View Full Version : Trainers/warriors??
Gentlemen, because of the fact that I'm not a QP or BTDT, I don't post much and I'm usually satisified by just reading and learning from the threads on this forum. But I do have a question for you guys. How many of you got into SF because of the chance to work with and train host nation personnel? I'm asking because the majority of people who think about going SF are drawn to the highspeed, direct action stuff and no one usually comments on the Foriegn Internal Defense mission.
I'm currently stationed in Korea and will go through selection when I DEROS. Today we were tasked out to run a PMI/Qualification range for some Korean National Security Guards that work on the installation. These guys didn't speak english and my Hangul is limited, so a lot of nonverbal communication was used but we were able to get the job done. I apologize in advance if this post isn't relevant to the overall tone of this forum. Kuri, OUT.
brownapple
11-24-2004, 05:25
Had a direct effect on my interest. If I wanted to do DA stuff, I would have tried to get a Platoon in the Ranger Battalions.
Shark Bait
11-24-2004, 08:30
I was interested in the whole thing. DA is fun and the kind of action that attracts some people initially. Many people don't realize that one of the primary functions of an SF soldier is that of a trainer. I liked the idea of potentially training indigenous forces and leading them in combat in the enemy's backyard.
sandytroop
11-24-2004, 08:43
Shark Bait and I soldiered together, and he knows... I was always big on the indig / cultural element. I think anyone raised watching the Vietnam War on TV and reading the books that followed could hardly resist the idea of helping people build their own free country, one secure village at a time. I always believed (still do, actually) that no investment matches the blood of patriots, and if people suffer to build their own country, it really is their country and they have an interest in the success of that enterprise. If Americans are willing to do the same, stand with them, teach them, guide where it's useful, while respecting the local "way", it can build loyalties and international relationships that no Secretary of State can compete with. Wars eventually end; Guerrilla commanders become Army Generals, Underground operatives become Senators, and an SF Team can be the catalyst for that growth beyond just thinning out the bad guy population.
NousDefionsDoc
11-24-2004, 09:32
Good question. Good thread.
Shark Bait
11-24-2004, 09:41
Shark Bait and I soldiered together, and he knows... I was always big on the indig / cultural element. I think anyone raised watching the Vietnam War on TV and reading the books that followed could hardly resist the idea of helping people build their own free country, one secure village at a time. I always believed (still do, actually) that no investment matches the blood of patriots, and if people suffer to build their own country, it really is their country and they have an interest in the success of that enterprise. If Americans are willing to do the same, stand with them, teach them, guide where it's useful, while respecting the local "way", it can build loyalties and international relationships that no Secretary of State can compete with. Wars eventually end; Guerrilla commanders become Army Generals, Underground operatives become Senators, and an SF Team can be the catalyst for that growth beyond just thinning out the bad guy population.
Extremely well put Sandytroop!!
Having participated in both DA as a warrior and Mobile Training Teams as a teacher I would have to say that I received more satisfaction in performing the mission of a trainer/ teacher. The concept of force multiplication is one of my favorite topics when explaining to the uninformed the basic mission of an ODA. I have applied that concept (FM) to many situations in my life outside of the military as well.
Gentlemen, thanks for you input!
Basenshukai
11-28-2004, 22:08
I am currently in the middle of the FID chapter of my "A Full Company of Men" work. I have been posting updates to it. You can find it in the 18A section of this forum. Take care.
BAS SENDS
EOM
mffjm8509
11-28-2004, 22:29
I went through the course as a SSG in 93-94 timeframe. At that time I was tired of training with my guys, post cold war, with no real emphasis or impact on anything in the world. Essentially it was a 9-5 job with no real production. I decided to either get out or to try something where my effort would have an impact immediatley on those I was working for/with.
I believe that FID is the vehicle by which we can conduct DA today in most areas, at least in my current theatre. We are trainnig both with specific elements that are prosecuting the results of targeting, and with conventional type indigenous forces that conduct routine operations. Either way, the way SOF is operational here is in a training/advisory role.
DA is fun, and you have to do it, understand the fundamentals and be good at them in order to train others to do the same, but there is an satisfying element to taking and selecting raw talent, and helping them develope into a force capable of conducting complex urban operations.
just my .02
mp
joesfmech
07-09-2007, 22:32
We conduct military operations "by, with, and through" indigneous forces. I had young guys on my team on our last trip downrange that thought SF was all about looking good, wearing civlian clothes, and "hanging thier asses out there, looking to get it on". That was a real quote from a cherry on his first deployment.
You can put a 500 man infantry battalion in a sector, or a team of 12 SF operators and a 500 man Afghan Battalion. We are a force multiplier that allows the regular army to spend its resources elsewhere. Plus, and more importantly, we get the Afghans to fight for their country, versus Americans fighting for their (Afghan's) country.
I enjoy the DA operations, but it definitely is a vehicle for developing the expertise to teach DA to someone else, who has not had the benefit of a western education. And it is a benefit, as those who have trained indigneous people know. Different techniques are used. You eat the local food, sit with the soldiers and commanders, make friends, listen to their problems, and bond with them so when it comes time to enter a compound at 0345, and it is you and 100 of them, you have a reasonable chance that they will be with you and not indifferent or against you.
Some guys want to wait on the helopad until the missions are handed to them, then go out an execute. I had one such guy on my team. In shape, good shooter, didn't get it.
That has been my SF experience, and I would not trade it for anything.
Scimitar
07-10-2007, 02:25
I'm asking because the majority of people who think about going SF are drawn to the highspeed, direct action stuff and no one usually comments on the Foriegn Internal Defense mission.
I am only a guy with an 18x contract yet to ship to BCT,
But for a while there I was assisting with a rudimentary pre-ship training program for 18x guys being piloted by USAREC (18X-DESaP-Program)
Had the pleasure of calling a lot of pre-ship 18x guys and just talking with them; gauging where they where at; touching base with them.
From my subjective point of view there where two types of 18x-er.
1. The guy who had just walked into a recruiting office either to enlist as ‘what ever’ and had been 'sold' on 18X, or the guy who had heard about the 'high speed' Special Forces and thought it sounded cool, thinking that it was a bit like SEALs or Rangers; all DA and everything.
2. The guy who had looked into it, and read some stuff, and done at least a bit of research; who had perhaps started looking at SF for the above reason, but had soon realized that SF is definitely 3D, and had realized what they generally do the most of....FID...and had grown to appreciate it.
When I asked most guys which of the 5 (now 7?) SF missions most interested them, it was the FID / UW, not so much the DA. Many quoted the Vietnam / Montagnard type literature out there.
It felt to me that the second guy was more informed and more motivated and probably more likely to be better prepared for selection then the first guy.
But that's just my unscientific opinion FWIW.
In short, it felt to me that a lot of the better prepared guys (mentally / physically) where very interested in the FID / UW angle of SF.
out
Typically I lurk, but I thought that this might be of some interest.
I'm a cadet at VMI, contracted and seeking an Infantry slot (because DA appeals to me) after I commission, and I would like to put in my SF packet (because FID appeals to me more) when the time comes,. I just returned from ROTC Leadership Development and Assessment Course (now most crappulently named "warrior forge," but I prefer the term LDACistan).
I was pleased to see that when we went to the "field," a lot of emphasis was placed on cultural awareness and promoting the right kind of interactions with the "locals." We were learning to conduct Bi-Lats and the like.
While I may gripe about the fact that they still train cadets like the Russians are ready to roll through the Fulda Gap any day now, and the A1s we train with were manufactured during Vietnam, I feel like the folks on high have at least started to see the importance of the FID stuff and that "big army" has gone so far as to insert it into cadet training.
Just nice to see that steps are being made towards winning what is, IMHO, a far more important mission than (the still necessary) booting and shooting at this stage in the game. Looks like "big army" is taking more notes from SF than what sweet gear to buy from Ranger Joes ;)
Jack Moroney (RIP)
07-20-2007, 05:31
Typically While I may gripe about the fact that they still train cadets like the Russians are ready to roll through the Fulda Gap any day now, and the A1s we train with were manufactured during Vietnam, I feel like the folks on high have at least started to see the importance of the FID stuff and that "big army" has gone so far as to insert it into cadet training.
Just nice to see that steps are being made towards winning what is, IMHO, a far more important mission than (the still necessary) booting and shooting at this stage in the game. Looks like "big army" is taking more notes from SF than what sweet gear to buy from Ranger Joes ;)
Well I will chalk up your observations to youth and exuberance, but FID is not the "the far more important mission" it is the right mission for helping a country fight and defeat an insurgency. The other missions, roles, and functions have not gone away and not have decreased in importance. Those skills are still needed and are needed to address the threats calling for their implementation. The worse thing that the Army can do is concentrate on one and only one of its missions at the expense of all the others. The Pfrench tried it with the Maginot Line and got their butts kicked. You need to have a balanced approach weighted towards the threats you face today and still prepare for those that you will face or expect to fact tomorrow. Wars are not won or lost by "big army" but rather by "big politicians". As to your comment about your AIs being manufactured by Vietnam, who do you think put FID back into the vocabulary and reminded the "big army" that all these recent relevations about FID were not lessons learned but mistakes revisited? Training cadets about conventional tactics using the Fulda Gap scenarios provides you with a base level of understanding of how and why things work. You cannot teach folks how to operate in a FID environment where you are going to build, train, employ someone else's Army unless you can get it established first as an effective force and then you can modify it to meet the FID functions and roles. FID functions require a multi-disciplinary and interagency approach, but the military's role in FID still includes Direct Action in some cases and Civic Action in others. As far as SF is concerned, all their roles and missions are adpatable to some degree in FID.
Surgicalcric
07-20-2007, 07:20
There are alot of guys who are here for the "CDI" factor.
During my time here in the SFQC I have had the opportunity to talk to a good many students, both in-service candidates and 18X's/REP-63's, and have found that an overwhelming majority of them have no idea what FID/UW entails. Yesterday I was speaking with a couple of the 18X's, who are going to Robin Sage, about different teams within an SF company and the two that interested most were DA and a SMU. When I asked why the answer seemed to always be, "why not, its cool." I find alot of my fellow students see FID as nothing more than being a Green Beret wearing Drill Sgt. I found this disturbing.
Again just an observation from this side of the fence.
Crip
I joined in '68 as a failed college student and wound up a Vietnam era version of an SF baby. They recruited in the Reception Station then.
What attracted me to SF and kept me there was what SF is originally and should still be about - UW. I wanted to infil, train, and lead/advise resistance forces in denied areas. That is a long term commitment mission that DA oriented guys generally find they're neither suited for nor inclined toward. I spent the next 26 years doing DA and FID waiting for a true UW situation and had to watch on the side lines as you youngsters did it in A-stan. Good onya!
NousDefionsDoc
07-23-2007, 19:13
I agree. Those that can't or don't want to do FID should seek life elsewhere.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
07-24-2007, 05:00
I agree. Those that can't or don't want to do FID should seek life elsewhere.
I think if folks would start to realize that FID, the flip side of the UW coin, is a live fire scrimmage for the UW game with different nuances they would understand that it is giving them a great opportunity to prepare for the big game.
I think if folks would start to realize that FID, the flip side of the UW coin, is a live fire scrimmage for the UW game with different nuances they would understand that it is giving them a great opportunity to prepare for the big game.
It also sharpens those cross-cultural skills, oops, I mean rapport buiding. The skills and challenges are the same.
whitesnake
07-25-2007, 09:16
What attracted me to SF and kept me there was what SF is originally and should still be about - UW. I wanted to infil, train, and lead/advise resistance forces in denied areas. That is a long term commitment mission that DA oriented guys generally find they're neither suited for nor inclined toward. I spent the next 26 years doing DA and FID waiting for a true UW situation and had to watch on the side lines as you youngsters did it in A-stan. Good onya!
I agree. The primary SF mission was to "Train, Equip and Advise" in a UW scenario. A typical ODA should be able to train, equip and advise 2,500 guerrillas, establish and develop the area complex , organize and train an underground, organize and train an auxillary, etc, etc, etc.
shoe_leather
07-27-2007, 23:06
This is a great thread full of great answers. I am very glad I read it. It seems a lot of the news just focuses on (and glamorizes) the High Speed actions, and even though I try to stay informed about the other stories I was starting to loose faith that SF was really what I wanted. This thread re-solidified in my mind what SF is truely about.
Thank You guys very much!