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Riflecop1
11-04-2013, 16:57
There were women agents in the OSS and SOE. Should SF train women for a similar role today? Or is such a thing best left to the CIA should the need arise? I'm inclined to believe the latter but I'm interested to hear what SF veterans think.

I read the entire lengthy Women in Combat thread and I agree with the general consensus. But answers on that thread seem to be from the standpoint of women in infantry units or an ODA. Women agents are a different question. And one that has some historical precedent.

koz
11-04-2013, 17:19
There were women agents in the OSS and SOE. Should SF train women for a similar role today? Or is such a thing best left to the CIA should the need arise? I'm inclined to believe the latter but I'm interested to hear what SF veterans think.

I read the entire lengthy Women in Combat thread and I agree with the general consensus. But answers on that thread seem to be from the standpoint of women in infantry units or an ODA. Women agents are a different question. And one that has some historical precedent.

Apples and oranges.

What did the women in the OSS / SOE do? Mostly intel work. Some psyops, which they already do. We have the Cultural Support Teams, Psyop and MI detachments.

Beef
11-05-2013, 09:29
The OSS and SOE did train and insert several female agents into Western Europe in WW II. Notably, Violet Szabo and a one legged American woman, whose name I can't recall, along with many more. Most came to bad ends at the hands of the Germans. As did a large percentage of the male OSS and SOE agents. The way espionage is primarily done today is by case officers handling local assets. Less risk to the organization and better intel in most cases than a foreigner trying to pass themselves off as a local. Also, govt. orgs. have separate paramilitary branches to take care of sabotage and training indig forces. Not to say that there are no "deep cover" female agents, but if so it is as a result of long term planning and cover building. WW II was basically, "this is the best that we can do in a short time frame."

Surgicalcric
11-05-2013, 13:20
<<SNIP>>

Well said Brother...

sfmedicw9
12-22-2013, 07:08
The OSS and SOE did train and insert several female agents into Western Europe in WW II. Notably, Violet Szabo and a one legged American woman, whose name I can't recall, along with many more. Most came to bad ends at the hands of the Germans. As did a large percentage of the male OSS and SOE agents. The way espionage is primarily done today is by case officers handling local assets. Less risk to the organization and better intel in most cases than a foreigner trying to pass themselves off as a local. Also, govt. orgs. have separate paramilitary branches to take care of sabotage and training indig forces. Not to say that there are no "deep cover" female agents, but if so it is as a result of long term planning and cover building. WW II was basically, "this is the best that we can do in a short time frame."

My mother was one of those agents - although she was German she spent the entire war working for the BSC in Occupied Poland .

The sad thing for me was I never appreciated what they dealt with until her funeral. The characters that showed u and the stories they told put my puny experiences to shame.



As to the question of using women as intel officers - unquestionably yes. Anyone who says different is a big fat doo doo head

Guymullins
12-22-2013, 10:27
The Special Forces Club in London, is the only gentelmans club that admits women as members. I had lunch there earlier this year while visiting the UK and the walls were filled with the photos and biographies of the many women who worked in special forces during WW2. There is no discrimination between the sexes here and you will find an old biddy having a pint alongside a young operator any day of the week at the bar.

StRaTeGy_
12-27-2013, 13:23
The OSS and SOE did train and insert several female agents into Western Europe in WW II. Notably, Violet Szabo and a one legged American woman, whose name I can't recall, along with many more."

Maureen Patterson and several other women are well known for working for the OSS. I've read a couple books and it appears that during the overseas indoctrination and at the special training schools, the OSS and OSE had several amputated women who had very extensive regional and linguistic knowledge and had the chance of operating behind enemy lines.

longrange1947
12-27-2013, 15:57
All well and good guys, but they did not insert on the teams that later were the SF teams. They were used as assets and not fighters.

I have no problem with that, have a big problem with them being on the teams.

My 2 cents. :munchin

Flagg
12-27-2013, 16:33
I've never read about women serving on OSS Operational Groups or Jedburgh teams, nor Force Z, or Alamo Scouts.

And I'm not aware of any women being inserted in support of guerilla warfare operations against the Japanese in the Pacific Theatre of Operations.

I don't recall reading about women serving in UNPIK either.

I'm quite supportive of females serving in the military/SOF(bar certain roles), and I think they may have a very important role to play(in some places/cultures) in irregular warfare fought in the megaslums of the future.

I just don't see them able to hump a pack plus mission specific stores like a donkey on top of the team dynamic stuff covered repeatedly and well here and elsewhere.

IF the future fight becomes more urban and IF the future fight sees a greater merge between military and law enforcement in a nebulous paramilitary fight in the future favelas I can see roles for women in specialist roles bringing value to the fight, particularly if it's culturally relevant or value added to do so.

But I reckon that's just one slice(albeit a growing one) in a very large pie in what I would consider to be an active supporting role to SF missions.

Just my 0.02c

WHOOPS…..my bad fellas….I just saw answers are for QPs only…my apologies…..feel free to delete

Brush Okie
12-27-2013, 17:35
I've never read about women serving on OSS Operational Groups or Jedburgh teams, nor Force Z, or Alamo Scouts.

And I'm not aware of any women being inserted in support of guerilla warfare operations against the Japanese in the Pacific Theatre of Operations.

I don't recall reading about women serving in UNPIK either.

I'm quite supportive of females serving in the military/SOF(bar certain roles), and I think they may have a very important role to play(in some places/cultures) in irregular warfare fought in the megaslums of the future.

I just don't see them able to hump a pack plus mission specific stores like a donkey on top of the team dynamic stuff covered repeatedly and well here and elsewhere.

IF the future fight becomes more urban and IF the future fight sees a greater merge between military and law enforcement in a nebulous paramilitary fight in the future favelas I can see roles for women in specialist roles bringing value to the fight, particularly if it's culturally relevant or value added to do so.

But I reckon that's just one slice(albeit a growing one) in a very large pie in what I would consider to be an active supporting role to SF missions.

Just my 0.02c

WHOOPS…..my bad fellas….I just saw answers are for QPs only…my apologies…..feel free to delete

A good book on the subject is called "A Man Called Intrepid" It talked about the success and failure of the SOE, OSS etc including the women they used on Jedburgh teams. It talks about the US involvement in the war proior to 1941 and how old man Joe Kennedy MAY have been pro NAZI. It talks about how evidence shows he MAY have been a NAZI spy before 1941 but there is not enough evidence to say for sure.

http://www.amazon.com/Man-Called-Intrepid-Incredible-Narrative/dp/159921170X

Flagg
12-27-2013, 18:33
A good book on the subject is called "A Man Called Intrepid" It talked about the success and failure of the SOE, OSS etc including the women they used on Jedburgh teams. It talks about the US involvement in the war proior to 1941 and how old man Joe Kennedy MAY have been pro NAZI. It talks about how evidence shows he MAY have been a NAZI spy before 1941 but there is not enough evidence to say for sure.

http://www.amazon.com/Man-Called-Intrepid-Incredible-Narrative/dp/159921170X

Cheers!

Heard about that book, but never read it. I will chuck it on the purchasing queue. I must go through my 2 books on Jedburgh stuff again to see what I missed about women on the teams.

StRaTeGy_
12-27-2013, 19:08
A good book on the subject is called "A Man Called Intrepid" It talked about the success and failure of the SOE, OSS etc including the women they used on Jedburgh teams. It talks about the US involvement in the war proior to 1941 and how old man Joe Kennedy MAY have been pro NAZI. It talks about how evidence shows he MAY have been a NAZI spy before 1941 but there is not enough evidence to say for sure.

http://www.amazon.com/Man-Called-Intrepid-Incredible-Narrative/dp/159921170X

It's a pretty good and interesting book... I think the book was based on a TV mini series "A Man Called Intrepid" then through extensive research the author told the story of men and women who volunteered to participate in unconventional manners during WW II.

MR2
12-27-2013, 19:13
It's a pretty good and interesting book... I think the book was based on a TV mini series "A Man Called Intrepid" then through extensive research the author told the story of men and women who volunteered to participate in unconventional manners during WW II.

The book is copyright 1976 (http://www.amazon.com/Man-Called-Intrepid-Secret-1939-1945/dp/B0010Q9R4I/ref=sr_1_9?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1388192999&sr=1-9&keywords=A+Man+Called+Intrepid) and the TV mini-series came out in 1979 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078649/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1).

MtnGoat
12-29-2013, 14:07
I go with the Apples to Oranges .. Just as a agent is to a soldier.

To pull what women did in WW2 and like Beef pointed out are totally different. Do we have women working in different units and organizations. YES, but do the do what a SF, SEAL, or any SOF. Hell NO, they are different. CA, MISO and CST females all have their own roles within SOF. Yes they can get places and obtain things that us guys can't. Yet, are they the same as the units they support? Did the women of OSS do great things, yes. But were any of them a Jedburg?

Should women be apart of SOF? Yes, and they are. Should they be on a ODA? IMO your asking a question that has been answered and the US Military is already doing this at MANY different levels. Yet we have people in key positions that will not tell people this. We don't need more females, we have them in many different units already. Some can't be named, whiles others use that to their vices.

CST is my best example, no need for them. CA had this capability already, so we didn't need to create additional females in a new unit. We need to increase the female recruitment for into CA to meet this requirement. Why did USASOC and DA pulled from CA units to construct a female recruitment team to go to various university to recruit future officers to come into the military for this need? Then on top that, the female recruitment teams where made to go out to army units and post to recruit for the CST courses, just as they did for the civil affair course. Using female CA soldiers!

So if you're asking if we need female agents. The Army has them, in the MP Corps, as CID Agents, and many other positions and units.