View Full Version : Pentagon Plans to Shrink Army to Pre-World War II Level
SFOC0173
02-24-2014, 05:37
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/24/us/politics/pentagon-plans-to-shrink-army-to-pre-world-war-ii-level.html
You knew This is going to happen after this post war in Afghanistan era. But pre WWII levels?
You can argue that you don't need many troops and special operations will leave the way, there will be more drones and all that is discussed. The reality is you still need Troops to occupy ground.
What a Draft Army? Think in the next Ten years the USA will have people signing up to go to war?
There will be a fight on the Hill over this.
My question would be where is all this money that we will be saving be diverted to? Our government never saves money they just move it around.
My question would be where is all this money that we will be saving be diverted to? Our government never saves money they just move it around.
Since Washington's budget is still going up like a rocket ship I would guess everything else is going up.
Oh, there is some nickle and dime stuff here and there - but more like a program has three departments each spending X dollars. Cut one department 3% and increase the other two 10%. Then they can claim - "Look! We did cut over in this program." But since that is based on base line budgeting the department that was "cut" still had it's spending increased. Only in Washington.
"Pentagon Plans to Shrink Army to Pre-World War II Level"
That won't embolden our enemies...
Well i guess the A10s are on the chopping block again. Good thing the F35 will be around to take up slack. Who needs that old, slow, ugly, dirty cheap A10 When you have a new shiny, expensive, fast fighter to play with.
I just love how all the politicians are up in arms already, not because it weakens our national defense but because their district will loose money.
Well i guess the A10s are on the chopping block again. Good thing the F35 will be around to take up slack. Who needs that old, slow, ugly, dirty cheap A10 When you have a new shiny, expensive, fast fighter to play with.
I just love how all the politicians are up in arms already, not because it weakens our national defense but because their district will loose money.
This dawned on me as I heard this on the radio this morning, and Max, you bring up an interesting point.
The story is, the pentagon will be shrinking mother Army down to pre-WW II levels, even though still in its infancy, how much did the Army Air Corps make up that pre WW-II number? It wasn't until '47 when they split off to become their own branch.
So even though the "numbers" say the Army is going to be a pre WW-II levels, how much of the lose will be on actual fighting units?
*Even though I bring up this scenario, I think idea SUCKS. As tonyz sarcasticly/jokeingly pointed out ... That won't embolden our enemies...
"In more recent budget and strategy documents, the military has been ordered to be prepared to decisively win one conflict while holding off an adversary’s aspirations in a second until sufficient forces could be mobilized and redeployed to win there."
Looks like we would be busy on the delaying front. Maybe they will be able to kick one of the 11 carriers to support us.
This dawned on me as I heard this on the radio this morning, and Max, you bring up an interesting point.
The story is, the pentagon will be shrinking mother Army down to pre-WW II levels, even though still in its infancy, how much did the Army Air Corps make up that pre WW-II number? It wasn't until '47 when they split off to become their own branch.
So even though the "numbers" say the Army is going to be a pre WW-II levels, how much of the lose will be on actual fighting units?
*Even though I bring up this scenario, I think idea SUCKS. As tonyz sarcasticly/jokeingly pointed out ... That won't embolden our enemies...
Come on, we won, you and Tony are being ridiculous. It's not like Iran or China are rattling sabers.
Come on, we won, you and Tony are being ridiculous. It's not like Iran or China are rattling sabers.
And Putin would never feel emboldened in proxy actions and that crazy boy leader of North Korea would never misread this...
They are both kind and gentle leaders who want nothing but peace, and harmony. It's the evil Americans who keep pushing hate and intolerance.
I'm practicing proper writing so my posts can get past the commisars that are coming. :D
Come on, we won, you and Tony are being ridiculous. It's not like Iran or China are rattling sabers.
But ... but ... but, as long as our Dear Leader keeps apologizing, everything should be okay, right ???
They are both kind and gentle leaders who want nothing but PIECE, and harmony. It's the evil Americans who keep pushing hate and intolerance.
Fixed it for ya. ;)
Like a Piece of Ukraine, and a piece of Israel ???
I'm practicing proper writing so my posts can get past the commisars that are coming. :D
I must say Sir, your righting has become much more goodly-er.:D
Javadrinker
02-24-2014, 09:35
I'm practicing proper writing so my posts can get past the commisars that are coming. :D
LOL .. ^5... good one..and points for cross-thread too
Finally got it....I stole this from someone on here :D
Team Sergeant
02-24-2014, 09:57
Social Programs
Since Washington's budget is still going up like a rocket ship I would guess everything else is going up.
Oh, there is some nickle and dime stuff here and there - but more like a program has three departments each spending X dollars. Cut one department 3% and increase the other two 10%. Then they can claim - "Look! We did cut over in this program." But since that is based on base line budgeting the department that was "cut" still had it's spending increased. Only in Washington.
Exactly.... entitlement folks need more money and with welfare tripling over the last six years they will soon run out of obamaphones, obamacare, and obamaDirectTV.
I'm practicing proper writing so my posts can get past the commisars that are coming. :D
It may be to late
Pericles
02-24-2014, 15:48
The title is a red herring as IIRC, 1940 strength was about 244,000 before the mobilization, and that included the Army Air Corps. Of course active duty strength never fell below 480,000 since 1940, so the headline is technically correct and misleading.
The title is a red herring as IIRC, 1940 strength was about 244,000 before the mobilization, and that included the Army Air Corps. Of course active duty strength never fell below 480,000 since 1940, so the headline is technically correct and misleading.
Well that makes me feel better. It's the lowest in 75 years instead of 76
If you were/are a leftist that would like to change that paradigm how would you do it?
A good start would be to spend a few years getting "your" people into key positions, while closing opportunities for your adversary to place his into any relevant position.
Are they really going to revert to pre WWII manning strengths? Or, is that just put out for shock value to let the pundits argue it out in public to give them time to see where they can move fast, and where they will need to employ more diversions.
The ultimate goal (IMHO) is to emplace those with a leftist ideology into key/ combat support roles. Manning and rapid mobilization of newly minted Combat troops can be accomplished through the Draft. And the Draft can be manipulated so that the right folks are being drafted.
By reconfiguring the Military, the Left and its fellow travelers can point to "Historic Levels of Military support" as cause to do any damn thing that they would like to do.
There is nothing slowing or stopping the Leftists agenda at present, they are governing as if there will never be a change of party again. Once the Mid-term elections are over, and the right gets defeated again, there will be a "popular" call to repeal the 22nd Amendment (limit on presidential terms). The Press will be for it. Fed, State and local Governments will be all for it. Teachers and Teacher Unions will be for it. Unions will advocate for it. Law Enforcement will applaud it. And the Military will fall into line. If the left is successful in stifling debate on Global Cooling/Warming/Change then they will be able to control all messaging.
It is impossible for change not to happen with all of the changes being made, (cultural, financial, political and legal). It is important that we look forward to see where the changes are leading so that we can best position ourselves and our loved ones to survive.
Tinfoil hat stuff?
I -temporarily- lost two very good friends over my candid predictions on the last Presidential election. So, Mark your calendar, next year at this time the 22nd Amendment will be on the front burner of National Discussions.
The Reaper
02-24-2014, 21:40
I don't see the popular support for Obama that he had the first time, and Hillary is not going to wait for Obama to get tired of being POTUS.
Not saying we will not have a Dim for POTUS next time, just I don't see it being a 22nd Amendment issue.
I don't think most military personnel are buying the BS either.
TR
I don't see the popular support for Obama that he had the first time, and Hillary is not going to wait for Obama to get tired of being POTUS.
Add Bill in there too.
2018commo
02-25-2014, 05:13
I received an OPORD yesterday which showed the proposed cuts post by post. What an act of lunacy, nothing but a shot over the bow of congress.
Why do they not have voluntary discharges at this point? I have met more than my fair share of soldiers that complain about being in and want to leave. Let all those types leave first. I don’t see the problem with that. Im stunned no one has figured that out yet. It may not be really large numbers, but at least it would help.
The Reaper
02-25-2014, 10:16
Looks like we are going to have to mobilize the Guard to come up with our next Task Force Smith. :rolleyes:
TR
FlagDayNCO
02-25-2014, 10:25
Problem with the Early Release concept is it usually back fires.
Back in 1991-1992, fully 90% of my unit's NCOs put in for Early Release "For the convienence of the Government", as it was worded. Our CO called me and my room mate in and talked with us. Explaining to us that he believed us to be top NCOs, the intent of the Early Release program was to get rid of the screw ups. Those screw ups new a good deal and weren't about to leave.
Reality hit the CO in the face when I told him we were part of the drawn down that came from Germany, after we served in Desert Storm. Getting stationed at Fort Benning should have been good, with it being the home of the Infantry and all the high speed schools. Problem was no one in the newly created 3rd Brigade 24th ID was allowed to attend the schools, as we were "locked in" to the new Brigade. One of my enlisted men actually had orders to report to RTB before we left Germany, but had the orders rescinded at Benning.
I even went over to the SF recruiters and explained the situation. His words were honest... We can help you with the DA process and you will eventually have orders cut, but your current unit will make life hell for you during the next several months.
I voted with my feet and moved back to Europe as a Civilian.
DA actually curtailed the program, as so many Soldiers saw the light and were tired of getting screwed by Big Green. :(
Why do they not have voluntary discharges at this point? I have met more than my fair share of soldiers that complain about being in and want to leave. Let all those types leave first. I don’t see the problem with that. Im stunned no one has figured that out yet. It may not be really large numbers, but at least it would help.
They are probably afraid that if they opened it up for a voluntary discharge that most of the folks wortj keeping would leave. Politicians may be dirty, but they ain't stupid. They need at least a baseline quality in the force to defend their corruption globally and project their shady deals world wide. The fraud being sold as the warrior cop cna only bully helpless US civilians. If someone came ashore with guns they'd be fucked...
...politicians know that.
Open the gates and most of America's better troops would leave.
Just my 2 cents
Pericles
02-25-2014, 17:32
Well that makes me feel better. It's the lowest in 75 years instead of 76
Happy to help.
Politicians may be dirty....
Just my 2 cents
You are likely correct in your assessment. I say that considering how ridiculously hard it is to process the bad soldiers out of the Army. Legal puts up a good fight. Often troublesome soldiers must remain in due to JAGs opinions. It is designed that way for one reason or another.
Then again, I have seen good soldiers have to leave because they do not meet H/W standards because they are just naturally built like monsters, but still had solid PT scores.
We have a strange way of conducting Army business sometimes. I do not feel envy for what my commanders have to put up with on these decisions.
And, if we get attacked again, we will have another draft for the left to get hysterical about. Win/win for them. :mad:
Pat
Tree Potato
02-25-2014, 20:58
I received an OPORD yesterday which showed the proposed cuts post by post. What an act of lunacy, nothing but a shot over the bow of congress.
Shack... chess, not checkers, and the Dems have their backs against the wall when it comes to midterms.
They're counting on Congress to push back and limit the worst of this, and yet they'll get credit from low-information voters for "trying" to do something and being obstructed by a bunch of [R] meanies. In the meantime they'll divert funds toward vote buying programs in an attempt to reduce the D losses in the next election. After all, this is about votes and power without concern for national security.
Machiavelli would be impressed.
http://freebeacon.com/end-of-american-military-dominance/
"Hagel said the defense reductions will pose new national security risks for the United States in the future. They also have forced the Pentagon to face the prospect of losing America’s position as the most dominant military power in the world."
This is exactly what the progressives have wanted since the 60s. They think America is the problem, and have been offended by Americas dominance. They have been planning and plotting for this, and under Obama it is finally happening. We have ringside seats for America's fall. And the best part, our morally courageous military leadership are crawling on their knees, bowing and begging for scraps from their destroyer.
Carter, Clinton, Obama. This is what democrats do. The military and veterans stands for everything they are not. They hate us because of it.
IMO.
Today's world - today's strategic vision - today's military - foreseeable manpower needs? :confused:
Here's something to ponder:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004598.html
I was drafted in 1970 - retired in 1993. All I ever saw were manpower reductions combined with increases in technological innovation and force proficiency.
And so it goes...
Richard
"Bout all that's left is the surrender ceremony.
We are lucky Hagel didn't get his first draft to pre civil war era cuts.
http://www.infowars.com/russian-troops-take-up-positions-in-sevastopol-as-ukraine-teeters-on-the-brink-of-civil-war/
Detonics
02-28-2014, 19:57
Carter, Clinton, Obama. This is what democrats do. The military and veterans stands for everything they are not. They hate us because of it.
IMO.
Well said. Sir! If you had 100 of the most radical 1960's anti-Americans put together a dream list of the ills they would wish upon America you'd have a pretty accurate narrative of the Carter, Klinton, Obama "legacy."
Trapper John
03-04-2014, 07:03
Just read this this morning: http://breakingdefense.com/2014/02/the-army-force-cuts-3-truths-4-fallacies/
With all the controversies over budget cuts to Defense and the debate over the appropriate size of Army or the nature and focus of the Army going forward, I think LTG McMaster hit the nail on the head. Essentially he is saying all of the discussion and planning and prognostication is really just a meaningless exercise (my interpretation) based upon fallacies.
We don't get to decide how big or what shape our MIL becomes - or enemies do!
IMO, the issue is just as simple as the Boy Scout's Motto: Be Prepared. Our enemies will let us know what is required soon enough.
Maybe if the disability system wasn't so abused with fake claims half the budget wouldn't go towards paying benefits. Seems like every person I meet who spent less the 5 years in has 80% disability.
Guy I know who just got out. Just received 90%. He is only 27. So for the rest of his life he will collect this. Even thou there is nothing wrong with him.
Military disability is the biggest scam going and we all know it. I only get 40% and that 40% is then subtracted from my pension. But that's because I only claimed what was really wrong with me. People claiming sleep apnea, get the f$#@ck out of here. The abuse of the military disability is right up there with people having more kids to increase their welfare.
Snaquebite
03-04-2014, 07:33
Maybe if the disability system wasn't so abused with fake claims half the budget wouldn't go towards paying benefits. Seems like every person I meet who spent less the 5 years in has 80% disability.
Guy I know who just got out. Just received 90%. He is only 27. So for the rest of his life he will collect this. Even thou there is nothing wrong with him.
Military disability is the biggest scam going and we all know it. I only get 40% and that 40% is then subtracted from my pension. But that's because I only claimed what was really wrong with me. People claiming sleep apnea, get the f$#@ck out of here. The abuse of the military disability is right up there with people having more kids to increase there welfare.
While I agree with you about the false and suspicious claims, I feel many are due their disability and have problems actually collecting. I am one of them. I won't go into detail but all the broken bones, back surgeries, sprains, dislocations and other verifiable ailments I amassed over 28 years have finally caught up with me and I'm still collecting nothing after 6 years of waiting and BS red tape. Now they're telling me they do not have my original claim and I need to re-submit.
While I agree with you about the false and suspicious claims, I feel many are due their disability and have problems actually collecting. I am one of them. I won't go into detail but all the broken bones, back surgeries, sprains, dislocations and other verifiable ailments I amassed over 28 years have finally caught up with me and I'm still collecting nothing after 6 years of waiting and BS red tape. Now they're telling me they do not have my original claim and I need to re-submit.
The people like you who have legit claims are the ones getting screwed by the BS claims flooding the system.
Maybe if the VA would investigate what people are doing for work while claiming more the 50% they could cut these people off.
Guys at my work are on 90 and 100% disability. But run around in body armor all day, climb ladders, climb thru windows. It's a freaking joke.
Trapper John
03-04-2014, 07:52
Maybe if the disability system wasn't so abused with fake claims half the budget wouldn't go towards paying benefits. Seems like every person I meet who spent less the 5 years in has 80% disability.
Guy I know who just got out. Just received 90%. He is only 27. So for the rest of his life he will collect this. Even thou there is nothing wrong with him.
Military disability is the biggest scam going and we all know it. I only get 40% and that 40% is then subtracted from my pension. But that's because I only claimed what was really wrong with me. People claiming sleep apnea, get the f$#@ck out of here. The abuse of the military disability is right up there with people having more kids to increase their welfare.
I have been thinking the same thing for a loooong time - glad you said it. :lifter
I had guys urging me to apply for disability then and even as recently as a few years ago. One even sent me step by step instructions along with a copy of letter he had used to validate his claim - WTF?
The argument was always something like -"why not, the system is there, take full advantage." The problem is that I am fine (well, maybe with one or two exceptions depending upon who you talk to :D).
There are real 2nd and 3rd order effects. Making a claim is just one more case and if everyone did this the system would become clogged with frivolous claims and Vets that really need assistance would be waiting in line or even denied, not to mention the astronomical long-term costs that will not go away.
Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
I figured it this way, I knew the risks going in, I accepted the risks, and I will deal with the outcomes appropriately. If I had to do it over again, I would not do anything differently. I would rather put a gun to my head than take a much needed benefit away from one of my Brothers that was in real need.
The abuse of the disability benefits system just pisses me off.
[Rant off]
Snaquebite
03-04-2014, 08:46
I had guys urging me to apply for disability then and even as recently as a few years ago. One even sent me step by step instructions along with a copy of letter he had used to validate his claim - WTF?
Still got that info? I could use it. :boohoo
Trapper John
03-04-2014, 11:41
Still got that info? I could use it. :boohoo
Sorry Brother I am pretty certain that I don't. Probably pitched it during a move about 5 years ago. I'll check though and let you know. BTW, the trouble you are having is EXACTLY why I am pissed about all the BS whiny claims that are contributing to the backlog.
Had a thought. I know a Brother that might help. Send me a PM.
...so, the cold war is over, Russia is no longer a geopolitical threat and the 80's want their foreign policy back
How's that working out for you Mr President?
I have been thinking the same thing for a loooong time - glad you said it. :lifter
I had guys urging me to apply for disability then and even as recently as a few years ago. One even sent me step by step instructions along with a copy of letter he had used to validate his claim - WTF?
The argument was always something like -"why not, the system is there, take full advantage." The problem is that I am fine (well, maybe with one or two exceptions depending upon who you talk to :D).
There are real 2nd and 3rd order effects. Making a claim is just one more case and if everyone did this the system would become clogged with frivolous claims and Vets that really need assistance would be waiting in line or even denied, not to mention the astronomical long-term costs that will not go away.
Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
I figured it this way, I knew the risks going in, I accepted the risks, and I will deal with the outcomes appropriately. If I had to do it over again, I would not do anything differently. I would rather put a gun to my head than take a much needed benefit away from one of my Brothers that was in real need.
The abuse of the disability benefits system just pisses me off.
[Rant off]
Thats because everyone is scared to say anything bad about the troops.
Military disability isn't just for people who got hurt on the job and can't work. But it's also designed for you to claim injuries/aliments when you get out. So later on in life you can be compensated when these injuries actually become debilitating.
They know most people are young when they get out.
It isn't designed for a 25 year old to collect $3000 a month for sleep aptnea, tendonitis ....etc. For his entire life
If I was in charge. I would pay an investigating company millions of dollars to investigate every VA claim. Then I would begin cutting people off.