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JJ_BPK
05-26-2014, 06:59
I am tempted to say this is an ambiguous attempt to say nothing, other than to say:

"Be armed with SOMETHING..."


An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power, July 08, 2011, by Greg Ellifritz

I've been interested in firearm stopping power for a very long time. I remember reading Handguns magazine back in the late 1980s when Evan Marshall was writing articles about his stopping power studies. When Marshall's first book came out in 1992, I ordered it immediately, despite the fact that I was a college student and really couldn't afford its $39 price tag. Over the years I bought all of the rest of Marshall's books as well as anything else I could find on the subject. I even have a first edition of Gunshot Injuries by Louis Lagarde published in 1915.

Every source I read has different recommendations. Some say Marshall's data is genius. Some say it is statistically impossible. Some like big heavy bullets. Some like lighter, faster bullets. There isn't any consensus. The more I read, the more confused I get.

One thing I remember reading that made a lot of sense to me was an article by Massad Ayoob. He came out with his own stopping power data around the time Marshall published Handgun Stopping Power. In the article, Ayoob took his critics to task. He suggested that if people didn't believe his data, they should collect their own and do their own analysis. That made sense to me. So that's just what I did. I always had a slight problem with the methodology of Marshall and Sanow's work. For consistency purposes, they ONLY included hits to the torso and ONLY included cases where the person was hit with just a single round. Multiple hits screwed up their data, so they excluded them. This led to an unrealistically high stopping power percentage, because it factored out many of the cases where a person didn't stop! I wanted to look at hits anywhere on the body and get a realistic idea of actual stopping power, no matter how many hits it took to get it. So I started collecting data.

Over a 10-year period, I kept track of stopping power results from every shooting I could find. I talked to the participants of gunfights, read police reports, attended autopsies, and scoured the newspapers, magazines, and Internet for any reliable accounts of what happened to the human body when it was shot.

- See more at: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power#sthash.AU7uv0Vn.dpuf

mark46th
05-26-2014, 09:07
The best thing I ever read on this was an article written by an investigator for the Atlanta Coroner's Office. He stated that the .357 Magnum was the most effective in killing people. By sheer numbers, other calibers killed more people but by percentage, the .357 Mag was the most lethal...

MR2
05-26-2014, 09:49
Another perspective: Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue (http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20mor gue.htm)

Javadrinker
05-26-2014, 14:08
Another perspective: Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue (http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20mor gue.htm)

Thanks, very interesting read.

Guymullins
05-26-2014, 15:17
All this first rate information serves to explain to me why I have been searching for a well priced Colt Python for a while.

Brush Okie
05-26-2014, 16:00
All this first rate information serves to explain to me why I have been searching for a well priced Colt Python for a while.

I have a Ruger GP100 and can highly recommend them. Mine has a trigger job done by a gunsmith that really helps.

Guymullins
05-26-2014, 16:02
I have a Ruger GP100 and can highly recommend them. Mine has a trigger job done by a gunsmith that really helps.

I am stuck on the Python. I have a Cobra and it will make a nice pair.

Brush Okie
05-26-2014, 16:06
I am stuck on the Python. I have a Cobra and it will make a nice pair.

Ahh yes a very nice pair. I wish they were still in production.

alelks
05-26-2014, 16:41
One of my CCW's is a 380. I only use ball ammo for the 380 as it's a small round and needs all the penetration it can get in my humble opinion. Needs to get through the outer tissue to the depths of the more vulnerable areas of the body.

PRB
05-26-2014, 16:56
One of my CCW's is a 380. I only use ball ammo for the 380 as it's a small round and needs all the penetration it can get in my humble opinion. Needs to get through the outer tissue to the depths of the more vulnerable areas of the body.

I do too. The only reason is it's lightweight and easily concealed therefore I'll actually carry it everyday...everyday.
First rule of a gunfight...have a gun.
I know I'd tire of carrying a .45 and hard to conceal in Az summer clothes.
Shot placement and keep pulling the trigger. I do carry 2 extra mags in my pocket.

abc_123
05-26-2014, 19:53
I do too. The only reason is it's lightweight and easily concealed therefore I'll actually carry it everyday...everyday.
First rule of a gunfight...have a gun.
I know I'd tire of carrying a .45 and hard to conceal in Az summer clothes.
Shot placement and keep pulling the trigger. I do carry 2 extra mags in my pocket.

Sounds like me.

At the moment I'm in a state in this union that believes in disarming law abiding citizens so I don't carry a gun, but I went the .380 route for summer carry where I was at last. With a smart carry (or, thunderwear) holster I could wear ranger panties and a tank top and you'd never know I had a gun. Also good for just throwing in a pocket during a quick trip to the store. So easy that I never left home without it. I usually switched to a .45 (also easily concealed in a smart carry holster beneath jeans) once it got a bit colder. .380 IMHO is very marginal so it was hot loads and FMJ for me to ensure max penetration. Extra mags also carried.

Old Dog New Trick
05-26-2014, 20:13
In the blog MR2 linked (I'd read most before) is one often overlooked principle of a gun fight.

The "psychological stop" vs. the "physiological stop".

People often think they are suppose to die simply because they have been shot. So unless a well trained or drugged up adversary is your opponent it makes little difference what caliber you have and if it's small your only excuse to stop shooting in a life or death encounter is because you ran out of bullets...

Shot placement and multiple hits are your friend!

tonyz
05-26-2014, 20:34
As the old saying goes...anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice...or more as needed.

Ambush Master
05-27-2014, 18:31
I've had people try to give me crap about carrying a 9mm Hi-Cap/w 2 spare MAgs AND a 380/w 2 spare mags. THe debate is usually over after my first of 2 questions: Have you EVER been in a gunfight?!?! I have, and I've also gone Winchester, nothing I ever care to do again!!!

plato
05-27-2014, 19:34
As the old saying goes...anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice...or more as needed.

Which leads to something I don't recall seeing discussed here (or anywhere else). I carry a Keltec P-11 everywhere. Mine is highly reliable, with a little fluff and buff.

However, on a trip that takes me to/through danger zones (let's call it Detroit), I'll weigh down with a Model 59 S&W. I can get back down on target and put out 5 rounds with the 59 during the time I could fire 3 with the Keltec.

For the same reason, I avoid the heavier calibers, not based on bullet performance, but "back on target" time.

Anyone else figure that into their carry decisions?

tonyz
05-27-2014, 19:52
Which leads to something I don't recall seeing discussed here (or anywhere else). I carry a Keltec P-11 everywhere. Mine is highly reliable, with a little fluff and buff.

However, on a trip that takes me to/through danger zones (let's call it Detroit), I'll weigh down with a Model 59 S&W. I can get back down on target and put out 5 rounds with the 59 during the time I could fire 3 with the Keltec.

For the same reason, I avoid the heavier calibers, not based on bullet performance, but "back on target" time.

Anyone else figure that into their carry decisions?

Yes, with respect to primary carry. Reliability, accuracy, capacity, and ability to quickly get back on target all factor into my decision. Then, a minor compromise is made with respect to comfort and ability to conceal. Fortunately, there are so many solid choices today.

I'm sure that others can expand on your interesting observation.

alelks
05-28-2014, 19:00
I carry mine in my right rear pocket using one of these. I absolutely love this holster and it's VERY comfortable.

This isn't my gun as mine has a lot of rubbing. I don't buy guns for show pieces. I actually use/carry them.

28198

SigmaAaron
07-01-2014, 19:44
This Kel Tec is much more comfortable standing and sitting, but me and wife argue everyday that i need a man purse so i can get my PP7 back from her. :rolleyes: If it werent for imprinting laws in Ar. I would carry the Sig everywhere.

tom kelly
07-03-2014, 10:52
Whatever you carry, .45 or.380 cal. PRACTICE often and Know the Law regarding firing a weapon at another individual... When the Police arrive DO NOT HAVE YOUR WEAPON IN YOUR HAND for obvious reasons. Tom Kelly