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View Full Version : Another example of how police respond to stress.


Streck-Fu
05-09-2014, 08:10
And not in a good way. Think of the irrational magazine dumps during the Dorner search. This time in Miami. The difference here is that they did get their suspect but shot two of their own in the process and endangered a bunch of bystanders.

The video includes radio calls and adds a lot of context.



LINK (http://miami.cbslocal.com/2014/05/06/police-shooting-frenzy-raises-concerns/)

MIAMI (CBSMiami) – On December 10, more than two dozen police officers from across Miami Dade County converged on a blue Volvo that had crashed in the backyard of a townhouse on 65th Street just off 27th Avenue.

As the car was wedged helplessly between a light pole and a tree, nearly a minute passed before officers opened up – firing approximately 50 bullets at the car and the two unarmed men inside the vehicle.

The two men inside the car survived that initial volley of gunfire, according to witnesses, who said they could see the men moving inside the Volvo. Everything went quiet for nearly two minutes before the officers opened up a second time – unleashing an unrelenting torrent of bullets that lasted almost 25 seconds. By the time it was over, the two men inside the car were dead.

CBS4 News has learned a total of 23 officers fired a total of at least 377 rounds.

Bullets were sprayed everywhere. They hit the Volvo, other cars in the lot, fence posts and neighboring businesses. They blasted holes in a townhouse where a 12-year-old dove to the ground for cover and a four month old slept in his crib.

“It was like the Wild Wild West, man, crazy,” said Anthony Vandiver, who barely made it through the back door of his home before the gunfire erupted. “Shooting just wild; shooting all over the place. Bullets could have come through the window. Anything could have happened man. They weren’t thinking, they weren’t thinking at all.”

Earlier that night, the driver of the Volvo, Adrian Montesano, robbed a Walgreens at gunpoint, and then later shot Miami Dade Police Officer Saul Rodriguez in a nearby trailer park.

Montesano escaped in the officer’s patrol car eventually dumping it at his grandmother’s house in Hialeah – before fleeing in her blue Volvo

By 5 am every cop in South Florida was looking for that blue Volvo – intent on catching the man who had shot one of their own.

But what police didn’t realize before they started shooting at the Volvo is there was a second man in the car – Corsini Valdes – who had committed no crime.

And in fact, as CBS4 News was the first to report, both men inside the Volvo were unarmed at the time police caught up with them. All of the gunfire came from police.

Montesano and Valdes were killed by the dozens of rounds that tore through their bodies.

But Montesano and Valdes weren’t the only ones struck – two Miami Dade police officers were hit as well – caught in the crossfire. One officer was shot in the arm and the second was hit in the arm and grazed in the head. If the bullet had struck just a half an inch to the side the officer would have been killed.

The sound of the gunfire was deafening – literally deafening. Two Miami police officers sustained ruptured ear drums from the cacophony of shots.

CBS4 News has spent the last five months piecing together the events of that evening and the hunt for the blue Volvo. CBS4 News reviewed radio transmissions, analyzed video taken during the shooting, interviewed officials from the different agencies involved, and reviewed records related to the officers who fired their weapons.

The nature of the shooting suggests the officers lost sight of their own training and that the officers, caught up in the heat of the moment, failed to listen to their radios or coordinate their actions endangering not only their own lives but the lives of the public.

It is worth saying, none of this would have happened if Adrian Montesano had not made the decision to rob the Walgreens and shoot a police officer. None of those officers would have been in that backyard if it weren’t for the actions of Montesano. But that does not absolve the officers of responsibility for their own conduct, as well.

Senior commanders admit they are very lucky more officers weren’t seriously hurt or killed. Even more haunting is the danger the residents in the area faced. At the time of the shooting, parents were getting their kids ready for school and across the street men and women stood exposed on a Metrorail platform.

The shooting is being reviewed by both the State Attorney’s Office and the Miami Dade Police Department.

While those reviews will likely take years to complete, what is clear is the Walgreens robbery and the shooting of Officer Rodriguez sent officers across the county into a state of frenzy.

No call is more harrowing for a police officer than a report of an officer being shot. By the time police determined the shooter was Montesano and broadcast a description of the Volvo, officers from a half dozen different departments flooded into the north side of the county.

Many of the officers just seemed to be racing through the streets, according to one supervisor on the scene

“I don’t know what’s going on here,” the supervisor declared over the radio. “There are units running threes everywhere.”

A Code 3 is when police cars are travelling with lights and sirens blaring. The supervisor finally ordered the patrol units to slow down unless they were actually chasing the car.

Dispatchers and supervisors repeatedly told officers Montesano was to be considered armed and dangerous. At 6:23 am police spotted the Volvo.

“I got the Volvo, he’s going southbound on two seven avenue from 79 street,” the officer said.

“It’s going to be occupied by a white male, 5-11, 225 pounds, Adrian Montesano,” the dispatcher affirmed. “Use caution. Subject is armed.”

Unknown to the officers is that there was a second man in the car. It is still not known when Montesano picked up 50-year-old Corsini Valdes.

Montesano led police on a brief chase before busting through a fence and crashing into a tree and light pole. As officers raced in from different directions, there was a pause before that first burst of gunfire. When the shooting stops after several seconds, one of the supervisors on the scene tries to take control. He notes the car is stuck and isn’t going anywhere.

“We need to establish that perimeter, I have not verified if the subject is down or not,” he said.

Another supervisor tells officers to stay back. There is no need for any of them to get into harm’s way at this point.

“We have the vehicle confined,” he said. “The officers need to pay attention to the radios, they are not listening, okay, that’s the inner perimeter – we’re good.”

A dispatcher replies: “Units pay attention. Please listen to your radios.”

Now that the car is surrounded, the plan now is to bring in SRT – the special response team – and have them take over. But so many units have flooded the area, SRT commanders are complaining they can’t reach the scene because the streets are blocked.

“Make sure the units are not in our way so we can pull in, and they’re not blocking the whole road,” the SRT commander said.

“Any units do not block SRT,” a dispatcher

Inside his house, Anthony Vandiver, used the temporary quiet to race upstairs and check on his family. He said he looked out his bedroom window, which looked directly down onto the blue Volvo below. He said he could hear the police yelling at the men in the car.

“They were saying put your hands up, and the guys were still moving after they shot maybe 50, 60 times,” Vandiver recalled. “And the guy tried to put his hands up. And as soon as he put his hands up, it erupted again. And that was it for them. That guy tried his best to give up.”

Asked if he was certain the men in the car were trying to put their hands up, Vandiver replied: “I swear to God on everything I love, my kids my momma, everything, I seen it all.”

We may never know which officer fired the first shot or why. Did he mistakenly think he saw a gun even though neither Montesano nor Valdes had a weapon? But what is clear – once one officer fired the others joined in.

But Montesano and Valdes weren’t the only ones struck. Two Miami Dade police officers were hit as well, caught in the crossfire created when officers on three different sides of the Volvo began firing.

“Get all of the officers off to the side,” shouted one supervisor, “we’ve got to get rescue in here. There are too many officers in here, back them up.”

To avoid any more officers shot, dispatchers pass the order there is to be no more shooting

“Have all units stand down in that inner perimeter, hold it for SRT, let’s give service to that officer that’s injured right now,” an officer declared. “Get out of the way, let fire rescue get in there and let SRT take that inner perimeter.”

As the smoke cleared and the sun begins to rise officers dragged Montesano and Valdes’s bodies from the car. Although he appears dead, they decide to transport Valdes to Jackson.

Slowly neighbors came out of their homes.

“The policemen that had on the black and white vests were out there laughing like it was so funny,” said one of the neighbors, “because they got a free shot off them people. Shooting all them bullets like that, that don’t make no sense.”

The Reaper
05-09-2014, 11:33
"To Protect, and To Serve"?

Not any more.

TR

atticus finch
05-09-2014, 14:06
"To Protect, and To Serve"?

Not any more.

TR

Sadly, or perhaps more correctly frightenly, that has become far too common.
Not anymore can I assume any contact I have with any LE is going to be handled on an honest and/or rational basis on thier part.
Not all of them are like that although it is becoming evident those that are trustworthy are becoming fewer in number.

Scimitar
05-09-2014, 14:50
The following nine principles were set out in the ‘General Instructions’ issued to every new police officer in the Metropolitan Police from 1829.


To prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force and severity of legal punishment.
To recognise always that the power of the police to fulfil their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behaviour and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect.
To recognise always that to secure and maintain the respect and approval of the public means also the securing of the willing co-operation of the public in the task of securing observance of laws.
To recognise always that the extent to which the co-operation of the public can be secured diminishes proportionately the necessity of the use of physical force and compulsion for achieving police objectives.
To seek and preserve public favour, not by pandering to public opinion; but by constantly demonstrating absolutely impartial service to law, in complete independence of policy, and without regard to the justice or injustice of the substance of individual laws, by ready offering of individual service and friendship to all members of the public without regard to their wealth or social standing, by ready exercise of courtesy and friendly good humour; and by ready offering of individual sacrifice in protecting and preserving life.
To use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient to obtain public co-operation to an extent necessary to secure observance of law or to restore order, and to use only the minimum degree of physical force which is necessary on any particular occasion for achieving a police objective.
To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
To recognise always the need for strict adherence to police-executive functions, and to refrain from even seeming to usurp the powers of the judiciary of avenging individuals or the State, and of authoritatively judging guilt and punishing the guilty.
To recognise always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them.


There's nothing new under the sun...

blacksmoke
05-12-2014, 07:56
“They were saying put your hands up, and the guys were still moving after they shot maybe 50, 60 times,” Vandiver recalled. “And the guy tried to put his hands up. And as soon as he put his hands up, it erupted again. And that was it for them. That guy tried his best to give up.”



So I'm assuming there is going to be murder or manslaughter charges? Many cops are not heroes. :rolleyes:

Hambone933
05-12-2014, 09:08
Unfortunately the law enforcement ranks are being replaced with increasingly younger and inexpierenced officers. This new generation are the same teenagers that sat around, in many cases still do, and played video games all day. The older generation is retiring and leaving the ranks. I think the same thing is happening in the Miltary. The younger generation of supervisors are more concerend with getting promoted and moving to the next level then ensuring there subordinates are doing their job and completing it competenly. The training giving to most law enforcement officers is woefully behind the times. Believe it or not there are agencies still training as they did 20-30 years ago. Officers are not being taught that they are to maintain the peace. LEOS are not the military. Look at the example of the officer in FL, who, shot and killed the 93 year old. He'd already shot and killed another shooter. Unless there are some serious changes in the thinking and training in LEO agencies this will only get worse. My 2 cents from the inside looking out.

Flagg
05-12-2014, 15:27
Unfortunately the law enforcement ranks are being replaced with increasingly younger and inexpierenced officers. This new generation are the same teenagers that sat around, in many cases still do, and played video games all day. The older generation is retiring and leaving the ranks. I think the same thing is happening in the Miltary. The younger generation of supervisors are more concerend with getting promoted and moving to the next level then ensuring there subordinates are doing their job and completing it competenly. The training giving to most law enforcement officers is woefully behind the times. Believe it or not there are agencies still training as they did 20-30 years ago. Officers are not being taught that they are to maintain the peace. LEOS are not the military. Look at the example of the officer in FL, who, shot and killed the 93 year old. He'd already shot and killed another shooter. Unless there are some serious changes in the thinking and training in LEO agencies this will only get worse. My 2 cents from the inside looking out.

The last time I got pulled up in America I was traveling at just under Mach 1 from Vegas to LA.

I got pulled up fair and square by a cop who looked to be no more than 20 years old(but certainly no older than mid 20's).

We were in the middle of nowhere and there was no following or opposing traffic.

The kid was very polite and very professional and went thru his drills like a boss. He handled himself like a fella with another 10-15 years on him. I was impressed.

I'm a bit less worried about "kids today" in LE than I am about how a very challenging fiscal/monetary/economic environment may impact on LE in the future.

Financial stress on LE.

Things like inflationary pressure on family budgets, LE wages falling behind real inflation leading to drop in purchasing power MAY leads to that awkward fart in the room called corruption.

Those 2nd/3rd order effects from poor monetary/fiscal/economic policy that could potentially lead to an increase in the kinds of things found in that old book/movie Serpico.

I recall a 60 Minutes episode about 20 years ago on the New Orleans cop shop referenced in this article:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/len_davis/4.html

If you pay sh!t, you generally get sh!t.

How much responsibility/culpability did the New Orleans PD have in the poor handling of Katrina due to their long history of poor pay and corruption?

increasing big picture financial stress on LE staff(as well as military/government staff with access to Int valuable to foreign intelligence) is a very serious strategic threat/vulnerability in my opinion.

edoo118
05-12-2014, 16:23
Look at the example of the officer in FL, who, shot and killed the 93 year old. He'd already shot and killed another shooter. Unless there are some serious changes in the thinking and training in LEO agencies this will only get worse. My 2 cents from the inside looking out.

Unless you're referring to another shooting I'm unaware of, she was in Texas. The 93 year old was waving a gun around and had already discharged it twice. Someone points a gun at me, I don't care how old they are. They're a lethal threat, and will be dealt with accordingly. Or maybe we should allow anyone over 90 to just shoot whoever they want.

atticus finch
05-13-2014, 15:51
Unless you're referring to another shooting I'm unaware of, she was in Texas. The 93 year old was waving a gun around and had already discharged it twice. Someone points a gun at me, I don't care how old they are. They're a lethal threat, and will be dealt with accordingly. Or maybe we should allow anyone over 90 to just shoot whoever they want.
I'm not a police officer so I won't preach about "well they should have done this or that" But what about some options?
Has it been determined she pointed and fired at the officers? Or did she crank off a couple rounds before they were there?
It is a truth, a police officer does have a bonafide right to self-defense, not to be confused with what we see going on today in the name of "officer safety"
Collectivisation by whatever means and/or towards whatever purpose, in this case ostensibly professional law enforcement. Does not grant, delegate, or otherwise transfer rights an individual would not normally have, you can't transfer authority or ownership of something you don't have or own.
However we all have the basic right to self-defense, in collectivising our resources and delegating some of our personal authority, that is transferred to the individual officer. Although as I said, this "officer safety" thing has gotten completely out of control and been perverted into something genuinely frightening.
Having said all that & hopefully avoided an argument,
If she cranked off a round before they were there, was she calm or less agitated ? Maybe talk them/her down off the emotional ledge? I can't help but think thing ratchet up immeasurably once the cops show up, IF she wasn't cranking off rounds at the officers, take some time and talk her down to a rational level?
What about simply the officers backing up and/or calling for swat to wait her out or deal with the situation?
I wonder if a cops best weapon in a lot of cases including this, is time. Wait them out until they calm down, in her case given her age maybe just fall asleep, etc.
Any options or possible choices, assuming they weren't immediately under fire? If they were under fire, repeat my earlier part about legitimate self defense, assuming that was thier only viable choice.

It seems too much nowadays this 'officer safety' excuse has turned LE into something to be genuinely untrustworthy and becoming a real danger to the public, hence people looking at situations such as this and wondering if it's more of the same.

The Reaper
05-13-2014, 16:22
Unless you're referring to another shooting I'm unaware of, she was in Texas. The 93 year old was waving a gun around and had already discharged it twice. Someone points a gun at me, I don't care how old they are. They're a lethal threat, and will be dealt with accordingly. Or maybe we should allow anyone over 90 to just shoot whoever they want.

So if you and your buddies crash my door with a no-knock at 0330 waving weapons around, I can deal with you accordingly?

Was shooting the 93 year old the only viable Course of Action?

TR

Kasik
05-13-2014, 17:00
I was a street coo for 10 years.

Involved in two near-shoots (no weapons fired) and one shoot (weapon fired by the suspect - who was taken down, disarmed and arrested on a variety of charges).

The last was a career RN, emergency room nurse, who'd just had more than she could handle and wanted to suicide by cop.

Age doesn't matter nor does gender - a lethal threat is a lethal threat and you've often got only moments to make your choice then roll with it.

One of our sergeants wanted to write us up for not "following policy" and killing her after we got back to the station.

There was a private conversation about the write up and it didn't happen:)

If you're not there it's impossible to call it.

That's for the shoot team investigation and the DA to decide.

And for the officer or officers to live with afterward.

Flagg
05-13-2014, 17:15
So if you and your buddies crash my door with a no-knock at 0330 waving weapons around, I can deal with you accordingly?

Was shooting the 93 year old the only viable Course of Action?

TR

Was it your post in another thread about having entry team members see things from the receiving end?

I quite liked that one.

I've role played fully prepared when the boys make entry. That's pretty interesting. And I'm sure it's far more interesting when unprepared.

For us, and in my limited and personal experience, in order to use less than lethal tools, we had to be on the receiving end a fair bit before we had the responsibility of being on the distribution end.

Not long ago I had a REALLY random situation with a old lady with known mental health issues pulling a handgun on me in Afghanistan. Fortunately close enough to disarm, but I'm still trying to process that one. :confused: Fortunately, I didn't poop myself but I can now see clearly why it can happen.

The only other relevant example I have(long time ago, different AO) of personal experience is an 0300 wakeup call in a "weapons free" village with 3 armed bad buggers who chopped up a local cop. An infant suddenly starting to cry in the structure our informant led us to that we were about to hit. It wasn't in the "actions on", and the crying started after we stacked up. That was an awkward brain fart moment.

I'm no cop, but I've worked with a bunch……..I don't envy the difficulty of pars of their job.

Being janitors for humanity on top of trying to solve these problems without the need for going kinetic unnecessarily is a pretty tough job I reckon.

I've become quite interested in learning the art/science behind training for effective decision making under stress.

Kasik
05-13-2014, 18:42
If they fired him without Cause other than "public outcry" -

And the shoot team comes back and says it was justified -

The city should just ask "how much?" and write him the check -

And it should be for ALOT -

There was a cop in Bend, Oregon, several years ago now who killed a guy one night who tried to run he and another officer over with his Jeep -

Took the door off the other officer's car and then tried to run the Jeep up on the hood of his patrol car -

He got hung up somehow and dropped the hammer on the kid - and that was it.

Turned out the kid's dad was a retired Portland cop -

Made a big issue of the fact the Bend cop had two good shoots behind him prior to this incident -

Went nowhere but the Bend cop ended up leaving the profession -

Politics -

He made out okay, though. Afterward got his Lear jet pilot's license and made his living flying rich folks around.

They didn't seem to mind that he'd whacked 3 bad guys in his previous life:o

The Reaper
05-13-2014, 19:18
Not meaning to be overly critical here, and the media may not be reporting it, but what percentage of wrongful deaths by LEOs result in incarceration for the cop?

I can only recall a very few cases that it happened and those were where the conduct was particularly egregious.

LE busts the wrong house and kills a homeowner. Will the LEO do jail time?

LE busts the wrong house and the homeowner kills one or more cops. Assuming he survives apprehension, will the homeowner go to jail?

TR