t help but lose a little respect. Take that – and add the jealousy factor that some had and it was a good bet that we would not get along – we tended not to.

Never had that impression at Devens.

wet dog
08-27-2010, 18:04
In SE Asia, SF was running indig outfits up to battalion size. It scared the hell out of RA officers when they saw Enlisted men training, equipping and running combat operations on that level...

Mark, are you saying an American SF soldiers, SSG/E6 type could be a host nation company commander?

The thought escapes me.

andrewa
08-27-2010, 19:41
There was no animosity towards the Special Forces in the 101st or any of the other units I served with.


That reminds me of the time I was invited to go to a Cisco networking class at 5th Group. The class was a week long and I must have heard about 50 comments on how we had our own compound away from everyone and they were located in the middle of post. I almost felt like apologizing. I think the close proximity at Fort Campbell helps keep the animosity level low. Other Group locations that have their own compounds might feel the animosity level a little higher. I know my unit always had great respect for SF, part of the reason why I am so interested in applying for SFAS.

greenberetTFS
08-27-2010, 19:46
I can only relate to the SF of more than a generation ago and depending where you were – you could have a different impression. For instance – at Bragg, whether or not, you were feeling disrespected by other tenant units, it didn’t begin to outweigh the impression that many of us had, who served in regular SF line units (3rd, 6th, 7th), that JFK Center had no respect for us at all – we were all just detail fodder.

I know they were just appeasing the powers that be at XVIII Corps, but they could have taken a firmer stand I think – they didn’t. One month out of three saw us on Post Support where we were routinely misused in nonsense details that weren’t necessarily demeaning, but were just so commonplace, so un SFlike.

So – when guys from the 82nd or other units saw us picking up pine cones virtually everywhere on post, or guarding the PX or driving forklifts in the main post warehouse, or shoveling coal, or sorting books in the post library, or issuing cues and chalk at the Service Club (the list goes on and on), they couldn’t help but lose a little respect. Take that – and add the jealousy factor that some had and it was a good bet that we would not get along – we tended not to.

Never had that impression at Devens.

Mitch,

Didn't experience in the early 60's what you've had endured.......... 82nd guys wanted to be "Green Berets" and looked up to being one,quite a few re-upped for SF...... This is also very true for 12th Group enlistment when I was in the reserves.......We have always been the "Crem del la Creme" of the Armed Forces and always will be............De Oppresso Liber.

Big Teddy :munchin

Mitch
08-28-2010, 03:57
Mitch,

Didn't experience in the early 60's what you've had endured.......... 82nd guys wanted to be "Green Berets" and looked up to being one,quite a few re-upped for SF...... This is also very true for 12th Group enlistment when I was in the reserves.......We have always been the "Crem del la Creme" of the Armed Forces and always will be............De Oppresso Liber.

Big Teddy :munchin

Things changed obviously in the late 60s at Bragg. There was a surplus of SF by then - all piling up on Smoke Bomb Hill. Too many NCOs with nothing much to do - so they had to be creative with finding us details. We were farmed out to just about anyone that wanted a warm body, for anything imaginable.
I fortunately finally escaped from Bragg - and successfully avoided a PCS there from then on.

Telecustom
08-29-2010, 08:53
I actually have a SGM right now that is actively discouraging quality NCOs from even going to selection.

taskforceiron
08-29-2010, 17:17
I actually have a SGM right now that is actively discouraging quality NCOs from even going to selection.

He probably just does not want to lose his best soldiers to SF. Only you have enough insight to know whether that is correct or not. Has he ever said anything in a negative manner towards SF?

Telecustom
08-30-2010, 20:44
He probably just does not want to lose his best soldiers to SF. Only you have enough insight to know whether that is correct or not. Has he ever said anything in a negative manner towards SF?


True that he doesn't want to lose a good Soldier. But it runs deeper than that. He has very little respect for SF. He doesn't consider an 18Z as having any true leadership experience because they lead smaller units of men. I have actually heard the comment "They aren't real leaders, because they haven't commanded anything bigger than a squad.

I have found on several occasions people see my SF patch and instantly get an anti-SF mentality. I was just a support guy but spent 4 yrs in GRP and am very defensive toward the bad mouthing from the Regular Army. With the change in the way RA fights and the fact that they are conducting some more traditional SF FID missions, the RA guys think they can do it all without SF. In fact, they look at GRP as a money pit and ODAs as undisciplined trouble makers that actually handicap RA units’ ability to do their jobs.

The level of disrespect is sickening.

Surgicalcric
08-30-2010, 21:44
...I have actually heard the comment "They aren't real leaders, because they haven't commanded anything bigger than a squad...

I suppose leading Company (+) size element(s) of host nation soldiers into combat as a SSG (squad leader position) isnt leading... :rolleyes:

Telecustom
08-31-2010, 05:55
I suppose leading Company (+) size element(s) of host nation soldiers into combat as a SSG (squad leader position) isnt leading... :rolleyes:

They just don't understand the actual mission, they just see the sunglasses and make their opinion from there.

ksboi
09-03-2010, 09:35
This was a great read! A friend got back from selection while I was gone to 25B school, and our unit was all for it. I was proud of the guy for making it happen for himself. Once I told the unit I am in now that I was doing the research about it, all I got was, "pssssshh you will never make it", "you don't run enough", or the "I was going to do it but..." The do not see all the reading ive been doing. I am on this site reading and googling things. The hours I put into the gym during lunch of doing 15 reps of exercises, the pullups(hate em) I try to rep out to get ready for SFAS. Sorry to rant on about it.

GSquared
09-07-2010, 13:23
This was a great read! A friend got back from selection while I was gone to 25B school, and our unit was all for it. I was proud of the guy for making it happen for himself. Once I told the unit I am in now that I was doing the research about it, all I got was, "pssssshh you will never make it", "you don't run enough", or the "I was going to do it but..." The do not see all the reading ive been doing. I am on this site reading and googling things. The hours I put into the gym during lunch of doing 15 reps of exercises, the pullups(hate em) I try to rep out to get ready for SFAS. Sorry to rant on about it.

People who hate on others for going to selection are just jealous. Every single one of them. I've never gone, but I've never felt the need to bag on anyone for wanting to go, because sometimes you'd be surprised at who's tough enough to make it through.

Let the haters hate, and let it motivate you. I love when someone tells me I can't do something, it makes me work even harder for it.

Keep on keepin' on, bro, and I'm sure you'll make it.

As far as "Regular Army" hating SF, I know as a support guy, I've encountered people from conventional units. A lot of support guys get a lot of shit because of other support guys who have painted us in a negative light. I remember when we were attached to 5th SFG, this E-4 from 5th told a 101st officer to "Fuck off, I'm from 5th group". That's obviously the wrong answer. The key is to just mind your surroundings when you're wearing a Group patch and respect the rules of the land around you, because they're waiting for you to do something fucked up or have something look fucked up on your uniform.

Dozer523
09-07-2010, 15:41
... I've never gone, but I've never felt the need to bag on anyone for wanting to go, because sometimes you'd be surprised at who's tough enough to make it through... Like who?


This post is SO Cute.
:mad:

GSquared
09-08-2010, 15:00
Like who?


This post is SO Cute.
:mad:

Not trying to piss anyone off here. I'm saying sometimes the guys you don't expect to go out for it do, and make it with flying colors and that for what some lack in some areas, they make up for it in heart. That's all.

18DWife
09-08-2010, 15:09
People who hate on others for going to selection are just jealous. Every single one of them. I've never gone, but I've never felt the need to bag on anyone for wanting to go, because sometimes you'd be surprised at who's tough enough to make it through.

Let the haters hate, and let it motivate you. I love when someone tells me I can't do something, it makes me work even harder for it.

Keep on keepin' on, bro, and I'm sure you'll make it.

As far as "Regular Army" hating SF, I know as a support guy, I've encountered people from conventional units. A lot of support guys get a lot of shit because of other support guys who have painted us in a negative light. I remember when we were attached to 5th SFG, this E-4 from 5th told a 101st officer to "Fuck off, I'm from 5th group". That's obviously the wrong answer. The key is to just mind your surroundings when you're wearing a Group patch and respect the rules of the land around you, because they're waiting for you to do something fucked up or have something look fucked up on your uniform.



I know I have had a **few** support guys at 5TH try the whole I am **with group/team so and so ** with me .I always found it strange they would lie ,considering such a small town ,small community .:munchin

GSquared
09-08-2010, 15:18
I know I have had a **few** support guys at 5TH try the whole I am **with group/team so and so ** with me .I always found it strange they would lie ,considering such a small town ,small community .:munchin

Agreed, I don't see the point in lying. You just get caught and made to look foolish.

The Reaper
09-08-2010, 15:43
For those posting here who do not seem to have a question, is this sticky from the top of this forum unclear?

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22758

TR

Riflecop1
09-09-2010, 18:50
Post deleted.

taskforceiron
09-11-2010, 22:34
I'm really not sure how alot of SF guys feel but I believe we are/were part of the same army and I considered them my brothers like everybody else who wore green. I've read in some books that a Special Forces soldier may feel more of a brotherhood with lets say a SEAL than someone who is in a conventional army unit. It would be nice if one of you quiet professionals gave some insight on whether this is true or not?

Mike
09-13-2010, 09:14
I think that is something just about anybody can figure out.
You say you have done reading on the subject.

Do some thinking on it.

Broadsword2004
09-23-2010, 04:38
I am wondering, but could also maybe the name cause some dislike amongst regular army? Special Forces...?

1stindoor
09-23-2010, 08:14
I had to go back and re-read this entire thread...yesterday I had the unique opportunity to sit through a selection board at Mackall for our future SFQC students. I am continually impressed with what individuals put themselves through in order to get into the door.

My observation, reinforced by cadre, is that the regular Army does not mind getting those that do not get selected. They get Soldiers that already know how to push themselves. This, obviously, is different than the Soldiers that willingly quit.

lksteve
09-23-2010, 08:20
I am wondering, but could also maybe the name cause some dislike amongst regular army? Special Forces...?They didn't seem to mind Special Services...

Dozer523
09-23-2010, 08:29
I am wondering, but could also maybe the name cause some dislike amongst regular army? Special Forces...?

We could change it to "Exceptional". That seemed to work in public schools.
Just so we still get to go to the zoo when the regular kids don't. Yup, yup, yup, yup. . . :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTGc_oLgwGY

1stindoor
09-23-2010, 08:37
If we were like everyone else our tab would say Normal Forces.

wet dog
09-23-2010, 08:46
There is an 18Z, on PS.com who once told me, "when 9/11 went down, my co-workers, (civilians), asked, 'what are we going to do?"

The following dialogue went something like this...

Tm Sgt: We're going to war.

Co-workers: You want to go to war? We hear that real soldiers don't want to fight, but fight they will when all other options have been exhausted.

Tm Sgt: No, there are soldiers who train for this every day, keeping weapons ready, knives sharp and rucksacks packed. In fact, we compete to see who's getting on the bus.

When I was told this, I laughed out loud. That's when Tm Sgt, said, "I'd shoot you in the leg just to take your spot."

Broadsword2004
09-23-2010, 09:19
If we were like everyone else our tab would say Normal Forces.

True, but isn't SF one of the various Special Operations forces (Special Forces, Rangers, SEALs, etc...?). However SF is the only one specifically called "Special Forces." In this thread, it was mentioned how the worst animosity towards SF it seems came/comes from the Ranger Regiment. Do they resent SF being a Special Operations force specifically called "Special" Forces?

1stindoor
09-23-2010, 09:41
Rangers, by that I mean the Regiment, have had a love/hate relationship with us for years. Primarily because their "best" tended to migrate over to our side of the Army. Of course we in SF felt the same way at times towards our brothers in some of our more unique units. It's funny to me how some of the "Rangers" I've met in group used to whine about how much better it was in 1/75, 2/75, etc...yet there has never been a mass exodus of people going back after a deployment or two. Something about a TDY voucher, a pallet of gear, an expectation of performance in the absence of a "command" element, I could go on, but I think you get the idea.

I don't think the animosity is due to our name...afterall, before we had a designated Special Operations Force, i.e. Rangers...we were designated Special Forces. The three lightening bolts on our patch is for Sea, Air and Land...yet we don't "hate" the SEALs for having that moniker....although we often wonder where the training comes from to keep that ball on their nose.

2pnoty03
10-06-2010, 13:52
I had to let my detailer and CO know I was going blue to green last week. That was bad enough. Then I requested liberty for the SFRE and the shit hit the fan. The only way to look at it is a challenge to overcome. Senior 18A I talked to said this, "Those that can't, won't support." It seems to just be a fact of life.

69harley
10-07-2010, 09:29
Rangers, by that I mean the Regiment, have had a love/hate relationship with us for years. Primarily because their "best" tended to migrate over to our side of the Army.

Another perspective from inside the Ranger Regiment: Many fire team and squad leaders left the Rangers to join SF because they were never going any higher the regiment. Same thing with guys in the 82nd. SF offered a fresh start, long hair and oakleys. Almost everyone I knew in the Ranger Regiment and the 82nd that left to go to SF did so so for what I thought were the wrong reasons.

Ret10Echo
10-07-2010, 14:02
I had to let my detailer and CO know I was going blue to green last week. That was bad enough. Then I requested liberty for the SFRE and the shit hit the fan. The only way to look at it is a challenge to overcome. Senior 18A I talked to said this, "Those that can't, won't support." It seems to just be a fact of life.


Seems to me that the closer the "regular" military is to the SF world, the more harsh the feelings.

I came over as a comms guy in a armor unit. Even as a section chief I was give a huge amount of leeway in my schedule to train, to the point where the BC and CO were going to arrange for me to get to the West for some land nav work (I was in Berlin at the time).

Being in Group the only real angst I witnessed was usually from the unit leadership as we were generally seen as a poor example to their soldiers. On occasion that may have been true, on other occasions it was totally undeserved. I had a large-army-unit XO harass me endlessly while working LNO duty for the SOCCE (I was in the Division TOC). It was fun and games until he put a round in the clearing barrel. I think me smiling at him and snickering for the 48 hours it took for his extraction were the most painful time of his life. :D You know what they say about Karma...