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ROTCNY
12-01-2004, 00:31
Regular lurker here hoping to clear something up.

I'm an Infantry branched Cadet slated for National Guard duty as a 2LT in a few months. I've heard from some friends that the 19th and 20th SFG's will take a new IN 2LT under their wings, send him to IOBC/Ranger School and then to an Infantry NG unit deploying overseas. After overseas duty is completed(successfully) they will send him to SFAS as a 1LT.

I've searched for information on this topic(Google, PS, SOCNet) and wasn't able to confirm or deny this rumor. The best info I've read stated the obvious, that all NGSF officer applicants had to be 1LTs, but there was no information stating whether an NGSF group would sponsor a new 2LT through IOBC/Ranger(i.e. schedule OBC/Ranger classes and pay for them).

I appreciate any input or advice.

James

Kyobanim
12-01-2004, 03:18
I doubt anything has changed in the last 20 years, they didn't do it then. Why would the Guard pay for a 2d LT to do all those things for another unit when they can just grab one 1st and start using him right off the bat?

Sounds like rumor but I'm sure someone will be along shortly to clarify.

ROTCNY
12-01-2004, 06:09
My friends and I talked about that and were told that some NGSF Battalions are having problems getting quality officers in the Guard to come over to tryout for SF. The ones that do request to join and go to SFAS usually are lacking credible Platoon Leader time, physical fitness and simply aren't making through selection. Many of the NGSF ODA's(along with Active SFGs too) lack officers is what we were told.

So this is where the rumor kicks in, some Commanders are interviewing newly commissioned NG 2LTs that have a high PT score, good recommendations, etc and guiding them along the right path so that by the time they do get to be a 1LT, they have experience and the right stuff to go on to selection.

But I'll stop talking about rumors now and wait for someone with actual facts to set me straight.

Thanks in advance,
James

The Reaper
12-01-2004, 07:23
Just a general observation, but while some of the best officer students I have ever seen are from the Guard Groups, they also seem to send a disporportionate percentage of less intelligent, less fit, poor creds, dubiously dedicated to SF, and frankly, just OLD officers to SFAS.

IMHO, the best way for the Guard to get good Detachment Officers would be to recruit them from separating SF CPTs as they leave AD.

Most 18A CPTs would kill to get another several years on an ODA.

YMMV.

TR

Shark Bait
12-01-2004, 08:11
ROTCNY, you are correct to view this with some scepticism. It sounds like rumor to me also. I suggest that you call some units and speak with the commanders, if possible. Some commanders will work with you more than others, too. One thing is for sure, you will have to impress the hell out of a commander to make him go to bat for you.

Achilles
12-01-2004, 08:26
Just a general observation, but while some of the best officer students I have ever seen are from the Guard Groups, they also seem to send a disporportionate percentage of less intelligent, less fit, poor creds, dubiously dedicated to SF, and frankly, just OLD officers to SFAS.

IMHO, the best way for the Guard to get good Detachment Officers would be to recruit them from separating SF CPTs as they leave AD.

Most 18A CPTs would kill to get another several years on an ODA.

YMMV.

TR

An SF Major I had lunch with a few weeks ago said that if he had an option to be honorably discharged after 5 more years on an ODA he would do it (and hes career moving to area commander). It's the reason I'm enlisting and not doing the ROTC program here.

daquat
12-05-2004, 09:39
Subjective: Question regarding NG Unit "sponsoring" a soldier from another unit.

Objective: See thread.

Assessment: In my limited experience, the SF company I am assigned to does not offer formal training opportunities (outside of "the pipeline") to those not assigned to the unit (eg. ODB soldiers) or non-SF qualified soldiers (the rest of us sluggos).

IMHO it makes little sense to send a soldier assigned/"owned" by another unit to training or overseas deployments; injuries happen, and a soldier's goals may change (especially after the joys of deployment and combat). It simply is not a good investment.

I cannot and will not speak for the commander's, Sergeant Major's, or "selection board" criteria. However, I know a *few* LT's have made it onto C 1/20's Training Team and into the pipeline. Keep in mind they "belong" to the SF company, and not another unit.

Plan: I suggest calling NG SF companies for the answer. The contact information is posted on this website. C 1/20 SFG (Springfield, MA) phone #'s is supposed to change in the coming week. You'll have to call Massachusetts NG HQ for the # at that point.

I hope this helped.

Basenshukai
12-05-2004, 10:39
There was a NG 2LT who went through the entire Q Course and graduated ... as a 2LT. I don't know what group he belonged to, but, he had zero PL time and zero "anything else" time. He was not prior service and was probably no more than 23 years old. This is not ancient history. I'm talking about within the last three years.

I didn't think it was a particularly good idea. Heck, when I was an engineer, you had to have previous PL experience, and hand-picked by the BC, just to take the specialty platoon (and that was just conventional Army stuff).

Eagle5US
12-05-2004, 10:43
Subjective: Question regarding NG Unit "sponsoring" a soldier from another unit.

Objective: See thread.

Assessment: In my limited experience, the SF company I am assigned to does not offer formal training opportunities (outside of "the pipeline") to those not assigned to the unit (eg. ODB soldiers) or non-SF qualified soldiers (the rest of us sluggos).

IMHO it makes little sense to send a soldier assigned/"owned" by another unit to training or overseas deployments; injuries happen, and a soldier's goals may change (especially after the joys of deployment and combat). It simply is not a good investment.

I cannot and will not speak for the commander's, Sergeant Major's, or "selection board" criteria. However, I know a *few* LT's have made it onto C 1/20's Training Team and into the pipeline. Keep in mind they "belong" to the SF company, and not another unit.

Plan: I suggest calling NG SF companies for the answer. The contact information is posted on this website. C 1/20 SFG (Springfield, MA) phone #'s is supposed to change in the coming week. You'll have to call Massachusetts NG HQ for the # at that point.

I hope this helped.

Nice try-but let's leave the SOAP format for what it is designed for - medical stuff.
And for future reference - the OBJECTIVE portion is your examination results, physical findings you can touch, measure, smell etc...
This entire thread would be considered the history. or SUBJECTIVE portion.

If you want to be more appropriate that cute, try the
Situation:
Observations:
Suggestion/ COA:
format

Eagle

daquat
12-05-2004, 15:03
Nice try-but let's leave the SOAP format for what it is designed for - medical stuff.
And for future reference - the OBJECTIVE portion is your examination results, physical findings you can touch, measure, smell etc...
This entire thread would be considered the history. or SUBJECTIVE portion.

If you want to be more appropriate that cute, try the
Situation:
Observations:
Suggestion/ COA:
format

Eagle

Noted. I'm here to learn.

Your suggestion is the one I initially was trying for. Thanks for the edification. (Sincerely)

ROTCNY
12-06-2004, 15:28
Actually, I wasn't talking about sponsoring a 2LT from another "unit". I was asking about 19th/20th SFG taking a new 2LT immediately after commissioning, sending him to IOBC/Ranger, then to a deploying NG Unit, then to selection. So technically the 2LT would be sponsored by the SFG and not assigned to any other unit initially.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I'll probably start making some calls after the New Year.

James

The Reaper
12-06-2004, 15:53
Actually, I wasn't talking about sponsoring a 2LT from another "unit". I was asking about 19th/20th SFG taking a new 2LT immediately after commissioning, sending him to IOBC/Ranger, then to a deploying NG Unit, then to selection. So technically the 2LT would be sponsored by the SFG and not assigned to any other unit initially.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I'll probably start making some calls after the New Year.

James

I'd say the odds of that are near zero.

Lots of people looking for a shortcut.

Do the time, earn the beret and tab the right way, like everyone else.

Good luck.

TR

ROTCNY
12-06-2004, 17:53
Sir,
I don't see it as a shortcut, the time lengths from commissioning to getting a chance at SFAS are similiar to an AD officer. The rumor we heard was the 2LT would be doing a one year deployment as a PL with a Regular Infantry NG Unit and this is only after successfully completing IOBC/Ranger. The timeline would look similiar to this:

IOBC - 3 Months
ABN/Ranger - 2.5 Months
Trainup with Deploying IN NG Unit - 3-6 Months
Deployment - One Year

Promotion to 1LT near end of deployment
Sent to SFAS after APPROX 2.5 Years in Service.


The AD Route according to https://www.perscomonline.army.mil/opsf/FRONotes.htm

Shows that a YG2001 Officer could attend SFAS at the earliest SEP04, which means at the MOST they only have 4-6 months more TIS than a NGLT following the route I outlined. Although I guess it can be argued that those extra months give an officer more time to develop as a Company level XO, etc.

Also, the NGLT route i'm defining is all contigent on successfully completing the overseas deployment(i.e. not screwing the pooch, getting people unneccessarily killed/wounded, doing something dumb), getting through Ranger school, etc.

And then, of course, even IF selected, the regular Officer SF pipeline is in effect, have to attend ICCC, SFQC, etc. It would be 5 years TIS minimum before getting an opportunity to command an ODA and i'm sure in that time if the NG officer was found lacking, the tough standards of SF would weed him out.

Respectfully,
James

The Reaper
12-06-2004, 18:34
James:

Both the AD and NG Special forces already have more applicants then they need. You have to be really good to come here.

The YG selection process is different for AD and NG officers.

What unit would sign on an LT for a year, knowing he was planning on packing up and moving on? I have 5 years as an Infantry officer, and 20 as an 18A. If I were a Company or Battalion CO and you told me what you were doing, I would send you packing, quickly. Do you think that the Guard Infantry units work for the SF Groups, or want to invest in a guy with a plan to use them as a stepping stone?

I will give you one thing. For someone who has not accomplished much so far in the military, you do have big plans.

Follow this advice, if you really want to be a good officer.

No one seems to have heard of your "rumor". Let your first military duty be as the Rumor Control Officer. Call Group or Battalion HQs, probably the recruiter or S-1, and if no one can confirm it, it is probably BS. Frankly, it sounded like it to me as well. Forget it.

Focus on the 25 meter target first. For you right now, that is being the very best Infantry LT that you can, doing well in IOBC, trying to get a slot to Ranger and Airborne and doing that well too.

Get school out of the way. Report in to your unit. Learn your job, and what you are expected to do. Maximize your strengths, but work hardest on your weaknesses. Get to know your men, their needs and concerns, and take them to war. Accomplish all assigned missions, and bring your people back alive, if humanly possible. Sacrifice your personal comfort and well being till your people are taken care of. Mission first, men always. Forget the career stuff till you get back.

Then apply for a slot at an SF unit. Don't be surprised if while drilling in the NQP platoon, you regularly get smoked at a variety of tasks by junior enlisted NQPs. Work on getting better, every day. Earn your shot at SFAS, and make it count. Do not come here without being prepared, or focused.

Don't be planning your route to General before ensuring your success as a platoon leader.

Good luck.

TR

ROTCNY
12-06-2004, 18:39
Sir,

Point Taken, Thanks for the advice and the kick in the butt. I've been lurking here long enough that I should have known by now that even if that rumor was true, its probably not the best way to do things.

Thanks,

James

CommoGeek
12-07-2004, 02:33
Sir, James,

One thing if I may:
A state will not be pleased to send a guy through IOBC, Ranger, and maybe Airborne only to lose them to SF. Should you fail SFAS expect to be PNG'ed from the state you left behind.

In short, join a state that has a SF unit. Interstate transfers occur, but the political price to be paid can be steep at times.

Good luck, James.