View Full Version : College After SOF: A Rant
The Reaper
04-23-2014, 09:14
Great rant.
I was shocked at how little of service counts toward educational credits.
TR
College After SOF: A Rant
by Blake Miles * April 21, 2014 * Transition Advice * Comments (0) * 650
http://transitionhero.com/4493/college-sof-rant/
So here I am sitting in the office of my business department counselor, discussing my degree path and time to completion.
I started college courses full-time during the Fall of 2011. As it stands right now, I'm not able to graduate until Spring of 2015. Based on total credits transferred from the military and the classes I've already taken, I currently have a grand total of 141 credits completed. Only three of my military credit hours transferred to my bachelors degree.
I remembered why my blood pressure spikes every time I sit in the counselor's office.
I brush aside the gnawing feeling that I'm wasting my time with what I equate to grinding my face on the pavement in order to prove that I am capable of grinding my face on pavement.
I'm not sure how many times I've heard the variation on the following phrase: "Just knock out the degree. Employers only want to see that you have the determination to make it through the college system."
Right. Determination... blood pressure rising again.
I've heard of this 'determination' thing. That's sort of like when you volunteer to jump out of planes, and physically destroy your body for extended periods of time in order to prove your worth and become a member of a small team? This sounds intriguing. I would love to hear more. Are there any brochures or pamphlets I could read?
Fuck. Me. Running. I need to get my mind back to the counselors office. Need to focus.
So I have approximately 10 classes left that I need to take. She begins going through the list so I can determine which time slot and day would be the best to take.
She informs me that I will need to complete at least three credit hours of a foreign language.
I agree that taking a foreign language should be a requirement for any degree. It's an excellent tool to have in your tool box, and learning how to learn another language is an even greater skill. Fortunately, I know all of this because I've been through language training.
Now, for those who don't know, all Special Forces soldiers are required to attend language and cultural training for their area of operations. I learned Tagalog, the language of the Philippines, while attending the John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School. Classes began at 0900 and typically ran through 1630, minus lunch time. Classes were five times a day... Tagalog was a six month course. This comes out to roughly 845 hours of classroom time.
Apparently, my credits as transferred awarded me three credit hours for this training. Unfortunately, they were labeled as a "Military Undistributed Credit." In other words, those credits didn't mean shit in the eyes of the school, particularly for waiving a language requirement.
My blood pressure starts approaching David Banner-like levels.
I ask the counselor (who is genuinely trying to help me out), "Is there any way I can have that language requirement waived?" I keep my well-developed mask of indifference affixed to my face in an attempt to avoid showing a glimpse of the general-purpose rage that is building inside me.
She explains that I'll need to get a transcript or course description and plead my case to the business department chair. Ok - another hoop to jump through. I move on.
She then comes to the required course titled "International Communications." The class description reads as follows: "This course examines international communication, global business etiquette, and it teaches cultural sensitivity and awareness based on the study of the interfaces of language, culture, and communication."
She reads this out loud just for my information, not knowing that with each word, the cynical part of my brain is doing a serious 'ROFL,' while the analytical part of my brain is calculating which objects in my immediate vicinity would break into the most pieces the quickest.
I let out a little chuckle. As she looks at me inquisitively, I calmly attempt to explain the nuances of the Army Special Forces job in 30 words or less, and attempt to convince her that the description she just read is nearly a word for word regurgitation of one component of the job I held in the military. She responds with a vacant stare, which seems to say, 'Ok, what do you want me to do about it?'
I know she's just doing her job and trying to help me. I completely understand that the average civilian has neither the understanding nor the inclination to appreciate (in the literal sense) what certain military jobs entail. I get that. This knowledge didn't make my blood pressure go down, though.
"Same thing. You'll need to get a course description and plead your case. But I can tell you, this class is important and it's only taught in the Fall semester," she tells me flatly. "It's less likely that you'll be able to get this one waived."
"Alright." I breathe calmly, keeping the adrenaline from spiking. "What else is there?"
Market research... recruiting doesn't count apparently.
A business writing class... ugh. My heart.
A creative writing class... ugh. My uterus.
Awesome. Whatever. I went into autopilot and agreed with whatever else needed to be done. I thank her for her time and advice on how to get out of the classes I know I've already taken.
As I walk out of the office, I can't help but think of all the other veterans who just got fed up with this sort of thing, only to walk away from school and never come back. There is a strong sense of despair that begins to take hold when you realize that what was once a major part of your life no longer has any tangible value, aside from the experience itself.
Here's a message for our educators and employers in this country: You want to help our nations veterans? Maybe some of our training is actually more valuable than time spent in your classrooms. Maybe my entire military career, along with the 24 months I spent in training in addition to the seven years afterwards, should translate to more than 33 credit hours.
Here's a direct message (from the heart) to the American Council on Education: Fuck you guys. Seriously. I don't know if money is your motivation, or if you don't think any military training is as strenuous as the college classroom, or if you simply don't like the military. Whatever the case may be, your shit is broken and it needs to be fixed. I really hope someone from ACE actually reads this.
For all the folks out there who believe that the purpose of college should be to prove to employers that you have the determination necessary to graduate: If the only purpose of college education is to prove that someone is capable of dedication, there are far cheaper methods that don't take four years and thousands of dollars to accomplish that task. The Latin root of the word education is 'duco', which means to lead or guide - not jump through a hoop like a trained dolphin.
I'm not sure how to best conclude this post, so I'll try to keep it simple. There is plenty of anger in the veteran community, though most of us don't know why or where it is actually directed. Often, the anger is turned inwards or onto those whom we love the most. I've been searching for the source of this anger for a while now, and I know I've identified at least a few. This is one of those sources.
We're thanked for our service. We're looked up to for our accomplishments. We're praised for our sacrifices. But deep down, what we're looking for the most is to be valued for our experiences and abilities.
When it's assumed that the blood, sweat, and time we've already spent in pursuit of a certain skill or knowledge is not on par with time spent by someone sitting in an air conditioned classroom learning the same skill, the implied lesson is that our blood and sweat is less valuable.
When we're told that we just need to play the game to earn a piece of paper in order for employers to value our life experience, the implied lesson is that a piece of paper is more valuable than volunteering to miss out on the birth of our children, seeing our brothers killed in foreign lands, or having our bodies broken.
I recognize the value of a college education. I enjoy the process of learning immensely. But I also value life experience. Most importantly, I know without a doubt that life experience is infinitely more valuable than skills learned in the classroom. I only wish that certain civilians in positions of power believed this as well.
UPDATE: It turns out that the military has recently made available a new valuation system to recommend credits for military training. The Joint Service Transcript website is available here: www.JST.DODED.mil. I did a walk-through of using it on our Transition Heroes website.
This would've been nice to know a while ago and I hope it helps me a bit in regards to giving me more credit hours in college. That said, my time in the SFQC is valued at 28 credit hours. SERE school is worth a whopping one credit hour for "Survival Skills/Outdoor Pursuits." Cynical mind doing a 'ROFL' again.
I personally value SERE school as worth an infinite amount of credit hours. I got more in that month than I could have possibly received from any classroom in a lifetime, but then again, what the hell do I know?
Colleges are businesses. It isn't in their financial interests to give military credit.
Just the way it is.
Went through the same thing when I was getting prepared for retirement in '06 and wanted to finish my BA.
Took a bunch of CLEPs (which the college discouraged me from doing because "some people need face to face instruction"). CLEPs did more for me than military experience.
TrapperFrank
04-23-2014, 10:07
I went back to school last year and have had a 100% different experience. Granted, I had a previous degree, but the department head in my major (film) worked with me to grant credits and waive certain requirements, such as language. He has allowed work I have done on film productions to count towards my degree. My department head is also prior service. He told me this was the least he could do for me after my service to the country.:) Everyone of my instructors has thanked me for my service and my fellow students have all been courteous and respectful. In fact, they go out of their way to ask for my prospective and view on subjects. This is probably the exception versus the norm.
TOMAHAWK9521
04-23-2014, 10:13
I went back to school last year and have had a 100% different experience. Granted, I had a previous degree, but the department head in my major (film) worked with me to grant credits and waive certain requirements, such as language. He has allowed work I have done on film productions to count towards my degree. My department head is also prior service. He told me this was the least he could do for me after my service to the country.:) Everyone of my instructors has thanked me for my service and my fellow students have all been courteous and respectful. In fact, they go out of their way to ask for my prospective and view on subjects. This is probably the exception versus the norm.
Damn! That's awesome! As for me, being in industrial design means I have to spend time in the art department, which is the equivalent of "Tho I walk through the valley of the shadow..."
Streck-Fu
04-23-2014, 10:40
My experience is very similar to the account in Reaper's post. I have a gaggle of credits from a variety of community colleges attended where ever I was stationed. After retiring, I rededicated myself to finally finishing my degree only to find that many of my previous credits were not accepted at this school and that I did not get much for my military training.
Even with all my electronics and avionics training, little would be credited toward even an electronics degree because the training was so long ago; even though I was had to maintain proficiency and was active in that field until 2005.
The following is especially familiar:
She then comes to the required course titled "International Communications." The class description reads as follows: "This course examines international communication, global business etiquette, and it teaches cultural sensitivity and awareness based on the study of the interfaces of language, culture, and communication."
All degrees require a similar course that they would not waive for me. It was a PC course designed to teach students senstivitiy and cultural awareness.
I tried to make the case that I have worked for, supervised, worked along side people from many cultures and ethnicities should qualify for a waiver.
I was told that the course could not be waived.
It was very frustrating but Ill finish it any way. Often, I do question why as I'd rather spend the time with my sons or watch a movie with my wife after tehy go to bed.
I still hold the idea that a degree will be necessary if try to work any where else though I don't believe that it should be.
EDIT: My training and time as an instructor was of the most benefit as they gave me credit for an English, Public Speaking, and anther class I can't remember right now.
EDIT 2: A Duffelblog entry that too accurately describes my experience of trying to go to school while on active duty: LINK (http://www.duffelblog.com/2014/02/navy-college-program/)
Depends on the school.
I finally went back to school to get an Associates in Arts degree from Fayetteville Technical Community College. The AA is 65 credit hours. I had gone to the same school back when it was under the quarter system and known as FTI. Got 19 credit hours which I was informed didn't count because it was under the quarter system.
I had taken all the CLEP tests (30 hrs) so I took my records out to the FTCC office out at Ft Bragg to have them evaluated.
All told I ended up with something around 89 hours - BUT - sliding everything into the "required" slots I required 5 classes, 2 freshman intro classes, 2 science with labs and a math class. So I'll get the AA with something around 109 CHs.
My daughter graduated from FTCC last spring with a Associates in Business and decided to go to Methodist College to get her Bachelor's Degree. Methodist dropped half her classes and started her out as a sophomore.
There is an agreement in NC between Community Colleges and State Colleges about credit hours. My 65 CHs will slide right over to Fayetteville State. It then becomes how much of my 109 CHs slides into the 130 CHs required for a Bachelor's Degree. Almost all colleges require a person to take at least 25% of your credits with them to get their degree.
Just an example an old retired fart will get credit for PED-110 Fit and Well for Life (2 CH), PED-125 Self Defense Beginning (1 CH), PED-169 Orienteering (1 CH) and PED-172 Outdoor Living (2CH). That's 6 CHs but most programs will say something like "Take 1 CH from the PED Field".
But this thread reminds me I need to run back over to Ft Bragg FTCC and kick them again about the language credit.
Edited to add - when I started this and the adviser had totaled my credits I asked what degree would get me the Associates Degree with the least required classes. Any other degree would have required more classes concentrated in that field of study.
Edit - Edit to add - You can also get credit for BUS-135, 137, 234, 253 & 255 (15 CH); CJC 193 & 212 (6 CH); POL 220 and EPT-220 (3 CH each) plus a bunch of singles here and there.
I should go into a little more detail.
1 - It all depends on the school and what they allow. That was one thing I looked at before picking the way I was going to go. Staying in town - going with FTCC first and then transferring to FAY State got me as many credit hours as possible starting out and in the transfer.
2 - Credit hours are funny things because I have something like 140 hours but there are lots in the 010 - 090 range that don't count for diddly squat.
3 - Stuff that counts - I listed something like 30 good credit hours in my post above. Of that only 1 PED credit is being used in my associates degree.
So you have to look at the credits you have and how they fit into the degree you are working toward. If they don't fit the college will not use them.
Blake is 1000%. I'm went through this with my university last year. I gave up as seeing it more as a way of them just sucking off the tit of the system. They want the free G.I. Bill money. One thing that I feel needs to be fixed is the USASFC and USAJFKSWCS to have the SWCS Dept of Ed get with American Council on Education and get credit to guys for what SWCS Teaches. Between SFQC, Language Course, Special Skills course, as in ASOT in creative writing class. Because all that have gone to ASOT that's a full college creative writing class. Just as the new ANCOC (SLC) classes in concept writing to basic OPORD can be the Business Writing glass. Ok a stretch maybe, but the point it there. The DoD doesn't do justice towards how much of what we are taught in courses and what college course credit we get for them. Another example is guys that become drill sergeant or SWC Instructors, only 1 credit for the schooling. DoD needs to really look at fixing this. SWC (JFK) Ed needs to try to get more. Also heard that if you did DLI or SWC Language training, request your language transcript from DLI. You get more than just 1 credit for your 450+ hours or 9-430 a day language training. A SF guy should get at least one semester waved of foreign language training.
Yes the collegiate system is all about making money. DoD isn't about helping us out.
.... Another example is guys that become drill sergeant or SWC Instructors, only 1 credit for the schooling. .....
ITC at FTCC will get you 3 Credit Hours of Public Speaking (The required one). Man, I really did not want to have to take the speech class at FTCC and dug deep way into the bottom of my Army box to find the ITC diploma.
Streck-Fu
04-23-2014, 12:55
I Man, I really did not want to have to take the speech class at FTCC and dug deep way into the bottom of my Army box to find the ITC diploma.
I was so relieved when told that I did not have to take that class....It at least saved the professor from hearing a speech from me titled, "This is fvcking bullshit."....
Talk to fayettville community college. They have a special program for 18x, 38 and 37 seris MOS through SWC. Long story short you almost have an AA degree through them and depending on your MOS depends on what field. ........
Do not go to the main campus - go to the FTCC campus (old kids school next to the FORSCOM HQ) out at Ft Bragg and see the retired CSM counselor. Bring everything, sealed transcripts from High School, all the single class transcripts you took here and there, 214, -1, every diploma & ITC ;).
I did that on was only 5 classes short of my AA - but needed 16.25 credits at FTCC. Just try and find a class that gives you .25 credit hour.
Just a side note - looked at Brush Okie's degree link - it lines up real well with what you'll get after having your records looked at out at Ft Bragg. Those 2 PED classes are in there. :)
Blake comes across to me as a whiner who thinks the world revolves around him.
American Military University used my language time at SWC to cover all my foreign language credits.
Leozinho
04-23-2014, 15:44
Blake comes across to me as a whiner who thinks the world revolves around him.
Unfortunately, I have to agree that this article doesn't give a favorable impression. The cursing and talk about blood pressure rising isn't productive. And given the edit at the bottom of his article, it looks like he didn't do his research and see that the military has tried to facilitate getting colleges to recogize our training. But ultimately, I think it's unrealistic to expect a college to understand all the different military training and automatically waive its requirements based on the student's description of what he did.
(I'm not surprised that American Military University or those around Fayetteville are more apt to recognize your military training. But a random college with limited affiliation with the military -- don't expect much.)
He wrote, "That said, my time in the SFQC is valued at 28 credit hours." That's roughly a year of college. In my opinion, that's not bad for 24 months of military training (the time he said he was in the Q course).
(I went to college before SFQC. I didn't ask, but I don't think SWCC would have allowed me to use my college credits to waive any of its requirements. ;) I think that conversation with my TAC would have been a bit less friendly than Blake's conversation with his college advisor.)
My $.02 college is not the real world, just a necessary game to figure out. I think the bigger issue is realizing the disconnect between the less than .5 percent of Americans serving in all volunteer force and the rest of the population.
In WW2 most people had a friend or loved one in uniform, and thus knew what a gold star in the window meant, or the term kamikaze, or where Bastogne was.
I think the average American has very little familiarity with our military. They would have no idea about ranks, terminology, MOS, or qualifications. Many don't know what IED stands for, the difference between a Pashtun and a Kurd, or what kind of training or missions are required of SF.
Food for thought below,
The New York Times
May 26, 2013
Americans and Their Military, Drifting Apart
By KARL W. EIKENBERRY and DAVID M. KENNEDY
STANFORD, Calif. — AFTER fighting two wars in nearly 12 years, the United States military is at a turning point. So are the American people. The armed forces must rethink their mission. Though the nation has entered an era of fiscal constraint, and though President Obama last week effectively declared an end to the “global war on terror” that began on Sept. 11, 2001, the military remains determined to increase the gap between its war-fighting capabilities and those of any potential enemies. But the greatest challenge to our military is not from a foreign enemy — it’s the widening gap between the American people and their armed forces.
Three developments in recent decades have widened this chasm. First and most basic was the decision in 1973, at the end of combat operations in Vietnam, to depart from the tradition of the citizen-soldier by ending conscription and establishing a large, professional, all-volunteer force to maintain the global commitments we have assumed since World War II. In 1776, Samuel Adams warned of the dangers inherent in such an arrangement: “A standing Army, however necessary it may be at some times, is always dangerous to the Liberties of the People. Soldiers are apt to consider themselves as a Body distinct from the rest of the Citizens.”
For nearly two generations, no American has been obligated to join up, and few do. Less than 0.5 percent of the population serves in the armed forces, compared with more than 12 percent during World War II. Even fewer of the privileged and powerful shoulder arms. In 1975, 70 percent of members of Congress had some military service; today, just 20 percent do, and only a handful of their children are in uniform.
In sharp contrast, so many officers have sons and daughters serving that they speak, with pride and anxiety, about war as a “family business.” Here are the makings of a self-perpetuating military caste, sharply segregated from the larger society and with its enlisted ranks disproportionately recruited from the disadvantaged. History suggests that such scenarios don’t end well.
Second, technology has helped insulate civilians from the military. World War II consumed nearly half of America’s economic output. But in recent decades, information and navigation technologies have vastly amplified the individual warrior’s firepower, allowing for a much more compact and less costly military. Today’s Pentagon budget accounts for less than 5 percent of gross domestic product and less than 20 percent of the federal budget — down from 45 percent of federal expenditures at the height of the Vietnam War. Such reliance on technology can breed indifference and complacency about the use of force. The advent of remotely piloted aircraft is one logical outcome. Reliance on drones economizes on both manpower and money, but is fraught with moral and legal complexities, as Mr. Obama acknowledged last week, in shifting responsibility for the drone program to the military from the C.I.A.
Third, and perhaps most troubling, the military’s role has expanded far beyond the traditional battlefield. In Iraq and Afghanistan, commanders orchestrated, alongside their combat missions, “nation-building” initiatives like infrastructure projects and promotion of the rule of law and of women’s rights. The potential for conflict in cyberspace, where military and civilian collaboration is essential, makes a further blurring of missions likely.
Together, these developments present a disturbingly novel spectacle: a maximally powerful force operating with a minimum of citizen engagement and comprehension. Technology and popular culture have intersected to perverse effect. While Vietnam brought home the wrenching realities of war via television, today’s wars make extensive use of computers and robots, giving some civilians the decidedly false impression that the grind and horror of combat are things of the past. The media offer us images of drone pilots, thousands of miles from the fray, coolly and safely dispatching enemies in their electronic cross hairs. Hollywood depicts superhuman teams of Special Operations forces snuffing out their adversaries with clinical precision.
The Congressional Research Service has documented 144 military deployments in the 40 years since adoption of the all-voluntary force in 1973, compared with 19 in the 27-year period of the Selective Service draft following World War II — an increase in reliance on military force traceable in no small part to the distance that has come to separate the civil and military sectors. The modern force presents presidents with a moral hazard, making it easier for them to resort to arms with little concern for the economic consequences or political accountability. Meanwhile, Americans are happy to thank the volunteer soldiers who make it possible for them not to serve, and deem it is somehow unpatriotic to call their armed forces to task when things go awry.
THE all-volunteer force may be the most lethal and professional force in history, but it makes a mockery of George Washington’s maxim: “When we assumed the Soldier, we did not lay aside the Citizen.” Somehow, soldier and citizen must once again be brought to stand side by side.
Let’s start with a draft lottery. Americans neither need nor want a vast conscript force, but a lottery that populated part of the ranks with draftees would reintroduce the notion of service as civic obligation. The lottery could be activated when volunteer recruitments fell short, and weighted to select the best-educated and most highly skilled Americans, providing an incentive for the most privileged among us to pay greater heed to military matters. The Pentagon could also restore the so-called Total Force Doctrine, which shaped the early years of the all-volunteer force but was later dismantled. It called for a large-scale call-up of the Reserves and National Guard at the start of any large, long deployment. Because these standby forces tend to contain older men and women, rooted in their communities, their mobilization would serve as a brake on going to war because it would disrupt their communities (as even the belated and smaller-scale call-up of some units for Iraq and Afghanistan did) in ways that sending only the standing Army does not.
Congress must also take on a larger role in war-making. Its last formal declarations of war were during World War II. It’s high time to revisit the recommendation, made in 2008 by the bipartisan National War Powers Commission, to replace the 1973 War Powers Act, which requires notification of Congress after the president orders military action, with a mandate that the president consult with Congress before resorting to force. This would circumscribe presidential power, but it would confer greater legitimacy on military interventions and better shield the president from getting all the blame when the going got tough.
Congress should also insist that wars be paid for in real time. Levying special taxes, rather than borrowing, to finance “special appropriations” would compel the body politic to bear the fiscal burden — and encourage citizens to consider war-making a political choice they were involved in, not a fait accompli they must accept.
Other measures to strengthen citizen engagement with the military should include decreased reliance on contractors for noncombat tasks, so that the true size of the force would be more transparent; integrating veteran and civilian hospitals and rehabilitation facilities, which would let civilians see war’s wounded firsthand; and shrinking self-contained residential neighborhoods on domestic military bases, so that more service members could pray, play and educate their children alongside their fellow Americans. Schools, the media and organs of popular culture also have a duty to help promote civic vigilance.
The civilian-military divide erodes the sense of duty that is critical to the health of our democratic republic, where the most important office is that of the citizen. While the armed forces retool for the future, citizens cannot be mere spectators. As Adams said about military power: “A wise and prudent people will always have a watchful and a jealous eye over it.”
Karl W. Eikenberry, a retired Army lieutenant general, was the United States commander in Afghanistan from 2005 to 2007 and the ambassador there from 2009 to 2011. He is a fellow at Stanford, where David M. Kennedy is an emeritus professor of history. They are, respectively, a contributor to and the editor of “The Modern American Military.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/27/opinion/americans-and-their-military-drifting-apart.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0&pagewanted=print
charlietwo
04-23-2014, 19:57
Blake comes across to me as a whiner who thinks the world revolves around him.
I wrote the article.. I understand where guys are coming from saying I sound like a whiner.
I didn't write the article for the sympathy as a 'woe is me' thing. I'm drawing attention to an issue that obviously strikes a nerve with a lot of military veterans... and I did do my research as I wrote the article... but already had the article written as I learned more options I had at my disposal. I felt it was important to post as is.
Up until the other day, I had never heard of the Joint Service Transcript. I learned from a buddy about arguing for getting classes accepted. I've picked up a lot of good advice after the article was posted. Bottom line -- the system is far more difficult than it needs to be. I understand the 'play the game' argument, but most guys simply get fed up after years of the military 'game' and say fuck this. Then they end up drinking themselves stupid and eating pills from the VA rather than driving forward towards a degree.
I'm close to graduating at this point, so I don't have any illusions of helping myself in all of this. If I can help guys down the road avoid classes they're already proficient in so they can get into the real world quicker, I'll again feel like I accomplished something with this article...
Trust me, I'm not easily angered or frustrated, and I don't whine in person. I wouldn't have made it through the X-ray program if I was easily angered, frustrated, or a bitching crybaby. This topic has been a sore spot with me because I recognize the glaring flaws in it and it is simply the first fight I've felt worth fighting in a long time.
If you don't agree with my assessment, so be it. I chose to speak up about it and the emotion I injected into the article seems to have gotten attention on the topic.
If we were talking about the topic in the teamroom would you tell me to quit whining and play the game or would you see value in working towards changing the game?
I should go into a little more detail.
1 - It all depends on the school and what they allow. That was one thing I looked at before picking the way I was going to go. Staying in town - going with FTCC first and then transferring to FAY State got me as many credit hours as possible starting out and in the transfer.
2 - Credit hours are funny things because I have something like 140 hours but there are lots in the 010 - 090 range that don't count for diddly squat.
3 - Stuff that counts - I listed something like 30 good credit hours in my post above. Of that only 1 PED credit is being used in my associates degree.
So you have to look at the credits you have and how they fit into the degree you are working toward. If they don't fit the college will not use them.
Yep - what they'll give credit for (earned at another institution, life, work experience, AP, CLEP, EOC, etc) and what they'll waive (e.g., things like PE, language, or some speech requirement or such) are entirely up to each school's admissions/transfer policies, and often vary even more widely within the same college among the individual departments and their degree programs.
Richard
Trapper John
04-24-2014, 11:09
C2 - Great post and a very well written article. Reminded me of exactly what I ran into. I tried to get the 4 semster PE credit waived. That was a no go. So I took orienteering (read land navigation) 1 semester. The final was an orienteering course. What a joke- I beat the school record by 1hr 5 minutes. :D
Same thing with microbiology - tried to place out and it was a no go. Went to the first class and no more, just showed up for the silly assed labs, tests, mid-term and final. Aced the course! The fire-hose method we got in 300F1 really works. (thank you Major Sominex :D )
My point is that in general you can't fight academic system (it's geared to kids and professors not folks like us), just play the game, have fun with it (many, many opportunities for that), teach those youngsters a thing or two, pick your battles, ruck up, and march on. You will be glad you did. ;)
So C2, are you considering a career as writer?
To me it's apples and oranges. Two very different worlds with very different experience to be gained. This coming from a guy with a BA, then went SF, then a master's program for PA school. Again, two different worlds, there may be a lot of cross-over, but for the most part, different skill sets are needed to navigate each.
There is nothing comparable to the intensity found through SF military training and its real world application. But it's not all encompassing and there is plenty out there in the world of academia to be gained which the Q-course doesn't provide.
One small example is the importance of communication. There are a lot of veterans out there that struggle in college because they lack some of the important research, analytical and writing skills needed to jump the hoops of academia. Grammar is actually important after all. It's something that needs to be learned, just like any skill, it's obtained through practice and application, or as some may refer to it "education".
Now, that being said, my own personal opinion is that our university/college system in this country has gone overboard and is more about milking every penny out of you and less about preparing you for the real world.
My $0.02.
I wrote the article.. I understand where guys are coming from saying I sound like a whiner.
I didn't write the article for the sympathy as a 'woe is me' thing. I'm drawing attention to an issue that obviously strikes a nerve with a lot of military veterans... and I did do my research as I wrote the article... but already had the article written as I learned more options I had at my disposal. I felt it was important to post as is.
Up until the other day, I had never heard of the Joint Service Transcript. I learned from a buddy about arguing for getting classes accepted. I've picked up a lot of good advice after the article was posted. Bottom line -- the system is far more difficult than it needs to be. I understand the 'play the game' argument, but most guys simply get fed up after years of the military 'game' and say fuck this. Then they end up drinking themselves stupid and eating pills from the VA rather than driving forward towards a degree.
I'm close to graduating at this point, so I don't have any illusions of helping myself in all of this. If I can help guys down the road avoid classes they're already proficient in so they can get into the real world quicker, I'll again feel like I accomplished something with this article...
Trust me, I'm not easily angered or frustrated, and I don't whine in person. I wouldn't have made it through the X-ray program if I was easily angered, frustrated, or a bitching crybaby. This topic has been a sore spot with me because I recognize the glaring flaws in it and it is simply the first fight I've felt worth fighting in a long time.
If you don't agree with my assessment, so be it. I chose to speak up about it and the emotion I injected into the article seems to have gotten attention on the topic.
If we were talking about the topic in the teamroom would you tell me to quit whining and play the game or would you see value in working towards changing the game?
Blake
Wondered if you would chime in. Good article...... You wrote as the process makes you feel. No wining seen here but I hated the process also. University's have no love for giving away any classes no mater what you have already done. They say they support the Vets and professionals with experience until you ask them to put pen to paper and give credit.
Peregrino
04-24-2014, 21:07
Academia - one of the original self-licking ice cream cones. Nice commentary C2. The experiences you relate closely match my own. Together, they make for one of the principle reasons I haven't pursued a Master's degree yet - and probably never will.
Trapper John
04-25-2014, 07:53
Academia - one of the original self-licking ice cream cones. Nice commentary C2. The experiences you relate closely match my own. Together, they make for one of the principle reasons I haven't pursued a Master's degree yet - and probably never will.
Illegitimi non carborundum ;)
Trapper John
04-25-2014, 08:03
Blake
Wondered if you would chime in. Good article...... You wrote as the process makes you feel. No wining seen here but I hated the process also. University's have no love for giving away any classes no mater what you have already done. They say they support the Vets and professionals with experience until you ask them to put pen to paper and give credit.
What SF BHT said, Oh and BTW Blake, we know you are not a whiner. ;)
Frankly, I loved the emotional angle you took on the article. Rang very true to my experience. It's a talent to do what you did in that article. Your frustration and anger was palpable and if the reader didn't feel it too, well then, they must be brain dead. "F'em and the horse they rode in on."
Illegitimi non carborundum ;)
My favorite Lt Kadish! :lifter
DLI credits went a long way back in my day. Also had an easier experience transferring credits back then compared to reading this string. Ah, the good old days... :rolleyes:
Mr Furious
04-26-2014, 06:11
One thing that I feel needs to be fixed is the USASFC and USAJFKSWCS to have the SWCS Dept of Ed get with American Council on Education and get credit to guys for what SWCS Teaches.
And there it is. Some courses receive substantial recommended credit, and others receive little to none. I was told it came down to how the plans and foundational documents of a course are written and conveyed upon submission for evaluation. If consistent in taxonomy, form, and language with what is familiar to those evaluating at ACE then it stands a better chance of being well received and granted credit.
War as the new AP?
Vets Want Class Credit For Military Skills
A growing number of military veterans are wondering why they don't get class credit for the skills they acquired in uniform. As their numbers increase with the war in Afghanistan winding down, states are questioning if vets are being deprived of an earned head start.
http://time.com/#87696/military-veterans-education/
Richard
My wife advises non-traditional student (adults returning to college)at a very large state university. At one time, she ran a program that provided off-campus classes at MacDill AFB. She says many times military (active/former/retired) expect to receive credit for what are considered "vocational courses" by the university. No way Jose!
Does anyone know if the fellas who returned from WWII and used their new GI Bill education benefits received any/much academic credit depending on their training/experience?
FWIW, civilians have to jump through many of the same hoops.
For me, the take away is that academics see themselves as the gate keepers to their respective professions and stewards of the reputations of the schools where they work. Within this dual role, I think it is appropriate for academics to exercise their perogatives when it comes to matters of transferring credit from one instittution to another and/or granting credit for experiences gained outside the Ivory Tower.
I understand that many membrs of this BB have a dim view of eggheads and the Ivory Tower. However, I would point out that many of the "rules of the game" that empower academics to regulate what goes on within the Ivory Tower are very similar to those that grant members of the American professions of arms a very high level of autonomy when it comes to the selection, training, and evaluation of their membership. My enduring concern is that certain types of efforts to delegitimize one established profession can be repurposed to delegitimze others.
My $0.02.
IMHO my issue with the college system is the extraneous bullshit you have to take for a degree that has noting to do with what you are interested in. Example, nursing degree requires speech, poly sci etc. It is noting more than a money grab by the schools and their excuse is they say you are a more rounded student. Bullshit!. The liberals are always preaching about we need to learn from the Europeans. In Europe your classes are only directly related to your degree no extra crap.First, were it not for "liberals" drawing from "Europe", promotion in the American army would be based upon seniority.
Second, I think you're over generalizing about nursing programs. A RN I know rather well makes very good use of the "lessons learned" in classes that were not directly related to medicine. This person takes the profession of nursing very seriously and attempts to view every learning opportunity as a training opportunity.
Third, I think you're misinformed IRT how academic institutions generate revenue. For example, during the 2011-2012 academic year, student fees made up about 13% of the University of California at Berkeley's revenue <<LINK (http://budget.universityofcalifornia.edu/?page_id=1120)>>.
mojaveman
05-07-2014, 19:36
Colleges are businesses. It isn't in their financial interests to give military credit.
Exactly.
I was going to try and use several military courses that I completed towards a degree in the Liberal Arts and was only able to use them for one quarter of physical education.
And by the way, I learned far more about myself, people, cultural and physical geography, etc. in the military than I ever learned in a college classroom.
First you must think I hate everything about Europe. In fact that is not the case, but our culture is different from Europe yet there are things we could learn from them ie how NOT to make a socialist society as well as how we CAN streamline our education system. Some things they do better, some tings they do different and some things they screw up. The same can be said for this country.
Second, Ms Okie has her MASTERS in nursing that is why I was using RN as an example, but I could pick any degree and wonder why does it now take 5-6 years of education to get a four year degree with extra crap that is not directly related to the degree. BTW I used to be a paramedic and have also looked into RN programs and a PA program of late. While I am sure your friend gets something from his extra classes it is still unnecessary. If he likes taking those classes more power to him but for the average college student trying to get a degree and go into the world it is just more expense they have to go in debt for and/or their parents pay for. Add to that is is classes many are not interested in and it distracts them from their goal. Academia is out of touch with the real world and need to pull their head out of their four point of contact and look how low we score on the leading world of education. Instead of pushing PC bullshit to further their agenda, they need to educate students to go into the real world, something many of them just don't get that, they live in the world of academics and theory instead of reality. BTW that goes for K through PhD department.
Third. You may have a point on this one. In fact you are probably correct. As I rethink it and look at your numbers, check degree requirements etc money is not the motivation factor. My new thought it is pushing their liberal agenda on all students.
The same could be said about the military. If you want to succeed in college or the military, you have to play the game by their rules.
EDIT: BTW does the military recognize and give credit for college degrees? Yes, in fact they are required for O positions for the most part and Masters and above score well on OAR's. There USED to be a program where AD officers could go back and get higher level degrees and that was their duty assignment. It might still be in place I don' know, the the military recognizes accomplishments outside of its self, why does academia not? IMHO they are just arrogant and self serving.
That's not giving credit (as a college), the degree is a prerequisite for the job.
When I was in SFTG, there was a guy in my land navigation class who was a civil engineer who mapped timber land for a living. Do you think SFTG let him skip that block of instruction??? No way Josey! The guy should have been teaching the course
I call bullshit on your HO.
First you must think I hate everything about Europe.I think a great many of your posts on this BB pretty well establish your views on those who do not live their lives as you think they should regardless of where they live.
I think that a great many of your posts contribute to a larger pattern. This pattern sees America rejecting guidance it received more than two centuries ago and hurls the nation to utter ruin.Observe good faith and justice towards all nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct; and can it be, that good policy does not equally enjoin it - It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and at no distant period, a great nation, to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt that, in the course of time and things, the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages which might be lost by a steady adherence to it? Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a nation with its virtue? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human nature. Alas! is it rendered impossible by its vices?
In the execution of such a plan, nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges towards another a habitual hatred or a habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable, when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur. Hence, frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation, prompted by ill-will and resentment, sometimes impels to war the government, contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject; at other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations, has been the victim.*
__________________________________________________
* George Washington, "Farewell Address," September, 19, 1796.
r point using your example I disagree with it. There is no reason the Army medic program is not as good or better than the local college EMT basic program. Mind you that is what I did as a living for 9 years and taught the medic program, PHTLS instructor, ACLS, PALS bla bla bla.
If you disagree with the H with the IMHO I could care less. I have formed my opinion from experience and again neither of us will change the others mind so we will have to agree to disagree.
EMT = Vocational training, be it in the Army, at a community college, or VoTech.
Your experience appears to be at the CC level....My wife has been on the faculty of a very large state university for over 30 years...so having been a student at two universities, I have been exposed to both sides of the equation for a many, many years.
BTW, I fail to see that your timber story has anything to do with the subject of this thread.
If an EMT enlists in the Army, will they let him/her skip any portion(s) of the training for medics? How about first aid instruction in basic?
Education offers the potential to gain perspective, context, and opportunity, and America, like no other nation in the world, offers the opportunity to gain an education...even if it's in hamburger technology.
A well-informed mind is the best security against the contagion of folly and of vice. The vacant mind is ever on the watch for relief, and ready to plunge into error, to escape from the languor of idleness.
- Ann Radcliffe (1764 - 1823), The Mysteries of Udolpho, 1764
A few thoughtful reads that - combined with my personal experiences as a student, teacher, and edcational administrator - influenced my thinking on education:
John Kuhn's Fear and Learning in America - Bad Data, Good Teachers, and the Attack on Public Education. Teachers College Press, NY.
Jonathan Kozol's Savage Inequalities - Children In America's Schools. HarperCollins, NY.
Frederick Rudolph's The American College and University - A History. Univ of Georgia Press.
Craig Steven Wilder's Ebony and Ivy - Race, Slavery, and the Troubled History of America's Universities. Bloomsbury Press, NY.
Gutes lesen.
Richard
Trapper John
05-08-2014, 13:52
Sigaba & Richard :lifter
That about sums it up IMO. Sometimes I think we have forgotten the real purpose of an eduction - to develop critical thinking skills and learn how to learn. And yes there is value in a nursing or engineering or chemistry student taking political science, or art, or history, or philosophy, or English literature from Chaucer to Dunne.
A couple of years ago they University had cut all their majors that were relevant to the area except nursing, and added environmental friendly courses. Mind you this place USED to be the top college in the US for forestry programs to get into logging. Guess what, they got rid of their nursing program and kept shit degrees that no one can really use. here are some I got off their site.
Energy and Climate
Ecological restoration
Energy and Climate
Native American Studies.
I just noticed: Multicultural Queer Studies. I shit you not.
http://www.humboldt.edu/humboldt/programs/descriptions/1573/
http://www.humboldt.edu/humboldt/programs/type
I don't know why you find that hard to believe? I don't find any of those majors odd or useless. If I had the time, I'd persue a degree in Native American Studies
http://www.indiana.edu/~gender/resources/qsStudies.shtml
Sigaba & Richard :lifter
That about sums it up IMO. Sometimes I think we have forgotten the real purpose of an eduction - to develop critical thinking skills and learn how to learn. And yes there is value in a nursing or engineering or chemistry student taking political science, or art, or history, or philosophy, or English literature from Chaucer to Dunne.
Amen! I believe some here never understood the concept!
I don't know why you find that hard to believe? I don't find any of those majors odd or useless. If I had the time, I'd persue a degree in Native American Studies
http://www.indiana.edu/~gender/resources/qsStudies.shtml
It all depends on what you want to do with the degree. Doesn't really mater if you're just learning for learning's sake.
This is dated from 2011 but does cover some of the major degree fields.
"The College Majors That Do Best in the Job Market"
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/the-college-majors-that-do-best-in-the-job-market/
"...The major that produced the most graduates in jobs that required degrees was education and teaching; 71.1 percent of this discipline’s alumni had jobs for which a bachelor’s was a prerequisite. This is probably not surprising, since so many of these grads became teachers.
Engineering had the next-best track record, with 69.4 percent of its graduates placed in college labor market jobs.
The majors with the worst placement records were area studies (44.7 percent in degree-requiring jobs) and humanities (45.4 percent)...."
mojaveman
05-08-2014, 18:53
It all depends on what you want to do with the degree. Doesn't really mater if you're just learning for learning's sake.
This is dated from 2011 but does cover some of the major degree fields.
"The College Majors That Do Best in the Job Market"
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/the-college-majors-that-do-best-in-the-job-market/
"...The major that produced the most graduates in jobs that required degrees was education and teaching; 71.1 percent of this discipline’s alumni had jobs for which a bachelor’s was a prerequisite. This is probably not surprising, since so many of these grads became teachers.
Engineering had the next-best track record, with 69.4 percent of its graduates placed in college labor market jobs.
The majors with the worst placement records were area studies (44.7 percent in degree-requiring jobs) and humanities (45.4 percent)...."
Interesting point. Around 2000 my sister in law's sister graduated from Georgetown University with a degree in Middle Eastern studies that included learning Arabic. Everyone told her that she would never find a job with an education like that. I sh*t you not, a few months after the 9/11 attacks some folks who work for a U.S. government agency came and knocked on her door.
I think a great many of your posts on this BB pretty well establish your views on those who do not live their lives as you think they should regardless of where they live.
Sorry, but that is the pot calling the kettle black.
...a degree in Native American Studies.
If you are a guy trying to get a degree it is useless or next to it.
If you want to go to college and for pure enrichment purposes only fine, but for someone that wants to get a degree that he can enhance getting a job its as useless as tits on a bore hog.
Anectdotally, I disagree.
I hired a teacher with an MA in Native American Studies who had spent many years in the Southwest and was fluent in Spanish. He taught 1 class of Native American History and 4 classes of Spanish per semester for our high school students. As a unique offering to our social studies programs, his class was always full. He now runs the YMCA's community programs for Shreveport, LA.
A healthy person without a criminal background and a degree (including something like Native American Studies) from an accredited college or university can apply for entry level career training in something like OCS or a major metropolitan PD or many other career choices. Without it, many of those choices are limited.
A degree, even if it is specific (e.g., JD, MD, BSCE, BSN, etc), only offers opportunity. It then becomes a matter of what you do with the opportunity.
My daughter-in-law has a BA in English Lit. She has a very well-paid job for AT&T editing documents and publications produced by their übergeeks so people like us can understand what they were trying to say.
My youngest son's degree is in Art History and Biology. He was interested in medical illustration and thought he wanted to teach, but couldn't find a position at a high school and didn't enjoy the lower school crowd. He co-manages an electronics store and is engaged in the hiring process for a major metropolitan FD. If he didn't have a 4 year degree, they wouldn't have even considered him.
My undergrad is in General Studies (more or less a broad high school approach through college with a focus on History because I was interested in many things) and my grad degree is in West European Studies (one of those area studies programs) with additional post-grad coursework in education. The education I received in those programs, combined with my life experiences, served me well in my military and educational careers.
FWIW - I, too, would like to take some courses in Native American history but am currently looking to take some courses beginning this summer in viticulture from UC Davis for personal interest and some plans we have here on the ranch.
Good luck with your studies, but I'd advise against taking such a self-limiting view of them and encouraging others to do the same. MOO.
Richard
GratefulCitizen
05-09-2014, 08:45
When it comes to hoop-jumping, education institutions will do whatever the market allows.
The problems aren't created by the institutions.
The problems are market distortions created by excess federal subsidies and gate-keeping power created by occupational licensing.
FWIW, if pay is your goal in getting a degree, pick the right major.
http://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report-2014/majors-that-pay-you-back
Roguish Lawyer
05-09-2014, 10:56
Not to piss in anyone's cheerios, but if I join the army now, do I get to start as a Colonel? :munchin
Whole post
Brother,
All well said and your right. I have jumped from college because of what you wrote. Yes like many have said college is a game, heck so is the Military.
Hopefully people get from your article, everyone else can be haters.
charlietwo
05-09-2014, 12:14
Hopefully people get from your article, everyone else can be haters.
Thanks brother. It's in my nature to identify problems and advise on solutions.
Hell, I'm a highly trained adviser, no? :)
Roguish Lawyer
05-09-2014, 13:25
Not to piss in anyone's cheerios, but if I join the army now, do I get to start as a Colonel? :munchin
Got a PM saying maybe, LOL
Roguish Lawyer
05-09-2014, 14:18
Actually It Would Probably Be Major Possably Captian
Drs Start At Major I Believe
Dude, for me it would almost certainly start at Major General or possibly even 18D ;) J/K
The Reaper
05-09-2014, 16:51
Dude, for me it would almost certainly start at Major General or possibly even 18D ;) J/K
Let's not get too carried away here.
Some teams need lawyers more than Docs, BTW.:D
TR
Golf1echo
05-09-2014, 19:15
And there it is. Some courses receive substantial recommended credit, and others receive little to none. I was told it came down to how the plans and foundational documents of a course are written and conveyed upon submission for evaluation. If consistent in taxonomy, form, and language with what is familiar to those evaluating at ACE then it stands a better chance of being well received and granted credit.
This seems reasonable, success is spelled WORK
Not to piss in anyone's cheerios, but if I join the army now, do I get to start as a Colonel? :munchin
How would you feel about moving down to the South? It might be a different Army though.
I put myself through school and then went into the service, I can see a lot of skills picked up in the service being handy to get through any college program. One incedent comes up for me when I read some of the posts. During phase 2 of the Charlie course a Sgt J... ran our study group at night up on our second floor off of Gruber. Besides making sure we were always up to speed he amazed me with his insightful simple ways of demystifying the math involved. It was night and day difference from Statics in Architecture School, he and fellow members had us all doing quite well, Sgt J... had never been to college. Intelligence comes in many forms.
I have seen articles about my degree being one of the top 10 worst degrees to get...I wouldn't trade it for the world and the gems came from a wide variety of subject matters.
Last hard class
05-09-2014, 20:50
Thanks brother. It's in my nature to identify problems and advise on solutions.
Hell, I'm a highly trained adviser, no? :)
What am I missing here? After spending years surrounded by male butt stink, you then get to college and the one class you want to opt out of is co-ed volleyball?:D
LHC
Actually It Would Probably Be Major Possably Captian
Drs Start At Major I Believe
Boy, the Army docs I know that spent time as LTs and CPTs after med school are gonna be pissed when they hear about this.
...co-ed volleyball?:D
LHC
You just reminded me that you have been derelict in providing me with continuing updated photos of Women's Beach Volleyball photographs. :D The season is upon us. ;)
Pat
Anyway we seem to be getting a bit off track on the original point of should the colleges give more credit for military training. IMHO yes,...
And that may well be your opinion, but the fact is that whether or not colleges give or deny credit for things like life or work experience, coursework from another college or institution, AP or EOC exams, etc, remains entirely up to the discretion of the individual colleges IAW their program requirements, their experiences with previous students, and the recommendations of the program directing departments themselves.
In lieu of that, are you (and others here) now advocating for some form of 'common core' standardized college credit awarding system? :confused:
Richard
Boy, the Army docs I know that spent time as LTs and CPTs after med school are gonna be pissed when they hear about this.
It was my understanding, years ago, that an MD coming into the Army started at an advanced rank. I am not talking about one straing out of med school but one with all his/her internships, and specialties behind them.
I saw medical officers enter the Army at ranks from 2LT (med school needing internship) up to LTC (MD with highly advanced specialties and board certification). The majority (med school, internship, residency) came in as CPT and had to go through a short course at FSH to learn about the Army, MEDCOM, and how to (in very basic general terms and with mixed success) be an officer.
As with colleges accepting/denying credit, it varied greatly.
Richard
Monsoon65
05-11-2014, 19:24
I saw medical officers enter the Army at ranks from 2LT (med school needing internship) up to LTC (MD with highly advanced specialties and board certification). The majority (med school, internship, residency) came in as CPT and had to go through a short course at FSH to learn about the Army, MEDCOM, and how to (in very basic general terms and with mixed success) be an officer.
That is correct. My ex is an Optometrist. When she joined the AF, she was swore in as a 1LT because she hadn't completed school yet.
When she graduated a few months later and left for the AF and go thru the "Charm School" as they called it. she was a Captain.
At Tinker AFB there was a GP Doc that was brought on as a LTC. He had retired from his civilian practice, kids all grown up and he and his wife decided they wanted to travel. :D
The Reaper
05-11-2014, 19:51
My pediatrician left his civilian practice and joined the Army in his 50s as an LTC, IIRC.
TR
charlietwo
05-13-2014, 23:14
In lieu of that, are you (and others here) now advocating for some form of 'common core' standardized college credit awarding system? :confused:
Richard
The military and ACE already attempt that with the Joint Service Transcripts, though I firmly believe there is a dramatic difference between college-college transfers of credits and military-college transfers. Also, I know my JST is half-baked since most of my training wasn't evaluated by ACE for some reason (almost all of the Q-course except language).
If a college receives public funding, why would it be absurd to require them to accept training received at the federal level?
I've considered the analogy of interstate commerce since college credits could be considered a form of intangible private property that is awarded by private and public institution that can be transferred across state borders.
At the end of the day, the less time and money spent in college equates to more productivity in the real world.