Pace Count

[Team Sergeant]

Originally posted by Valhal
Can you give some examples of how you use pace count for land nav.

On a flat paved marked greenbelt I count about 900 paces to a mile, that's wearing a 40lbs weighted vest and 5lbs ankle weights doing a little over 15 minute a mile tempo.

What should I expect in the rough terrain of the foot hills?

Thanks,
Mark


Good point lets start a Land Nav thread.

When you are developing your pace count you should;

a. walk a flat 100m and do a count.
b. walk in rough terrain 100m and conduct a count.
c. walk in rough terrain with ruck and gear 100m and perform a count.

Do not become transfixed with pace count. Learn to read a map blindfolded.
Learn how to recognize terrain features and to associate those terrain features you are seeing with the map you are carrying.

The Team Sergeant

[Roguish Lawyer]

I've had brief instruction in underwater navigation for diving. What, if anything, is different on land?

[Team Sergeant]

You talking about surface or sub-surface navigation?

I'm sure one of the SCUBA guys can give you a reply. Combat Diver was not one of my specialties.

[NousDefionsDoc]

I think you should pace count for klicks and not miles. Use the metric system, that way when you do it in another country, you'll be set. Plus its easier.

[Valhal]

Originally posted by Team Sergeant
Good point lets start a Land Nav thread.

When you are developing your pace count you should;

a. walk a flat 100m and do a count.
b. walk in rough terrain 100m and conduct a count.
c. walk in rough terrain with ruck and gear 100m and perform a count.

Do not become transfixed with pace count. Learn to read a map blindfolded.
Learn how to recognize terrain features and to associate those terrain features you are seeing with the map you are carrying.

The Team Sergeant

Thanks Team Sergeant,

Your advice will be taken; I am joining a local orienteering club and will practice. At night though the pace count will be important.
To determine distance as you walk through various contour lines is there a trick?

Here is a scenario. You are in a jungle or heavy forested area and you can not see terrain features at a distance. You shoot your azimuth, and you start moving out. The terrain differences are subtle and make it hard to know exactly where you are at. The distance on the map from point A to point B is ten km as a bird flies. Question is you have numerous elevation changes, how do you determine walking distance?

Thanks,
Mark

[Team Sergeant]

Originally posted by Valhal
Here is a scenario. You are in a jungle or heavy forested area and you can not see terrain features at a distance. You shoot your azimuth, and you start moving out. The terrain differences are subtle and make it hard to know exactly where you are at. The distance on the map from point A to point B is ten km as a bird flies. Question is you have numerous elevation changes, how do you determine walking distance?



Good question Mark, now I have one for you.

Did you learn to run before you learned to walk?

In order to successfully navigate through a jungle one should have an advanced understanding of map reading and more than a beginner’s level of experience. You must incorporate all aspects of land navigation, pace count, route selection, map study etc. before one tries to tackle a triple canopy jungle. One discipline alone will not get you through the scenario you posted.

Learn the basics before you head out on the advanced skills trials!

If you think it is daunting navigating through a jungle, try the abovementioned scenario while watching for booby traps and enemy soldiers.

The Team Sergeant

[Desert Fox]

Hi,
I rewrite the answer I gave in the fieldcraft thread:

I count approx 115 pairs (easier to count 2 paces than each) for 100m of forest.Thats because I avoid obstacles.On a road I do approx half less paces.But this is for me, for you it will changes.So you have to try.Very easy to found your paces with a GPS.
I use a little rope and I attach it to a button hole.Every 100m I add a node.

[Valhal]

Roger that Team Sergeant, on that note I'm going to turn off this computer and go running.

Thanks,
Mark

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Team Sergeant
You talking about surface or sub-surface navigation?

I'm sure one of the SCUBA guys can give you a reply. Combat Diver was not one of my specialties.

Subsurface.

[CSB]

Pace counts are still useful, remember, a navigator seeks every piece of available information to determine his position. Here's the procedure I used/taught:

First, start with at least 400 meters of flat level terrain, preferably in a square (To equalize slope). Walk the perimeter, counting your steps. Divide by 4. That is your base pace count for 100 meters. (Let's assume it's 135 steps per 100 meters). Write that number in the little green memorandum book in your shirt pocket.

That is the LOWEST pace count you will ever have. Why? Because it was daylight, you are fresh, with no load, on level ground, in good weather, etc. From then on everything else will increase your pace count.

Night - You will take shorter steps, and will wander more. That means more steps to travel 100 meters.

Loaded/Tired - Your steps will shorten and you will tend to look down. You won't follow an azimuth as accurately. Result: even more steps per 100 meters.

Uphill - You will take shorter steps, and you will be traveling a greater distance than what a point to point measurement on a map would indicate. (The hypotenuse of a right triangle is always the longest side). On a 30 degree slope, moving 100 meters as shown on the map requires you to march 115 meters over the ground. Also, you will tend to "cut the contours" (zig-zag) and that will increase travel distance. For the same reason, even traveling downhill will not usually result in a lower pace count than your base count, and may even be greater than your base pace count.

Rain/Snow/Soft soil - All will cause you to shorten your step, and than means more steps per 100 meters.

So, based on experience, you will begin to keep a list of pace counts in the back of your memo book. It might look something like this:

Base = 137
Ruck/LBE = 145
Night = 150
Tired/Ruck/Rain = 155
Uphill (shallow) = 160
Uphill (steep) = 175
Max (Night/Ruck/Tired/Uphill) = 200

You will adjust as you go. For example, assume the first leg of a rucksack march causes you to cross a road after 400 meters. You start with a estimate of 145 steps per 100 meters. After traveling 400 meters (4 knots in the pace cord), you have not come to the road, but you see it in front of you. Continue to count steps as you cross the road. Let's say that was 20 extra steps. Hmm, must be a little more tired than you thought. 20 steps, divided by 4 = 5 extra steps per 100 meters. Next leg, use a pace count of 150 per 100 meters. After a while, you will get surprisingly accurate in measuring distance in all kinds of conditions. Your notes will help you, and your men will trust you.

If you are keeping pace for sport navigation (orienteering), the same rules apply, but you will find it useful to count every other step (such as when your left foot strikes the ground). That way, you can add a Running pace count for cross country jaunts from control to control at a jog. The numbers will be about half that of counting every step, but again you will want a base count, followed with adjustments for weather, exhaustion, slope, etc.

There are several ways to keep track of pace, but my favorite is the simple ranger technique of a boot lace cut off and tied through the top buttonhole of the shirt, allowing the end with the little plastic thing at the tip to hang down about belt level. After traveling 100 meters, tie an overhand knot near the top of the string. Next 100 meters, tie another knot. In between knot-tying, curl up the string and stuff it in a top pocket. Day or night, slide your fingers down the string to count the knots/100 meter segments. When you get to the destination, untie the knots.

And now the bonus question:
What's the correct name for the little plastic thingies at the end of boot laces that keep the end from getting frazzled?

[Valhal]

That is some great information, thank you CSB.

Mark

[Team Sergeant]

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Subsurface.

Hey SCUBA dudes.... Some thoughts on underwater nav?

[Sdiver]

Originally posted by Team Sergeant
Hey SCUBA dudes.... Some thoughts on underwater nav?

Sorry for being late Team Sergeant....I have No Excuse.

Differences between U/W and Land nav.

First off, on land you don't have to worry about running out of air. Now that that's out of the way, on to more serious examples.

U/W "land marks" and features tend to look the same, whereas on land once you get a land mark in the back of your mind, you can more easily ID it. ***Of course under Ideal conditions*** But even under less than Ideal conditions, you have a better chance of picking up a land mark, while on land.

U/W you are really hampered by only a few set of measuements, as oppossed to the ones that CSB posted above.

U/W you have : (using 100 meter measurements)
Kick Cycles
Elapsed Time
Tank Pressure
Arm Spans
Measure tape or line

Kick Cycles are measured by each leg completing one kick. This is best when there is unlimited viz and NO current to deal with, also the type of equipment that you are using/wearing. That can throw off your streamlining.

Elapsed Time is measured just by using the time it takes you to swim a given distance (100 meters). But the disadvantage of using this method is again having to deal with currents and if you stop for any reason, it'll throw off your pace.

Tank Pressure is used for more of a longer distance traveled. At the same depth and activity level, tank pressure drops at a fairly even rate. Disadvantage again is having to deal with currents and if you change your depth or activity level, your air use will change.

Arm spans are the most accurate measurement, next to using a line or measure tape. What ever the conditions that you are in and what ever activity level you're at, just reaching out and pulling yourself alone the bottom, is the best way to measure distance, next to using a tape or line.

Measure tape or line is the most accurate measurment, but difficult for long distances. It's used primarily in wreck diving, cavern/cave diving, search and recovery diving and when high precision is required.

Using a compass U/W takes practice. Even though it may "feel" wrong, trust in your compass. But the one thing that you must be warry of when using a compass U/W is you must watch out for your depth changes. A diver will get so engrossed in thier compass, they will actually being to assend upwards. That's why it's important for your buddy to be with you when doing U/W compass navs. You can concentrait on the compass and your buddy can watch the depth for you and let you know if you are assending or even desending.

[CSB]

In a word, it's hard. Currents will play havoc with swimming a straight line. Even if you are accurately holding a compass heading, the drift will traverse you sideways.

As noted above, distance measurement is fiendishly difficult.

Here's an old tool I used "back in the day" to try and figure out where I was going and the most direct route back from a wreck dive:

http://members.aol.com/cbjpegs/scubanav.jpg

It worked like a pilot's E6B computer, rotating the dial to align azimuths under a fixed grid.

In general, I considered it good work if I could just hold an azimuth and hit the beach within 20 degrees of my intended arrival point. we didn't have modern "consoles" so we used wrist mounted compasses. Mine was on my left wrist. When trying to hold an azimuth I would extend my right arm straight ahead, then grab my right elbow with my left hand. That put the compass in front of my face. I would try and keep the compass needle centered while swimming forward with flutter kicks. It helped to find landmarks on the ocean floor by sighting a line off the extended right arm.

[itsanarmything]

I was taking correspondance courses online, and I came upon a Virtual Course that read "How to set up an Observation Post". Afterwards I took another small course on Land Navigation, and the thought came to me, Why not try to build a Virtual Land Navigation Course? After doing a few searches on here, I didnt see anything about the topic.

What does everyone think?

[The Reaper]

I was taking correspondance courses online, and I came upon a Virtual Course that read "How to set up an Observation Post". Afterwards I took another small course on Land Navigation, and the thought came to me, Why not try to build a Virtual Land Navigation Course? After doing a few searches on here, I didnt see anything about the topic.

What does everyone think?

I don't think it would be much like the real thing, but if you plan to game your way through the Q Course, that is an option.

TR

[QRQ 30]

Most, all training, navigation we did was by compass. You must learn to keep the compass perfectly aligned with your body. You don't need a console, in fact we didn;t have them in Germany. One arm is pointed straight to the frone and the forearm with the wrist compass is held at a ninety degree angle. I have had sucess just cupping the compass in my hands and keeping my shoulders square.
Currents can be a problem. We allowed one "porpoise" to surface very briefly like a porpoise to assess where you are heading. You then crab, or head an equal distance the opposite side of the target.

When the tide is right you could hold a heading towards the NIKE site at Flemming Key and be swept right around the island without realizing it. It is a compromise. Stronger swimming reduces the effects of current but increases air-consumption.

Like a pilot, you have to trust your instruments since many times thats all you'll see. Interestingly I learned to adapt land navigation from my experience underwater rather than vice versa.

BTW: I probably didn't answer RL's question as I am more military oriented. Sdiver gave good points for rec. diving. In rec diving I wasn't normally as concerned with distances as just returning to a given point, be it a new spot, one I had dived before or just returning to a starting point. As with strolling through the woods, total awareness of your surroundings is important..

[Ambush Master]

I was taking correspondance courses online, and I came upon a Virtual Course that read "How to set up an Observation Post". Afterwards I took another small course on Land Navigation, and the thought came to me, Why not try to build a Virtual Land Navigation Course? After doing a few searches on here, I didnt see anything about the topic.

What does everyone think?

There is NO WAY that a Computer Based "Virtual" Land Nav Game could do the DM Justice!!!

[QRQ 30]

There is NO WAY that a Computer Based "Virtual" Land Nav Game could do the DM Justice!!!

Where's the wait a minute vines, quick sand, and swamps in McColl and the black palm in Panama. Pooters miss all of the fun!!:D

[Aoresteen]

And now the bonus question:
What's the correct name for the little plastic thingies at the end of boot laces that keep the end from getting frazzled?


Aglet. :D

http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19980616

[x SF med]

Just fell into this thread - glad to see it resurrected.

Land Nav is an art as much as it is a science, each person has their own techniques - the point is getting to your destination, on time. the only real trick I can think of to help the FNGs is practice, practice, practice. go orienteering, go wandering in the worst areas you can think of, get out on the land nav courses - that's the only way you're going to get good.

[Team Sergeant]

Land Nav is an art as much as it is a science,

When you can look at a military or topo map and "see" the terrain in three dimensions in your head that's called "terrain association". (That's when land nav becomes an artform. IMO) Very important in a temperate environment. Not so important in a desert, on a large body of water or in a very thick jungle.

The best way (I've found) to nav in the dense jungle is pace count and dead reckoning. All the nav skills are important.

[7624U]

My Imput on Land Nav what a good subject

Keep compass away from metal even your gear and weapon can throw it off 20 deg or so.

BACK STOPS BACK STOPS BACK STOPS if you know you shouldent be crossing a river that's a good indication you have went to far.

Ive never been lost but I have been very confused for a few hours lol

Dont Walk in white out conditions stop and wait for it to quit snowing (Mountain Team's)

Stop Look Listen most the time you can hear traffic on roads or other indications to where you are.

The path of least resistance will make you 2 hours late.

[x SF med]

TS-
I fully agree, Land Nav is the money ticket - lensatic and a map are 2 items that will save your ass and your Team's. GPS is nice, but I think that the reliance on all the razzle-dazzle gear isn't going to do much good if you have to carry an extra ruck for batteries.

As to being able to terrain associate - again, practice - orient yourself in an unfamiliar area, look at the map, gauge the distances, see the real stuff in front of you, see how it's portayed on the map. Night Land Nav is dead reckoning, you need to hold a course, know your pace for the terrain, feel the differences, count streams, draws, hills.... Land Nav has always been one of my favorite non-shooting skills, I guess because it can be difficult until it becomes second nature. Plus it can give you a chance to relax at the Q - if you're good, accurate and quick - you can take a nap until the slowpokes get in - as long as there's not the one dumbass that gets complertely lost, the flare goes up and you have to be part of the skirmish line looking for his non-navigating ass.....

762-
Confused, or the map was misoriented due to circumstances beyond your control. Or, the map was old and the declination was incorrect. It could always have been the previous point's fault too - that non navigating SOB - you just had to fix it - he must have come from Ranger Bat.

[BMT (RIP)]

Anyone that went on the ole Branch FTX in the '60's will remember the 1936 CGS we were issued.
Each team was suspose to up date the map as they moved thru Pisgah Nat'l Forest. Some did some didn't.
Ask QRQ 30 about the maps of Laos he was issued. They were old French maps that hadn't been up dated since Christ was a Cpl. :D

BMT

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

If you can't navigate you can't lead.

[x SF med]

If you can't navigate you can't lead.

Oh, I see a Ranger joke in hiding here. [restrain yourself].

COL Jack, if you can't navigate, you tend to be lost in the woods, you might be in the lead, but you go around in circles.

[7624U]

TS-


762-
Confused, or the map was misoriented due to circumstances beyond your control. Or, the map was old and the declination was incorrect. It could always have been the previous point's fault too - that non navigating SOB - you just had to fix it - he must have come from Ranger Bat.

Non navigating SOB More like Dont listen to reason and hold up till dawn when we can see something, I got talked into driving on and walking all night lol come to find out if we would have stoped where I wanted to stop we would have just have to walk 1.2k up stream to our G-camp in Robin Sage.

Moral of the story if the mission is done and your walking home and your out of danger why not hold up in some brush till you have some light.
dont punish yourself when its pitch black out and the woods are thick as hell, walking around breaking every branch and maybe stumbleing into a enemy camp is always a consideration.
I would be interested in hearing any SOG guys storyes about land nav in the jungle. and did you always do it at night or was that risky cause the CONG traveled the paths at night ?

[BMT (RIP)]

Story Time!!! Story is to make a point on what Col. Jack posted.

"A" Co. 13th Arm'd Inf. Bn. at Graf 1958. Most of the Plt Ldr's were E-7's or old E-6's.
"A" Co. was getting ready for night movement to contact. CO told one of the enlisted Pl's to lead. A new LT ask if he could lead as he needed the practice.
After beating around the bush and running out of reason's not to let the LT lead, he gave in.

Off we went 17 APC's with a new LT in the lead. I was a 4.2" FO attached to the Co. We went by a rock formation and things looked good. Next thing you know we passed the same rocks again, after passing the same rock formation 6 times the CO stopped the Co. and ask LT. Brown if he knew his location. All the LT could say was "Sir there sure are a bunch of rock formations on this route that look the same." :eek:


BMT

[7624U]

Think i have one to top that lol

Iraq mission at 0'dark:30
Team is conducting search of local village with help of IraqI army
Im maning 50.cal and in good position to know where everyone is at so i can get to them

Terrain model was made for this village with roads briefed with colors and Houses numbered from North to South so if a team member should get in trouble all he has to say is road blue house 4 for instance and we know where that is at.

Im sitting there pulling security and ask anyone if they want my gun truck to pull closer to thier location, The village is half clear by this time.
I get a reply roger from one of my team mates (name and rank withheld)
Ok what is your location so I can move to it. Pause......................

Reply (Im in a House) :D

[The Reaper]

Recent reports from civilian instructors at training schools is that SF teams showing up have NO compasses with them at all.

When asked why not, they reply that they have GPS and don't need them.:rolleyes:

I sure hope that this is just a rumor. They are one good vehicle breakdown, battery problem, EMP, or satellite outage from being lost. They are going to wish then that they had the old school gear with them.

TR

[x SF med]

TR-
That is a sad state of affairs. I still use a lensatic and a silva as primary - and have a Garmin 76Map for backup. My primary compass on the boat is a floated magnetic compass. Call me a dinosaur - I'll take my low speed equipment all the time. Ask any of those guys if they'd ever think of going to the field without at least 2 knives, even if they've got rifles.....

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Oh, I see a Ranger joke in hiding here. [restrain yourself].

COL Jack, if you can't navigate, you tend to be lost in the woods, you might be in the lead, but you go around in circles.

As long as you have mentioned Ranger, let me expand on a minor experience I had as a Ranger student. I was given the "honor" of having a Thai prince as my Ranger buddy. He was a good guy, but he was also a prince and obviously at that time a State Department selectee for political reasons to attend our Ranger school in 1965. I am sure that this was a political driven decision, much like the Barretta was for landing rights in Italy. Anyway-the lad could not run-I had to carry him on my back for the 2 mile buddy run. He was afraid of heights and during the buddy evacuation rappelling exercise he damn near choked me to death hanging on to my neck. The hand to hand pit was pitiful and I asked for an instructor to be my opponent as I was killing this poor lad. In addition to hauling my sorry butt on the drown proofing class, I had him as an additional piece of equipment. He froze to death in the mountains, but did well in Florida. When he was appointed Patrol Leader he of course appointed me his assistant patrol leader. He took off on a leaders reconnaissance during the patrol after I pre-set his compass, gave him a complete discription of the terrain he was going to have to cross, and thought I had done everything I could for him to succeed in a simple one-leg, 400 meter dead reconing shot with a 50 meter offset to the biggest damn stream intersection in the area which would have allowed him to stop, do a right face and sneak and peek downstream to the target area. After 4 hours my PRC-6 started to crackle with a real faint voice, "Ranger buddy this is me, I lost". So I asked him to describe what he had done and he told me that he had taken out his compass, lined it up on the first tree in the distance, put it away because the moon was just beyond the tree he had shot his azimuth on and decided that it would be just easier to head towards the moon. Took me an hour to find him.

[x SF med]

COL Jack,
Sir, I can empathisize with that horror - in PLDC (why they made us go through it after we had already gotten BNOC in the Q, I'll never understand, we walked in with NCOPD with a 2 device...) each of the SF guys got a weak partner - mine just happened to be an overweight female clerk that had never been to the field before, ever. Ft Dix is not a difficult Land Nav course, but this SGT was worthless, I tried my damnedest to teach her what I could, and coached her till she could at least shoot an azimuth. The TAC pulled me aside prior to the testing phase, and told me I had to get my "team" through the course first both day and night. Day phase test - fairly easy, I let her run a few readings, forced her to move pretty quickly and we whizzed through the course, all 3 points and 3 km pretty quickly - first in, all points correct - she got to sleep for a while until the other teams showed up (funny, all of the teams with SF guys were in the first returns...). Night course - she freaked "I'm not going into the wooods (scrub pine and light undergrowth) at night, they said we can't use flashlights, and there are animals..." the TAC overheard and told me - the same rules applied - all points, first back - do what you have to do to make it happen. My 30 ft A7A came out of the Ruck, and I showed it to her and said - you can run the course like an NCO, or I'm strapping this around you, tying it to myself and dragging you through the brush at a dead run... Your choice." same thing as the Day phase, she got some practical experience, a little confidence, and we smoked the course. I found out later that night that the TAC had bet all of the other TACs that she could finish the course in the top 3 teams, and that they said "not even with an SF guy will she even finish the course". He won 8 cases of beer, I got a thank you. She actually learned a little Land Nav that she'd never use at her comfy desk at Ft. Belvoir.

[Aoresteen]

Recent reports from civilian instructors at training schools is that SF teams showing up have NO compasses with them at all.

When asked why not, they reply that they have GPS and don't need them.:rolleyes:



TR

WTF? My team's SOP was everyoe carried a SPARE compass & map (if we could get them :( ) in their E&E kit. Most of us carried Silva's as spares.

Tell me it ain't so!

[7624U]

Now that is a good land Nav story x_sf_med

Would have been even better if the TAC gave you 2 cases of beer for your trouble lol
Next question How pissed was she when you draged her threw the brush hehehe;)

[Aoresteen]

Anyone that went on the ole Branch FTX in the '60's will remember the 1936 CGS we were issued.
BMT

My team was in Area Study (1981/82) for our real world AO (somewhere in Eastern Europe). The Airforce had picked out our DZs and exfil sites by doing a map recon. We looked at the maps and noted that the map datum was from 1898 (yes 1898!). I imediately requested arial photos of the DZs. The Airforce initially denied the request but finally did them thanks to LTC Barber insisting on it.

When we got the photos back, guess what? Every one of the DZ sites picked by the Airforce had factories/buildings on them on them! It took us a long time to find satisfactory DZs and we updated the maps the best we could from the arial photographs.

Check the margin data! You never know how old the map might be.

[x SF med]

Now that is a good land Nav story x_sf_med

Would have been even better if the TAC gave you 2 cases of beer for your trouble lol
Next question How pissed was she when you draged her threw the brush hehehe;)

No dragging required - she figured her nails would get scuffed or her uniform dirty. No roads, minimal swampland - she wasn't happy, but again - she got about 2 hrs of sleep before the last teams came in - again - there was a team that got lost and the skirmish lines went out - can you imagine failing PLDC for land nav? Hi, I'm an NCO, I had to recycle in PLDC because I can't read a map, can I have my first rocker, please.

The field problem was a joke - they wouldn't give any of us 10th guys even squads for longer than they had to - really messed them up when we were building sand tables and building the field order at the same time as we were assigning people jobs and setting out rehearsal schedules. Imagine that? they gave all of the SF guys leadership positions at the same time, for one of the movement phases - that sucked!

[MtnGoat]

Funny to see whos posting on this thread.

For me, I have a compass other than the one that my gps has and my SUUNTO watch. Like its been said, Batteries go dead. How many people really change their SUUNTO watch Battery before they deploy? No one. Just like NVGs, the Battery goes out at the worst time. I'll save my back-up AA Batts for my NVGs over my GPS.

Yes this main covers dimounted, but mounted too.

[BMT (RIP)]

Short Story

We sent a driver back to Wildfleken base camp to pick up chow. Noontime was fast approaching and no chow. LT called our man and ask for location.

Location given: "Stuck in the mud and shifting gears".

BMT

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Short Story Wildfleken BMT

Remember it well. The only place in the world where you can have rain, snow, be stuck in the mud and breathe dust all at the same time while the sun is shinning and some wild boar is challenging your right to travel on the tank trail.

[BoyScout]

I really wish I had pace counters durring scouts. I usually missed one point durring nav courses by not going far enough. While I did learn how to use a map and compass (and shown how to use a second hand watch) from a WWII Navigator I never thought of them. When I did the course with him he used his watch to my amasement.

[Monsoon65]

I always thought that land nav was FM until I got to TACP school. The instructors were great and really taught a good course. I found out that I seemed to bear to the right when I finally got to my points, but I made them. And for some reason, I seemed to do better at night than during the day.

At survival school, they always warned us never to be paired with a navigator because they always got you lost. Of course, my squad leader was a female nav and she was my nav partner, but she ripped the nav course up and we did great.

When we do combat survival refresher in my unit, I always tell the kids to keep sharp with map and compass. The GPS is nifty, but batteries run out, or it could get broken/lost when leaving the aircraft. Ever time I deploy I always kept a spare compass in my pocket just in case.

[CSB]

MiG revetment, Berera, Somalia 1985
Note the item hanging from the dog tag chain.

[Aoresteen]

Here's an article on GPS Denied for Special Forces. Note that the author is mis-using the term "Special Forces" .

http://www.special-operations-technology.com/article.cfm?DocID=1611

[Aoresteen]

Oops, the link didn't work. Sorry! :o Try this one:

http://www.special-operations-technology.com/article.cfm?DocID=1611

[Kalich]

I have a nav disaster story , its a little sad but damn did I learn a lot that night , I was doing a recce course in Nanaimo British Columbia , and if anybody has ever been to BC they know how thick that bush can be especially at night , not to mention it was January so the rainfall was pretty solid , haha and I have to throw in the fact that it was logging season too so lots of fallen wet trees , anyways it was non tactical so i used my white light to bounce around in the bush crossing streams that were up to my neck in icy cold water , also a few swamps , I dont know how the Radio on my back didnt drown me I was doing well for time finding 3 out of 4 points that night on the last point i was more then halfway to my last point where i had to cross a very active river for the 4th time that night i braced myself to be dipped in it one more time as the underwater rocks were slippery as hell , sure as hell ended up on my ass chugging water , picked myself up crossed the 30 ft river and came out the other side to do a map recce , to my shock my map fell out in the damn river , I couldnt not believe it , all I had was my compass and the approx count of paces i had left till my destination , i went on for another 500 m to find that last point , as i did that i radioed in that i found all points but lost the map and needed directions to get back to the patrol base , instructors werent amused , needless to say I didnt get the pass that day and what kind of patrolman loses a map anyways , lessons learned the hard way gentleman and learned a lot about myself that night when i was down but not out

- tie off everything that is essential before any water crossing
- Pace beads are great for keeping count

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

To add to sdiver basically kick stroke. In this one must have a hundred meter line and swim it many times to develope a kickstroke average. it will alway be affected by currents and tides. Tank volume works for most of us because we swim enough to know about how far we can get on a full tank or two or Draeger. Pace count works best in harbors and such where it is necessary to do Dog legs to an insertion or target site. IE: 300 meters of XX azimuth 45 degrees right turn for 150 meters, then another Right turn for300 meters to a target. Pace in this cercumstance is critical. Blitz:munchin

[B219]

All variables matter in subsurface navigation, especially at night. Those who know, already know...

...but it does correlate with land nav. Compass, map, pace, orienteering, etc. ...it all matters. Proficiency in every aspect of the skills that are involved is what makes or breaks an individual at "crunch time"... when doubt seeps into the minds of those who are in "over their head".

(forgive the pun)

[f50lrrp]

Thanks Team Sergeant,

Here is a scenario. You are in a jungle or heavy forested area and you can not see terrain features at a distance. You shoot your azimuth, and you start moving out. The terrain differences are subtle and make it hard to know exactly where you are at. The distance on the map from point A to point B is ten km as a bird flies. Question is you have numerous elevation changes, how do you determine walking distance?

Thanks,
Mark

1968, West of Song Be, Inserted into a very small LZ at last light. Moved to a RON and moved again 20 meters away for the real RON. At first light, did a leaders recon and couldn't determine where I was. It was triple canopy with thick under brush every where. Found a stream with a fork about 100 meters away but the stream wasn't on my map sheet.

Waited until the noon contact and called the O1E. He flew circles around where we were supposed to be, but I couldn't hear him. I finally climbed a tall tree and called for an arty round. (WP 50 meter height-of-burst). Round was fired but not observed or heard.

I ordered another round with an add 1000 on the gun-target line. Luckily, I spotted this round way off to the South-East. I added 500 and shifted right 500. From the two azimuths that I shot, I resected and had my location.

I was almost two kilometers away from where I was supposed to have been inserted and across the fence. We spent four days moving back to RVN and an LZ. There is value in having a compass.

Called the O1E to see if he could get a location from my signal mirror. He was tied up on another team in contact.

[Jeff Randall]

About the only thing we use GPS units for during our domestic land nav classes is to measure / verify distance. Backstops, terrain association, handrails, and offset navigation are probably the best things a new nav student can learn. A word of real caution on GPS systems is to always check your topo map and set your GPS for the correct map datum. We failed to do this on one course and a student just had to "verify " where we were with his GPS. It showed we we were a few hundred meters north of where we KNEW we were. We forgot about the GPS and finished the course out with map and compass without a problem.

I have low jungle topo maps of South America that are just one big green blob with contour lines inches apart and maybe a river running through. No backstops, handrails and forget about any type of offset navigation unless you're headed towards the river. We will sometimes use a GPS to get an initial fix on the topo after coming upriver to our jump-off point then it's dead reckoning and pace count to get to our targets. Jungle can be some wicked stuff to navigate, especially secondary jungle. Give me the easy movement of Primary jungle any day.

[Scimitar]

Great stories.

Had to bump.

S

[BMT (RIP)]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zC4MI9f804

BMT