Seeking advice on family matter...

[Damocles]

If this post is in any way inappropriate, I apologize. I am submitting it here because of this forum's expertise, experience and forethought. If I am barking up the wrong tree, I understand, and apologize.

Some of you may read this post and think I'm an idiot. Maybe I am. Maybe I need someone to tell me I'm an idiot. That's why I'm here. Read on, and you'll understand why.

My great aunt (referred to hereafter as Beverly) is in very poor health. She's in her late 80s and probably doesn't have much time left, she is also battling alzheimer's. Her husband (Paul, for the sake of this discussion) is a retired minister and is in fairly poor health as well. Their adopted son (let's call him Tim, adopted at 3 weeks of age) has been living with them for (more or less) his entire life (he is mid 50s now). He is a convicted felon (drug charges, years ago), and has literally stolen thousands of dollars in various ways from them for decades. He spends it on drugs and gambles it away, among other things we don't know about, I'm sure. They have also willingly given him thousands over the years because they love him, and because they have always hoped he would straighten up. In other words, they have enabled his less than desirable behavior for years. I had a verbal altercation with him in the recent past, while helping Paul and Beverly move some old furniture out of their house to be donated to a church halfway house. It nearly got physical, but I extricated myself from the situation before that happened. Tim kept yelling that I was "trying to break up their family." He has emotionally abused them for years and can manipulate them easily. They are his sole source of income (their social security and retirement payments, as well as donations from church members that continue to this day - all that Paul and Beverly either willingly give to Tim, or that he steals).

Paul and Beverly have recently had some very serious health issues. The instance has finally convinced Paul that he and Beverly need to live in an assisted living facility. Luckily, their other (more upstanding) son, lets call him Eric, manages one such place. They are there now. Tim is still living in their old house, which, because of their money situation (ie, giving it all to Tim or him stealing it) is being foreclosed on in the near future. All of their belongings are still in it. Paul and Beverly left thinking they would be back, but with their health at this moment, that is not possible.

My grandmother (Beverly's sister) tried calling Tim to ask him if she could come and gather some of Paul and Beverly's things (clothes, legal papers, heirlooms that Tim hasn't sold yet, etc), and Tim told her he would not let her in the house. Paul has appealed to him, Tim is not responsive to letting ANYONE in the house to gather belongings, even Paul. I think he sees the situation as a threat to his easy way of life and he's doing everything he can to throw a wrench in the cogs. He refuses to acknowledge reality. No one wants a confrontation with Tim because everyone realizes that he's backed into a corner and is desperate and could do just about anything if provoked. We do not think he has possession of any firearms, but it is still a possibility. Paul will not press charges on his son, and will not try to have him evicted. Tim will be in the house until the bank takes possession of it.

Sorry for the long intro to the situation, but I thought a little background necessary. Here's where I need advice.

I suggested the possibility of orchestrating a situation in which we create a distraction to get Tim out of the house, and during his absence, myself and Paul's grandson (Dylan, for now), armed with a key and a letter of intent from Paul, enter the premises and gather those belongings Paul instructs us to - none of which Tim owns. This scenario has the possibility of going very wrong if we don't handle it correctly. If Tim returns to the house prematurely and finds us inside "stealing his things," he will almost certainly react in a violent manner.

You all may be reading this and thinking I'm a complete moron for even considering this course of action. Maybe that's true. But we're at the end of our rope here and I honestly am not sure if there are any other avenues to pursue. If anyone has suggestions, I would appreciate them greatly. What follows are my own thoughts about the logistics of this course of action, should we come to the conclusion that there is no other way. I have deemed the remaining possessions important enough to recover to warrant the aforementioned actions.

Greg (an acquaintance of Tim's, not sympathetic to Tim at all) owns an auto shop in the area, and may be able to get Tim out of the house by asking for his help with some odd job or other. From down the road, Dylan and I watch Tim leave the house and wait for the word from Greg. Greg contacts me when Tim arrives at Greg's shop. Dylan and I then enter the house using Paul's key, gather those belongings we're instructed to, and leave. If Tim leaves Greg's shop prematurely, Greg calls me to tell me so, and we take what we've got and bug out. We may also have someone available to tail Tim and observe Tim's vehicle at all times, just in case he turns around while en route to Greg's shop for some reason. The only other hiccup I can foresee at this time would be if Tim randomly had someone else staying at the house with him. This is not something he has done before, and I think the possibility of this is very low. Knocking for several minutes prior to entering would all but ensure that there is no one else there.

If it comes to this course of action, I will be speaking to a lawyer to discern the exact legalities of what is being discussed. I know there are some lawyers on this forum that may be able to lend insight as well. If what I'm talking about is indeed legal, barring some other method of reclaiming the belongings we haven't thought of and pursued, then I believe we'll be trying this. Keep in mind, we do not have long (I do not yet know exactly how long) before the bank takes possession of the premises. Time is not our friend in terms of red tape and paperwork.

There it is. Sorry its so long, but the situation has deteriorated to the point that something just simply needs to be done. If any advice is given, I know it is not legal counsel and will hold no one but myself responsible for my actions.

Thank you in advance for reading through my long, ridiculous story, and for the advice, if any, that is given.

Flame away.

Regards.
D

[NurseTim]

Who has power of attorney? Would Paul give you poa? With poa, you could evict Tim. Why isn't brother taking Tim to task? Does brother have poa?

[MR2]

Barbarian thinks you should take up smoking. :rolleyes:

[Trapper John]

I would agree with NT and add that in addition to a POA it would be best that Paul have his will in order and the person with POA also be named as executor of Paul's estate. That party then should be legally empowered to act on Paul's behalf.

I'm no lawyer and one of our lawyers here should be able to advise you. It might not be a bad idea if you know the Sheriff to just give him a heads-up. This could get much uglier than it already is.

BTW, I think your plan really sucks and puts you in legal jeopardy. Don't mean to be so harsh and insensitive, but I don't think you were looking for touchy-feely advice anyway. :D

Bottom line- do nothing until you get legal counsel - and head the advice!

[VVVV]

Run don't walk to an attorney to have them declared incompetent. Have you or another family members appointed their legal guardians ( person & property).

[Damocles]

Who has power of attorney? Would Paul give you poa? With poa, you could evict Tim. Why isn't brother taking Tim to task? Does brother have poa?

Eric (brother) has recently been granted durable power of attorney. I have been told (by grandma) the eviction process would take too long. Apparently the shortest length an eviction notice can give a tenant to vacate is 30 days, and only under specific conditions - it is normally 60 days. I am told the bank will be taking possession prior to this time frame expiring. By the time Tim would have to be out of the residence, the bank would have already taken possession.

Eric has been somewhat estranged from his parents for some time due to their disagreements regarding Tim's behavior. Eric finally walked away some years ago after Paul and Beverly's inability to admit to themselves that Tim has been taking advantage of them. As the next closest responsible party, Eric has finally been granted POA, and is doing what he can. The law, however, requires its due process. I think its a matter of too little, too late. I'm here just trying to pick up whatever pieces are left so that my great aunt can live out her final days in relative peace and comfort, and with at least some possessions of sentimental value from her past. This is the most important thing to me.

[Damocles]

I honestly dont know the answers to some of the questions being asked, which is why I posted in the first place. I will be bringing these questions to the attention of others shortly.

Im sure the plan sucks, and I appreciate the evaluation. I hold the belief that a bad plan is better than no plan at all, however it will not be pursued if it violates the law in any way.

Advice need not be touchy feely. Thank you much.

[VVVV]

I honestly dont know the answers to some of the questions being asked, which is why I posted in the first place. I will be bringing these questions to the attention of others shortly.

Im sure the plan sucks, and I appreciate the evaluation. I hold the belief that a bad plan is better than no plan at all, however it will not be pursued if it violates the law in any way.

Advice need not be touchy feely. Thank you much.

Get your butt into an attorney's office....before it's too late!

[Damocles]

Get your butt into an attorney's office....before it's too late!

Roger that.

Thanks.

[Trapper John]

Echoing the advice of my Brother, WCH, with emphasis!

Whatever you do, do not set foot on the property at this point. You are correct, it may be too little, too late and sometimes we just have to deal with that reality. Sorry for what you are going through and admire your concern and efforts to do the right thing.

[NurseTim]

Have Eric go claim his father's property with the sheriff there as civil standby, if they have that in your state. Regardless, contact the sheriff's office find out what the real process is for eviction and claiming property.

This may just be your relatives karma to suffer through this, harsh as it may be. They are grown ups that did not protect themselves, this may just be their fate.

[Dusty]

This reminds me of the oldbullyoungbull story.

[Requiem]

Tim will be in the house until the bank takes possession of it.

At that point the bank will have the contents of the house removed by a moving company.

1. Talk to a lawyer and 2. Find out what the bank intends to do with the contents of the house.

Good luck.
Susan

[Damocles]

Have Eric go claim his father's property with the sheriff there as civil standby, if they have that in your state. Regardless, contact the sheriff's office find out what the real process is for eviction and claiming property.

This may just be your relatives karma to suffer through this, harsh as it may be. They are grown ups that did not protect themselves, this may just be their fate.

If I believed in karma I might agree with that, but thats not to say they haven't made their bed. I am not deterred, however, from trying to give them a pillow on which to lay their heads. I will continue until we get results or until time runs out.

I appreciate the advice. I'm meeting with an attorney who is an acquaintance of mine tomorrow morning, so hopefully I'll have some more solid answers on the subject soon.

On a side note, I am learning which members of my somewhat extended family are useless and which ones can be counted on for a relevant coherant thought, thats for sure. I have lost much respect for several of them thus far, just in the last few days. Definitely learning who can be counted on in a pinch.

[Damocles]

This reminds me of the oldbullyoungbull story.

Haha, thats an interesting and pretty accurate parallel, I think. Hey, there was a time not that long ago when I would have just run down the hill without a word. :rolleyes:

[Trapper John]

On a side note, I am learning which members of my somewhat extended family are useless and which ones can be counted on for a relevant coherant thought, thats for sure. I have lost much respect for several of them thus far, just in the last few days. Definitely learning who can be counted on in a pinch.

Unfortunately true, you can pick your friends, you can even pick your nose, but try as you will, you can't pick your family. :D

[miclo18d]

Have Eric go claim his father's property with the sheriff there as civil standby, if they have that in your state. Regardless, contact the sheriff's office find out what the real process is for eviction and claiming property.

This may just be your relatives karma to suffer through this, harsh as it may be. They are grown ups that did not protect themselves, this may just be their fate.This!

The person with POA calls the sheriff and meets them at the house and together they go inside and extract the needed paperwork. Simple. Easy. Legal. Douchebag stays nice for the deputy or he gets tazed and arrested. Having a lawyer involved and present also, is even better.

As others have said your plan sucks. It could make YOU the criminal for B&E.

[Damocles]

After meeting with an attorney this morning, I have learned that given the situation as it stands, we have three options left open to us.

Option A) Leave it be. The bank will take possession of the house and all contents. House and contents will be appraised and either sold, auctioned, donated or tossed. This would leave a chance for us to possibly recover some few possessions at auction, but no guarantee. Personally, I consider this option to be a no go unless all other attempts to recover the property fail. I'm stubborn that way I guess.

Option B) Obtain a court order for property recovery from the premises. We are looking into this now. I am concerned for the time frame required for this option, however given the alternatives, I consider this to be our best bet. Once a court order is obtained, LE would be present at time of recovery to control the situation.

Option C) Follow through with a form of the aforementioned plan. Both Paul and Eric (the owner of the home and the holder of POA) have stated they would be present at the time of recovery for reasons of legality. Paul would simply be enlisting help in his own removal of his property from his previous home and moving it to his new home. This news is an improvement over the original outline, but is still not ideal. There would be at least 4 individuals including myself present, and Tim would be otherwise occupied across town on the pretense of having Paul's car (of which Tim is in possession) serviced by a mechanic known to Tim, therefore Tim would be without immediate transportation. If at any time, during this course of events, there is any indication whatsoever of Tim's premature return to the house, we would simply leave and be gone before he could arrive. I have told all parties involved that the goal should be to avoid direct confrontation with Tim at all cost, even to the point of calling off the entire deal and simply going home, to which they have all agreed. We would then revert to the last resort, option A.

I hope we can get a court order in time. There aren't a LOT of moving parts in option C, but there is still plenty of room for things to not go as planned. We should know about the possibility of a court order soon.

[VVVV]

Since Beverly is "battling" Alzheimers you (family) should petition the courts to have her declared mentally incompetent, and appoint a legal guardian for her. This would end Tim's living off her money (SSI etc.) It also sounds like Paul is in the same boat. Your family should have done this long before now.


You don't win the battle with Altzheimers (dementia).

[Damocles]

Since Beverly is "battling" Alzheimers you (family) should petition the courts to have her declared mentally incompetent, and appoint a legal guardian for her. This would end Tim's living off her money (SSI etc.) It also sounds like Paul is in the same boat. Your family should have done this long before now.

You don't win the battle with Altzheimers (dementia).

I agree on all counts. Beverly will be signing neccessary paperwork in the next day or so. Bank accounts have been closed and reopened anew, giving Tim no access to future funds. At this point Tim is completely cut off, something that should have been done 3+ decades ago. All he has left is their car (not worth much cash, certainly worth more to Tim as a means of transportation) and whatever he has in the house at this point.

[Damocles]

Thought I'd post a final update for those who were part of the discussion.

Eric couldn't get a court order in time. I don't know the details, but apparently it wasn't thought to be enough of an emergency to warrant an expedited time frame.

A couple of days ago, Tim took the car into the Ford dealership on the recommendation of an employee there, who told him that Paul was thinking about continuing to pay for the insurance so that Tim would continue to be covered while he drove the vehicle, and as a result wanted a few things repaired to keep the car roadworthy. The same day, Eric asked me to help him move some of his parents' belongings from their previous residence to their new one. I obliged. We were also lent a hand by an off-duty Sheriff, who we had become acquainted with in the previous couple of days. It took us a couple of hours, which is weird, because it was almost the exact same length of time that it took Ford to work on the car. Happy coincidence, I guess. We got everything Paul and Beverly needed, most of what they wanted, and even a few comfort items they weren't expecting to see again in this life. After the 2.5 hours of working on the car, Paul got a call from Ford and was told that in the end, the car couldn't be repaired after all. As a result, Paul decided to cancel the insurance immediately, and then asked a friend of his who owns a wrecker to tow the car to a boys rehabilitation ranch not far away and leave it as a charitable donation. Last I heard, they're going to try their own hand at repairing it and selling it, to provide the ranch with some much needed operations funding.

I really appreciate everyone's thoughts and suggestions on the situation. Some of them provided us with avenues to pursue that we may not have otherwise known existed.

I'm really glad everything worked out. Paul and Beverly's new home is not luxurious, but it will provide them with the care they need going forward. I feel privileged to have been a part of helping with the transition, which really should have taken place around the time of my birth. Better late than never, though, I suppose.

Thanks again.

D

[NurseTim]

I'm glad there was a good outcome.:lifter

[Trapper John]

All's well that ends well. :) Good on you for stepping up and doing the right thing.

[miclo18d]

Good job, I'm glad for the positive outcome. Good to see you CYA!

[JHD]

Glad things worked out.