View Full Version : The Best (and Worst) War Movies of All Time?
Some might agree and some might disagree with the listing...
Richard
The Best (and Worst) War Movies of All Time
PM, 2014
War movies have been around as long as cinema has existed. There is something about the horror, bravery, tragedy, and excitement of combat that has inspires filmmakers and put butts in the seats. By our thinking, a good war movie says something specific to the conflict it purports to represent. Historical accuracy is also a plus, but it's easy to forgive some errors in the face of a good plot or overall effectiveness of a film. We limited our list to conflicts in which the U.S. fought, and we skipped a few, such as Kosovo or Grenada, that didn't inspire many films. Of course, let us know what movies we're missing.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/the-best-and-worst-war-movies-of-all-time?src=soc_twtr#slide-1
You are right Richard. I agree with a few but disagree with a bunch.......wonder what the true criteria was to make the best or worst? They seemed to jump around on their stated standard........
Popular Mechanics should have asked Veterans what their favorite war movies are. I could be way off, Veterans may not like war movies, but the comment section shows how ignorant some of their choices are. Not being a Veteran, I am interested to see what Veterans like.
Lone Survivor- Read the book, but I'm not going to watch the movie played by Hollywood wannabes. I imagine their excitement when they got the casting call. 'I get to play a SEAL?? Eff ya man I could be a SEAL' :rolleyes: Especially Mark Walberg, the guy who said he would have prevented the 9/11 attack if he was on the plane.
Blackhawk Down- Great movie.
Saving Private Ryan- Great movie.
The Green Berets- I have never seen it, but I see reference to it on this site. I like Apocalypse Now, but it could be disdained by Vietnam Vets.
The Reaper
01-25-2014, 11:52
You know what they say about opinions....
And I have serious doubts about the qualification of the author to make those calls.
TR
I guess he never saw
"Ski Troop Attack" or "Desert Commandos" or Commandos" or "Five For Hell" or "Black Brigade" or "Heroes in Hell" to name a few bad ones.
I got one of those 20 movie sets somewhere cheap. It had "Gung Ho", "Go For Broke" and "Corregidor" up front so I figured the rest might be OK.
I rolled my eyes through "A Walk in the Sun", "Minesweeper", Submarine Base" and "Aerial Gunner".
The rest? Didn't make it past 5 minutes on any of them.
There is some Gary Cooper fly boy film from WW I - can't recall the name - that was pretty bad. Big on mental stress.
If they want to make the best war movie of all time, it should be about Bad Bob, Shriver and those guys.
Team Sergeant
01-25-2014, 12:39
Popular Mechanics rating movies? Black Hawk Down best war movie ever? What a bunch of "tools"........
One of my favorites from the Balkan days...
The Savior (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3Ey4-qfIDU)
Rumblyguts
01-25-2014, 13:38
What about The Longest Day? The scale of that movie, cast, camera angles (running cammando raid filmed from a gondola). Sure there's some corn in it, but to me that's what makes it great.
Of course, I also loved the Elvira movies...
One of my favorites from the Balkan days...
The Savior (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3Ey4-qfIDU)
Vukovar is a good one too PLUS it's in Croatian!
http://youtu.be/L7Zc6LU5b-8
Scimitar
01-25-2014, 14:41
Worst Vietnam War Movie: The Green Berets (1968)
Yeah, I just stopped reading.
S
Popular Mechanics rating movies? What a bunch of "tools"........
Haha... Yeap
I'm surprised that Saving Private Ryan wasn't listed. I can see a trend with this author, but don't get his pickings.
TrapperFrank
01-25-2014, 15:51
I would bet they didn't even consider All Quiet on the Western Front,Paths of Glory], Das Boot, The Odd Angry Shot or Breaker Morant
Remington Raidr
01-25-2014, 15:55
"They Were Expendable".
"Go Tell the Spartans".....
Surf n Turf
01-25-2014, 23:31
Some of my picks --- better than those in the article
SnT
Civil War Gone with the Wind
1812 ?
WWI All Quiet on the Western Front
Blue Max
Gallipoli
WWII Casablanca
The Longest Day
Great Escape
In Harm's Way
Das Boot
Viet Nam (Early) Go Tell the Spartans (PRB & I were the only ones who saw it)
Green Berets
We were Soldiers
Viet Nam (Retrospective) Apocalypse Now
Airbornelawyer
01-25-2014, 23:52
High on the list of Airbornelawyer's "Worst Website Link Trolling Activities": putting every item on a list on a separate page to inflate page views and push more ads. Here is the list in summary, though you may still want to visit the pages to read the reasons given. I linked to the individual pages.
• Best War Movie Ever: Black Hawk Down (2001) (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/the-best-and-worst-war-movies-of-all-time)
• Best Antiwar Movie Ever: Full Metal Jacket (1987) (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/the-best-and-worst-war-movies-of-all-time-2)
• Worst War Movie Ever: Inchon (1981) (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/the-best-and-worst-war-movies-of-all-time-3)
• Best Revolutionary War Movie: The Crossing (2000) (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/the-best-and-worst-war-movies-of-all-time-4)
• Worst Revolutionary War Movie: Revolution (1985) (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/the-best-and-worst-war-movies-of-all-time-5)
• Best War of 1812 Movie: The Buccaneer (1958) (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/the-best-and-worst-war-movies-of-all-time-6)
• Worst War of 1812 Movie: Mutiny (1952) (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/the-best-and-worst-war-movies-of-all-time-7)
• Best Mexican-American War Movie: One Man's Hero (1999) (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/the-best-and-worst-war-movies-of-all-time-8)
• Worst Mexican-American War Movie: One Man's Hero (1999) (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/the-best-and-worst-war-movies-of-all-time-9)
• Best Civil War Movie: Glory (1989) (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/the-best-and-worst-war-movies-of-all-time-10)
- Runner-Up: Gettysburg (1993)
• Worst Civil War Movie: Birth of a Nation (1915) (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/the-best-and-worst-war-movies-of-all-time-11)
- Runner-Up: Gods and Generals (2003)
• Best World War I Movie: Lost Battalion (2001) (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/the-best-and-worst-war-movies-of-all-time-12)
- Runner-Up: Lawrence of Arabia (1962)
• Worst World War I Movie: Von Richthofen and Brown (1971) (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/the-best-and-worst-war-movies-of-all-time-13)
• Best World War II Movie: Downfall (2004) (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/the-best-and-worst-war-movies-of-all-time-14)
- Runner-Up: Letters from Iwo Jima (2006)
• Worst World War II Movie: Battle of the Bulge (1965) (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/the-best-and-worst-war-movies-of-all-time-15)
- Runner-Up: Pearl Harbor (2001)
• Best Korean War Movie: Pork Chop Hill (1959) (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/the-best-and-worst-war-movies-of-all-time-16)
• Worst Korean War Movie: MASH (1970) (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/the-best-and-worst-war-movies-of-all-time-17)
• Best Vietnam War Movie: Bat 21 (1988) (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/the-best-and-worst-war-movies-of-all-time-18)
• Worst Vietnam War Movie: The Green Berets (1968) (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/the-best-and-worst-war-movies-of-all-time-19)
• Best Persian Gulf War Movie: Jarhead (2005) (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/the-best-and-worst-war-movies-of-all-time-20)
- Runner-Up: Live from Baghdad (2002)
• Worst Persian Gulf War Movie: The Finest Hour (1992) (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/the-best-and-worst-war-movies-of-all-time-21)
• Best Afghanistan War Movie: Lone Survivor (2014) (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/the-best-and-worst-war-movies-of-all-time-22)
• Worst Afghanistan War Movie: Lions for Lambs (2007) (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/the-best-and-worst-war-movies-of-all-time-23)
• Best Iraq War (Operation Iraqi Freedom) Movie: The Hurt Locker (2008) (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/the-best-and-worst-war-movies-of-all-time-24)
• Worst Iraq War Movie: Green Zone (2010) (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/the-best-and-worst-war-movies-of-all-time-25)
I would bet they didn't even consider All Quiet on the Western Front,Paths of Glory, Das Boot, The Odd Angry Shot or Breaker Morant
The list is pretty clearly biased toward Americans. Nothing before 1776 and no Napoleonic Wars either. The only ones listed that don't have Americans as protagonists or antagonists are Von Richthofen and Brown, Lawrence of Arabia and Downfall, and Letters from Iwo Jima is the only other one not told from an American viewpoint. I agree all the movies you cited belong on a list of great war movies.
Haha... Yeap
I'm surprised that Saving Private Ryan wasn't listed. I can see a trend with this author, but don't get his pickings.
He mentions it in his discussion of Downfall. "Why pick this over the scores of good World War II movies? Most of the others are exercises in myth-building, most notably the appealing and well-made but worthless Saving Private Ryan. Some try to deconstruct the myth, like the counterculture Kelly's Heroes or The Dirty Dozen. Few films have the guts to immerse a viewer in the war and strip away the context that the future brings." I am with him on this. Saving Private Ryan is a visually and technically impressive work of film, but the story is weak and, indeed, insulting. Some 14 million directly killed by the Nazis, and millions more killed as a direct result of the war Hitler launched, and the only thing that would make their war worthwhile would be saving this one kid? I have said it before and I will say it again: Spielberg is overrated as a director. He is a great cinematographer but a bad storyteller, and a great director must be both, since a film is a story told in a visual medium.
That said, since the writer of the list did bother to include TV movies, I would have placed Band of Brothers first on World War II movies. Actually, I would probably put it as best ever in place of his Blackhawk Down choice.
I credit the writer with many good choices, and especially for dismissing the many preachy antiwar movies Hollywood loves like MASH and all the anti-War on Terror movies of the 2000s. I would have to disagree that Full Metal Jacket is the "Best Antiwar Movie Ever" - R. Lee Ermey's DI is so over the top that he's ironically popular among drills, and I think Animal Mother is far more quoted than anything Joker says. Indeed, I don't think Full Metal Jacket is even Stanley Kubrick's best antiwar movie, but rather Paths of Glory.
Though I guess if the whole point is to troll for page views and stir up debate, the author has succeeded.
AL
mojaveman
01-26-2014, 01:21
I suppose if I were a combat veteran I would make a much better critic of war movies, but anyway, my father took me to see "Patton" when it came out in 1970? I was about 7 years old and was very impressed with the opening scene where Geroge C. Scott was giving the inspiring speech in front of the large American flag. I seem to remember that "Young Winston" and "Zeppelin" came out about the same time and I liked them too.
Other favorites? "All Quiet on the Western Front" and also "The Red Badge of Courage".
The worst? Probably "Apocalypse Now". It was an impressive film but I didn't like how it portrayed the American military in Vietnam and in particular U.S. Army Special Forces.
Remington Raidr
01-26-2014, 01:51
but Band of Brothers has GOTTA fit in there somewhere.
but Band of Brothers has GOTTA fit in there somewhere.
That was a tv mini-series. A super good one.
That list was pretty crappy. On his worst movies he forgot Windtalkers. Read a book on it, such a great story. Tried watching the movie and couldn't get past 30 mins. I'm not really a Nicolas Cage hater but watching him trying to act made me want to hurt myself.
Team Sergeant
01-26-2014, 09:27
Worst Vietnam movie, "Apocalypse Now" is tied with "The Deer Hunter"......:D
The Reaper
01-26-2014, 10:55
Worst Vietnam movie, "Apocalypse Now" is tied with "The Deer Hunter"......:D
And Hollywood loved them, along with the Vietnam anti-war swill like "Casualties of War" and Iraq trash like "The Hurt Locker."
Funny when those who make the movies that define history for the majority of viewers have such a bias against it and zero experience in one. Then their peers proclaim the greatness of the works while stereotyping the vets as evil, heartless, deranged, or murderers.
TR
Bit of a hijack
That said, since the writer of the list did bother to include TV movies, I would have placed Band of Brothers first on World War II movies.
but Band of Brothers has GOTTA fit in there somewhere.
Within the Band of Brothers mini series, what was your favorite episode?
Mine was cross roads.
How naive I am to have liked those movies. Shows what I know :o
Team Sergeant
01-26-2014, 11:17
How naive I am to have liked those movies. Shows what I know :o
"Apocalypse Now" & "The Deer Hunter" "War fiction/fantasy" movies......Sec of State john kerry loves them too.....
Hollywood feeds off itself in the war movie dept. as very few of it's war movies are grounded in facts.
Worst Vietnam movie, "Apocalypse Now" is tied with "The Deer Hunter"......:D
and not a war flic but throw in 'Rambo' as it's the same nonsense genre.
'Pack of Lips now' is the silliest piece of shit ever made
MK262MOD1
01-26-2014, 13:29
This list is just terrible.
Remington Raidr
01-26-2014, 13:47
Bit of a hijack
Within the Band of Brothers mini series, what was your favorite episode?
Mine was cross roads.
The last seven minutes, maybe because I am getting old, is classic.
"Seemed like you figured that you thought that you could do just about anything. And after the war was over and you came back out, why, you lost a lot of that. Or at least I did. - Shifty Powers.
futureSOF
01-26-2014, 15:36
Well, atleast "Zero Dark Thirty" didn't make the list
Utah Bob
01-26-2014, 22:42
"Go Tell the Spartans".....
Absolutely!
Team Sergeant
01-27-2014, 12:19
"Go Tell the Spartans".....
Don't forget "The Odd Angry Shot" :munchin
The worst Korean War movie had to be the one with the most interesting effort: Cease Fire (1953). It's a docudrama filmed in Korea, during the war, and enlisted actual combat soldiers to play the roles of, uh, combat soldiers. One of them was KIA in the film and for real 12 hours later back with his unit.
WARNING: The music contains an "earworm"! :eek:
Cease Fire (full movie - 67 min.) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1paqosv25Sw)
Pat
Astronomy
01-27-2014, 17:09
Screw Popular Mechanics. Grab a keg of beer, some pizza, and a box of cigars... then watch these:
Ulzana's Raid (small unit warfare in the American Southwest, late 1800s)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulzana's_Raid
The Bedford Incident (Cold War / WW III)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bedford_Incident
Guns at Batasi (FID; UK MiTT in Africa)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns_at_Batasi
Failsafe (Cold War / WW III)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fail-Safe_(film)
The Young Lions (WWII)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Young_Lions_(film)
The Duellists (Code of the Duel across the Napoleonic Era)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Duellists
Master & Commander
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_and_Commander:_The_Far_Side_of_the_World
The Blue Max
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blue_Max
Culloden (You-are-there style re-enactment of the defeat of the Highland Clans)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057982/
Pork Chop Hill (Korean War infantry attack)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pork_Chop_Hill
Bridge on the River Kwai (DA Raid)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bridge_on_the_River_Kwai
Lawrence of Arabia (UW)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_of_Arabia_(film)
Siege of Firebase Gloria (USMC laying down some fire)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Siege_of_Firebase_Gloria
Waterloo (Everybody laying down some fire...)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterloo_(1970_film)
Battle for Algiers (COIN in Algeria)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_of_Algiers
When Trumpets Fade (WWII; Hurtgen Forest; overshadowed by Pvt Ryan; better)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Trumpets_Fade
Das Boot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Boot
Dr. Strangelove
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Strangelove
Gettysburg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettysburg_(1993_film)
Last of the Mohicans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_of_the_Mohicans_(1992_film)
Cromwell
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromwell_(film)
A Bridge Too Far
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Bridge_Too_Far_(film)
Stalingrad (1993)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108211/
Cross of Iron
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Iron
Soldier of Orange (UW in occupied Holland)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soldier_of_Orange
Thin Red Line
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thin_Red_Line_(1998_film)
Ambush (Finland vs. Soviets WWII)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0162625/
The Bridges at Toko-Ri (Korean War aircraft carrier combat, CAS, CSAR)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bridges_at_Toko-Ri
Battle of Britain (worth it just for the airplanes and cinematography)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain_(film)
Farewell to the King (WWII Borneo UW)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farewell_to_the_King
Seven Samurai (FID; Contractors vs. Bandits; the original Magnificent Seven)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Samurai
Zulu Dawn (Expeditionary Warfare)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zulu_Dawn
The Sand Pebbles (Small Wars; gunboat diplomacy)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sand_Pebbles_(film)
The Wind and the Lion (T. Roosevelt, The Raisuli, Germans, the USMC... what's not to like?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wind_and_the_Lion
The Great Escape (SERE)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Escape_(film)
Kingdom of Heaven (Crusader Warfare; historical timeline accuracy? Not quite...but who cares?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Heaven_(film)
The One That got Away (SAS SR/Evasion in Iraq 1991)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_One_That_Got_Away_(1996_film)
Paths of Glory (WWI, French Army, courts martial, & the CYA consequences of failure)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paths_of_Glory
The Caine Mutiny (WWII Naval drama; leadership in crisis)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Caine_Mutiny_(film)
Don't forget "The Odd Angry Shot" :munchin
Just watched that tonight on your suggestion. I LOVED the brass device on the USGI baseball caps! I wish I had thought of that. I just had a little black SPC/4 thingy on mine. :D
Pat
Cross of Iron is free on Youtube.
And more anectdotal evidence for the ages olde adage that "Everyone's a critic". ;)
Astronomy's list includes many of my favorites, but a war movie not mentioned - Forest Gump - one of my favorites and a parable of my generation's coming of age.
Another favorite of mine is Twelve O'Clock High.
My Dad was in the PTO in WW2 and the series Victory At Sea was a favorite of his.
Richard
Chrome and Hot Leather (1971)
"Don't muck around with a Green Berets Mama!"
Trailer is here:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX6DKkF3nfI
27250
1stindoor
01-28-2014, 07:39
Chrome and Hot Leather (1971)
"Don't muck around with a Green Berets Mama!"
Trailer is here:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX6DKkF3nfI
27250
Great...now I have to find it and watch it.
The Guns of Navarone 1961
Where Eagles Dare 1968
Stealth Fighter starring Ice-T should be up on the list.
mark46th
01-28-2014, 09:30
Not about America but "Zulu" is one of my favorites...
Team Sergeant
01-28-2014, 10:34
Great...now I have to find it and watch it.
I think I'll pass......:rolleyes:
Streck-Fu
01-28-2014, 10:53
Great...now I have to find it and watch it.
It's actually pretty bad. I watched it on Netflix ....well, Just because it was there....
mojaveman
01-28-2014, 11:05
Not about America but "Zulu" is one of my favorites...
Like the movie. I thought they did a good job with the Battle of Isandlwana. Had the British soldiers carried more cartridges on their belts they might have held the Zulus. Too bad they were all in the supply wagons. I was thinking at least four cartridge pouches on every soldier.
What a dumb article to produce such an interesting thread. Some really great alternative suggestions (and one even dumber one).
While certainly not in the realm of great war movies, Breaker Morant (1980) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080310/?ref_=nv_sr_5), was shown during a Military Law course I attended. Interesting story, excellent acting, and quite instructive.
Guymullins
01-28-2014, 12:33
Not about America but "Zulu" is one of my favorites...
Hey, it was chock-full of future African Americans.
And Hollywood loved them, along with the Vietnam anti-war swill like "Casualties of War" and Iraq trash like "The Hurt Locker."
Funny when those who make the movies that define history for the majority of viewers have such a bias against it and zero experience in one. Then their peers proclaim the greatness of the works while stereotyping the vets as evil, heartless, deranged, or murderers.
TRMs. Bigelow made clear her personal position on OIF at the conclusing of her acceptance speech for best director at the 82nd Academy Awards on Sunday, March 7, 2010. She said:And I’d just like to dedicate this to the women and men in the military who risk their lives on a daily basis in Iraq and Afghanistan and around the world. And may they come home safe. Thank you. IMO, Zero Dark Thirty made clearer her position on GWOT, her agreement with the way America is fighting it, and her unqualified admiration for Americans in armed service. I think the fact that the directors' branch of the Academy did not nominate her for best director reflects a broader ambivalence in Hollywood IRT Bush the Younger's leadership in GWOT but not hostility towards those who fight it.*
I also believe that if one casts a slightly broader net to include the small screen (television), it becomes increasingly difficult to find evidence that veterans are demonized as they were in the 1970s and early 1980s. For example, the two most watched dramas on television, NCIS and NCIS: LA, have veterans as central characters. While Person of Interest does not draw the audience it deserves, and The Unit could not IMO overcome the impact of the 2007-08 WGA strike nor the controversies centering around Eric Haney nor Shawn Ryan's focus on The Shield, multiple storylines of both series emphasized the virtue of armed service.
YMMV.
__________________________________________________ ___
* This interpretation does not discount the possiblity that Ms. Bigelow also experienced that year some backlash generated by Megan Ellison and the sensibilities she brings to movie making.
The Reaper
01-28-2014, 16:31
Ms. Bigelow made clear her personal position on OIF at the conclusing of her acceptance speech for best director at the 82nd Academy Awards on Sunday, March 7, 2010. She said: IMO, Zero Dark Thirty made clearer her position on GWOT, her agreement with the way America is fighting it, and her unqualified admiration for Americans in armed service. I think the fact that the directors' branch of the Academy did not nominate her for best director reflects a broader ambivalence in Hollywood IRT Bush the Younger's leadership in GWOT but not hostility towards those who fight it.*
I also believe that if one casts a slightly broader net to include the small screen (television), it becomes increasingly difficult to find evidence that veterans are demonized as they were in the 1970s and early 1980s. For example, the two most watched dramas on television, NCIS and NCIS: LA, have veterans as central characters. While Person of Interest does not draw the audience it deserves, and The Unit could not IMO overcome the impact of the 2007-08 WGA strike nor the controversies centering around Eric Haney nor Shawn Ryan's focus on The Shield, multiple storylines of both series emphasized the virtue of armed service.
YMMV.
__________________________________________________ ___
* This interpretation does not discount the possiblity that Ms. Bigelow also experienced that year some backlash generated by Megan Ellison and the sensibilities she brings to movie making.
The Unit was some of the worst drivel I have ever seen.
Completely disconnected from reality.
TR
Didn't Eric Haney, the Quiet Professional, write The Unit?
The Unit?!?! With the Allstate guy?
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMWAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
mark46th
01-28-2014, 17:37
The Unit- How many wives are that involved in the training, planning and operation of the unit?
The Unit was some of the worst drivel I have ever seen.
Completely disconnected from reality.
TRTR--
Late last year, you provided a substantial list of issues for an unscripted reality show centering around the every day lives of veterans and their families (http://professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=535855&postcount=6). IIRC, The Unit, despite its many faults (from a story telling and techincal perspective), and its criticisms from BTDTs such as yourself, addressed each of those issues at least once during its four-season run.
Can any television show or film provide a realistic account of any activity conducted at an elite level, especially ones related to the conduct of war? If such works were possible from a technical and financial perspective, how many viewers would be able to understand what they were watching?
Or should film maakers and showrunners be encouraged to make works that that manage fleeting moments of authenticity that get viewers to reflect carefully about matters that impact members of the armed services and their families?
From my perspective, some QPs are creating a no win situation for themselves and for civilians that invest time and money to understand and to support SF. For example, on this BB, many QPs have expressed repeatedly a preference for civilians to make more of an effort to understand and to respect the sacrifices Special Forces soldiers make in the nation's defense. At the same time, many QPs express unrelenting disdain for many of those efforts, if not also contempt for audiences, because movies and shows do not fulfill expectations for realism.
IMO, there comes a point where the chorus of "You're doing it wrong / This is unrealistic and, therefore, a worthless waste of time" is going to impact adversely the motivation of civilians who have other options in what they watch. In turn, because it is ultimately about the money, producers, directors, studios, distributors, and networks will make different choices in what they bring to the market place.
My $0.02.
Well Sig... that's because we're 'complicated'...
dollarbill
01-28-2014, 20:07
Troy---Nothing like a good Trojan, horse that is.
Team Sergeant
01-28-2014, 21:43
Didn't Eric Haney, the Quiet Professional, write The Unit?
Eric Haney was a Army Ranger. He was never a Special Forces soldier.
Eric Haney was a Army Ranger. He was never a Special Forces soldier.
Yes sir I know, that's why I used pink text. I read Inside Delta Force years ago and couldn't put it down. It wasn't until I joined PS.com that I realized he was a fake.
The Reaper
01-28-2014, 21:54
TR--
Late last year, you provided a substantial list of issues for an unscripted reality show centering around the every day lives of veterans and their families (http://professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=535855&postcount=6). IIRC, The Unit, despite its many faults (from a story telling and techincal perspective), and its criticisms from BTDTs such as yourself, addressed each of those issues at least once during its four-season run.
Can any television show or film provide a realistic account of any activity conducted at an elite level, especially ones related to the conduct of war? If such works were possible from a technical and financial perspective, how many viewers would be able to understand what they were watching?
Or should film maakers and showrunners be encouraged to make works that that manage fleeting moments of authenticity that get viewers to reflect carefully about matters that impact members of the armed services and their families?
From my perspective, some QPs are creating a no win situation for themselves and for civilians that invest time and money to understand and to support SF. For example, on this BB, many QPs have expressed repeatedly a preference for civilians to make more of an effort to understand and to respect the sacrifices Special Forces soldiers make in the nation's defense. At the same time, many QPs express unrelenting disdain for many of those efforts, if not also contempt for audiences, because movies and shows do not fulfill expectations for realism.
IMO, there comes a point where the chorus of "You're doing it wrong / This is unrealistic and, therefore, a worthless waste of time" is going to impact adversely the motivation of civilians who have other options in what they watch. In turn, because it is ultimately about the money, producers, directors, studios, distributors, and networks will make different choices in what they bring to the market place.
My $0.02.
It would appear that exaggeration, generalizations, and hyperbole makes for a good TV show for the masses, but not so much in an academic work.
MASH was a good movie, but the TV show eventually suffered from the egos and prejudices of the actors and staff. Possibly, some people thought that was the way a medical unit conducted itself in combat, but I think your average viewer saw through the anti-war plots and watched to see the interaction between the characters. It was a comedy, or started out as one.
In a similar fashion, Saving Private Ryan was a great movie but had a ridiculous premise or sending a squad with a Captain in command to find a soldier somewhere in France in the midst of the early Normandy Campaign. The underlying theme of mission dedication, brotherhood, and selfless service made it an outstanding movie, even among those who knew that the mission was a complete farce.
BHD has been cited in the article as the greatest war movie of all time. There are several fictions within the movie, but after reading the well-written book and knowing some of the guys who were on the ground there, it was close enough that I had no issues watching and enjoying it. I think Bowden did the story credit without going off track to make a political statement.
Band of Brothers undoubtedly took some poetic license, even while being an ostensibly true story. The interactions between characters is the real story, and the military issues in the background are close enough to real that few other than the characters themselves will know the difference. The story and the characters ARE the feature of the movie. American soldiers are not generally portrayed as psychopaths, deviants, criminals, etc.
The difference between the swill Hollywood makes and the real military is very small. The Unit could have been a relatively truthful story, and still been successful, if not even moreso. Ignorant writers and executives wrote in ridiculous stuff that the tech advisors were unable to convince them to remove, and the show suffered for it. I watched part of one episode, and that was all I could stand. The theme of the show for that night seemed to be diversity, and the non-members had to step in and perform as well as the members would have, and of course, they did. At the level the people in that unit operate at, that is neither possible or plausible.
Any SF soldier on this board could provide enough war stories with at least a kernel of credibility that would resonate to make several shows worth of entertainment. The fact that we don't have Miss America picking up a gun and assaulting with us should not detract from the story line.
It occurs to me that Hollywood today functions much like the Reich Propaganda Ministry in trying to change popular opinion to conform with the executives' opinions. The military soldiers are frequently poor oppressed people who are not smart enough to realize how they are being manipulated/exploited by their leadership, or they are deranged psychopaths who are just there to enjoy the opportunity for some unconstrained violence on the enemy, or innocent civilians, if the enemy is not available. Almost all of the Vietnam movies reinforce those stereotypes.
In short, I don't think the problem is our unrealistic expectations. IMHO, if Hollywood would make movies that the public wants to see, and not those they themselves want to promote to try and sway popular opinion, the quality issues would resolve themselves. Most of the anti-war pics have been flops, despite peer support. The ones that were not as obviously biased have been generally successful at the box office.
None of the movies (and TV shows) I mentioned above lacked commercial success. Not all of them are realistic, but the entertainment value was sufficient to overlook the errors. Does anyone really think the Army depicted in "Stripes" was real? At the same time, IMHO, "Navy SEALs" sucked, except as an unintended comedy. "Lone Survivor" appears to be doing pretty well, and while the story is generally true, the details are largely fabricated. The public is paying to see it, regardless. I saw it with my son and found it entertaining. There are movies and TV shows that can accurately depict wartime service and military units, to include SF, while simultaneously providing quality entertainment. I don't believe asking for both is unrealistic, or is alienating any significant portion of the American population outside communists, anti-war protesters, and the Hollywood back-patting elite.
Look at the opening campaign with SF and the Northern Alliance against the Taliban, the battle for COP Keating, the battle of Ganjgal, any of a hundred SFODA tours, or anyone from this page http://www.history.army.mil/html/moh/afghanistan.html and report the story accurately. No need for fictional characters, nonexistent love stories, artificial toxic leaders, fake animosities, bogus conspiracies, etc., etc.
The stories and ability to portray them realistically enough are there. Hollywood just needs to find those stories, and depict them for the viewing public without trying to spin it with their own message. Watch an episode of "Enlisted" and see how that would make you feel if you were an Army Soldier. The sad part is, very few if any people in Hollywood executive positions today have any military experience beyond a brief MSNBC segment, brought to them by Code Pink. Unfortunately, I have little hope that will change anytime soon.
People are not rejecting military movies and shows. They are rejecting those with an anti-American agenda. Americans generally love their military, and its personnel, and want to see them serving honorably and doing well. After all, those troops are our sons and daughters, and generally their values represent the best in this country. Only a few want to see them cheaply characterized as evil killers, or buffoons.
Just my .02, YMMV.
TR
GratefulCitizen
01-28-2014, 22:58
Hollywood doesn't seem to understand the difference between popularity and honor.
The powerful in Hollywood can bestow or withhold popularity, and all that comes with it, through various means.
It is a commodity to them.
Honor, however, can neither be bestowed nor withheld.
It can only be recognized and illuminated.
The American people (largely) can detect the difference.
That is why the military is held in a regard that others cannot attain, regardless of popularity.
Many celebrities, politicians, and Hollywood power brokers seethe with envy about that which remains forever out of reach:
Honor.
Hollywood doesn't seem to understand the difference between popularity and honor.
The powerful in Hollywood can bestow or withhold popularity, and all that comes with it, through various means.
It is a commodity to them.
Honor, however, can neither be bestowed nor withheld.
It can only be recognized and illuminated.
The American people (largely) can detect the difference.
That is why the military is held in a regard that others cannot attain, regardless of popularity.
Many celebrities, politicians, and Hollywood power brokers seethe with envy about that which remains forever out of reach:
Honor.
How can one understand, let alone be envious of something they do not understand or ever had - particularly Honor.
While I posted the link to the full movie in the Library, I didn't offer it here as, in my opinion, one of the best about Viet Nam: http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44854
I've been filling in the blanks using Astronomy's list (just watched FB Gloria) and I think 84C fills the bill.
Pat
Team Sergeant
01-29-2014, 19:18
How can one understand, let alone be envious of something they do not understand or ever had - particularly Honor.
Game, set, match.
You could probably count on one hand how many in hollywood actually possess any semblance of Honor.