View Full Version : Civil War? What Civil War?
Southern Discomfort: U.S. Army seeks removal of Lee, ‘Stonewall’ Jackson honors
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/dec/17/robert-e-lee-and-stonewall-jackson-tributes-face-a/?page=1
"The U.S. Army War College, which molds future field generals, has begun discussing whether it should remove its portraits of Confederate generals — including those of Robert E. Lee and Thomas “Stonewall” Jackson.
Nestled in rural Pennsylvania on the 500-acre Carlisle Barracks, the war college is conducting an inventory of all its paintings and photographs with an eye for rehanging them in historical themes to tell a particular Army story.
During the inventory, an unidentified official — not the commandant, Maj. Gen. Anthony A. Cucolo III — asked the administration why the college honors two generals who fought against the United States, college spokeswoman Carol Kerr said...."
Streck-Fu
12-18-2013, 06:39
“[Lee] was certainly not good for the nation. This is the guy we faced on the battlefield whose entire purpose in life was to destroy the nation as it was then conceived. … This is all part of an informed discussion.”
Holy hell....:mad:
After reading the full article, IMO the headline is purposely provocatively misleading and inacurately reflects the context of the discussions described in the article.
Richard
After reading the full article, IMO the headline is purposely provocatively misleading and inacurately reflects the context of the discussions described in the article.
Richard
Does anyone else have (and are aware of) a tendency to try to figure out everything from an article's headline in the first 2 seconds, and then maybe read the article. Which leads to discovering that the article is not what the headline leads you to believe?
Matt Drudge may not always be the best source I'm discovering...I'm becoming aware of the need for more careful observation and evaluation of facts.
Damnyankee haters gonna hate.
After reading the full article, IMO the headline is purposely provocatively misleading and inacurately reflects the context of the discussions described in the article.
Richard
Gee, Richard I think I'll just let her speak for herself...
"...“I do know at least one person has questioned why we would honor individuals who were enemies of the United States Army,” Ms. Kerr said. “There will be a dialogue when we develop the idea of what do we want the hallway to represent.”
She said one faculty member took down the portraits of Lee and Jackson and put them on the floor as part of the inventory process. That gave rise to rumors that the paintings had been removed.
“This person was struck by the fact we have quite a few Confederate images,” she said, adding that the portraits were rehung on a third-floor hallway. “[Lee] was certainly not good for the nation. This is the guy we faced on the battlefield whose entire purpose in life was to destroy the nation as it was then conceived. … This is all part of an informed discussion.”..."
Third floor for now - out of sight out or mind - until the dialogue is over......
Having a debate over who and why (for what purpose) something was done or is being done doesn't mean the "U.S. Army seeks removal of Lee, ‘Stonewall’ Jackson honors" - and we don't know what floor the portraits were on in the first place or why the portraits were moved to a different hallway. I watched such rearranging take place in units and HQs and schools throughout the military in my career, and for many reasons.
There seems to be a lot of context missing from the article and any remarks made by the AWC spokesperson.
I think a more accurate headline would have stated something along the lines of "War College Debates Lee, Jackson Honors" vs "seeks removal of"...
MOO.
Richard
At the very least her comments are ignorant. My take was that Lee chose to stand with his state, Virginia. He was in my opinion a very principled person. I certainly would not judge him only on which side he served in the CW.
Streck-Fu
12-18-2013, 10:53
At the very least her comments are ignorant. My take was that Lee chose to stand with his state, Virginia. He was in my opinion a very principled person. I certainly would not judge him only on which side he served in the CW.
That was Lee's motivation. As well as most others at the time. Most people identified themselves as residents of their state first.....
Only after the Civil War did the sentiment of being Americans first become prominent.
Richard - her words - "..“[Lee] was certainly not good for the nation..."
There will not be much of a debate....
"Lee: The last years" by Charles Bracelen Flood is an excellent book about Lee. He was a great man and he was so human and so humble. Our government treated him and his family quite shabbily during and after the war.
Visit Washington and Lee University in Lexington, VA sometime, it is a beautiful place and while you are there walk up the road to VMI and see the horse that Jackson rode the night he was mistakenly shot by his own men. A lot of history in that area.
http://www.carlisle.army.mil/banner/article.cfm?id=3289
Spin
Well we know the General is connected to West Point.
The questions are now "Who is Ms Kerr?" and "Is Ms Kerr connected to West Point?"
If she is then somebody is .........
Snaquebite
12-18-2013, 14:58
Well we know the General is connected to West Point.
The questions are now "Who is Ms Kerr?" and "Is Ms Kerr connected to West Point?"
If she is then somebody is .........
She's the PAO at Carlisle...and comes off as "opinionated" to me.
Peregrino
12-18-2013, 21:05
I would be honored to find a place on one of my walls for the unwanted Confederate portraits.
The Reaper
12-18-2013, 21:43
Those statues would look great at the entrance to my drive.
I will drive up and get them myself.
Just say when.
TR
Golf1echo
12-18-2013, 21:57
In the context of The US Army War College were these Men not great American military leaders?
Maybe they should kick George Custer's portrait to the third floor, but then those lessons in history might be diminished as well ...
If you were to close your eyes and imagine the top 20 military leaders in our history it is likely Lee and Jackson would make it on many peoples lists. How can this be lost on Ms Kerr? Hopefully it is just a temporary organizational step and something was lost in translation...
If not perhaps she should find an interior decorating job elsewhere...
I saw a documentary about The Battle of 73 Easting, during the Gulf War, a couple of years ago. The CO of E-Troop of the 2nd ACR recounted how, after the battle, the Iraqi commander of the Republican Guard forces, that his guys captured, was placed in the American command Bradley. When they closed the door, the Iraqi saw a picture of Gen. Rommel taped on it. In English, he asked why Americans would have a picture of an enemy general in their vehicle. A Private in the Bradley replied something to the effect that if the Iraqi commander had studied Rommel he would not be in the back of an American Bradley.
Pat
If Lee, Jackson, Mosby, et al had been African homosexual communist yankees, they'd be worshipped in childrens' history books as the builders of the pyramids, inventors of manned flight, the telephone, TV, computer, the saviors of mankind, what have you.
As white Christian male Warriors, they're reviled. Even by the freaking Military.
Snaquebite
12-19-2013, 06:21
Letter from the Commandant
A Sincere note to our Alumni, friends, and all concerned:
Major General Tony Cucolo here, Commandant of the US Army War College. I’d like to address an issue that has come up based on a Washington Times web posting and article in its paper of 18 December 2013.
Even though last night's posting had a photo at the top of that article showing a picture of one of our entry gates with huge statues of Robert E. Lee and Thomas J. Jackson mounted on horseback on either side of the sign, and today's posting showed a dignified photo of Robert E. Lee at the top of the article, it might be misleading as to what is in question. For what it is worth, I must tell you there is only one outside statue on Carlisle Barracks and that is of Frederick the Great. There is no statue of Lee, there is no statue of Jackson; that picture is photo-shopped – I assume to attract attention to the article. We do however have many small monuments, mostly stone with bronze plaques, but those are for a variety of reasons. There are small memorials to the service of British units (during the French and Indian War), memorials of Army schools that had been based at Carlisle Barracks over the last two-plus centuries, memorials to Carlisle Indian Industrial School students and significant personalities of that period from 1879 – 1918, a memorial for US Army War College graduates killed in action since 2001 and more. We do not have any public memorials to the Confederacy, but we do have signs on the walking tour of the base that will tell you for a few days during the Civil War, three North Carolina Brigades camped on the parade ground and then burned down the post (save one building) as they departed on July 1st, 1863, to rejoin Lee’s forces at Gettysburg. We also do not have any large stand-alone portraits of Robert E. Lee or Stonewall Jackson.
So, no statues or big portraits, but a recent event here sparked the reporter’s and other public interest in the topic of the article, which I find makes a good point – for topics like this, have a thoughtful conversation before making a decision.
Here is what happened: a few weeks ago, while relocating his office to a new floor in our main school building over the weekend, one of my leaders looked outside his new office location and simply decided to change the look of the hallway. He took down, off the wall, a number of framed Civil War prints that depicted Confederate States of America forces in action against Union forces or depicted famous Confederate leaders. He did this on his own. There was no directive to “remove all traces of the CSA.” Since this is a public hallway with seminar rooms and offices, the sudden new look drew attention the following week. And since there was no public explanation of my leader’s action, some of my folks jumped to conclusions, even to the point of sending anonymous notes to local media. We have since attempted to clarify the action within our own ranks.
If it matters to any of you, you could walk into this building today, and see ornately framed paintings and even a few prints similar to the ones that came down off that hallway wall of Confederate forces and leaders mixed in an among countless other paintings and prints of the Army (and the other services) in action from the Revolutionary War through the current fight in Afghanistan. I must admit, there are in fact a large number of Civil War paintings, depicting both North and South. I can only assume one of the reasons there are so many is that we are barely 30 minutes from Gettysburg, home to many renowned artists, a few of whom have been commissioned by US Army War College classes of the past to capture some iconic scene of that conflict.
Finally, and with ironic timing, I also must tell you that I am in the midst of planning a more meaningful approach to the imagery and artwork that currently adorn the public areas on the three primary floors of The War College. There will be change: over the years very fine artwork has been hung with care – but little rationale or overall purpose. Just today, I left the “George S. Patton Jr. Room”, walked by the “Peyton March Room” and nearby hung a picture of a sharp fight in Iraq, 2003, right next to a Civil War print, which was near a series of prints honoring Army Engineers, and a few feet further hung a painting of the Battle of Cowpens. We can do better; we’d like our students, staff, and faculty to walk through a historical narrative that sends a message of service, valor, sacrifice, and courageous leadership at the strategic level.
But I will also approach our historical narrative with keen awareness and adherence to the seriousness of several things: accurate capture of US military history, good, bad and ugly; a Soldier’s life of selfless service to our Nation; and our collective solemn oath to defend the Constitution of the United States (not a person or a symbol, but a body of ideals). Tho se are the things I will be looking to reinforce with any changes to the artwork.
Much more information than perhaps you wished to know, but this topic has the ability to bring out the extremes of opinion and discourse, and I at least wanted the facts of our own activities to be known.
Respectfully,
Tony Cucolo
Major General, US Army
Wondering who this "leader" was....
ZonieDiver
12-19-2013, 13:48
I was watching a show about the battle of Gettysburg the other day and one Historian stated he thought Lee was the best General of the war on either side.
Though he may well have been "the best General of the war on either side" as stated, he sure didn't show it in that battle.
The Reaper
12-19-2013, 14:01
Though he may well have been "the best General of the war on either side" as stated, he sure didn't show it in that battle.
Concur.
Longstreet had a better plan.
TR
Longstreet
12-19-2013, 14:35
As white Christian male Warriors, they're [Lee, Jackson, Mosby, et al ] reviled. Even by the freaking Military.
Not in my classroom. I do not use the name 'Longstreet' merely because I live a few blocks from Yonge Street.
So Dusty, there is hope!
jaYson
Longstreet another bitter enemy of the nation. He too gave everything up for his ideals. The South had a lot of great leaders everyone of them an American.
"Born in Edgefield District, South Carolina, January 8, 1821, the son of a farmer, Longstreet spent his early years in Augusta, Georgia. On the death of his father he went with his mother to Somerville, Alabama. Corps commander James Longstreet made three mistakes that have denied him his deserved place in Southern posterity: He argued with Lee at Gettysburg, he was right, and he became a Republican. He entered West Point from Alabama, graduated in 1842, and was wounded at Chapultepec in Mexico. With two brevets and the staff rank of major he resigned his commission on June 1, 1861, and joined the Confederacy.
http://www.civilwarhome.com/longbio.htm
Snaquebite
12-19-2013, 15:01
This would probably really upset them.
26975
Hanging up over my fireplace.
The South had a lot of great leaders everyone of them an American.
http://www.civilwarhome.com/longbio.htm
IMO, Post of the Week
twistedsquid
12-19-2013, 17:28
Maybe they were just paintin' the walls.
Damnyankee haters gonna hate.
As usual, straight to the point.
SFOC0173
12-20-2013, 04:20
From 'American Thinker'
http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/12/erasing_southern_history_the_bonfire_of_the_portra its.html
From 'American Thinker'
http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/12/erasing_southern_history_the_bonfire_of_the_portra its.html
A good take on all this, I have always thought that the worst thing that ever happened to the South was Northern liberals.
This worrying about offending folks regarding the portrayal of the CW goes way back. In the early 90's the Herbert Hoover Presidential Library did a wonderful exhibit on the CW. For CW nuts it was an incredible layout. But they had made it a point to have only one tiny Confederate flag on display, I am talking a little flag. When I approached the museum director about this he told me that they had a lot of African American visitors and the thought was that if the South's flag were to be prominently exhibited they may be offended. How do you have a war without an enemy? I was offended but the guy did not care.
I have always thought that the worst thing that ever happened to the South was Northern liberals.
:lifter:lifter:lifter:lifter
I have always thought that the worst thing that ever happened to the South was Northern liberals.
True that.
First, they (NOlibs) screwed up some nice places like the Cradle of Liberty...spread west to pollute what is now Kommiefornia...they seem to multiply like damn tribbles. :D
True that.
First, they (NOlibs) screwed up some nice places like the Cradle of Liberty...spread west to pollute what is now Kommiefornia...they seem to multiply like damn tribbles. :D
Problem is, after slash, burn and occupy, they rewrite the history of the place.
They need to stay in their little blue pockets of hell and quit pesterin' us...
Problem is, after slash, burn and occupy, they rewrite the history of the place.
That's what this is all about, we have to erase that evil old past. Won't be long before there is no such thing as history after all what is the past?
That's what this is all about, we have to erase that evil old past. Won't be long before there is no such thing as history after all what is the past?
As long as there are FOGs, there will be a collective memory.
Why do you think they're concentrating so diligently on indoctrinating the kids into the religion of liberalism?