View Full Version : Missing Malaysian Airliner
Haven't seen this posted yet, so I'll post a link:
http://pamelageller.com/2014/03/malaysia-airlines-crash-terror-fears-stolen-passports-used-missing-plane.html/
Sorry. My goof. This was a Malaysian airliner. Meant to correct this earlier.
RedLegGI
03-11-2014, 07:27
Hearing about this the last few days has been kind of crazy with all the speculation. They've figured out one of the two stolen passports users was an Iranian teenager who was seeking asylum. Should be interesting to see how the rest develops.
On a side note, they're talking about how it went off radar at 35,000 feet and all the trouble they're having finding debris. I was kind of wondering why these aircraft don't have GPS locators or something? Black boxes tell the story but you'd figure they would have these as a good means for a last location.
FlagDayNCO
03-11-2014, 07:59
Radio show this morning mentioned that the current Rolls Royce engines in the 777 transmit data back to RR, for technical purposes. RR spokes person stated they had received no operational alerts, or anything related to engine health monitoring data.
With it going off radar at 35000 feet and no alerts being transmitted, sounds like all forms of communications stopped. The RR engines and data transmissions have their own power supply and transmission capapbilities.
The has to be some sort of explanation for the disappearance one of the worlds largest commercial airlines. I'm not sure what that explanation IS; but the answer is out there
Ahhhh HelloooOOOOoooo ..... Langoliers !!!!! ..... Doesn't anyone read Stephen King anymore ???? :rolleyes:
If you're interested in a high degree of detail, the FlyerTalk forum / MH370 thread (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/other-asian-australian-south-pacific-airlines/1558464-mh370-772-kul-pek-missing-1730-gmt-7-mar-2014-sar-underway-read-wiki-first.html) is the place for you.
They're up to 154 pages and over 2300 posts, so there's a lot of tin foil to step over. Did the plane turn back, bungled official response, stolen passports, radar coverage, RR engines, why some passenger cell phones ringing, plane is on the ground in China, etc etc....it's all there. ;)
There were a lot of early Saturday (Asia time) tweets that the plane was on the ground in Nanning, China. I still find this rumor most intriguing. If the tweets/Facebook posts were fake, why Nanning? It's not coastal or anywhere near the KL/Beijing flight path. Supposedly civilians in Nanning posted to social media Sat morning that the plane had safely landed. Those reports quickly dried up, but those people might have been shut up and the plane moved/hid.
And there is the mystery of the passengers' ringing cell phones. Some of them were still ringing out long after the accident and showing up on the Chinese QQ messaging network. Doesn't seem possible if the phones were underwater or in Vietnam/Thailand/Malaysia cell space. So this is also feeding the rumor the plane is in China.
Sad for the families....whatever the real answer is.
And there is the mystery of the passengers' ringing cell phones. Some of them were still ringing out long after the accident and showing up on the Chinese QQ messaging network. Doesn't seem possible if the phones were underwater or in Vietnam/Thailand/Malaysia cell space. So this is also feeding the rumor the plane is in China.
The cell phones still ringing does not mean anything. There are networks that would allow them to still ring even if the phone is destroyed. This is because the subscribers account is still active at the server substation. It does not really mean the phone is complete or not. The QQ messaging network also means nothing. Because if they were signed on when something happened to the phones, the servers could still keep the account active until some other change or the servers time out the connection.
Sadly, neither really shows anything. To those whom lost is really what is important now. I understand their desperation and confusion with the things that seem impossible in times of total emotional chaos. However, in the case of the phones and computer servers there is a reasonable explanation.
The five people manifested but didn't actually get on the plane. Thats also common, especially for international flights. People back out, have to cancel last minute, don't understand the language and miss announcements.....etc.
This is really strange. Must be like Christmas for the tin foil crowed.
The Viper
03-12-2014, 07:25
To much publicity on the Bermuda Triangle. Ancient aliens are setting up shop in the pacific now.
...the passengers of flight 370 may well be on a deserted tropical island, wondering what the fuck the "smoke monster" is all about!
mark46th
03-12-2014, 08:07
I volunteer to become a searcher. I will be working out of my FOB at Ban Sang. My house girls will take messages and advise me of any credible leads...
Streck-Fu
03-12-2014, 08:15
I volunteer to become a searcher. I will be working out of my FOB at Ban Sang. My house girls will take messages and advise me of any credible leads...
Need an armorer? :lifter
The Reaper
03-12-2014, 08:18
I volunteer to become a searcher. I will be working out of my FOB at Ban Sang. My house girls will give massages and advise me of any credible needs...
Here, fixed that for you. :D
TR
Prayers out for any affected by this, and I sincerely hope it didn't crash. However until details come to light, I'm also hoping that this isn't a stunt to promote Cast Away 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox9HhepG1NU)
mark46th
03-12-2014, 08:51
TR- Oh yeah. Those, too...
It would be a sad day if the ChiComs picked up the wreck site with their satelites while ours didn't.....
Or maybe ours did but the powers that be didn't want to let anyone know. Would that be sadder?
The Reaper
03-12-2014, 20:46
It would be a sad day if the ChiComs picked up the wreck site with their satelites while ours didn't.....
Or maybe ours did but the powers that be didn't want to let anyone know. Would that be sadder?
I thought the same thing when I heard that.
WTF were our satellites doing?
Or has the budget cut hampered their operation as well?
TR
our satellites are busy watching Americans; why would they be pointed outward?
...ain't nobody got time for 'dat
I thought the same thing when I heard that.
WTF were our satellites doing?
Or has the budget cut hampered their operation as well?
TR
Maybe they did see...and what they saw confirms no possible survivors. In that case, less reason to come forth with information, as bad as that sucks for the families.
Or, they didn't see it. In that case... WTF???
Been following this case closely because I fly a lot for work (200,000 miles last year and mostly international flights where I don't know if other countries have the same standards of maintenance and security checks).
Scary to learn that checks against an Interpol stolen passport database wasn't done. Wow... So prior to this incident, flights could have had folks on board with false identities regardless of intention to illegally enter a country or to partake in terrorist activities. Crazy.
Even scarier is that this non-checking against the Interpol database is the norm for most countries. Supposedly one article quoted that US does perform such checks, but did not mention if this is done for every single flight or only international flights (I flew with my passport for 3 months even for internal US flights while I fought Chicago bureacracy to get me ID/license back that they misplaced. No TSA person checked my passport outside of pic to face match. Plus all my boarding passes were done online).
Anyhows, my Malaysian friends always complain about the rampant corruption and ineffectual government in Malaysia. As bad as I think the state and federal government here, I would like to think they would have handled such a crisis much much better.
The article below is pretty telling.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/13/world/asia/missing-jet-exposes-a-dysfunctional-malaysian-elite.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0
At this point, this is getting ridiculous. Flight turned around and flew and extra ~2hrs Ina a different direction. Or maybe not. Regardless, did the Malaysian Air Force not know there was an up identified aircraft in its airspace flying for more than an hour?? Crazy.
spherojon
03-13-2014, 16:15
So, 6 Days later, US sends 1 ship.
The U.S. Navy 7th Fleet said it is moving one of its ships, the USS Kidd, into the Strait of Malacca, west of Malaysia.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=289275401
Not an expert, but a destroyer to look for a plane as opposed to a satellite or recon plane? Wonder what the cost ratio is between those 3 resources.
...ain't nobody got time for 'dat
You owe me a new t-shirt for spitting coffee all over mine laughing so hard.
Ambush Master
03-13-2014, 21:23
So, 6 Days later, US sends 1 ship.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=289275401
Not an expert, but a destroyer to look for a plane as opposed to a satellite or recon plane? Wonder what the cost ratio is between those 3 resources.
You owe me a new t-shirt for spitting coffee all over mine laughing so hard.
Aircraft, including Sats, cant pick up the ULB Signal!!! Only Water-borne or Water-sensing platforms can. The "Pinger" has a battery life of 30 days, unless it's been "Upgraded" and then it could last for 60!! Also, depending on the depth, the signal has a limited range!!
Please see: http://www.radiantpowercorp.com/dukane-seacom-locator-beacons.aspx
I've been with "The Airlines" for over 40 years and I know this Shit!!
Any questions, give a shou!!
Later
Martin
Team Sergeant
03-13-2014, 21:25
So, 6 Days later, US sends 1 ship.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=289275401
Not an expert, but a destroyer to look for a plane as opposed to a satellite or recon plane? Wonder what the cost ratio is between those 3 resources.
You owe me a new t-shirt for spitting coffee all over mine laughing so hard.
So tell me how many US military man hours should we spend looking for another countries civilian aircraft? :rolleyes:
Ambush Master
03-13-2014, 21:43
So tell me how many US military man hours should we spend looking for another countries civilian aircraft? :rolleyes:
So I guess if the 3 Souls in Benghazi don't matter, then neither should these?!?!
Other than the possibility of this Aircraft being "Re-Tasked" as a "Deployment Vehicle/Delivery System" for some Weapon,......................?!?!?!
Just Think'n!
Martin
So I guess if the 3 Souls in Benghazi don't matter, then neither should these?!?!
Good point! - but hardly the same, don't you agree?
Ambush Master
03-13-2014, 22:25
Good point! - but hardly the same, don't you agree?
The "Point" is really, the rest of my statement.
I was merely playing off of "Hillary's" statement as to why we should't do anything as compared to what kind of "Plausable Threat" we could be facing.
I wonder if the cockpit fire in an Egyptair 777 a few years ago might be relevant?
http://www.avherald.com/h?article=44078aa7&opt=0
It was catastrophic and incredibly fast moving, and not really covered in the media as it occurred on the ground and no casualties.
Reportedly 280 777 airframes may have had the same fault.
----------
Has there been any reportage of cargo being ruled out as being possibly relevant?
I wonder what rules/restrictions are involved with cargo value?
I would think insurance underwriters would have a lot to say about splitting up ultra high value, small cube cargo across multiple flights to avoid putting too many eggs in a single Boeing basket, but who knows?
Radio show this morning mentioned that the current Rolls Royce engines in the 777 transmit data back to RR, for technical purposes. RR spokes person stated they had received no operational alerts, or anything related to engine health monitoring data.
With it going off radar at 35000 feet and no alerts being transmitted, sounds like all forms of communications stopped. The RR engines and data transmissions have their own power supply and transmission capapbilities.
Details here:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/03/13/revealed-engine-data-indicates-malaysian-plane-flew-four-hours-after-disappearing/
The engines’ onboard monitoring system is provided by their manufacturer, Rolls-Royce, and it periodically sends bursts of data about engine health, operations and aircraft movements to facilities on the ground.
As part of its maintenance agreements, Malaysia Airlines transmits its engine data live to Rolls-Royce for analysis. The system compiles data from inside the 777′s two Trent 800 engines and transmits snapshots of performance, as well as the altitude and speed of the jet.
The engines communicate with the ground every half hour, and now U.S. investigators believe the engines indicated the plane may have been flying up to five hours after taking off from Malaysia.
(continues)
spherojon
03-14-2014, 14:13
So tell me how many US military man hours should we spend looking for another countries civilian aircraft? :rolleyes:
Honestly, none. My first knee jerk reaction, was that the US knows something everyone else doesn't, and in a show of "good faith" sent out 1 ship...just 6 days later.
Aircraft, including Sats, cant pick up the ULB Signal!!! Only Water-borne or Water-sensing platforms can. The "Pinger" has a battery life of 30 days, unless it's been "Upgraded" and then it could last for 60!! Also, depending on the depth, the signal has a limited range!!
Please see: http://www.radiantpowercorp.com/duka...r-beacons.aspx
I've been with "The Airlines" for over 40 years and I know this Shit!!
Awesome, thank you for the info.
PokemonMaster
03-14-2014, 23:26
Reports are coming in that the plane was hijacked. A press conference is imminent. (By either terrorist of the Pilots themselves)
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_MALAYSIA_PLANE?SITE=MYPSP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-03-14-23-57-32
PokemonMaster
03-14-2014, 23:35
Link to the press conference that is being attended by the PM
http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/live-video/2/
PokemonMaster
03-15-2014, 00:28
PM just confirmed that ACARS was intentionally disable and the transponder was switched off. Foul play involved.
Other than the possibility of this Aircraft being "Re-Tasked" as a "Deployment Vehicle/Delivery System" for some Weapon,......................?!?!?!
Just Think'n!
Martin
My thoughts as well. I think someone just acquired a B-777 sized cruise missile.
Pat
Chinese Martyrs’ Brigade has claimed responsibility for crashing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370
http://chainsoff.wordpress.com/2014/03/12/malysia-airplane-crash-chinese-martyrs-brigade-claims-responsibility-for-flight-mh370/
Well this is an interesting development in this crazy plane ride of events.
For me the whole, how a 777 can just fall out of the sky and not one of the big powers knows anything.
Hell NORAD can track Santa Clause across the world! :D
Utah Bob
03-15-2014, 09:56
Population of flight 370: 239
Population of Ukraine: 45,593,000
I just watched 32 minutes of coverage on the missing plane and 5 minutes of the Ukraine/Russia crisis. Putin is laughing his ass off.
:rolleyes:
Guymullins
03-15-2014, 13:45
A scenario that begins to make some sense from the jumble of part information in this saga is: The aircraft was pirated, most likely by its own crew , because of access to cockpit and signaling apparatus. The avoidance of radar suggests people very familiar with the route and flying that type of aircraft. If the pirates are making demands that , if made public would cause the Chinese or Malaysians to lose face, they would suppress any publication, both to avoid being embarrassed and to give them time to find the plane and stage an attack. The attack may have already occurred , and if it was a fiasco, the Chinese and or the Malaysians would prefer a "missing jet mystery" to a totally botched rescue. One must presume that Malaysia and or China are not telling the whole story, especially after the Rolls Royce information coming not from either government, but from the company itself.
Thats my two bits.
The Reaper
03-15-2014, 13:50
The Malaysians have not been forthcoming since the beginning.
The Chinese can be counted on to act in their own best interest.
They will release information as the emerging situation requires it. Not before.
And the Russians will use this as cover for their own activities.
TR
ddoering
03-15-2014, 17:29
And where do you hide a big ass plane and almost 300 guests?
Perhaps Abbatobad?
Guymullins
03-16-2014, 04:45
And where do you hide a big ass plane and almost 300 guests?
Perhaps Abbatobad?
Didn't you guys build hundreds of airfields in that part of the woods?
Didn't you guys build hundreds of airfields in that part of the woods?
Maybe not hundreds, but I'm thinking we have more than one radar site and/or in air tracking system with pretty tight grid coverage..
The area that is currently the prime candidate for search is covered by air controllers in Diego Garcia (c pic).. That and the other air traffic control towers in that area, makes one think that someone should have seen the plane??
:munchin
Seems more and more that the pilots and/or crew had something to do with this plane.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2581817/Doomed-airliner-pilot-political-fanatic-Hours-taking-control-flight-MH370-attended-trial-jailed-opposition-leader-sodomite.html
That and the other air traffic control towers in that area, makes one think that someone should have seen the plane??
:munchin
To date, nine days after the plane disappeared, the only place on the ground that the plane has allegedly been seen is Nanning, China. The only place.
Those tweets were in the early hours of March 8 Asia time, evening of March 7 US time. And those tweets have all been deleted. I wish I had screen capped them.
They were from citizens - not military, not government, not airlines - stating the plane had safely landed. The governments of Malaysia and China quickly denied/discredited those rumors. But that doesn't mean it's not true.
:munchin
The folks in the press keep saying that this is unprecedented, but it's not. In the late '70s, Varig "lost" a cargo flight from Tokyo to Rio (via LAX) about a half an hour after takeoff and it was never found. Oh, by the way, it was carrying a load of valuable paintings.
Pat
Snaquebite
03-16-2014, 14:52
Some are wondering if maybe the plane was hijacked and stolen for use later on as a weapon to conduct another 9/11.
I believe that was suggested by a QP on page 2 of this thread....:)
The Reaper
03-16-2014, 15:34
Some are wondering if maybe the plane was hijacked and stolen for use later on as a weapon to conduct another 9/11.
You cannot hide something as large as a 777 without serious assistance, likely state sponsored.
TR
You cannot hide something as large as a 777 without serious assistance, likely state sponsored.
TR
I concur.
On a related note, Israel has tightened and adjusted/added procedures for any aircraft nearing Israeli airspace. The authorities here are taking the threat very seriously.
H
ghp95134
03-17-2014, 17:00
Sorry:
I concur.
On a related note, Israel has tightened and adjusted/added procedures for any aircraft nearing Israeli airspace. The authorities here are taking the threat very seriously.
H
Don't all Aircraft entering our airspace have a specific code emitted from their transponder. No ID no entry into our airspace?
I'm sure our radar net is working overtime also. One of the most bizarre events I ever been alive for.
I think this plane is parked in a hanger somewhere, for sure, maybe even getting a serious paint job while its being repurposed.
If this plane crashed, or was driven, into the water I would believe we would have found the wreckage by now or at least a debris field. Either by sight (sat, boat, plane) or a submarine may have heard it. Even if we couldn't say we heard it, I would imagine we would have at least narrowed the search area in a discrete manner. Something that big hitting the water must be pretty loud and I would think a submarine would have heard it even an ocean away.
Don't all Aircraft entering our airspace have a specific code emitted from their transponder. No ID no entry into our airspace?
I'm sure our radar net is working overtime also. One of the most bizarre events I ever been alive for.
That probably depends on the country; not all have the same quality/quantity (coverage) as we do.
What's interested me most is that the captain built he own simulator of the 777. Most of us sim guys prefer fighter sims because they are more fun. What's fun about driving a bus? It's possible that he was practicing low level, even NOE, flying in heavy metal. Not sure what percentage of aviation radar would detect that. Do all the possible target countries have effective AD radar?
I've been thinking that the fact that he was such an ardent supporter of the opposition leader may make Malaysia a target, as well. Just some outside-the-box rambling. ;)
Pat
The Reaper
03-17-2014, 18:15
Primary users:
All Nippon
American
Emirates
United Airlines
Air France
Singapore Airlines
The largest operator by far is Emirates Airlines.
Interesting.
TR
Peregrino
03-17-2014, 18:52
Just for the fun of it, here's the latest rumor: Subject: It seems that the USA knows more about the missing flight MH370 than they are admitting to | Uprootedpalestinians's Blog
http://uprootedpalestinians.wordpress.com/2014/03/16/it-seems-that-the-usa-knows-more-about-the-missing-flight-mh370-than-they-are-admitting-to/
While this speculation is plausible, given some of the information about the fly-by-wire cockpit is correct - consider the source. Official (sanctioned) Russian news outlets. Just remember - Pravda and Izvestia. In Pravda there is no news, in Izvestia there is no truth.
The annoying thing; it's distracting from real issues. Hours of prime time coverage containing wild speculation for a missing airliner with 239 people on board vs. Russian intervention in Ukraine and Crimea with true global implications. Huge distraction to Russia's benefit. And they haven't had to do anything to capitalize on it.
Just for the fun of it, here's the latest rumor: Subject: It seems that the USA knows more about the missing flight MH370 than they are admitting to | Uprootedpalestinians's Blog
http://uprootedpalestinians.wordpress.com/2014/03/16/it-seems-that-the-usa-knows-more-about-the-missing-flight-mh370-than-they-are-admitting-to/
While this speculation is plausible, given some of the information about the fly-by-wire cockpit is correct - consider the source. Official (sanctioned) Russian news outlets. Just remember - Pravda and Izvestia. In Pravda there is no news, in Izvestia there is no truth.
The annoying thing; it's distracting from real issues. Hours of prime time coverage containing wild speculation for a missing airliner with 239 people on board vs. Russian intervention in Ukraine and Crimea with true global implications. Huge distraction to Russia's benefit. And they haven't had to do anything to capitalize on it.
Yes the US should know more, you would think and hope so!?!
Malaysia Airlines Expands Investigation To Include General Scope Of Space, Time
http://www.theonion.com/articles/malaysian-airlines-expands-investigation-to-includ,35524/
There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area which we call the Twilight Zone.
:D
spherojon
03-19-2014, 16:02
My money is on Hezbollah. But you QPs are the experts.
dollarbill
03-19-2014, 17:28
Several reports have stated the 777 was taken to 45,000 feet killing the passengers quickly. Curious to see if the flight simulator confirms that. If so, how long was this plan in the making? Was it a "lone wolf" situation? If not, it's hard to believe that there wasn't any chatter pick up.
Several reports have stated the 777 was taken to 45,000 feet killing the passengers quickly.
It doesn't work that way. Whatever cabin pressure differential that was dialed into the system would be maintained. Thirty-five thousand is just as deadly as 45,000' if they dumped the preasure. But then you'd have all those pesky O2 masks hanging all over the cabin. The altitude change could have been from a struggle for control of the aircraft. But how did they know about the altitude change if it occurred after the transponder was deactivated. :confused:
Pat
The altitude change could have been from a struggle for control of the aircraft. But how did they know about the altitude change if it occurred after the transponder was deactivated. :confused:
Pat
Story below could be how "they" discern various altitude modifications or could just be more wild speculation.
This is certainly one of the more bizarre passenger jet disappearances in recent memory.
Satellite Data Reveal Route of Missing Malaysia Airlines Plane
Jetliner 'Pinged' Satellites With Location, Altitude for Hours After Disappearance
By JON OSTROWER, ANDY PASZTOR and JULIAN E. BARNES
Updated March 14, 2014 5:57 a.m. ET
WSJ - WORLD NEWS
Malaysia Airlines ' missing jet transmitted its location repeatedly to satellites over the course of five hours after it disappeared from radar, people briefed on the matter said, as searchers zeroed in on new target areas hundreds of miles west of the plane's original course.
The satellites also received speed and altitude information about the plane from its intermittent "pings," the people said.
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304185104579437573396580350
<snip>
dollarbill
03-19-2014, 18:34
It doesn't work that way. Whatever cabin pressure differential that was dialed into the system would be maintained. Thirty-five thousand is just as deadly as 45,000' if they dumped the preasure. But then you'd have all those pesky O2 masks hanging all over the cabin. The altitude change could have been from a struggle for control of the aircraft. But how did they know about the altitude change if it occurred after the transponder was deactivated. :confused:
Pat
School time. With the O2 mask, can the O2 be turned off from the cockpit or is that shut off located somewhere else. Just wondering if someone took over the plane, could they turn off the O2 to certain parts of the plane, dawn a mask then fly to a deadly elevation. Or, would that have to be done pre-flight.
The satellites also received speed and altitude information about the plane from its intermittent "pings," the people said.
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304185104579437573396580350
<snip>
The engine self-notification system is new to me. How long is a "ping" if it reported a rapid climb to 45,000' and decent to the low/mid 20s. That would take a long ping.
School time. With the O2 mask, can the O2 be turned off from the cabin or is that shut off located somewhere else. Just wondering if someone took over the plane, could they turn off the O2 to certain parts of the plane, dawn a mask then fly to a deadly elevation. Or, would that have to be done pre-flight.
I don't know. My initial thought was, "No", because I don't remember it from all the ground school classes, but the need to turn it off if there was a cabin fire made me re-think it. We have current and recent ATPs here who may be able to answer if they are monitoring this thread. I can't remember if the masks are "free flow" or "on demand" either. AmbushMaster, got an answer to this one?
Still, why go the 45,000' when 35,000' would be just as effective?
Pat
For the curious or insomniacs. It seems like engineers could glean some useful stuff from this type of data - particularly the unusual engine conditions and final report.
From the RR site.
"Rolls Royce uses Engine Health Management (EHM) to track the health of thousands of engines operating worldwide, using onboard sensors and live satellite feeds."
"Most modern large civil aircraft use an Aircraft Condition Monitoring System (ACMS) to acquire the data for EHM. This captures three types of reports:
The first are snapshots, where the sensor data listed above is captured and collected into a small report. This is carried out during take-off, during climb and once the aircraft is in cruise.
The second type is triggered by unusual engine conditions. Examples might be if an engine exceeded its TGT (Turbine Gas Temperature) limits during a take-off. These reports contain a short time-history of key parameters to enable rapid and effective trouble-shooting of the problem.
The final type is a summary, which is produced at the end of the flight. This captures information such as maximum conditions experienced during the flight, and power reductions selected during take-off and climb."
http://www.rolls-royce.com/about/technology/systems_tech/monitoring_systems.jsp
<snip>
mdpatterson
03-19-2014, 21:23
I don't know. My initial thought was, "No", because I don't remember it from all the ground school classes, but the need to turn it off if there was a cabin fire made me re-think it. We have current and recent ATPs here who may be able to answer if they are monitoring this thread. I can't remember if the masks are "free flow" or "on demand" either. AmbushMaster, got an answer to this one?
Still, why go the 45,000' when 35,000' would be just as effective?
Pat[/QUOTE]
Simple answer yes. Various ways to take oxygen away from the cabin. Easy to disable the masks from dropping at all (Feature installed for MX purposes). Not even going to speculate on what happened here, but it would be no problem for the pilots to don and use oxygen masks while providing none to the cabin. No clue why FL450 as opposed to FL350 other than the effects would be a little quicker.......some people can last longer than expected at FL350.
Mike
Simple answer yes. Various ways to take oxygen away from the cabin. Easy to disable the masks from dropping at all (Feature installed for MX purposes). Not even going to speculate on what happened here, but it would be no problem for the pilots to don and use oxygen masks while providing none to the cabin. No clue why FL450 as opposed to FL350 other than the effects would be a little quicker.......some people can last longer than expected at FL350.
Mike
Thanks. I knew that MX could disable the system on the ground but do they do it from the cockpit or down near the O2 bottles? I was assuming that the squat switches would disable that override for flight to prevent sabotage.
Pat
dollarbill
03-20-2014, 01:15
Thanks. I knew that MX could disable the system on the ground but do they do it from the cockpit or down near the O2 bottles? I was assuming that the squat switches would disable that override for flight to prevent sabotage.
Pat
That's what I was wondering. It makes sense for the pilot to be able to turn off the O2 in the event of a fire. However, you would think the entire system would be shut down leaving the pilot without oxygen. If it needed to be turned off say in the cargo hull, that would indicate ground crew involvement. If the O2 was turned off anywhere but the cockpit, would it show up on a pre-flight inspection?
ECUPirate09
03-20-2014, 06:55
But this guy has a pretty simple theory about the whole thing:
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/
I'd be curious what others think about it.
But this guy has a pretty simple theory about the whole thing:
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/
I'd be curious what others think about it.
Yeah I saw that too. He makes a pretty compelling case. Occam's Razor votes in his favor. Talked to a neighbor at the cigar lounge last night. The tire fire/electrical fire scenario is credible in his estimation (captains a 747) as is pulling the breakers, the altitude change to starve a fire, and the course change.
The 777 has had an instrument fire in the past, albeit on the ground.
He said if it was a tire fire they'd be dead tout de suite.
YM Cating
03-21-2014, 11:23
So here's something interesting I found. 20 of the flights passengers were employees of Freescale Semiconductor. A company that, 5 days prior, released new electronic warfare tech for military radar systems. This is a U.S. based company, however the employees on the flight were Malaysian as well as Chinese nationals. "Freescale’s spokesman Mitch Haws has said: 'These were all people with a lot of experience and technical background and they were very important people.'" Now what that actually means in regards to the radar tech that was released, I have no idea. This was written in such a way that makes it unclear as to whether or not these people even know what radar is. They could work in a completely different section of the company on software development, or any number of things this company develops.
Despite whether or not it has anything to do with it and for hypothetical purposes. I'd like to hear from some of the professionals out there. If you were a group that wanted to harm a nation that contracted with Freescale, would you hijack a plane to obtain what could be a pretty high value target? I would assume this would be taken into account when determining a threat assessment, or would it be viewed as coincidental?
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/465557/Malaysian-plane-20-on-board-worked-for-ELECTRONIC-WARFARE-and-radar-defence-company
I look forward to the responses
All the best gentlemen,
Paul Cating
EDIT: I've discovered further information on the employees. According to Freescale they were in Tianjin and Kuala Lumpur upgrading facilities to improve their chip manufacturing efficiency. Apparently these factories work on chips for automobiles, telecom, consumer products, and industrial equipment. Seems like bad luck is the culprit.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/09/us-malaysia-airlines-freescale-idUSBREA280T020140309
If you were a group that wanted to harm a nation that contracted with Freescale, would you hijack a plane to obtain what could be a pretty high value target? I would assume this would be taken into account when determining a threat assessment, or would it be viewed as coincidental?
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/465557/Malaysian-plane-20-on-board-worked-for-ELECTRONIC-WARFARE-and-radar-defence-company
I look forward to the responses
All the best gentlemen,
Paul Cating
Freescale's FB page would lead you to think they write code for small chips, mainly in the auto industry.
https://www.facebook.com/freescale/info
Their radar product(s) look to be auto industry concentric and deal with vehicle steering and collision avoidance.
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/application.jsp?code=APLADDRAS
BUT,, They may have military products.. If you can do car chips you can do chips for anything.
Points:
1)If you are in the military industrial business you do not put all your top EGGS on the same plane, BAD JuJu
2)If you are a WESTERN company in the military industrial business you do not hire Chinese nationals to do sensitive product coding, BAD JuJu
I think your assumptions & questions are very low on the probability scale.
If you spent 10 minutes doing due diligence you may come to the same conclusion.
dollarbill
03-21-2014, 15:37
Heard an interesting out take on this today. Evidence surfacing that pilot was active in a radical Muslim movement. Possible he did steal the plane and there's a fear it my resurface on Bin Laden's death anniversary date, which is coming up.
Ambush Master
03-21-2014, 16:32
School time. With the O2 mask, can the O2 be turned off from the cockpit or is that shut off located somewhere else. Just wondering if someone took over the plane, could they turn off the O2 to certain parts of the plane, dawn a mask then fly to a deadly elevation. Or, would that have to be done pre-flight.
The Pax O2 comes from Chemical Oxygen Generators. That is why during the Mask Demo they tell you to extend the Mask to the full length of the hose. What this does is cause a cord to pull the pin that releases a striker and it hits a primer that ignites the "Candle" in the generator.
They can also just slowly dial the cabin to altitude gradually and accomplish 2 things: The Pax and Cabin Staff would not notice the effects of the hypoxia and the Masks are deployed when there is a "Rapid" drop in pressure. I think the Disable switch is controlled by at least one "Squat Switch" meaning that it only works on the ground.
I've got over 40 years of Airline Maintenance and Tech-Services.
Utah Bob
03-21-2014, 16:32
It crashed.
They`re dead.
The Pax O2 comes from Chemical Oxygen Generators
How did I forget that?! That's what brought down ValuJet 592 in Florida. Thanks, AM.
Pat
mdpatterson
03-21-2014, 21:31
"They can also just slowly dial the cabin to altitude gradually and accomplish 2 things: The Pax and Cabin Staff would not notice the effects of the hypoxia and the Masks are deployed when there is a "Rapid" drop in pressure. I think the Disable switch is controlled by at least one "Squat Switch" meaning that it only works on the ground."
Didn't want to speculate in the event this turns out to be a real accident, but increasing the cabin altitude gradually would do the trick in every aircraft I have flown (I haven't flown a 777 or studied the systems). If indeed this turns out to be something other than an accident, I know that the squat switch's on most aircraft can be "Tricked" to make the system think the wheels were on the ground by anyone with access and a little experience. This would of course not be an approved procedure and would indicate sabotage. Hope they find the truth soon either way.
Mike
dollarbill
03-21-2014, 21:42
The Pax O2 comes from Chemical Oxygen Generators. That is why during the Mask Demo they tell you to extend the Mask to the full length of the hose. What this does is cause a cord to pull the pin that releases a striker and it hits a primer that ignites the "Candle" in the generator.
They can also just slowly dial the cabin to altitude gradually and accomplish 2 things: The Pax and Cabin Staff would not notice the effects of the hypoxia and the Masks are deployed when there is a "Rapid" drop in pressure. I think the Disable switch is controlled by at least one "Squat Switch" meaning that it only works on the ground.
I've got over 40 years of Airline Maintenance and Tech-Services.
Thanks for the knowledge, feel a little :lifter now. Like everyone else, building my own hypothesis. Thanks again.
The Reaper
03-22-2014, 18:29
Not only that, the U.S. will promise you things, like an air defense system, and then take them back when Putin objects.
TR
PokemonMaster
04-01-2014, 11:44
Neat.
tiborbierbaum
04-08-2014, 16:21
This is somewhat lengthy take on the Flight 370, so, please stay with me.
“Shell game at International level; Now you see it, Now you don’t.”
Flight 370 is a big shell game, and it has attracted enormous interest for obvious reasons. But, I do remember history. I was an eye-witness to what I am about to tell you My purpose is to give you food for thought. “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” (George Santayana, philosopher)
History does teach us lessons. Remember 1956? If you ask any Hungarian, immediately the answer would be “the Revolution against the Soviet Tyranny.” But very few of us remember the other major event, the event that distracted the world’s attention away from that bloody struggle for freedom, and permitted the Soviet Union to invade Hungry on 4 November 1956 (the second time since the end of the WWII) while the United Nations wrung their hands and made excuses for their inaction.
The other major event was the Second Arab-Israeli War. Israel lit the fuse on 29 October 1956, to that armed conflict for self defense. The Soviet Union armed Egypt to the teeth, making it a danger to Israel’s self determination and preservation as a country. At the same time, the Soviets sat on the side-lines, running interference at the U.N. but keeping their military intact for the invasion of Hungary. The Western Powers could not agree on a single objective as their interest was fragmented. What a great “fortune” for the Soviet Union, or was it a lucky draw?
Keep your eyes on the “shells.” I am now shifting to current events. Do you know what the “beef” in Ukraine is that is worth shedding blood over? It is freedom from the Communist Party dictator that is a puppet of the Russian Republic. The Ukrainians decided to follow their 1991 Constitution of Commonwealth of Independent State. I am lumping Crimean issues with the Ukrainian’s. The umbilical cord leading to Putin and Crimea is only a springboard for further action. Putin (you notice that I did not use his title, since any title is earned through respect) is well aware of history. Putin is the product of the former Soviet Union. Under Stalin, millions of local families were forcibly removed from the Balkan States, Ukraine, and Belarus, and they were replaced with Russian nationals. Putin, being a trained KGB agent in Uncle Sam’s costume, made good use of his tool of “divide and conquer.” Putin must make his initial move against the Ukrainians as other States of his new federation would most certainly follow the Ukrainians. What would Uncle Joe (Josef Stalin) say, if under his watch the new Federation falls apart? It was a great disgrace that the Soviet Union imploded. It is unthinkable to Putin that his new federation could fall apart. You got the picture? Remember! Now let’s connect the dots.
In 1956, the Soviet Union moved 10 divisions into Hungary to crush the revolt. The Soviet Party leadership did not trust their soldiers and their officers with this mission. When they arrived in Budapest, the Hungarians had to tell them that the River Duna was not the Suez Canal, even though their guns were pointed at the Hungarian Parliament. When Putin sent his military into Ukraine through Crimea, they removed all identification from their uniforms. This was only a secondary ruse. There had to be a much larger distraction, so the world’s attention would be captured by a more tragic event. Flight 370 serves that purpose. The shell game begins.
The tragedy of Flight 370 had to be planned much ahead of its actual occurrence, just like the population transfers of the Soviet Union in the 1950s did not take place overnight. In 1956, the freedom fighters of Budapest never got their time on the UN stage. Now our military’s eyes and ears are scanning the void of the Indian Ocean while the “red machine” rolls over those who yearn for freedom. So, you want to know the whereabouts of Flight 370? Did we lose track of the shifting shells in this International shell game? I wish I knew. But I do not think it is where we are looking, or what we are aware of that we are looking. Why was the Boeing 777 selected to be the “sacrificial lamb”? It is a very large aircraft and it comes in different configurations (700-200 to 777-8X). Which model is the one missing? With 31000 gallons of fuel it has a range of 5240+ nautical miles at a speed of .84 Mach. It is capable of carrying many things. This one was also in an area of the world where security is relaxed, so it was easy picking. It serves mostly people in a country where individual worth is very cheap and their voice is muzzled. And mostly, it avoids touching the American nerve.
Now the question is; WHO are the participants? Dictators like Putin, do not do the dirty work themselves. A person like him always finds those who can be bribed, threatened or bought. I am suspicious of Malaysia for appearing not to be very active in shedding light on this tragedy, to bring it to a conclusion in a timely matter. The longer the “shell game” goes on, the harder it is to select what is under the shell. Certainly, Pakistan has also caught my attention for its silence. Pakistan has a big score to settle with the U.S.A. From under their nose, in their backyard, the U.S. military was able to bring Bin Laden to “justice.” To have a plane delivered to them intact, like the Boeing 777, could be the jewel under the shell. I do not buy that the transponder accidently stopped working after Flight 370 made the sharp left turn, leaving a data-print pointing to the void of the Indian Ocean, away from Pakistan. This turn had to be a ruse to throw everyone off the real trail. You may ask; “How about Iran?” My opinion is that so many Israeli eyes are focused on Iran, that they cannot even pass gas without the Israelis knowing about it. Are you with me? Remember!
Now, the hardest question is: Why? For what reason was this “shell game” put into motion? There are a number of participants, and each has to have a “dog in the fight.” The biggest interest, with the deepest pocket, and the one to gain the most from this has to be Putin. If he succeeds, he will not only stop the movement to freedom within the Federation, but he can reverse the course of Russian history through expansional movements, where his predecessors eventually failed. The second participant, I think is Pakistan. Their desired outcome I mentioned earlier. “Blood is thicker than water.” In a country, where blood feuds are imbedded into the culture, revenge distorts justice. The Boeing 777 is a desirable method to deliver a big “punch” against any advisory of theirs, and they seem to present the most potential danger to the U.S.A. at this time. Malaysia has the “smallest dog” in the fight. Their heated domestic fights for power makes them an easy target for bribes.
Now you are probably thinking that I did not tell you where Flight 370 is. I do not need to do so, as long as you remember history and the “quite warriors” who keep US protected and free. Through their dedication and sacrifice, they keep their eyes on the “shell.” In due time, we will know where Flight 370’s final resting place is. They are not distracted in this “game” and neither should we. I trust that with our military capabilities and with God’s help we will win this battle too. We must not abandon our faith, but cling to the motto of our forefathers: “In God we trust.” Keep remembering!
If I am wrong in my way of thinking, I thank God! If I am right on this one, may God help us all.
God bless America.
Tibor
In the 24 hour news cycle Flight 370 is sooooo last month's news.
Today everyone will be wondering just why is Gov Walker going back to college to finish his degree.
tiborbierbaum
04-17-2014, 15:17
May be, but I do not think so. It is too easy. It is very obvious. The bait is still out there and we are swimming in the dark. With all our technology, there should be some sign, unless it needs not to revealed bc it leads where we do not want to go.
Put your thinking hat on. Not the pilot, but the perpetrator, how would you get a Boeing 777 intact?
My question is why would a nation not a small group want to go to the work of faking a crash all the media attention etc?
When if it was to be used for a plot, why not just give them a plane from the airport, change the tail numbers reprogram transponders etc. or just allow them to load or pass security the day of your attack?
I just don't see the advantage in stealing the plane if we are talking about actors as large as Iran, Russia, Pakistan etc, who if they wanted to could facilitate the use of a commercial airplane and still maintain plausible deniability. As much as seems to be required anyway. Remember the majority of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi but I don't remember us dropping any bombs there.
Now if we are talking about a smaller terrorist organization without the backing of a state then OK makes more sense. Although I would think (just guessing) you aren't going to be able to just load this plane up with bombs/porno/whatever and take off towards a target without setting off a few alerts. I would hope developed nations have better early warning protocols then to just let an unidentified plane the size of a 777 fly into your airspace.
I don't know what I don't know maybe someone can clue me in.
I don't know what I don't know maybe someone can clue me in.
If we were to clue you in, then we would be cluing in a lot of other folks who don't have a clue...yet. ;)
Pat
tiborbierbaum
04-19-2014, 10:54
I have replied to PSM and FNG13, but during the Posting, my reply went to "cyberspace." Here I go again. If you come across my earlier reply, sorry about that.
FNG13 is asking very good questions in his message of "WHY", and I trust that I am helping PSM a bit. So here is my take on Why.
Why not just take an airliner out of service, repaint it, and not to go through all the intrigues? I can think of number of reasons. That part of the region, it is customary to conduct a war by using Proxy. The more the players, the risk is also subdivided. We have difficulty, as a country, do deal with wars of proxy. Some of the hurdles are; deniability, decentralization, way of life, "king pin" obscurity to mention some. Plain in service is traceable. Repainting would not make it disappear. You can tell how the ML 370 is almost disappeared fro the front pages of our newspapers. Here, only a small column pupped up on page 8th. This reflects our political will to fined the Boeing 777. After all, only three American was onboard. I do not thing that it was also by accident. It can be predictable, the country with the most sophisticated capability to locate ML 370 is loosing interest in the entire matter, Than may not. #1: With the NSA, by now we should have been able to "scrub" clean some usable information about ML 370 and the perpetrator. Or we did, but only on the need to know basis. Our buoy, and satellites coverage should also provide some direction to fined the needle in the Ocean. After all, we can detect the mist sophisticated cubs and trace their movements. #2: For the 9/11s the only tool was available the hijacking and using the airliner as a bomb, which was enough to do the intended damage. At that time we could not think of such an act. Boeing 777 can carry a cargo (which may be available to our adversaries) and has the range to do even more damage that which is not imaginable to most of us. How about WHY? #3 How? You remember about how we planed to infiltrate our biggest adversary to conduct UW operations? If your imagination is not "cooking" just talk to some of the old-timers. Remember the flight simulator in the pilot's home? It has been in our hands for some time. It may holds some key information in due time. #4: We cannot think with our American grain. We need to put on the "thinking hat" of our adversaries. Very basic, commonsense approach to the process. Some of the most successful Teams in Afghanistan were able to make that change.
I took up a lot of your time. Most of all, you must know that I do not know anything more than you do. It is just how you put together the puzzle that counts. It is my hope and prayer this Easter Sunday that they fined ML 370 in the dept. of the ocean.
tiborbierbaum
04-19-2014, 18:54
Very interesting Brother. If ML 370 intended to be crashed at see, why the ELTs (al of them) failed. Nice peace of the puzzle.
dollarbill
04-20-2014, 12:06
Very interesting Brother. If ML 370 intended to be crashed at see, why the ELTs (al of them) failed. Nice peace of the puzzle.
Good points you have made. Just hope my biggest fear doesn't come true. It being used as a bomb against Israel this Easter.
Ambush Master
04-20-2014, 13:00
Very interesting Brother. If ML 370 intended to be crashed at see, why the ELTs (al of them) failed. Nice peace of the puzzle.
ELTs don't work under water!! They're only good if on dry ground.
Here in the Southern Hemisphere (Aus/NZ) mostly all we are told is that they are unlikely to even recover the black box due to it probably (they seem to have isolated the spot the box likely is) being several thousand feet down and they are unable or don't have the equipment to go down that far.
I think for sure it's gone down and their chance to recover was lost in the first week due to the Malaysian government incompetence.
Here in the Southern Hemisphere (Aus/NZ) mostly all we are told is that they are unlikely to even recover the black box due to it probably (they seem to have isolated the spot the box likely is) being several thousand feet down and they are unable or don't have the equipment to go down that far.
I think for sure it's gone down and their chance to recover was lost in the first week due to the Malaysian government incompetence.
Saffie Flight 295 went down in the Indian Ocean way back in 1987(W/NW of suspected MH370 crash loc) and its flight recorders were recovered more than 3 miles deep.
tiborbierbaum
04-20-2014, 22:04
Forgive me for not individually respond to you, but my reply related to one another, so take a look at this as a package.
Ambush Master revealed that the ELT do not function under water. My question is: Is it activated only by an emergency situation? If so, it would not present a treat to the perpetrator if ML 370 was landed intact. Good point.
Jim 72 and Flaggthinks that no recovery is possible due to the depth of water. A reminder, in 1987, a recovery was successful from 3 miles deep. In 2012, James Careron made a successful dive to 7 miles (35+ thou. feet) in Mermaid Sapphire into the Mariana Trench. At this time, we are not interested (although would be nice) to recover anything. Just locate the debris. Remember, that is the way the Titanic was discovered.
My Team Sergeant Stu asked me a long time ago: How you climb/ski any mountain (we were in the 10thSFG)? The answer; One step/turn at a time. He also asked me: Tibor, how you eat an elephant? All I could think of, the big beast. The answer: one bite at a time. I still remember that.
What is puzzling to me is that nothing was reported about the different models of Boeing 777, and never (to my knowledge) stated which model was used for ML 370. B/C there are 6 models in service. They range from: 545 to 766+ thou lb TOW; Range from 6+ to 10+ thou miles; Take off : 8-11 thou feet; Speed: 0.84 Mach Range is not a factor, as a fuel bladder can be installed by an 8th grader. Good info, lots of food for thought here. Drive on!
c'mon guys, It's in Paki, China or elsewhere getting a new paint job...:eek:
tiborbierbaum
04-21-2014, 13:25
Oh, c'mon glebo. "China or elsewhere " leaving a lots of territory. Like the entire world. You can do better. lol:)
Oh, c'mon glebo. "China or elsewhere " leaving a lots of territory. Like the entire world. You can do better. lol:)
well, no one else knows WTF is going on...so that's as good as any... :D
Oldrotorhead
04-21-2014, 15:40
I feel sorry for the guy that told his wife he was going to China on that flight and now can never leave his girl friend's apartment.:D
Looks as if they may be on the trail to uncovering the mystery of MH370.
http://news.yahoo.com/us-official-plane-debris-indian-ocean-same-type-075652727--finance.html#
Richard
Complicated - but if it is from the missing plane it's a pretty good bet on how long it's been in the water.
Reunion is not that big but it would be worth it to do a closer search along it's eastern shore.
And along land areas to the west.
And now a suitcase
Luggage has washed up on island where possible debris from missing Flight MH370 was found
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/luggage-has-washed-up-on-island-where-possible-mh370-debris-was-found-2015-7#ixzz3hOkptImU
"In yet another sign we're getting closer to figuring out what happened to missing Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370, battered luggage has washed up on an island near where plane debris was found this week..."