View Full Version : Bodies of three kidnapped Israeli teens found, government confirms
Team Sergeant
06-30-2014, 12:52
Would someone, anyone please explain to me why the majority of American Jews vote democrat/socialist? There are things I've yet to understand.
Bodies of three kidnapped Israeli teens found, government confirms
Published June 30, 2014
·FoxNews.com
Israel's nearly three-week vigil for three teens kidnapped in the West Bank — including one with U.S. citizenship — ended grimly Monday, with the discovery of their bodies just north of Hebron.
The search for Eyal Yifrach, 19; Gilad Shaar, 16; and Naftali Frenkel, also 16, who were snatched while hitchhiking, ended even as Israeli forces were conducting raids in the West Bank, where Hamas operates. Frenkel holds dual U.S.-Israeli citizenship.
Israeli forces were massing Monday in the West Bank village of Halhul, just north of Hebron. Sources said the bodies were found in a shallow grave in an open field. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was expected to speak on the discovery later Monday.
"The entire nation is bowing its head with unbearable sorrow this evening," President Shimon Peres said in a statement. "Over the past 18 days the nation prayed as one that the fate of our wonderful teenagers would be that they are found alive and well. Now that the bitter news has come, the entire Israeli nation mourns the premature death of our finest youth … Alongside deep sorrow, we will remain resolute to punish the atrocious terrorists. Our war on terrorism will only intensify and will not waver so that this murderous terrorism won't dare to rear its head."
"Our war on terrorism will only intensify and will not waver so that this murderous terrorism won't dare to rear its head."
- Israeli President Shimon Peres
The abductions outraged the Jewish state as well as the international community, and several vigils and rallies were held around the U.S. during the intensive hunt. Hundreds of Palestinians took part in the search, dubbed "Brother's Keeper."
The three youths disappeared as they were heading home from a West Bank religious school. Israeli officials said at the time that one of the teens called a police emergency line around 10:25 p.m. local time and said: "We've been kidnapped." They were not heard from again.
Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas criticized the kidnapping, and pledged help in the search but denied there was evidence linking Hamas to the crime. Hamas, which governs the Palestinian territories jointly with the PA, praised the kidnapping without claiming responsibility.
Netanyahu previously left little doubt as to who he blamed.
"Hamas terrorists carried out Thursday's kidnapping of three Israeli teenagers," Netanyahu said earlier this month. "We know that for a fact. Hamas denials do not change this fact."
Israeli forces searched more than 1,000 sites, rounding up Hamas and Islamic Jihad suspects as part of the operation. Last week, the Israel Security Agency identified two Hamas operatives from Hebron as key suspects in the kidnappings, Ammar Muhammad Abu Eisha, 33, a locksmith, and Marwan al-Qawasmeh, 29, a barber. Both men allegedly disappeared from their homes on the night of the kidnapping have not been seen since.
Binyamin Proper, who was among the civilian volunteers that found the bodies, told Channel 2 TV that a member of the search party "saw something suspicious on the ground, plants that looked out of place, moved them and moved some rocks and then found the bodies. We realized it was them and we called the army."
Meanwhile, in Washington, White House spokesman Josh Earnest told reporters: "We obviously condemn in the strongest possible terms violence that takes the lives of innocent civilians."
Cont:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/06/30/bodies-israeli-kidnapped-teens-found-government-confirms/
I think it's gonna get very ugly for Hamas...
Ambush Master
06-30-2014, 12:57
[QUOTE=Team Sergeant;555719]Would someone, anyone please explain to me why the majority of American Jews vote democrat/socialist? There are things I've yet to understand.
I Concur with that Brother!!!!
I never understood that voting block either...still do not
Would someone, anyone please explain to me why the majority of American Jews vote democrat/socialist? There are things I've yet to understand.
I don't have an answer to this question either. I spent a decade in NYC and asked my Jewish friends often.
One gal didn't believe me that Sadaam had fired SCUD missiles into Israel in Desert Storm.
The only coherent explanation I remember, was along the lines of " We were the persecuted minority in Europe which led to the Holocaust so we vote Democratic here because they are the party that cares more for minorities, to keep it from ever happening again."
I would generally call BS at that point. Some of these folks were extremely bright and successful people by most standards, but I rarely heard different.
Guymullins
06-30-2014, 14:55
The Communist Party here is and always was ,headed up by white Jewish people. They encouraged the blacks to revolt by training and arming them with the help of Soviet Russia, the state that was persecuting Jews in great numbers. Now that Majority Rule has come to pass, most Jewish people have left the country, and those that remain, particularly the Communists and ex-Communists are bemoaning what the majority have done to the country. The Communists feel that the blacks have not gone far enough and have sold out to Capitalism and the ex-Communists have belatedly acknowledged that Communism doesn't work, particularly in Africa. All in all, they have sown chaos and now are walking away from it all apart from the loony bitter enders who call for the second revolution to nationalize industry, the banks and abolish private ownership of land.
Some local Jewish folks I knew once told me that the Jews in Israel where nuts, they make trouble for themselves and they needed to get over the Holocaust. The same folks made a living off the military yet detested the war, Bush II and thought Bill Clinton walked on water. A former employer was of the opinion that many enjoy living like Capitalists yet they voted Democrat.
The Communist Party here is and always was ,headed up by white Jewish people. They encouraged the blacks to revolt by training and arming them with the help of Soviet Russia, the state that was persecuting Jews in great numbers. Now that Majority Rule has come to pass, most Jewish people have left the country, and those that remain, particularly the Communists and ex-Communists are bemoaning what the majority have done to the country. The Communists feel that the blacks have not gone far enough and have sold out to Capitalism and the ex-Communists have belatedly acknowledged that Communism doesn't work, particularly in Africa. All in all, they have sown chaos and now are walking away from it all apart from the loony bitter enders who call for the second revolution to nationalize industry, the banks and abolish private ownership of land.
Boet, you really have a skew picture of Jews in SA.
Yes, the majority of Jews supported the end of Apartheid and saw it for the evil it was; but only a very, very, almost immeasurable percentage were active in politics. The country is a mess now, not because of Jews and not because of communism. Your view that all Jews are communists is reminiscent Judeo-Bolshevism and anti-semitism.
caretaker
07-01-2014, 03:17
Would someone, anyone please explain to me why the majority of American Jews vote democrat/socialist?
My initial response to what may just be a rhetorical question is: doublethink. But since that adds little insight, I present the following article: http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0410/goldson_reasons_jews_are_liberal.php3#.U7J52blOWM8
Would someone, anyone please explain to me why the majority of American Jews vote democrat/socialist? There are things I've yet to understand.
I'm not Jewish, but I know many who are. My take on this is that the core of American Jewish philosophy is strongly altruistic; sacrifice to others is a big part of who they are. The Left in America is more consistently aligned with that way of thinking than the Right, so they get the votes. The far Right also has a strong Christian (sometimes theist) element, which tends to scare or drive Jews away. Yes, this ultimately harms Israel and even their individual freedom. The American Jew's response to this contradiction is Guilt -- although it sounds like a stereotype, it's also very real for many.
spottedmedic111
07-01-2014, 08:29
I'm not Jewish, but I know many who are. My take on this is that the core of American Jewish philosophy is strongly altruistic; sacrifice to others is a big part of who they are. The Left in America is more consistently aligned with that way of thinking than the Right, so they get the votes. The far Right also has a strong Christian (sometimes theist) element, which tends to scare or drive Jews away. Yes, this ultimately harms Israel and even their individual freedom. The American Jew's response to this contradiction is Guilt -- although it sounds like a stereotype, it's also very real for many.
My thoughts exactly. At this point the community’s leanings are established and won't be broken without significant cause. Sometimes perception is more real than reality even when inaccurate.
RomanCandle
07-01-2014, 09:29
Boet, you really have a skew picture of Jews in SA.
Yes, the majority of Jews supported the end of Apartheid and saw it for the evil it was; but only a very, very, almost immeasurable percentage were active in politics. The country is a mess now, not because of Jews and not because of communism. Your view that all Jews are communists is reminiscent Judeo-Bolshevism and anti-semitism.
I would submit that it is a mistake to throw the label of antisemitism when someone points out what is an interesting phenomenon. The interesting thing is that so many who supported the end of Apartheid and saw it for the evil it was seemed quite content to live and thrive in it for generations, yet within a decade of the end of that system found the new one to be untenable and packed for Perth. This is another interesting phenomenon not limited to the Jewish community by any means but could be seen in the context of a community that did indeed supply by far the highest number of white struggle stalwarts.
In light of your comment the other interesting thing is that big wall you have over there. Some may argue that the evil system lives on. I've always been fascinated that those that decried the old system would quite happily support the system in Israel not seeing the obvious parallels.
I would submit that it is a mistake to throw the label of antisemitism when someone points out what is an interesting phenomenon. The interesting thing is that so many who supported the end of Apartheid and saw it for the evil it was seemed quite content to live and thrive in it for generations, yet within a decade of the end of that system found the new one to be untenable and packed for Perth. This is another interesting phenomenon not limited to the Jewish community by any means but could be seen in the context of a community that did indeed supply by far the highest number of white struggle stalwarts.
In light of your comment the other interesting thing is that big wall you have over there. Some may argue that the evil system lives on. I've always been fascinated that those that decried the old system would quite happily support the system in Israel not seeing the obvious parallels.
I did not accuse anyone of anti-semitism, i did however mention that painting all Jews as communists was what has been used in the past by anti-semites (REGARDLESS, I MISREAD WAHAT WAS POSTED RE JEWS AND COMMUNISTS, APOLOGIES). Regarding the wall, do a bit more research, it's a wall between Israel and Palestine, not JHB and Alex.
They packed for Perth I assume, because as things are, there is a bleak future in SA, it's a fact, not an opinion. I mean really, live in paradise with a similar climate or live in a country with amongst the highest violent crime rates in the world? For some that have the means, it's a no brainer. When you write they enjoyed the "benefits" of apartheid on one hand yet were against it on the other, i agree with you, but that goes for the vast majority of anyone who voted NP, right?
Please, enlighten us to the parallels of apartheid and Israel. I look forward to reading your insights. There are none.
Hoepoe
Guymullins
07-01-2014, 11:05
Boet, you really have a skew picture of Jews in SA.
Yes, the majority of Jews supported the end of Apartheid and saw it for the evil it was; but only a very, very, almost immeasurable percentage were active in politics. The country is a mess now, not because of Jews and not because of communism. Your view that all Jews are communists is reminiscent Judeo-Bolshevism and anti-semitism.
I did not say or infer that all Jews were Communists. What I did say was that almost all the white Communists were Jews. That is a very different thing. Many Jews who were active in politics were fine human beings, Helen Suzman, Tony Leon and many many others did the country proud in opposition to the Nationalists. As to the mess the country is in now? Much can be blamed on the Communists who are influencing the ANC both behind the scenes as well as overtly. They are behind the writing of the Freedom Charter and are trying again to get it implemented despite their alliance having agreed to the new Constitution.
I did not say or infer that all Jews were Communists. What I did say was that almost all the white Communists were Jews.
My humble apologies, i admit to taking it out of context.
Ek is baie jammer vriend.
Hoepoe
RomanCandle
07-01-2014, 11:28
I dont mean this as a hijack so I do apologise.
Firstly you did bring up antisemitism which tends to be used in much the same manner as that other word "racism" is used.
I certainly didnt nor would I paint all Jewish people as communists. The ones that featured prominantly in the "struggle" indeed embraced communism. My point was simply that the previous poster pointed out the disproportionate amount that featured in communist organisations as part of a population that numbered barely 50,000 at its most numerous. They also featured quite prominantly in the early days of communist activism.
Wall between Israel and Palistine not Joburg and Alexandra? Well Alex is in Joburg and Palestine as I understand is what the Romans called the whole region of which Israel forms a part. Additionally the Israelis have always insisted that "Palestine" doesn't exist. I'm sure you meant in between Israel and the West Bank.
Of course the wall dubbed the "Separation Wall" and Apartheid having the same literal meaning I suppose the parallels could be obvious. "Palastinians" as they've become known, have to pass through multiple checkpoints where their movements are strictly controlled in and out of Israel so again I'd guess more parallels can be drawn.
The West Bank and Gaza? parallel between the "Bantustans" set up by the Nats? The parallels are most definitely there. I'm not criticising the Israelis merely pointing out the similarities as requested and a certain irony which becomes apparent and maybe a tiny bit of hypocracy.
Your comment about them leaving due to this country having one of the highest violent crime rates in the world leads us 360 degrees back to my original point. It wasnt like that prior it only got that way once the Democratic Utopia was achieved with moral and material support from those who most now reside in the paradise with a similar climate.
Again, although it may be a fruitless effort, I'm not levelling critisism they can do whatever they need to as far as I'm concerned. Just pointing out what I think are double standards of liberalism.
I dont mean this as a hijack so I do apologise.
Firstly you did bring up antisemitism which tends to be used in much the same manner as that other word "racism" is used.
I certainly didnt nor would I paint all Jewish people as communists. The ones that featured prominantly in the "struggle" indeed embraced communism. My point was simply that the previous poster pointed out the disproportionate amount that featured in communist organisations as part of a population that numbered barely 50,000 at its most numerous. They also featured quite prominantly in the early days of communist activism.
Wall between Israel and Palistine not Joburg and Alexandra? Well Alex is in Joburg and Palestine as I understand is what the Romans called the whole region of which Israel forms a part. Additionally the Israelis have always insisted that "Palestine" doesn't exist. I'm sure you meant in between Israel and the West Bank.
Of course the wall dubbed the "Separation Wall" and Apartheid having the same literal meaning I suppose the parallels could be obvious. "Palastinians" as they've become known, have to pass through multiple checkpoints where their movements are strictly controlled in and out of Israel so again I'd guess more parallels can be drawn.
The West Bank and Gaza? parallel between the "Bantustans" set up by the Nats? The parallels are most definitely there. I'm not criticising the Israelis merely pointing out the similarities as requested and a certain irony which becomes apparent and maybe a tiny bit of hypocracy.
Your comment about them leaving due to this country having one of the highest violent crime rates in the world leads us 360 degrees back to my original point. It wasnt like that prior it only got that way once the Democratic Utopia was achieved with moral and material support from those who most now reside in the paradise with a similar climate.
Again, although it may be a fruitless effort, I'm not levelling critisism they can do whatever they need to as far as I'm concerned. Just pointing out what I think are double standards of liberalism.
BUT:
1. Palestine and Israel are separate countries with voted in governments! Why the hell can't there be a wall border between?
2. In Israel, EVERYONE over 18 has the right to vote
3. Everyone had the right to the same education, medical services and even to serve in the armed forces
4. In Israel we have ARAB political parties that form part of the government
5. In Israel we have an ARAB supreme court judge
6. In Israel people choose where they want to live
Have you ever been to Israel?
A musical look at the comparison. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsOH2Y_CZE0
Your comment about them leaving due to this country having one of the highest violent crime rates in the world leads us 360 degrees back to my original point. It wasnt like that prior it only got that way once the Democratic Utopia was achieved with moral and material support from those who most now reside in the paradise with a similar climate.
That is accurate BUT it doesn't make apartheid right. Nor apartheid or democracy is the cause of the crime, the mismanagement of freedom is one of the enablers of crime.
Regardless, beautiful South Africa could, and should have been paradise for all.
Hoepoe
RomanCandle
07-01-2014, 12:33
BUT:
1. Palestine and Israel are separate countries with voted in governments! Why the hell can't there be a wall border between?
2. In Israel, EVERYONE over 18 has the right to vote
3. Everyone had the right to the same education, medical services and even to serve in the armed forces
4. In Israel we have ARAB political parties that form part of the government
5. In Israel we have an ARAB supreme court judge
6. In Israel people choose where they want to live
Have you ever been to Israel?
A musical look at the comparison. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsOH2Y_CZE0
Thanks I'll take a look once I can sort this patchy bandwith out.
Devil's advocate:
1. Two separate states. The Palestinians probably feel that they have no choice. The gaza strip being described as the worlds largest open air prison.
2. Everyone over 18 has the right to vote in Israel. Could be argued that with little representation it amounts to a PR excercise.
3. Ok I wouldn't know about that but I guess the Palistinians in Gaza and WB have there own hospitals and medical supplies when the ships can get through the blockade.
4. Arab parties? Well of course they are represented but with a higher voting threshold they might struggle a bit to get into the Knesset.
5. 1 out of 15 odd? We also had Bantu Holomisa for goodness sake. :D
6. In Israel people choose where they want to live. Some have complained that depends on whether a settlement is planned in which case you may not be all that welcome.
Answer is no. But then SAs future was also determined by many that never set foot here either.
My point is that the israelis have their facts, we had ours in both instances you had those that dont agree and will argue the odds. If Citizens that lived and thrived there agitated for one state ruled by Arabs and then packed and left once they achieved their aims becuse the results backfired I think the feelings by those remaining might be similar.
Guymullins
07-01-2014, 12:37
My humble apologies, i admit to taking it out of context.
Ek is baie jammer vriend.
Hoepoe
No problem, geen probleem ou bees.
RomanCandle
07-01-2014, 12:48
That is accurate BUT it doesn't make apartheid right. Nor apartheid or democracy is the cause of the crime, the mismanagement of freedom is one of the enablers of crime.
Regardless, beautiful South Africa could, and should have been paradise for all.
Hoepoe
Well yes and no: Those that commited themselves to the cause or gave moral support should have known better and had more forsight or at least stuck around to enjoy the fruits of scorched earth.
Democracy was indeed the cause IMO because handing the country's future to the most uneducated, superstitious and tribalistic members of your population to make every decision based upon bribery, tribal and party or family connections. Many who would just as soon leave the voting booth and go and cut someones lips off to make muti to ensure their party wins. If this sounds melodramatic or you think they are in the minority, you clearly left to soon!
I wanted to add that Apartheid was not right. After 1994 I think most people were really hoping that the new system would use the wealth of infrastructure and capabilities to elevate everyone. Our heads told us that the leopard does not change his spots and they would indeed level the playing feild by dragging us all back into the dark ages. After 20 years you'd be astounded at how many blacks say that they were comparatively better off with the old system. Many other people are battling to come to terms with having swapped a bad system for an even worse one masquerading as a democracy.
Thanks I'll take a look once I can sort this patchy bandwith out.
Devil's advocate:
1. Two separate states. The Palestinians probably feel that they have no choice. The gaza strip being described as the worlds largest open air prison.
THEY ARE VOTED IN AS GOVERNMENT, ARE TOTALLY AUTONOMOUS. THEY CHOSE IT.
2. Everyone over 18 has the right to vote in Israel. Could be argued that with little representation it amounts to a PR excercise.
ABSOLUTELY NOT A PR EXERCISE, ISRAEL IS 100% DEMOCRATIC.
3. Ok I wouldn't know about that but I guess the Palistinians in Gaza and WB have there own hospitals and medical supplies when the ships can get through the blockade.
GAZA HAS HOSPITALS, SUPPLIES ARE VIA ROAD DAILY FROM EGYPT AND ISRAEL!
WB HAS NO COASTLINE, THERE IS CONSTANT PASSAGE FROM ISRAEL
4. Arab parties? Well of course they are represented but with a higher voting threshold they might struggle a bit to get into the Knesset.
THEY'RE IN THE KNESSET! 1 KNESSET MEMBER WAS ON THE MAVI MARMARA, SHE ALSO SAID THAT HAMAS TERRORISTS THAT KIDNAPPED AND KILLED 3 ISRAELI TEENS (16, 16 AND 19) MURDERED THEM OUT OF SELF DEFENSE. THAT'S THE RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH!
5. 1 out of 15 odd? We also had Bantu Holomisa for goodness sake. :D
I DON'T SEE THE PARALLEL. HE WAS IN TRANSKEI UNTIL POST APARTHEID.
6. In Israel people choose where they want to live. Some have complained that depends on whether a settlement is planned in which case you may not be all that welcome.
SETTLEMENT IS NOT ISRAEL PROPER. IRRELEVANT.
Answer is no. But then SAs future was also determined by many that never set foot here either. REALLY, HOW SO?
My point is that the israelis have their facts, we had ours in both instances you had those that dont agree and will argue the odds. If Citizens that lived and thrived there agitated for one state ruled by Arabs and then packed and left once they achieved their aims becuse the results backfired I think the feelings by those remaining might be similar. ACTUALLY, THE FACT IS YOU COMPARED SOUTH AFRICA'S OFFICIAL POLICY OF APARTHEID TO ISRAEL'S POLICY OF SECURITY AND WERE PROVEN WRONG.THE FACT IS THAT ISRAEL IS MAJORITY JEWISH AND SOUTH AFRICA MAJORITY BLACK. THE FACT IS THAT THE ISRAELI DECLARATION OF INDEPENDANCE INCLUDES BUILDING A COUNTRY TOGETHER WITH THE ARABS IN PEACE AND IS NOT AN APARTHEID STATE. THE FACT IS THAT WHEN BEN GURION WAS SAYING THESE WORDS DURING THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDANCE, THE SURROUNDING ARABS STATES, ALONG WITH LOCAL ARABD LAUNCHED A WAR AND LOST, IT DIDN'T WORK OUT AS THEY PLANNED AND THEY'RE THE BITTER ONES.
You need to understand and research better - see my responses above.
Well yes and no: Those that commited themselves to the cause or gave moral support should have known better and had more forsight or at least stuck around to enjoy the fruits of scorched earth.
Democracy was indeed the cause IMO because handing the country's future to the most uneducated, superstitious and tribalistic members of your population to make every decision based upon bribery, tribal and party or family connections. Many who would just as soon leave the voting booth and go and cut someones lips off to make muti to ensure their party wins. If this sounds melodramatic or you think they are in the minority, you clearly left to soon!
As i wrote, is was the mismanagement of the democracy.
At the end of the day, it's a majority black country, and the whites are the vast minority, whether they like it or not.
Historically, the Zionist movement had its roots in the East European socialist movements of the late 19th Century.
A good introduction to it all prior to GW1 is SDSU's Charles Smith's book "Palestine and the Arab-Israeli Conflict" by St Martin's Press.
Richard
RomanCandle
07-01-2014, 13:17
You need to understand and research better - see my responses above.
To say I was drawing comparisons between Sa's official policy of aparheid and Israels policy of security is semantics at its best.
To tell me to research better? There is plenty of marerial in the open source much if not most draws parallels between the two systems.
If it is such a utopia why the high wall and checkpoints?
To say the settlements are not Israel proper? Well I think there are a lot of "equal rights" Arabs that would agree.
RomanCandle
07-01-2014, 13:20
As i wrote, is was the mismanagement of the democracy.
At the end of the day, it's a majority black country, and the whites are the vast minority, whether they like it or not.
Hence apartheid was a method of survival. Not merely a social experiment to project the white mans inherent racism as so many seem to think.
To say I was drawing comparisons between Sa's official policy of aparheid and Israels policy of security is semantics at its best.
To tell me to research better? There is plenty of marerial in the open source much if not most draws parallels between the two systems.
If it is such a utopia why the high wall and checkpoints?
To say the settlements are not Israel proper? Well I think there are a lot of "equal rights" Arabs that would agree.
There's plenty of open source material that says JFK, Marilyn and Elvis are living under a bridge in Manhattan, so does that make it so? There is nothing that can compare, 1:1 and prove the parallel, because there is no parallel.
It is not Utopia, never did i write that, although i wish it was.
There are also a majority of Israeli's who say that, fyi.
H
RomanCandle
07-01-2014, 14:09
There's plenty of open source material that says JFK, Marilyn and Elvis are living under a bridge in Manhattan, so does that make it so? There is nothing that can compare, 1:1 and prove the parallel, because there is no parallel.
It is not Utopia, never did i write that, although i wish it was.
There are also a majority of Israeli's who say that, fyi.
H
I forgot to respond to this:
1 out of 15 odd? We also had Bantu Holomisa for goodness sake.
I DON'T SEE THE PARALLEL. HE WAS IN TRANSKEI UNTIL POST APARTHEID.
The parallel is that we also had him in our pocket after all the Transkei was hardly a legitimate autonomous country, although the Nats insisted it must be because it had its own government. :D
My argument here is really not to prove that it is a 1:1 but rather to show that it can be argued. Which it clearly can be.
"There are also a majority of Israeli's who say that, fyi:"
A few years ago if I remember there were a bunch of Jews and Arabs fighting in court to be recognized as "Israelis" by nationality, something that has been denied because it would undermine the countries self declared status as a Jewish State. Making a distinction between Nationality and Citizenship. Even the IDs will show any official whether he is dealing with a Jew or an Arab.
So yes you may not have a de jure segregation but a de facto segregation almost definitely exists.
As they say South Africa's mistake was to write it into the law of the land and then enforce it harshly with a puritanical bent. Winning hearts and minds was not a National Party strength.
Hierdie stryery kry nou 'n lewens van sy eie. Miskien moet ons nou stem om nie te stem nie ..
The Reaper
07-01-2014, 17:31
I'm not Jewish, but I know many who are. My take on this is that the core of American Jewish philosophy is strongly altruistic; sacrifice to others is a big part of who they are. The Left in America is more consistently aligned with that way of thinking than the Right, so they get the votes. The far Right also has a strong Christian (sometimes theist) element, which tends to scare or drive Jews away. Yes, this ultimately harms Israel and even their individual freedom. The American Jew's response to this contradiction is Guilt -- although it sounds like a stereotype, it's also very real for many.
Kai, I think you have fallen victim to believing the propaganda of the left.
In reality, the left is generally only free with the public's money. When it comes to spending their own, they are much less charitable than the conservatives.
TR
Kai, I think you have fallen victim to believing the propaganda of the left.
In reality, the left is generally only free with the public's money. When it comes to spending their own, they are much less charitable than the conservatives.
TR
Just to be clear, I was saying what I think "typical" American Jews believe, not my personal beliefs. Personally, I agree with you.
In addition, charity is not the same as altruism and sacrifice. True charity is voluntary; altruism and sacrifice usually lead to an element of force / compulsion.
I forgot to respond to this:
1 out of 15 odd? We also had Bantu Holomisa for goodness sake.
I DON'T SEE THE PARALLEL. HE WAS IN TRANSKEI UNTIL POST APARTHEID.
The parallel is that we also had him in our pocket after all the Transkei was hardly a legitimate autonomous country, although the Nats insisted it must be because it had its own government. :D
My argument here is really not to prove that it is a 1:1 but rather to show that it can be argued. Which it clearly can be.
"There are also a majority of Israeli's who say that, fyi:"
A few years ago if I remember there were a bunch of Jews and Arabs fighting in court to be recognized as "Israelis" by nationality, something that has been denied because it would undermine the countries self declared status as a Jewish State. Making a distinction between Nationality and Citizenship. Even the IDs will show any official whether he is dealing with a Jew or an Arab.
So yes you may not have a de jure segregation but a de fact segregation almost definitely exists.
As they say South Africa's mistake was to write it into the law of the land and then enforce it harshly with a puritanical bent. Winning hearts and minds was not a National Party strength.
Hierdie stryery kry nou 'n lewens van sy eie. Miskien moet ons nou stem om nie te stem nie ..
Nowadays, ALL Israeli citizens, regardless of religion and ethnicity get the SAME Israeli ID document and have the SAME rights, BY LAW and IN PRACTICE. You are correct, it did indeed used to State "Nationality" which could be "Jewish", "Russian" or blank for "anything else" including Arabs; this was changed by a supreme court ruling and now it is always blank for all, unless the holder has specifically requested to have something written. related to the ID document issue you brought up: There is an ongoing argument regarding Palestinians that are descendants of Palestinians that voluntarily left pre and during the 1948 war and now want to return as citizens of Israel. This Israel will not allow due to it upsetting the balance of Jew:non-Jew and indeed, they forfeited their right when they left after being told by their Imam's that it would be temporary and soon after the Jews are killed, they would be able to return. It didn't quite work out that way.
I hope that helps clear things up.
Hoepoe
RomanCandle
07-02-2014, 01:50
Indeed thanks. I wont pretend to have the latest and best new from the area so I stand corrected on that.