View Full Version : My first AR - sorta
It has been a good year and Santa's been pleased. I'm looking to buy my first AR. :lifter
I'm looking at the Franklin Armory (http://www.franklinarmory.com/index.html) XO-26 (http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS_XO-26.html) or the XO-26b (http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS_XO-26B.html).
Overall length is 27" with a 11.5" barrel and is classed as a pistol (I know I can CCW this under my long suit coat). It comes chambered in 5.56 NATO, 6.8 SPC, 300 Blackout, 7.62x39, and 450 Bushmaster. I will probably go ahead and setup a trust and then buy a suppressor for it.
I'm looking to maybe use it in some 3-Gun shooting (if I can ever get TS to come up for a cooking/shooting MTT). And as a 'car gun' - something that I can shoot from, at, or next to a car.
Does anyone have any experience with Franklin or these size weapons? Recommendations? :munchin
Looking for opinions on the four calibers for this size weapon, the right kind of ammo, the max effective range using open sights, the correct optic(s) for the stated purpose, the effect and correct suppressor to look at, effect against Kevlar, etc. . . . per caliber.
Thank you :D
It has been a good year and Santa's been pleased. I'm looking to buy my first AR. :lifter
I'm looking at the Franklin Armory (http://www.franklinarmory.com/index.html) XO-26 (http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS_XO-26.html) or the XO-26b (http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS_XO-26B.html).
Overall length is 27" with a 11.5" barrel and is classed as a pistol (I know I can CCW this under my long suit coat). It comes chambered in 5.56 NATO, 6.8 SPC, 300 Blackout, 7.62x39, and 450 Bushmaster. I will probably go ahead and setup a trust and then buy a suppressor for it.
I'm looking to maybe use it in some 3-Gun shooting (if I can ever get TS to come up for a cooking/shooting MTT). And as a 'car gun' - something that I can shoot from, at, or next to a car.
Does anyone have any experience with Franklin or these size weapons? Recommendations? :munchin
Looking for opinions on the four calibers for this size weapon, the right kind of ammo, the max effective range using open sights, the correct optic(s) for the stated purpose, the effect and correct suppressor to look at, effect against Kevlar, etc. . . . per caliber.
Thank you :D
I like 6.8. Surprised it isn't more popular.
7.62x39 would be more practical-don't recommend the other calibers.
That's a 50-100 yard gun, whatever you use, depending on optics. 11 inches won't give the powder time to burn...
If you're setting up a trust for the can?
You might as well go for the SBR and put a stock on that shorty..
:munchin
If you're setting up a trust for the can?
You might as well go for the SBR and put a stock on that shorty..
:munchin
That's why I ask these open-ended questions. Thanks JJ. :cool:
Can't think outside the box until your an expert in the box. ;)
Edit: ARUL-E Ultralight Entry stock (https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/ace-arul-e-ultralight-stock-entry-complete-stock-6.html)
I have three ACE stocks.
1)AMD-63 w/ ACE SOCOM folder
2)AMD-65 w/ ACE AKFX short
3)AA 50 Beowulf. w/ACE AKFX long
Good functional stocks. I don't mind the 'fixed' aspect.
I've seen the 26 for $900 and the 26b is $1080 list.
I only ask, because if your going to go thru the trouble of doing a trust for a can why not just do it all at once and do the SBR also? You could build yourself an SBR with parts from DSA arms for about $800.00. So with the 400.00 for your 2 stamps and the 800.00 for your rifle you would come out cheaper in the long run and also have a good running rig.
I think you should just buy an SBR and be done with it. I agree with cost considerations posted above. There are other issues if you happen to have the parts laying around to complete a SBR while you are waiting for your forms to return that could get you into some trouble. Its a situation that should just be avoided if you can. There are ways around it, by not having a short upper and stocked lower in the same residence. But finding clever ways around it is playing with fire. You could also wait to order parts until after your Stamp arrives, but that takes more time and money as well.
The other issue is that while this company did indeed get ATF approval for their configuration, it walks a very fine line between SBR and AOW and a so called pistol configuration. Something that I know not every LEO is going to understand. The other issue is that a ATF letter is really meaningless. It only means something to the manufacturer. ATF at any point could say that the letter does not count. They have done that before.
I see it as three options:
1. Buy a pistol that is a pistol, no forward grip and no way a forward grip can be installed.
2. Buy a premade SBR or SBR lower through a dealer, sit tight and wait for a Stamp.
3. Buy a stripped lower, have it engraved and submit your Form 1 and do nothing with it until it returns with a Stamp.
Finally,
If you are in the process of making a trust, take special consideration for the length of the name of your trust. One reason is that the ATF online forms only accept 50 characters. The other reason is for your purpose of engraving NFA items that you Form 1 in the future. There are ATF special rules to what can be shortened in the engraving and what can not. A shorter trust name is a smarter thing to do.
A thought on your Suppressor choice:
Choose a Can that is tough and tested. At 11 inch barrel length you are dealing with high pressures. The Mk18 Mod 0/1 and the COLT M4CQBR at 10.3/10.5 start to push the limits of pressure on the blast baffle of a Can. Putting cans on anything shorter than 10.3/10.5 (e.g. 7.5inch VSBR's) is really pushing your luck on the life of the Can. (This pressure curve is also highly variable based on caliber.)
What happens is that the constant pounding of that pressure on the blast baffle and first few baffles causes erosion to the interior of the Can. Because the powder does not have a complete burn, it is in essence a sand blaster, throwing that powder against the baffles and slowly cutting away on them. If you do not plan to shoot it a lot, you should be alright. It is just some other factors to consider.
The Reaper
12-22-2013, 11:32
Solid advice.
Especially the part about not trying to game the BATF.
TR
greentick
12-26-2013, 07:17
I like 6.8. Surprised it isn't more popular.
.... 11 inches won't give the powder time to burn...
6.8 is the 2nd most popular AR caliber after the original. It was intended for shorter barrels.
If you reload you can tweak the powder burn by choosing a faster burning powder.
Wealth of info (and opinions) at 68forums.com.
Well thanks for all the sage advice. Still in a thinking and info gathering stage.
I guess I might have implied skirting some laws and regulations - that was not my intent.
Have discarded the AR pistol/AOW idea and looking into proper suppressed SBR for the same purpose (registered and stamped).
Will be attending a local gun show this weekend where I can try and wrangle some folks that do Trusts. And bounce some ideas off of vendors.
Still trying to get a better idea on caliber (6.8 SPC, 300 Blackout, 7.62x39, and 450 Bushmaster) as to accuracy vs. cost of ammo and appropriate size barrel vs. range for said caliber/ammo - suppressed.
Thanks, your continued advice and ideas are appreciated.
BTW, I am Right-handed and newly LED w glasses. Wife is a novice, Left-handed and still LED w superior distance vision after cataract surgery.
The Reaper
12-26-2013, 15:47
Well thanks for all the sage advice. Still in a thinking and info gathering stage.
I guess I might have implied skirting some laws and regulations - that was not my intent.
Have discarded the AR pistol/AOW idea and looking into proper suppressed SBR for the same purpose (registered and stamped).
Will be attending a local gun show this weekend where I can try and wrangle some folks that do Trusts. And bounce some ideas off of vendors.
Still trying to get a better idea on caliber (6.8 SPC, 300 Blackout, 7.62x39, and 450 Bushmaster) as to accuracy vs. cost of ammo and appropriate size barrel vs. range for said caliber/ammo - suppressed.
Thanks, your continued advice and ideas are appreciated.
BTW, I am Right-handed and newly LED w glasses. Wife is a novice, Left-handed and still LED w superior distance vision after cataract surgery.
Allow me to put my preacher's outfit on and pontificate. Generalization follows.
I like the 5.56 SBR as a submachinegun. It will not do as much as most people think it will. The 16" carbine will save you some trouble and add 100 meters to the effective range of a 10.5" gun. For really long range shooting, an 18" like the SPR is better still.
The 5.56 is not a bad round, especially with the right ammo for the job. The heavy MK262 77 gr. with cannelure is probably the best, all around.
I like the 6.5, but the Grendel will not hold enough powder to push the bullet fast enough to do what it needs to. If the mag window was .25-.50 inch longer, you could have a longer case and do some long range magic with this round. OTOH, at that point, you would have a 6.5/.260 sturmgewehr round anyway.
Not a fan of the 6.8 either. Another round that looks better on paper than it does in the real world and can experience reliability issues.
The .300 Blackout has application as it is relatively easily suppressed and shoots subsonic rounds of some lethality. The conversion requires no mods to the weapon other than a barrel change, and it uses standard bolts and mags. The supersonic rounds are actually proving to be effective on deer and the like, giving roughly .30-30 or 7.62x39 performance. This could make sense if you already had a good 5.56 AR and wanted a quieter or larger game round.
The AK 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 work well in the AK platforms, especially for a mounted spray and pray application by a horde. The excessive cartridge taper and inherent accuracy problems will cause the round to be less reliable in the AR platforms and will not be very accurate with factory ammo either.
In an AR platform, the .450 Bushmaster, .499, and .500 rounds, and their ilk, are hard-kicking, limited-purpose rounds that are unnecessary for 99% of the shooters. Additionally, an AR platform would not be my choice for a dangerous big game rifle. If that is what you are looking for, just get a long mag Marlin, Browning, or Winchester lever-action in .45-70 and you will be more effective.
I would suggest that you start with a 16" upper AR in 5.56, and obtain other calibers and barrel lengths afterwards. The suppressor paperwork effort will prepare you for the SBR experience, should you need/desire one later.
Just my .02, YMMV.
TR
Peregrino
12-26-2013, 16:28
---------------- I would suggest that you start with a 16" upper AR in 5.56, and obtain other calibers and barrel lengths afterwards. The suppressor paperwork effort will prepare you for the SBR experience, should you need/desire one later.
Just my .02, YMMV.
TR
I have to second TR's pontification. Another point to add to your considerations - I've been waiting on the BATFE to process a Form 1 for an SBR for six months with no end in sight. As 35NCO has pointed out - the rules are whatever they want them to be, ignorance is no excuse, the penalties are onerous, and the consequences of running afoul of them are for life. Nothing like being hostage to a bureaucracy.
greentick
12-27-2013, 15:10
I assume you guys are talking about the 6.8spc that Remington botched the chamber on which resulted in them loading an anemic cartridge to prevent overpressure.
The current chambering is described as SPC2 and is much more capable. There are several magazine manufacturers with reliable feeding offerings (ASC, PRI, Cproducts Defense (CPD), and D&H). The PRI and newer ASC and CPD mags let you load to 2.300+ on the round COAL.
The round itself has offerings from 85gr to a 140gr offering by SSA using Berger VLD that is still supersonic at 1000m from a 16" barrel (http://www.ssarmory.com/6.8_spc_ammo_140gr_VLD_Berger.aspx). It is being used on deer and hog, (recent thread on 68forums http://68forums.com/forums/showthread.php?44322-90-Grain-Gold-Dot-Its-Whats-for-Dinner) fairly analogous to us bipeds, other than not shooting back, with good effect.
If you are wanting to run suppressed Bison Armory offers a barrel/220gr bullet combo that would meet that criteria, while providing supersonic performance that is better than the 300blackout. (http://bisonarmory.com/11-5-recon-subsonic-6-8-spc-stainless/)
I had considered doing a 300BO upper because of being able to run it suppressed but opted not to. If you are doing CQB or brush hunting at short range it seems to be fine. At midranges it seems to suffer. I don't have the money to buy one to just to see, I have to try to carefully sift the BS out of reviews. Anyhow, Savage dropped it due to lack of accuracy (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/04/foghorn/savage-scraps-300-blk-rifle/).
I do have a 6.8, have for years. I have not shot it extensively due to budget/time/range restrictions. I do reload and have accumulated enough brass to play with/ focus more on the 6.8. Don't take this post as me hating on the 300BO. It just doesn't do anything vastly better that I can't do with the 6.8. I would have loved to make the BO work as I already reload .223, and a few .30 calibers; already have all the components. Just didn't work out.
Narrowing in on what I think I want. 18 month long project. Staying withing the legal framework and minimizing need for tax stamps:
Looking at three ARs - pistole, carbine, and long rifle.
A single .30 suppressor for all three. Leaning towards Surefire.
Personal build AR pistol in 300BLK, gas operated. Along the lines of: https://www.mmcarmory.com/product-category/pistols/close-quarter-pistol/ Nice buffer assembly!
Still trying to figure optimal barrel length. 9+" for the 300BLK which is good as a sorta PDW, a bit long for a concealable. Doable with a 10rnd mag and Folding Pistol Grip. (http://www.themakogroup.com/product_p/agf-43s.htm)
Are single point slings permitted with pistols?
Personal build AR carbine in 300BLK, piston operated, 16" barrel. Along the lines of https://danieldefense.com/daniel-defense-m4-urg-v7-300-aac-blackout-no-sights.html (I know the link is to a gas upper).
Any advice on a lightweight hand guards? Not intending to load this up - just an angle fore grip and a barrel light.
Personal build AR rifle in 7.62x51, gas operated, 20+" barrel. 4x12 40+mm scope. Not intending to drive tacks at distance, just a little 'rough framing'.
Thank you all for your sage advice and instructional comments. Please continue.
greentick
01-11-2014, 10:38
I'm digging that grip. I'm building a 6.8 pistol that I may SBR in the future when I dig out of debt.
Vertical fore grips are out but the magpul afg is ok for a pistol if you want something up front.
Sounds like a good plan. Be careful of developing BRD:D. Everytime I start accumulating spare parts they seem to grow into another project.
The Reaper
01-11-2014, 15:36
Narrowing in on what I think I want. 18 month long project. Staying withing the legal framework and minimizing need for tax stamps:
Looking at three ARs - pistole, carbine, and long rifle.
A single .30 suppressor for all three. Leaning towards Surefire.
Personal build AR pistol in 300BLK, gas operated. Along the lines of: https://www.mmcarmory.com/product-category/pistols/close-quarter-pistol/ Nice buffer assembly!
Still trying to figure optimal barrel length. 9+" for the 300BLK which is good as a sorta PDW, a bit long for a concealable. Doable with a 10rnd mag and Folding Pistol Grip. (http://www.themakogroup.com/product_p/agf-43s.htm)
Are single point slings permitted with pistols?
Personal build AR carbine in 300BLK, piston operated, 16" barrel. Along the lines of https://danieldefense.com/daniel-defense-m4-urg-v7-300-aac-blackout-no-sights.html (I know the link is to a gas upper).
Any advice on a lightweight hand guards? Not intending to load this up - just an angle fore grip and a barrel light.
Personal build AR rifle in 7.62x51, gas operated, 20+" barrel. 4x12 40+mm scope. Not intending to drive tacks at distance, just a little 'rough framing'.
Thank you all for your sage advice and instructional comments. Please continue.
The current heat in lightweight handguards appears to be the Geissele MK 4. I love mine.
HTH.
TR
Iraqgunz
01-26-2014, 19:09
Both of those ARbortions from MMC armory are overpriced. I have built SPR rifles for much less and several SBR's for less than that with quality parts.
The .300 BO in a 16" barrel also makes very little sense. The round is still difficult to locate and at least a 1.00 a round. It was designed and optimized for use in SBR lengths like 8"-10" inches. The muzzle velocity drop off is not the same in .300 like it is with the 5.56 round. You should stick with a solid 5.56 rifle/carbine and then add an additional upper as time and funds permit.
You can also register the lower as an SBR on a Form 1 and use the e-File system. You can then use the same 16" upper on that lower and rotate them as needed.
Narrowing in on what I think I want. 18 month long project. Staying withing the legal framework and minimizing need for tax stamps:
Looking at three ARs - pistole, carbine, and long rifle.
A single .30 suppressor for all three. Leaning towards Surefire.
Personal build AR pistol in 300BLK, gas operated. Along the lines of: https://www.mmcarmory.com/product-category/pistols/close-quarter-pistol/ Nice buffer assembly!
Still trying to figure optimal barrel length. 9+" for the 300BLK which is good as a sorta PDW, a bit long for a concealable. Doable with a 10rnd mag and Folding Pistol Grip. (http://www.themakogroup.com/product_p/agf-43s.htm)
Are single point slings permitted with pistols?
Personal build AR carbine in 300BLK, piston operated, 16" barrel. Along the lines of https://danieldefense.com/daniel-defense-m4-urg-v7-300-aac-blackout-no-sights.html (I know the link is to a gas upper).
Any advice on a lightweight hand guards? Not intending to load this up - just an angle fore grip and a barrel light.
Personal build AR rifle in 7.62x51, gas operated, 20+" barrel. 4x12 40+mm scope. Not intending to drive tacks at distance, just a little 'rough framing'.
Thank you all for your sage advice and instructional comments. Please continue.
TacOfficer
10-17-2016, 16:29
The current heat in lightweight handguards appears to be the Geissele MK 4. I love mine.
HTH.
TR
Resurrecting the dead, because it was mentioned here.
I'm currently shopping a new hand guard for my duty carbine to lighten the load. Currently I have a mid length 16" with a DD Lite quad rail, flashlight and a FSB.
The Geiseele MK 4 caught my eye .
I would expect to get a low gas block if I went with the geissele and the length would be around 12-13 inches.
I also have concerns regarding suitability for work. Are these new hand guards durable/reliable and would they raise eyebrows if they need to employ it arises and my weapon comes into question?
Questions, comments and critisms are welcome and expected.
Peregrino
10-17-2016, 17:32
Resurrecting the dead, because it was mentioned here.
I'm currently shopping a new hand guard for my duty carbine to lighten the load. Currently I have a mid length 16" with a DD Lite quad rail, flashlight and a FSB.
The Geiseele MK 4 caught my eye .
I would expect to get a low gas block if I went with the geissele and the length would be around 12-13 inches.
I also have concerns regarding suitability for work. Are these new hand guards durable/reliable and would they raise eyebrows if they need to employ it arises and my weapon comes into question?
Questions, comments and critisms are welcome and expected.
I have several Geissele Mk 4 and Mk 8 M-Locks in 13" and 15" lengths. I'm currently using the 15" one on a rifle purpose built for 3-gun competition. If you've ever played or watched that "game", you're familiar with the cringe worthy abuse the rifle takes getting thrown around and banging into "stuff". The only other hand-guard I would consider at the moment might be Bravo Company's KMR (in spite of my ambivalence about the keymod accessory system). The Geisseles are robust, come packaged with the gas block and tools to install, and fit my meat-hooks; the BC is lighter and slimmer, nice for a stripped down go-fast gun. Both allow placement of accessory rails where needed (unlike other quad-rail hand-guards I have that can substitute nicely for cheese graters). Judicious shopping can find deals, especially on the Geisseles that make them price competitive with anything out there. My .02, YMMV.
TacOfficer
10-17-2016, 18:14
Peregrino,
Thank you for the reply. For me,t hat settles the question of durability.
For a 16" barrel is the difference between your 13" and 15" a matter of personal preference or is there a practical reason? I do like the "look" of the 15" on a 16" barrel, but "tacti-cool" is not a consideration for me.
I'll eventually have a cool gun for the safe, for now I'm just upgrading a light duty gun (with out the cheese graters). :D
Thanks again
TO
Peregrino
10-17-2016, 19:01
I went with 13/16 and 15/18. I grew up in the era when MP5s and MP5Ks were considered sexy. Given a rare instance of actually learning from another's f-up, I don't like getting my fingers too close to a muzzle. That and at some point I might want to swap the MB for a suppressor adapter. Since I use a SureFire, I need the extra barrel exposure for the telescoped portion. Again - YMMV.
TacOfficer
10-17-2016, 19:32
I went with 13/16 and 15/18. I grew up in the era when MP5s and MP5Ks were considered sexy. Given a rare instance of actually learning from another's f-up, I don't like getting my fingers too close to a muzzle. That and at some point I might want to swap the MB for a suppressor adapter. Since I use a SureFire, I need the extra barrel exposure for the telescoped portion. Again - YMMV.
As dumb as I am about to sound, I must admit, I have never considered the issue of getting ones fingers too close to the muzzle while firing the weapon. I've always had an FSB, so it didn't cross my mind.
Vis-a-vis the MB, our department is considering approving suppressors (I cannot even fathom why THEY will let us, I know why I would want one), so having the option for a SF suppressor is really appealing to me. I will have to do some homework here and elsewhere on the physical considerations of a can.
You are the man, :lifter