Survival Kit Pouch

[NousDefionsDoc]

I am thinking about a dedicated, purpose-built pouch for a survival kit.

[jatx]

How big is it going to be? Is this going to be first or second line gear? :munchin

[eggroll]

yes I agree.. although I stopped thinking about them and just BUILT one :-)

EGG

[NousDefionsDoc]

I'm still thinking. Which one is the one you built egg? BTW, you're doing this one too. ;)
1. First line - needs to be always with. Either belt mounted or built for a cargo pocket on pants. The new 5.11 stuff got me thinking. I'm thinking like a bail out of a vehicle under fire kind of thing. Not long term survival. An hour or two or whatever time it takes for the calvary to arrive. If its belt mounted, it needs to go on the rigger belt and horizontal.
2. Size dictated by the above.
3. Needs to hold a Pocket or WETSU-sized kit. A signal mirror (a real one).
4. Med stuff to treat maybe two GSW? No IVs.

What else?

[The Reaper]

I'm still thinking. Which one is the one you built egg? BTW, you're doing this one too. ;)
1. First line - needs to be always with. Either belt mounted or built for a cargo pocket on pants. The new 5.11 stuff got me thinking. I'm thinking like a bail out of a vehicle under fire kind of thing. Not long term survival. An hour or two or whatever time it takes for the calvary to arrive. If its belt mounted, it needs to go on the rigger belt and horizontal.
2. Size dictated by the above.
3. Needs to hold a Pocket or WETSU-sized kit. A signal mirror (a real one).
4. Med stuff to treat maybe two GSW? No IVs.

What else?

Agreed.

I would add to the med and signal gear, a Leatherman or large folder, a Surefire light, at least one spare mag, and a cell phone/GPS.

Are we up to a Maxpedition Fatboy yet? :D

TR

[Razor]

NDD, if you're talking a bail-out type affair due to bad guys shooting at you, how about considering something like a fanny pack or the Kifaru E&E vice a small belt pouch? Sure they're bigger, but they could more easily hold the stuff you might need in that case, such as a few extra rifle mags (assuming you're not wearing full battle rattle, but maybe a 5.11 vest), a smoke and/or frag, a GPS, a small gunshot kit, some water, a small radio, and your pocket survival kit. Not sure if a CSM Gear large fanny (or a MOLLE II waist pack) would carry the various combinations of that list, but a Kifaru E&E would, yet it only measures approx. 15" x 9" x 3" (~1000ci). If you felt extra froggy, you could add some extra mag/frag/misc pockets to the outside via PALS for differing scenarios. If you're just tooling around on the range, it'd be handy for holding med supplies, a 100oz bladder and range tools/supplies. I have one, and its really handy for that need falling between belt pouch and HAWG-sized assault pack. Ooo, or maybe you could do the Tailgunner thing, or maybe just the top hood bandolier from an EMR with a sling. Either of those could be on the sling, so you rotate it in front of you in your lap while you're in a vehicle, and you simply swing it around to your side or behind you when you get out. Check out these pics from Kifaru to give you a better idea of what I'm babbling about.

E&E
http://www.kifaru.net/images/e&eON2.jpg

EMR top hood with sling
http://www.kifaru.net/images/MGbando5.jpg

[The Reaper]

There is a fine line here, and it will vary with the individual, their tastes, and their requirements.

Basically, you have a point where you reach is the max size an individual is willing to voluntarily hump around 24/7.

That is why an aid bag or E&E bag might be in the trunk of a car instead of with the individual when he needs it.

If you want to hump a three day or an assault pack, there are plenty of options.

If all you want is a fanny pack, that is an option too.

I guess you need to make a list of everything you think you need to have, look at the carriers that would hold it, and either buy a configured carrier that you like, or purge your list till you can reconcile the two variables with something that holds your absolute necessities, but is not overly inconvenient. I suspect that might take some trial and error or wearing to determine.

IMHO, if you start getting up to the size of those bags, or adding rifle mags, you are beyond survival and into the E&E bag or assault pack load.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

[Razor]

Ok, I got carried away and went to E&E under fire vice carrying a few survival items. How about Egg's FUGLY or HAFFAFUG? It can fit on a belt (albeit a big larger than some), has a couple compartments, and will carry most of what you mentioned, NDD.

[NousDefionsDoc]

The Reaper is reading my mind. We all, especially when riding in a crowded vehicle, have a tendency to dump the bags in the back. Most of us will remember to carry weapons and at least a couple of mags. Plus we all almost always have our pistols. Its the little things when you get out to open a gate or walk away to take a leak. I thought the HSGI sniper waist pack would do it and it still might.

I'm still thinking, the input is great. Keep 'em coming.

[Smokin Joe]

NDD,

What is your bare minimum of stuff you are thinking for this kit?

From your posts it seems like you want:

1. A real Signal Mirror
2. Some quick clot?
3. 2 trama bandages or those Isreali things (forgot there name sorry)?
4. Do you want a tourniquet?
5. Tape? Duct tape, Medical tape, or both?
6. 550 cord?
7. Lighter?
8. Surefire E2e or bigger?
9. Signal panel?
10. Leatherman?
11. mini compase?
12. Matches?
13. Fishing line?
14. Dental Floss?
15. Pistol mag (1)?
16. Radio?
17. Spare batteries for Radio.

I don't have the experience you do by anyway, shape, or form but this to me would be the bare ass minimum of what I would want.

I think you could actually get away with ditching the radio, Surefire, and signal panel. Because I'm thinking that you would already carry that stuff on your person anyway right?

Just my civi .02 cents

[NousDefionsDoc]

The quickclot and the Israelis are huge. Probably too big for this kit. Be nice if Quickclot would make a smaller package. I will go with regular GI field dressings for this one.


I carry a button compass in my wallet

I don't think a radio. That's first line.

I think everything else is in the Pocket or Wetsu kits. That's why I like them.

[GreenSalsa]

But I have always used a SAW pouch...lots of room...cheap...and will clip on to web gear, ruck, or camel back...You can cram a lot into those things...

Just a thought

:munchin

[NousDefionsDoc]

That'll NEVER do Chief. Much too practical. :)

[NousDefionsDoc]

One of the new Kifaru fanny packs might be the ticket.

[Rotor Strike]

http://www.csmgear.com/New/Main/index.htm

Check out the fanny packs made by Doc Mike at CSM. I have one and it's the shit. Sounds like exactly what you're looking for.

[The Reaper]

Okay, not to hijack NDD's thread, but I am having a few thoughts about this myself.

I would not just limit it to stuff for emergency med treatment, but things you use regularly every day and would normally have on your belt, etc. Also enough stuff to make it home if you had no recourse but to skedaddle.

Frankly, in a broad sense, it is a first line item, if you have it on your belt, all of the time.

I am looking at something about the size of an Eagle belly pack I have which is not too intrusive.

Some items, like those you would normally have on your belt, for quick, handy availability, need an external access, so you are not having to dig for them.

So far, I can see a list like this as a baseline for me.

Spare Mag (external)
Surefire L-1 (external)
Leatherman Charge XTi (external)
Cell Phone (external)
Digi Cam
Lighter
Signal mirror (small) or compass with mirror
Signal scarf
Cravat
Field dressing
Med Tape
Betadine
Percocets, Morphine syrettes, other meds as needed
Ziploc (may want Ascherman, if space permits and is desired)
10' 550 cord
ZipTies
Short piece of 100mph tape, rolled flat
Couple of short sections of insulated wire with alligator clipped ends
Dental Floss
Docs pouch with passport, cash, credit card, JOG map section, 3"x5"s, Sharpie

Maybe in addition to the external access, have the interior subdivided into a couple of compartments to separate the camera from the meds, from the survival gear.

Another possibility is to have the med section Velcro closured so that it does not take two functional hands and fine motor skills to open.

Thoughts?

TR

[Brother Rat]

Opinions on the Maxpedition Fatboy? I am considering getting one. Not too sure about the whole "man-purse" thing, though. :munchin

[eggroll]

Folks lets step back a few & reassess the original notion behind this thread.

looking for a kit for short duration, belt packed, non-obtrusive blah blah.

This is an interesting conundrum, pack enough yet be unobtrusive, light enough not to be ditched.

NDD mentioned a signal mirror and a Wetsu kit, so a dimensionally this kit has to be no bigger than an altoids tin, no biger than 1 inch more on all directions.

FWIW, my SKP was designed to hold the contents of an RAF Mk.3 Aircrew kit plus some additional kit.

Reaper, I'll look at your list as a baseline to see if it can fit (theoretically) into the EGL SKP.

:D

EGG

[NousDefionsDoc]

Skp?

[The Reaper]

Skp?

Survival Kit Pouch, on geardo's utility gear page.

TR

[NousDefionsDoc]

The little one? Got more pics egg? Maybe of the inside?

[NousDefionsDoc]

Yes, I stole the pic. :p

[Smokin Joe]

Maybe internal zippered or velcro dividers so when you go for a your Signal mirror on the run your WETSU doesn't fall out.

[NousDefionsDoc]

The size of the SKP looks about right...

[eggroll]

suffice it to say, the SKP is designed with a slot pocket in the lid assembly to hold the 2 x 3 signal mirror, thus the interior is free for additional gear.

EGG

[NousDefionsDoc]

Sounds like it might be the ticket. Awaiting the results of your Reaper test.

You aren't mad at me for posting the pic are you?

[The Reaper]

NDD mentioned a signal mirror and a Wetsu kit, so a dimensionally this kit has to be no bigger than an altoids tin, no biger than 1 inch more on all directions.

:D

EGG

Actually, he said " Pocket or WETSU-sized kit. A signal mirror (a real one). Med stuff to treat maybe two GSW."

IIRC, You cannot put enough stuff in an Altoids tin to treat ONE GSW, unless it is superficial. By the time you get a couple of compressed bandages in there and nothing else, it busts that size constraint.

NDD, you want to list specifically what you would carry for a couple of GSWs (minus IVs)?

I agree that smaller is better, and more likely to be worn all of the time, but a bandaid, an aspirin, and a note telling you to suck it up isn't going to be very helpful either.

TR

[NousDefionsDoc]

Well, I was thinking a couple of good old Army field dressings and a cravat or two.

I would like to have some quick clot, but in a smaller container.

Swatsurgeon's modified Cook Kit (http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4000)

A tourniquet, although the cravat can do double duty.

A blade or two.

One pair of forceps.

Tape

The packaging on the Israeli dressing is too big.

I might be leaving something out, but I think this should about do it. Others feel free to chime in. remember, the idea is stay alive until we can get to the aid bag.

[NousDefionsDoc]

If I was still a Team Medic, I would give serious consideration to making one of the modified cammie pockets a F/A pocket. Same on everyone with the same contents.

[NousDefionsDoc]

I think what I'm going to do is pack the SWP from HSGI and take it out to the site and wear it for a couple of days with the rest of the kit. Just to see how it works. All of this stuff will fit in it easily.

[swatsurgeon]

NDD,
no quikclot....use traumadex or the newly FDA approved Rapid Deployment Hemostat (RDH, Marine Polymer Technologies, Inc, Danvers, MA....$$$$$$$$$$$) My trauma fellowship alma mater modified this product and had some great results (Journal of Trauma, Oct 2004, pg 756-759)
Quikclot has signifivcant problems and I would refer you to the newest TCCC manual/presentation by Capt. Butler as well as our article on the topic of hemostatic agents (Police:the law enforcement magazine. August 2004;28:52-59).
Otherwise if you need a valve for your kit I'll send one your way. Also, just pack 2 small Israeli bandages as the only bandages you take....they work.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Quickclot is issued. Are you talking about the burns? I will try to order some RDH.

I'm good on the valve/ kit thanks.

[swatsurgeon]

yes the burns....if it is not a DRY field, this stuff can kill anything it touches, i.e., nerve, soft tissue....it truly is the LAST resort in my book. I've tried traumadex in the OR on a liver injury...worked great, but I won't dare try quikclot in the OR, too many bad effects are possible unless 'perfect' circumstances are present which doesn't happen too often in the world we work in.
Did you say it was issued? The last memo we got hold of from the high muckity muck doc in the sandy area was it was only to be used as an absolute last resort for SF and other such trained individuals and it was forbidden to general medic use....do I have old intel?

[NousDefionsDoc]

I'm in a different AO working for different people, so I don't know. I've heard both what you said and that it was GTG. I wouldn't use it except as a last resort anyway. After a tourniquet. But in this scenario, I would like to have it (or something like it) available.

This scenario is interesting to me because it happens here often, not with gringos so much. Mostly because the situation is perceived as improving and people relax and take more risks. I could very easily see this happening here. Even in town.

EMS is non-existant, although the hospitals are good.

Most of the kidnappings and assassinations occur on the roads while in transit.

[Razor]

Just out of curiosity, why the Israeli over the Cinch-Tight?

[NousDefionsDoc]

Issued

[Razor]

Gotcha.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Swat Doc,
You good with the rest of the list?

Anybody got anything to add?

Here's the contents of the Pocket Kit

Contents (http://www.equipped.com/psp/psp_contents.htm)

I haven't made any changes because the thing is so light and small I don't mind being redundant with the compass, mirror, Leatherman, etc.

[swatsurgeon]

rest of list is fine....what about meds?
I'm adding my med list card contents that I use...most everything is pill and takes up little room. Also, we're writing an article on kitchen vacuum sealer bags to store small gear like this, takes up less room when sealed and keeps the stuff from going out of date on the date stamped....US gov cipro stockpiles were found to be 'fresh' and active 4 and 6 yrs out of date because of the vacuum sealing.Medication List for Tactical EMS


BITES Primary Alternative Comments
Bat/raccoon/skunk
Augmentin 500mg p.o. TID Doxycycline 100mg p.o. BID; rabies: HRIG 20 IU/kg infultrate around wound, rest IM in gluteals; vaccine 1 mL IM in deltoid days 0, 3, 7, 14, 28
Cat Augmentin 500mg p.o. TID Doxycycline 100mg p.o. BID High incidence of infection
Dog Augmentin 500mg p.o. TID Clindamycin 300mg p.o. QID + Cipro 500mg p.o. BID Low infection rate, consider rabies exposure
Human Augmentin 500mg p.o. TID x 5 days; begin ASAP If signs of infection, IV Unasyn 1.5 gm q6 hr PCN allergy: Clinda 300 mg p.o. QID + Cipro 500 mg p.o.
Rat Augmentin 500mg p.o. TID Doxycycline 100mg p.o. BID No rabies worries
Snake (poisonous) Antivenom in E.D. Need tetnus
Spider: brown recluse E.D. evaluation
Infected Wound Augmentin 500mg p.o. TID Cipro 500 mg po BID
Penetrating Abdominal Wound Unasyn 3 gm IV Cipro 500 mg IV + Flagyl 500 mg IV
Penetrating Wounds; other Augmentin 500mg p.o. or Ancef 1gm IV Doxycycline 100mg p.o. BID
Anthrax Cipro 500 mg p.o. BID


Anaphylaxis: Epi (1:1000) 0.2-0.5 mL SQ or IM (EPIpen?)
Benadryl 50 mg p.o., IV, IM

pain: Bextra 20-40 mg daily po (no anti-platelet effects)
or alleve 500 mg q12hr if no obvious bleeding risk
if opiods are necessary, dilaudid po 1-3 mg every 4-6 hrs...small pills, longer duration of effect

[NousDefionsDoc]

I might carry an epi pen, but I don't have room in the kit for the rest of it..

Scenario - got out of the vehicle to open the gate. Ambushed by BGs and had to seek cover away from vehicle by fire and manuever. Now hold up in rocks. Can see the vehicle but no way to get to it. Cavalry expected in NMT 1-2 hours.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Is this it?

Another Great MM write Up (http://www.militarymorons.com/equipment/kifaru/kifaru5.html)

Or is it too big?

[Mac]

When I was in Africa, we had to wear civies and maintain a low weapons profile when going out on village assessment and the like. I took all my E&E gear in a 5'11 vest. It held the following:
MS 2000 strobe
VGS17 (1/4 size piece)
Silva compass (issue was too big)
Magelan GPS
Pilots E&E map
field dressing/cravat/quik clot
british/WETSU survival kit
zip lock bag of Cipro/anti diahreal (SP?)/pain control meds (sorry dont remember name of meds)
surefire C2 w/ red&IR covers
550 cord/tape
signal mirror
IR chemlight buzzsaw
cell phone/minutes card
lighter
spare batteries in a zip lock
couple of energy bars
Gerber multi-tool
2 small water bottles (pockets for those are on the sides)

Currency, cards, documents in the pants. Same with a folding knife.

The vest was did end up a little bulky, but nothing was showing. No prob getting in and out of vehicles. Weapons carry style was personal choice. I carried an M9/spare mags in a Blackhawk fanny pack (not my favorite way to carry, but it was low-profile). For long guns, one mag loaded, one in a buttstock carry pouch and a 4 pocket bandoleer that was in the vehicle (around my neck when I was sitting in it).

[ZoneOne]

No exp on my end but I've been thinking about this for a while.

- Figuring one of your legs is free to put this thing on, it could be worn w/ you all the time.

http://store1.yimg.com/I/optacticalgear_1826_7181515

HSG Drop Leg Magazine
- carrys knife
- add on pockets for what you need
- mag pouches or radio pouches would carry all the gear mentioned above
- if worn on your leg, no need to worry about it when stress levels rise


may be a little too big but it seems like a good idea to me

[Smokin Joe]

ZoneOne,

*Disclaimer* I'm not sniping you here:

Have you ever tried running with a leg panel on? IMHO it sucks.

[Psywar1-0]

im comming in late here, but my "survival" pouch is really a signaling pouch. I use a SOE 500ml IV pouch that has:

pen flare gun
Navy 2 sided smoke/flare
signal mirror
aviators signal panel
basic 1st aid kit

the rest of the gear is on the first line belt.


this is for flight ops, not PSD type ops.

[Smokin Joe]

I'm sure you need something a little bigger than this but you might want to take a look at it. Its the Paraclete GP pouch (small).

[NousDefionsDoc]

This is what I've been running the last couple of weeks. I'm growing very fond of it.

[NousDefionsDoc]

I have got to get a real camera.

[The Reaper]

I have got to get a real camera.

No lie.

But where would you carry it?

TR

[eggroll]

Camera?? where else but in an EGL NDD Sock :D

The SNP is a good piece of kit for what it is supposed to do. For those who may not know, this is almost exactly the zipoff module from a Denali chest rig, sans zipper and has an additional zipper GPO pocket. Has belts loops on the reverse, and FWIW is rather low profile.

off-topic, TR how'd that pouch work for you?

[zeroalpha]

I still really like HSGI EOD pouch. I’ve had one for a couple of weeks now and although haven’t used it for any E&E (and hopefully never will) it does just about everything I want it to.

Ok, Its a thigh pouch, so running isn’t all that great, but my theory is getting in and out of vehicles with a butt pack or any sort of belt kit is a real pain the A. – Besides, my left thigh is 2 inches smaller than my right due to a knee injury and never getting my leg built back up again, so it good compensation :rolleyes:

To test my theory, I went running tonight with the EOD pouch full of kit and strapped on... haven’t run with it before. Although its 'weird' it didn’t really slow me down all that much and taking into account the weight I had in the thing, I cant really see a better option if getting in and out of vehicles a lot is a big part of you day.


Zero

[NousDefionsDoc]

I don't want it on my leg.

[The Reaper]

Camera?? where else but in an EGL NDD Sock :D

The SNP is a good piece of kit for what it is supposed to do. For those who may not know, this is almost exactly the zipoff module from a Denali chest rig, sans zipper and has an additional zipper GPO pocket. Has belts loops on the reverse, and FWIW is rather low profile.

off-topic, TR how'd that pouch work for you?

egg:

Been on the road forever, just put it on and loaded it up last night.

Looks great, fits well on the carrier and the mags go in like a glove.

Color is closer to the MJK as well.

Only things I would change, if anything, is to possibly shorten up the mag pouches to leave more mag exposed for quick removal and to leave the Velcro off the bottom 1" or so of the flap or put a pull tape on it for quick access.

Outstanding piece of work there amigo, will try to get pics up next time I have the camera out.

Thanks, I will get the previous version back to you ASAP.

TR

[Razor]

...I cant really see a better option if getting in and out of vehicles a lot is a big part of you day.

I'm still thinking a small shoulder bag, a la Maxpedition Fatboy, might work ok for vehicle ops. Sling it in front of you in your lap in the vehicle, slide it more to your back once you're out and moving.

[NousDefionsDoc]

I'm still thinking a small shoulder bag, a la Maxpedition Fatboy, might work ok for vehicle ops. Sling it in front of you in your lap in the vehicle, slide it more to your back once you're out and moving.
Ideal - but it will invariably be left in the vehicle.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Outstanding piece of work there amigo, will try to get pics up next time I have the camera out.

OK, so where are the pics? :munchin :)

[The Reaper]

OK, so where are the pics? :munchin :)

Counsel:

You are an educated man.

What part of "next time I have the camera out" confuses you?

TR

[Roguish Lawyer]

Counsel:

You are an educated man.

What part of "next time I have the camera out" confuses you?

TR

LOL -- you always have the camera out. Or so it seems, anyway.

How about this:

Would you pleeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaassssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeee take the camera out and post some pictures, Sir?

;)

[The Reaper]

LOL -- you always have the camera out. Or so it seems, anyway.

How about this:

Would you pleeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaassssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeee take the camera out and post some pictures, Sir?

;)

Sir, do you have a need for a five cell chest pouch to mount Para Ord mags on a Eagle MLCS vest via an EGL Nine-Pack?

[Roguish Lawyer]

Sir, do you have a need for a five cell chest pouch to mount Para Ord mags on a Eagle MLCS vest via an EGL Nine-Pack?

No, Sir, I do not. My presence here is driven by curiosity, interest and respect for a field in which I am not employed.

I would still like to see the pictures, and I am sure that others would too. I apologize for rushing you. Please do not punish the others for my impatience.

Oh, and:

:p

[eggroll]

egg:


Outstanding piece of work there amigo, will try to get pics up next time I have the camera out.

TR


Well that makes the hassle of TSA very much worthwhile.

Alcon,

whatever y'all do, dont board a plane with freshly melted nylon, as the sniffers will pick it up and go apeshi*

EGG ;)

[Smokin Joe]

Well that makes the hassle of TSA very much worthwhile.

Alcon,

whatever y'all do, dont board a plane with freshly melted nylon, as the sniffers will pick it up and go apeshi*

EGG ;)

So don't tap your buddies bag with a match right before you go inside? :D

[Razor]

Ideal - but it will invariably be left in the vehicle.


What if you wear it slung cross-body all the time--on the range, in a vehicle, on foot, etc? Can't leave it if its attached. :) 'Course, that's why it'd have to be small (at least smaller than the DBT E&E bag), so its not so bulky that its constantly in the way.

[The Reaper]

off-topic, TR how'd that pouch work for you?

FINALLY, I get time and the camera together!

This is egg's solution to a 5 mag carrier which firs perfectly on the front of his Six-Pack or Nine-Pack.

This is an Eagle MLCS with eggroll's Nine-Pack and a five pistol mag carrier on the front.

The one in the pics is set up for five Para P-14 mags, which is about the largest pistol mag you will normally carry.

The end two cells carry a QP Leatherman Charge XTi and a SureFire L4. If I anticipated neding needed more mags, I could configure it with more.

The mag pouches are stitched together very nicely, and appear to be bombproof.

Only changes I would make is to cut the pouches a bit lower to allow a better grasp on the mags and to permit smaller mags to be carried in the same pouch and to add a small piece of nylon pull to the end of the flaps.

An outstanding piece of gear that I would not hesitiate to bet my life on. D, sorry for the delay in posting pics.

TR