View Full Version : Boyhood is not a mental illness
The Reaper
10-18-2013, 11:32
Fascinating.
TR
Boyhood is not a mental illness
By Marta H. Mossburg
All the employees of school districts on a witch hunt to expel and otherwise permanently punish young boys for shooting toy guns or forming their fists into the shape of a gun need to read “Back to Normal.”
The purpose of psychologist Enrico Gnaulati’s 2013 book is to argue how ordinary childhood behavior is often misdiagnosed as ADD, ADHD, depression and autism – frequently with life-long, disturbing consequences. But along the way he raises the taboo question of whether we “label boys as mentally unstable, behaviorally unmanageable, academically underachieving, in need of special-education services, or displaying behavior warranting school suspension just because their behavior deviates noticeably from that of the average girl?”
He adds, “In a sense, girl behavior has become the standard by which we judge all kids.”
He cites numerous studies showing that typical boy behavior – wrestling, rough games of tag, good guy/bad guy imaginative play that involves “shooting” – are condemned by preschool and elementary school teachers, the vast majority of whom are women, without the behavior being redirected appropriately to release boys’ “natural aggression.” Boys who play in the way noted above are not on a path to mass murder, contrary to what zero tolerance school policies suggest. For the vast majority of them, they are simply on the path to manhood. I wonder how many of us who recognize that truth still stifle our boys’ rough play or cowboy shoot outs out of fear of the new rules – reinforcing the capriciousness of regulations in young minds who will one day asked to make them.
Without changes to rigid policies and attitudes about what constitutes good behavior, we will be on a path as a society to generating mass confusion and depression in boys whose natural tendencies are being relabeled as criminal traits or medical problems that need to be treated.
Read more at NetRightDaily.com: http://netrightdaily.com/2013/10/boyhood-not-mental-illness/#ixzz2i60LwXIl
Trapper John
10-18-2013, 11:42
The "Thought Police" takes on many forms. Just another example of that IMO.
He adds, “In a sense, girl behavior has become the standard by which we judge all kids.”
Hear, hear.
TrapLine
10-18-2013, 11:51
Thank you, Sir. I just sent this on as a reminder to the wife.
I'll give him a "Home Run" on that one.
But being a so-called Progressive is.
GratefulCitizen
10-18-2013, 13:08
Feed them plenty of phytoestrogens.
Pollute them with plenty of xenoestrogens.
Deny them saturated fats.
Feed them plenty of sugar to make them fat (raising aromatase levels).
Suppress and stunt the development of their natural tendencies.
Indoctrinate them with the attitude that fighting and/or violence is never justified.
Medicate or prosecute the ones who won't be suppressed.
Promote a culture where irresponsibility is equated with masculinity (discouraging achievement).
Herd animals are much easier to control when the males are castrated.
Herd animals are much easier to control when the males are castrated.
There's the rub.
lol ...and the libs wonder why the world has no respect for us, anymore.
Penis envy has progressed to the point to where a girl can get an addadicktome and nobody thinks she's misguided. (They better not-that's a hate crime.)
Boys ride broomsticks for fun.
The standard white male actor in TV commercials is a simpering fool, afraid of his wife/significant other/life partner-whatever she wants to call herself.
Heather can have two mommies, two daddies, one mommy and one daddy who used to be a mommy, or the reverse, and you better not think that's strange, either.
Wanna be cool for the ladies in today's society? Be a homosexual hiphopper.
Freaking Bush! :mad:
There's the rub.
lol ...and the libs wonder why the world has no respect for us, anymore.
Penis envy has progressed to the point to where a girl can get an addadicktome and nobody thinks she's misguided. (They better not-that's a hate crime.)
Boys ride broomsticks for fun.
The standard white male actor in TV commercials is a simpering fool, afraid of his wife/significant other/life partner-whatever she wants to call herself.
Heather can have two mommies, two daddies, one mommy and one daddy who used to be a mommy, or the reverse, and you better not think that's strange, either.
Wanna be cool for the ladies in today's society? Be a homosexual hiphopper.
Freaking Bush! :mad:
You need to get out of your cave a little more often. Your analysis of women needs ALOT of work. Maybe if you ventured outside your comfort area, you might find that there are more of us that are the antithesis of this, than the norm you seem to think we are.:rolleyes:
GratefulCitizen
10-18-2013, 20:07
You need to get out of your cave a little more often. Your analysis of women needs ALOT of work. Maybe if you ventured outside your comfort area, you might find that there are more of us that are the antithesis of this, than the norm you seem to think we are.:rolleyes:
:confused:
Not at all what I inferred from Dusty's post.
Not saying you're wrong, just saw something different.
Sounded like he was lamenting the lack of traditional male role models and the promotion of "male" role models which have not been proven to lead to stable, successful societies.
Sounded like he was lamenting the lack of traditional male role models and the promotion of "male" role models which have not been proven to lead to stable, successful societies.
Which are? :confused:
Richard
ddoering
10-18-2013, 21:00
Ward Cleaver, John Wayne, Steve McQueen, Charles Bronsan......
Ward Cleaver, John Wayne, Steve McQueen, Charles Bronsan......
And they "led" what society? :confused:
Representative of an "ideaized Hollywood society", perhaps, but...
Richard
GratefulCitizen
10-18-2013, 21:35
Which are? :confused:
Richard
There is a limit to how far inference can be extended.
My inference of Dusty's post might be incorrect, we'll have to ask him.
There is a limit to how far inference can be extended.
My inference of Dusty's post might be incorrect, we'll have to ask him.
What does it matter? You can't explain things to women. :D
afchic's always been a little sensitive about the chauvinism thang, and it's understandable, given the position she's attained in what was once a male-dominated society. But, since I'm not in the Air Force, I think I'll go ahead and speak my mind. ;)
Your take on my comment is almost completely accurate, however-I feel the same way about the appointments of certain women to positions of political power as I do about Affirmative Action; I think some horrendous mistakes were made.
I also think the emasculation of the American male by the press and the education and entertainment industries is in full swing and way out of hand.
An exception would be the hero-worship afforded certain sports figures and others who are lauded for spawning numerous children with different baby-mamas.
I also believe educators should allow boys to be boys and girls to be girls instead of doing what the OP discusses. Of course, I'll gladly ammend my views when the first NFL MVP trophy is handed out to a wench.
I can think about anything anyway I want to, still-right? Or did that get changed while I was huddled in my cave eating Bronto-burgers? :D
I'll put Mrs. Dusty up against any female in the categories of intelligence, capability, judgment, integrity and kindheartedness, and she would excell-but she doesn't feel she has to prove to the world that she's not only as good as me, but better.
She's just comfortable in her own feminine skin.
And they "led" what society? :confused:
Representative of an "ideaized Hollywood society", perhaps, but...
Richard
lol Richard, that comes across as just downright vacuous.
Was Bob Howard, Billy Waugh and Walt Shumate's society "idealized"?
lol This forum is getting a little bit too vogueishly gender-neutral for me.
Dusty, there are problems with how our current society sees what used to be regarded as normal "boy" behavior. There is an excellent book (published around 2000) by Christina Hoff Sommers entitled: The WAR AGAINST BOYS: How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men.
from the book description:
"When boys are discussed at all, it's in the context of how to modify their antisocial behavior--i.e., how to make them more like girls.
This book tells the story of how it has become fashionable to attribute pathology to millions of healthy male children. It is a story of how we are turning against boys and forgetting a simple truth: that the energy, competitiveness, and corporal daring of normal, decent males is responsible for much of what is right in the world. No one denies that boys' aggressive tendencies must be checked and channeled in constructive ways. Boys need discipline, respect, and moral guidance. Boys need love and tolerant understanding. They do not need to be pathologized."
Anyone interested in having a look at the book or its reviews can find them here:
http://www.amazon.com/The-WAR-AGAINST-BOYS-Misguided/dp/0684849577
Dusty, I see what AFChic was saying, but I concurred with GratefulCitizen's assessment.
TR, thanks for posting this.
My eight year old boy was diagnosed with ADHD, but I gotta say, his school and doctor have been great. He is having a hard time understanding the directions on assignments, he is very fidgety, unfocused, etc. No one has said to medicate him. They are giving him an afternoon snack, additional time on assignments, making sure his is clear on instructions, let him be the errand runner to the school office, etc. once he "gets it", he does very well on his assignments.
My neighbors (staunch Obama supporters with a Lesbian nanny) also have two boys. Their kids want to come play at my house because their parents don't want gun play, rough housing, etc. they come to my house to have Nerf gun battles, play with cap guns, good guys/bad guys, etc. their kids have gone home from my house muddy and dirty, and their dad gets them in the tub and clothes washed before the mom gets home. He is a former NFL player and a wimp when it comes to standing up to his wife.
The mom has put a ban on "guns" for their kid's birthdays, even Nerf guns. I got them Nerf guns anyway. Just try to return them over the howls of protest from your kids.
Luckily, the rest of the neighborhood is more like me.
ddoering
10-19-2013, 06:12
And they "led" what society? :confused:
Representative of an "ideaized Hollywood society", perhaps, but...
Richard
They were male role models plain and simple. They modeled what was then accepted male behavior. The boys that watched them grew up to lead societies. But you know this already.......:rolleyes:
Trapper John
10-19-2013, 07:58
Dusty, there are problems with how our current society sees what used to be regarded as normal "boy" behavior. There is an excellent book (published around 2000) by Christina Hoff Sommers entitled: The WAR AGAINST BOYS: How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men.
from the book description:
"When boys are discussed at all, it's in the context of how to modify their antisocial behavior--i.e., how to make them more like girls.
This book tells the story of how it has become fashionable to attribute pathology to millions of healthy male children. It is a story of how we are turning against boys and forgetting a simple truth: that the energy, competitiveness, and corporal daring of normal, decent males is responsible for much of what is right in the world. No one denies that boys' aggressive tendencies must be checked and channeled in constructive ways. Boys need discipline, respect, and moral guidance. Boys need love and tolerant understanding. They do not need to be pathologized."
Anyone interested in having a look at the book or its reviews can find them here:
http://www.amazon.com/The-WAR-AGAINST-BOYS-Misguided/dp/0684849577
Stobey- Great find! I think the author is on to something here.
And, BTW, Afchic, I'm calling foul on your last post.
TrapperFrank
10-19-2013, 08:15
I thank God above that I came along when I did. If I were a male in this era, the school authorities would have medicated/institutionalized me a long time ago. Back in the day, the teachers just beat the shit out of us if we got too rowdy. We learned what limits and boundaries were.
What does it matter? You can't explain things to women. :D
afchic's always been a little sensitive about the chauvinism thang, and it's understandable, given the position she's attained in what was once a male-dominated society. But, since I'm not in the Air Force, I think I'll go ahead and speak my mind. ;)
Your take on my comment is almost completely accurate, however-I feel the same way about the appointments of certain women to positions of political power as I do about Affirmative Action; I think some horrendous mistakes were made.
I also think the emasculation of the American male by the press and the education and entertainment industries is in full swing and way out of hand.
An exception would be the hero-worship afforded certain sports figures and others who are lauded for spawning numerous children with different baby-mamas.
I also believe educators should allow boys to be boys and girls to be girls instead of doing what the OP discusses. Of course, I'll gladly ammend my views when the first NFL MVP trophy is handed out to a wench.
I can think about anything anyway I want to, still-right? Or did that get changed while I was huddled in my cave eating Bronto-burgers? :D
I'll put Mrs. Dusty up against any female in the categories of intelligence, capability, judgment, integrity and kindheartedness, and she would excell-but she doesn't feel she has to prove to the world that she's not only as good as me, but better.
She's just comfortable in her own feminine skin.
Dusty, first and foremost, I read the article, and believe a lot of what it states is going on. My sister is an assistant principle and I hear stories about it all the time. Actually, I just about lost my mind when she put her son on ADHD meds, for many of the same reasons stated in the article. But he is her kid, not mine.
Although the article focuses on boys, it has been my experience that it happens with girls, just as well. Mostly little girls who are athletic in nature, and have a hard time sitting still.
As to your other comments: Yes I am sensitive to the chauvinism thing. In my career field I have had to work twice as hard as the guys to get where I am. I have had to put up with countless bullshit to prove my worth, when guys in the same position have been given a free pass because of their gender. I have seen too many good female officers leave the service because they just got tired of the bullshit. You may call them quitters, but in the end they had to decide for themselves if it was worth it. I am sure you would take umbrage with someone spitting on your boots, just because of your gender. Or completely ignoring your input on a given topic, etc.....
In the end, it worked out for me. See, too many people made the mistake of thinking I was just a pretty face with big a set of boobs. I must have gotten to where I was because of who I was sleeping with, not because I earned it. Luckily I was raised by a mother and father who instilled in me self confidence and drive. My dad also taught me early that I was entering a man's world and had better have thick skin if I wanted to excel. I also had some great mentors along the way who knew what I was capable of, and let me run.
The fact that you talk about female and black political appointees also speaks volumes as to how you view the world, that is, a white man's world. The fact is that political appointees are just that, political. Very few of them are given jobs based on their background and experience, or how well they perform in their jobs. They are given those appointments due to the amount of money they donate to political candidates, doesn't matter if they are black, brown, white, yellow or purple. Man, woman or hermaphrodite. White males haven't proven to be any better, or worse than anyone else. I can think of quite a few in the past 3 or 4 administrations that should have never seen the light of day. But you go right on ahead in thinking that women and blacks are the reason the country is falling apart.
As to your final thoughts about your wife and femininity, and how that relates to me. You see women like me and think I am trying to prove I am better than men. You have a right to your opinion. But in the end, I am the way I am because I am my father's daughter. I have an older brother and two younger sisters. The four of us are very close in age (4 years and 3 days between oldest and youngest). I grew up fishing, hiking, camping, playing sports, because I was extremely close to my dad, and didn't really enjoy doing "girl" stuff. I was also very close to my Uncle who was a Ranger, so a lot of that guy stuff rubbed off on me at a very early age.
Plus there just weren't that many girls to play with growing up, besides my sisters. So if I wanted to play outside I learned to take a few licks playing tackle football with the guys. I doubt there are any of them from my old neighborhood that would argue that my hanging around "wussified" them.
I made a huge mistake in college, and I wound up being raped. I vowed that I would NEVER let anyone take advantage of me like that again. I learned how to take care of myself, which lead many men, like yourself, to think I had to be better than them, when in the end it was never a contest, simply survival. I was so off-putting that it took a man with a whole lot of self confidence, a lot of compassion, and a whole bunch of other traits to finally see me for who I was. It used to drive him crazy when we were first married that I was the way I was. But in the end he has come to appreciate it. We have been together for 13 years, and separated for about 7.5 years of that. He very rarely has to worry about whether I can take care of myself or not. I feel like it is my responsibility as a wife, and one who lives by herself a lot of the time, to do that, because it helps his state of mind.
So kudos to your wife. I am sure if you ever met me in person, you might come away with many of the same thoughts about me.
I guess this long diatribe is my way of saying, Dusty you don't know me. You don't know my life, you don't know my experiences, and you don't know why I am the way I am. Just as I don't know you, other than what you post here. And based off of what you post here, you seem to be a man who makes a whole lot of generalizations about people you don't know, based on your myopic view of the world, and then wraps your snarky comments in "pink" thinking that makes it ok.
Not everyone lives in the world you live in. Our experiences make us who we are.
If you are so unhappy about the way this country is turning, what are you doing about it, to make it more in the image you would like?
And Trapper, I could really give a rat's ass what you think about my post.
They were male role models plain and simple. They modeled what was then accepted male behavior. The boys that watched them grew up to lead societies. But you know this already.......:rolleyes:
Again - were they and was it...or was it their hollywood idealized screen personas (Jim Young, Jake McCandles, Frank Bullitt, Paul Kearsey) to be viewed as some sort of wishful role model?
For example:
- Robert Young was a known alcoholic who suffered depression and attempted suicide.
- John Wayne was married three times and had a number of well publicized affairs, and biographers document that directors knew, because of his drinking habits, to shoot his important scenes before lunch because by afternoons he could be a mean drunk.
- Steve McQueen grew up in a terrrible family situation and ran with a youth gang committing petty crimes and spending time in Chino, was AWOL as a Marine and spent time in the brig, was also married three times, had an affair which ended with pregnancy and illegal (at the time) abortion, and was a known prolific drug user (marijuana and cocaine).
- Charles Bronson was also married three times and, after the highly publicized 1984 case of Bernhard Goetz, recommended publicly that people not imitate his idealized vigilante character of Paul Kearsey from the Death Wish movies.
Research has shown that young people tend to idolize screen and pop music stars and sports figures as role models, but that changes with maturity. Do the lives of such figures make good role models or do we seek to emulate their idealized agent-driven and scripted screen performance personas? :confused:
My father was and remains a strong male role model to me, as do the memories of the likes of QPs like Joe Alderman, Ernie Tabata, Ron Ray, Jack Holzhauser, Ron Shackleton, and Joe Lutz; Ray Gage (high school art teacher); Norman Furniss and Hugh Rogers (professors); Vernon Walters (ambassador); Tony Cornell (civics teacher and scout leader), and my three adult sons (who are strong, kind, thoughtful, committed young men and intelligent, participatory citizens).
As far as the original theme of this thread, one thing I saw as a teacher and principal, and still see today in the school systems around here, was a decided lack of strong male role models in general at the elementary school levels, and strong male role models who are teachers and not a coach of some sort at the junior high and high school levels. I have no answers for changing it, but when our children spend so much of their most productive waking hours in school and many elementary schools are being influenced to spend more time studying and allowing less time for playing (proven to be an important part of a young child's growth for many reasons) it can become a matter of concern.
My 'vacuous' opinion only - and so it goes...
Richard
An aside - our family last week on a trip to Scotland (oldest son, daughter-in-law, wife, youngest son, me, middle son) in the Great hall of Stirling Castle where our ancestral family shield is displayed (upper right window). My wife, at 6', is the shortest adult member of our family.
Utah Bob
10-19-2013, 10:34
Grow up. Be a man.
Get fired by Walmart for it. The pussification of America.
http://news.msn.com/us/wal-mart-offers-to-rehire-worker-fired-for-aiding-attacked-woman
- Robert Young was a known alcoholic who suffered depression and attempted suicide.
- John Wayne was married three times and had a number of well publicized affairs, and biographers document that directors knew, because of his drinking habits, to shoot his important scenes before lunch because by afternoons he could be a mean drunk.
- Steve McQueen grew up in a terrrible family situation and ran with a youth gang committing petty crimes and spending time in Chino, was AWOL as a Marine and spent time in the brig, was also married three times, had an affair which ended with pregnancy and illegal (at the time) abortion, and was a known prolific drug user (marijuana and cocaine).
- Charles Bronson was also married three times and, after the highly publicized 1984 case of Bernhard Goetz, recommended publicly that people not imitate his idealized vigilante character of Paul Kearsey from the Death Wish movies.
The role models are the characters not the actors who play them. It would be impossible to determine how many viewers the characters positively influenced. There must have been some, though, because, in the late ‘60s and ‘70s, they were vehemently attacked and the anti-hero character became the leading role model. How’s that worked out?
Pat
GratefulCitizen
10-19-2013, 11:11
Recognizing the problems associated with the suppression of testosterone-driven behavior is not the same thing as advocating for testosterone-driven misbehavior.
The opposite of dysfunctional is dysfunctional.
Boys don't grow up to be problems because their natural tendencies exist.
They become problems because their natural tendencies aren't properly channelled and disciplined.
The entertainment industry doesn't have much in the way of role models, not sure they ever did.
This had much to do with the removal of cable and internet from my house for a period of 4 years.
Always made sure to discuss with my children the themes portrayed in entertainment.
Concluded that the themes were, at best, amoral, and usually just garbage.
They have been counseled that life's problems aren't solved in 22 minutes, and answers to difficult questions (when found) are often not what you want to hear.
Most "entertainment" gets categorized as trivial amusement, not useful for much.
Exceptions can be found.
Sherwood Baptist Church has put out a series of films, the most recent titled "Courageous".
After previewing it, I had my kids watch it.
They were again cautioned that this was still entertainment, but I wanted them to contrast the characters and themes with what was seen in other entertainment.
Despite lacking the writing, directing, and acting quality of Hollywood films, it was well received by the kids.
Unapologetic in their religious themes, their main point was that there is no substitute for a strong father figure.
Every strong father figure was once a boy, and had to make the transition.
The sermon at the end of the movie summed the theme.
Many are offended or scoff at the religious overtones.
So be it.
A man speaks his mind.
http://youtu.be/T6MFLmXAGes
Trapper John
10-19-2013, 11:33
The opposite of dysfunctional is dysfunctional.
GC- I love that one...will be using it again often. :lifter
afchic, I believe a man should be a man and a woman should be a woman. That's all. Should start in boyhood and girlhood.
You're confusing my denouncement of Affirmative Action with racism on my part. The opposite is true. Affirmative Action is racism. It's one of the agendas that has removed the ambition to succeed from many black Americans.
I'm truly, seriously sorry you had a bad experience-some would say the worst- but don't take it out on all men, Ma'am; we're not all rapists.
ddoering
10-19-2013, 19:41
Amen!!!
It's not just the meds they hand out like candy to make the teachers jobs easier....You can talk about GTA, SAW and Chucky but God forbid you even mention guns. You cannot wear scarey Halloween costumes to school.
Dodge ball and kick ball are banned....you cannot throw a ball at anyone. Anything that allowed the release of pent up energy and aggression has been nixed
Last week parents of boys that play competitive soccer were informed their boys should stop using their skills at recess because not everyone has the abilities and it hurts some kids feelings....on a side note this is where my daughter picked the game of soccer and the desire to learn it.
I don't know how one can let girls be girls and women women if society is going to privilege masculine gender identity and pathologize those who don't toe the line (e.g. "penis envy").
In any case, I think Christina Hoff Sommers is a good example of why American conservatives should exercise the utmost discretion in quoting/referencing academics when discussing contemporaneous issues. That is, how does one square her nuanced criticisms of some variants of American feminism with her elegant Tweet on same sex marriage and her implied criticism of its opponents (https://twitter.com/CHSommers/statuses/390120196905902080)?
IRT the efficacy of the anti-hero in American mass popular culture, IMO it worked out rather well for Clint Eastwood and, for that matter, Charles Bronson and Steve McQueen.
As for the deleterious effect of affirmative action on American history, it remains a matter of speculation how the past would have unfolded if many of the framers had not insisted upon the three fifths compromise <<LINK1 (http://constitution.laws.com/three-fifths-compromise)>><<LINK2 (https://www.claremont.org/publications/crb/id.821/article_detail.asp)>>.
An exception would be the hero-worship afforded certain sports figures and others who are lauded for spawning numerous children with different baby-mamas.
Well, Tom Brady is one hell of a quarterback.
NurseTim
10-19-2013, 21:13
Afchic, I am a male in a female dominated world, nursing. In both phases of my training they tried to kick me out, failed both times obviously, and it was gender based both times. I am sorry for what you have been through.
It appears to me that you took Dusty's post and internalized it, maybe because of what you have been through that no one on an Anonymous message board could possibly know about you.
I believe he was commenting on the emasculation of the American male from his viewpoint, not yours.
I have witnessed it first hand as well as hear about it on the radio. It seems the NFL is in the process of banning the practice of any display post touchdown. No taking a knee, no spiking, no dance move, no display of victory. I have never heard of such an example of misandry.
Where does the excess estrogen go from all the women on the pill? In the toilet? Does the water treatment address this? Add to that the stew of other chemicals from all the other drugs we take.
GratefulCitizen
10-19-2013, 21:16
Last week parents of boys that play competitive soccer were informed their boys should stop using their skills at recess because not everyone has the abilities and it hurts some kids feelings....on a side note this is where my daughter picked the game of soccer and the desire to learn it.
Learned helplessness.
Denying kids the opportunity to overcome.
My father was the worst basketball player on the playground in the 6th grade.
So, he practiced.
As a senior in high school, he was an all-state player on a state-championship team.
I was the worst basketball player at camp in the sixth grade.
So, I practiced.
Made all-state senior year and led the state in 3-point shooting.
Started out in college on a basketball scholarship.
Was skinny and weak as a 16 year-old.
The girl I liked was my lifting partner in weight class and even had a better bench press.
So, I trained.
Took many years, but eventually I became quite strong.
My 13 year-old was the worst basketball player on the court in the sixth grade.
Told him the stories of his dad and grandpa.
He practices.
We'll see where this story goes.
Sports in and of themselves aren't really very important.
They do provide excellent opportunities for kids to learn how to persevere and overcome.
The lessons learned are of great value when actual difficulties are encountered later in life.
Trapper John
10-20-2013, 06:57
It's not just the meds they hand out like candy to make the teachers jobs easier....You can talk about GTA, SAW and Chucky but God forbid you even mention guns. You cannot wear scarey Halloween costumes to school.
Dodge ball and kick ball are banned....you cannot throw a ball at anyone. Anything that allowed the release of pent up energy and aggression has been nixed
Last week parents of boys that play competitive soccer were informed their boys should stop using their skills at recess because not everyone has the abilities and it hurts some kids feelings....on a side note this is where my daughter picked the game of soccer and the desire to learn it.
Agree completely. How are our kids (boys and girls) supposed to learn their limits and discover their true abilities if not through failure? Yeah, failure hurts on many levels - that's not the point. The real lesson is in learning how to deal with it.
Yeah, males of the species are aggressive - nature designed it that way. That's the hunter/gatherer thing. Don't mess with 165 Million years of experience perfecting the design. It's that way for a reason - it f'n works so don't try to fix it.
GratefulCitizen
10-20-2013, 07:49
Yeah, failure hurts on many levels - that's not the point. The real lesson is in learning how to deal with it.
"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."
-Michael Jordan
Yeah, males of the species are aggressive - nature designed it that way. That's the hunter/gatherer thing. Don't mess with 165 Million years of experience perfecting the design. It's that way for a reason - it f'n works so don't try to fix it.
God paraphrased your theory in a few verses in The Bible, TJ-good job, Bro! ;)
Entire quote.
This post is so metro.
Trapper John
10-20-2013, 08:37
God paraphrased your theory in a few verses in The Bible, TJ-good job, Bro! ;)
Isn't it interesting how we can start from two different points of view, me from the natural laws and you from Faith, and we arrive at the same conclusions? In Science we call that independent confirmation. ;)
Isn't it interesting how we can start from two different points of view, me from the natural laws and you from Faith, and we arrive at the same conclusions? In Science we call that independent confirmation. ;)
Concur, Bro. :cool:
Hey, I wonder what they called it before Science came into being? ;)
Concur, Bro. :cool:
Hey, I wonder what they called it before Science came into being? ;)
Common sense?
Trapper John
10-20-2013, 09:04
Common sense?
:D Or curiosity?
Common sense?
:D
Of course, the Amazons might have disagreed. ;)
Agree completely. How are our kids (boys and girls) supposed to learn their limits and discover their true abilities if not through failure? Yeah, failure hurts on many levels - that's not the point. The real lesson is in learning how to deal with it.
Yeah, males of the species are aggressive - nature designed it that way. That's the hunter/gatherer thing. Don't mess with 165 Million years of experience perfecting the design. It's that way for a reason - it f'n works so don't try to fix it.
When I was in school way back when, ALL my friends and most of my classmates would have been considered in need of Alteration in the present day....yet few if any of us were on ADHD meds. Back then Boys were allowed to play rough games and throw balls at each other at school. We were more apt to fight over a disagreement (or hit someone in the head with a ball in Gym) than visit the Guidance Councilor over a disagreement. And no matter what the faculty generally let the parties 'get it out of their system' prior to interceding and sending you to the Principals Office.
We were even allowed to carry pocket knives at school.
Sometimes I wonder if this effort to stop violence in schools has actually had the reverse effect and has actually increased the chances and level of violence.
The ADHD meds I am all too familiar....My son had learning difficulties, teachers at school mentioned to my wife that our son showed symtoms of ADHD....my son was then diagnosed with the 'Symtoms' of ADHD and 40mg of Focalin and 50 mg of Straterra is how every morning begins for my son. The only reason he is on the meds is to calm him down so that he has a better chance of learning.
But it is difficult to tell if the meds actually help because he is on a IEP and they continually lower the bar to meet whatever benchmarks.
My son was born DOA due to lack of oxygen, was brought back to life and spent 7 days in a Level 3 NICU. His brain was damaged because of the lack of oxygen and he doesn't process information like most kids do.
He may exhibit symptoms of ADHD. but probably doesn't have ADHD imo.
Maybe it was the right thing, maybe not. But the one thing I am pretty sure of is that ADHD meds will not assist him in learning how to work around his problem and/or grow out of it.
Every once in awhile he misses a dose and I get to a see the excited, fun loving kid that has been masked by the the drugs.
When I was in school way back when, ALL my friends and most of my classmates would have been considered in need of Alteration in the present day....yet few if any of us were on ADHD meds. Back then Boys were allowed to play rough games and throw balls at each other at school. We were more apt to fight over a disagreement (or hit someone in the head with a ball in Gym) than visit the Guidance Councilor over a disagreement. And no matter what the faculty generally let the parties 'get it out of their system' prior to interceding and sending you to the Principals Office.
We were even allowed to carry pocket knives at school.
Sometimes I wonder if this effort to stop violence in schools has actually had the reverse effect and has actually increased the chances and level of violence.
The ADHD meds I am all too familiar....My son had learning difficulties, teachers at school mentioned to my wife that our son showed symtoms of ADHD....my son was then diagnosed with the 'Symtoms' of ADHD and 40mg of Focalin and 50 mg of Straterra is how every morning begins for my son. The only reason he is on the meds is to calm him down so that he has a better chance of learning.
But it is difficult to tell if the meds actually help because he is on a IEP and they continually lower the bar to meet whatever benchmarks.
My son was born DOA due to lack of oxygen, was brought back to life and spent 7 days in a Level 3 NICU. His brain was damaged because of the lack of oxygen and he doesn't process information like most kids do.
He may exhibit symptoms of ADHD. but probably doesn't have ADHD imo.
Maybe it was the right thing, maybe not. But the one thing I am pretty sure of is that ADHD meds will not assist him in learning how to work around his problem and/or grow out of it.
Every once in awhile he misses a dose and I get to a see the excited, fun loving kid that has been masked by the the drugs.
Mentioned my son earlier as having potential ADHD. Although my son' sentry into the world was not nearly as traumatic (and I am so sorry you and your wife had to get through that at such an occasion especially), my son was 9 1/2 lbs. at birth and took 25 1/2 hours to deliver. His APGAR was fairly low, but luckily he didn't need oxygen, and he required monitoring for a while due to his size, risk of diabetes, etc., although I didn't have gestational diabetes.
In any event, he is very hyper, but instead of mess, we are going the route of diet, lots of activity and organized sports, calming strategies when he is getting frustrated with his homework, etc., and letting him be a boy. It seems to be working, if your drs. And school counselor so would be willing to work with you. Good luck to you and your son.
Mentioned my son earlier as having potential ADHD. Although my son' sentry into the world was not nearly as traumatic (and I am so sorry you and your wife had to get through that at such an occasion especially), my son was 9 1/2 lbs. at birth and took 25 1/2 hours to deliver. His APGAR was fairly low, but luckily he didn't need oxygen, and he required monitoring for a while due to his size, risk of diabetes, etc., although I didn't have gestational diabetes.
In any event, he is very hyper, but instead of mess, we are going the route of diet, lots of activity and organized sports, calming strategies when he is getting frustrated with his homework, etc., and letting him be a boy. It seems to be working, if your drs. And school counselor so would be willing to work with you. Good luck to you and your son.
Diet, a good sleep pattern, a strict daily routine and finding something they enjoy doing. That is the winning combination I have heard from other parents.
But everyone must be on the same page to make it work.
GratefulCitizen
10-20-2013, 17:55
Where does the excess estrogen go from all the women on the pill? In the toilet? Does the water treatment address this? Add to that the stew of other chemicals from all the other drugs we take.
Plenty of stuff in the food supply to lower testosterone levels.
Soy, sugar, and polyunsaturated fats.
Difficult to find food that isn't loaded with one or more of those 3 ingredients.
Sherwood Baptist Church has put out a series of films, the most recent titled "Courageous".
After previewing it, I had my kids watch it.
Good movie. I like all of 'em-Flywheel, Courageous, and Facing the Giants. I didn't watch all of Fireproof, but I'm sure it was good, too.
Mrs. Dusty and I give copies of Facing the Giants away to pre-adolescent kids when we feel like we should.
The libs would have the world scoff at those values as outdated and uncool.
That's why the Country's going to hell in a handbasket, and the bottom of the basket's starting to smolder.
Yeah, males of the species are aggressive - nature designed it that way. That's the hunter/gatherer thing. Don't mess with 165 Million years of experience perfecting the design. It's that way for a reason - it f'n works so don't try to fix it.
The Left uses evolution to attack religious beliefs but discounts it when it concerns genetic realities such as differences in gender roles and abilities.
Pat
spherojon
10-21-2013, 13:05
To add to the list, I was told from someone that the school her son goes to wanted to label her son as a schizophrenic because he was making "gun sounds" and having pretend "wars" during recess...she pulled him out of school that day and is going to a private Christan school, who see no problem what so ever. A little unfair for a 7yr old with an imagination and likes to have battles with Megaton and all the other Decepticons. I'm sure if he was having a "tea party" during recess with stuffed animals it would be the normal...
PedOncoDoc
10-21-2013, 14:20
I think there needs to be a balance. As a boy, I was never a "boy" in the sense of acting aggressive, punching other boys, etc...I was always very non-aggressive. Never was (and still am not for the most part) into sports or anything like that. Such boys I think should be accepted just fine for who they are. I know for example that as a boy, I would have HATED having to do something like Boy Scouts for example. That said, I think that the political correctness has gotten way out of control in the opposite direction, where too many want to eliminate otherwise normal boy behavior from boys.
I do not believe though that boys need "John Wayne"-style role models to grow up with. A strong role model need not be the Man's Man stereotype. IMO, children need to be taught the values of hard work, personal responsibility, delayed gratification, etc...it seems though that you have the people who think the John Wayne types should be the role models for boys and dislike men who do not fit this image, while then you get the extreme opposite who viscerally hate the Man's Man stereotype and whose image of the ideal man is one "in touch" with his feelings, "sensitive," etc...basically very non-masculine.
Reminds me of the "Full House" episode where Jessie and Rebecca were arguing over what toys to let their twins play with. Rebecca was the more "liberal" one who wanted to boys to play with dolls, and was saying something along the lines of, "A boy who plays with dolls can grow up to be a fine man!" whereas Jessie wanted the boys to play with things like monster trucks and so forth. IMO, let them play with what they want. A boy playing with dolls I agree can grow up to be a fine man. But don't try to push it on him. If he wants to play with monster trucks and have pretend wars and all that, let him. And if he wants to play with dolls, fine.
My opinion anyway.
Do you feel a man must be willing to stand and fight against bullying/tyranny/oppression?
In my opinion, a man does not have to be (and rarely should be) an agressor, but he must be willing to fight if those who cannot protect themselves are being victimized.
I've seen the mother of one of my son's friends accuse her own son of wrong-doing when he came to her in tears and told her my son hit him. She told him that she knows for a fact that my son does not fight without damned good reason, so her son must have done something to deserve getting hit.
Having said that, my son hates fighting - he just loves his classmates and younger children more than he hates fighting. He also knows that one does not have to hurt another in order to win a fight.
Manhood, in my opinion, is taught starting in the earliest years - through example, shared experience and discussion - and is continuously honed until you die.
PedOncoDoc
10-21-2013, 14:48
Sure. But teaching that doesn't require "Man's Man" role models or behavior. Plenty of very effeminate girls and women can be taught this mindset as well for example.
It's quite possible that you and I have a different definition of a "Man's Man".
The Reaper
10-21-2013, 17:20
Genuine fathering is in short supply. Boyhood pussification and excessive mothering have continued for so many generations that we are now seeing the unfortunate effects everywhere.
Hear hear.
I wonder if liberation of the female had to result in the neutering of the male?
Is it a zero sum scenario?
TR
It is related, but maybe a bit off topic
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/14/education/14recess.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
No longer could they let off their youthful energy — pent up from hours of long division — by cavorting outside for 22 minutes of unstructured play, or perhaps with a vigorous game of tag or dodgeball. Such games had been virtually banned by the principal, Mark S. Johnson, along with kickball, soccer and other “body-banging” activities, as he put it, where knees — and feelings — might get bruised.
GratefulCitizen
10-21-2013, 22:17
Don't have scientific studies to back my opinion (though such may exist).
Just what I've observed.
Not convinced that testosterone drives naked aggression.
Testosterone drives aggression when a man feels he has been wronged.
The problem lies in what constitutes the perception of "being wronged".
This is where culture/subculture and upbringing matter.
Some cultures stress respecting defined boundaries and minding your own business.
When a defined boundary is crossed, the "crossee" feels wronged and responds with aggression.
Some cultures stress hierarchy.
When the perks associated with a position are withheld, the person holding that position feels wronged and responds with aggression.
Some cultures are just the law of the jungle (you have "the right" to whatever you can take or keep).
The strong feel wronged if they are denied anything they want from someone weaker and respond with aggression.
Some cultures have complex "honor" codes.
If honor is offended, the one offended responds with aggression.
All of these also can involve "being wronged" by proxy.
Young boys are taught directly, by example, and through various games what constitutes "being wronged" in their culture/subculture.
Those perceptions will define the nature of their civilization when they are adults.
What are our boys being taught today?
:munchin
theis223
10-22-2013, 15:55
My dad used to tell me that the reason kids are turning into panzies these days is because they cant see beyond the flawed thought that everything should be fair.
I have taught/coached beginners and intermediate wrestling and gymnastics for the better part of 10 years now and the number one thing that keeps rearing its ugly head is this mentality that :
just because someone else can do something I want to do--I should be able to do it just as good if not better than them [im entitled].....but wait, I have to actually work at it? [that's not fair]
From my time as an athlete and then during my time teaching the sports I used to play in, I have observed the following:
1.) Participation trophies are a cop out for actually learning the life lessons’ sports or anything that someone has to sweat, think, or bleed for; are intended to inspire/develop.
2.) Participation trophies are IMO given simply for showing up, and by default not for representing all of the effort, sweat, blood, and tears that were given in the pursuit of that trophy, or medal, or plaque with their picture and a picture of their team on it.
3.) Kids eventually realize that the collection of accolades still sitting in a box in their parents basement were really worthless. This is only the case if they didn’t discover the value that was earned by getting the trophy in the first place.
My dad never let me keep those cheap plastic participation trophies I got from all of the years of wrestling, rugby, lacrosse, football, gymnastics, or debate. I only have 3 trophies on my bookshelf in my room. A 2nd place ribbon from the state qualifier for wrestling (lost honestly to my best friend that went on to be state champ, thats why I kept it). A 1st place medal for a rugby tournament, and a 1st place plaque from a lacross tournament. The reason those three and [I]only those three awards are still with me is because they actually mean something to me. They meant that i got the living shit kicked out of me but with enough practice, time, belief, and effort you actually can get things you want in life. You just have to be willing to go and get them. IMO this notion is lost on the vast majority of kids these days, both for the reasons that i have offered here as well as from reasons offered by others on this thread.
After coaching for as long as I have I can honestly say I now know why my dad never let me keep those unearned accolades. They were empty. They were intended to make us (the players/athletes) not feel bad because we lost. All we had to do was show up to get them.
When kids are taught that they only need to show up to get rewarded, I would opine that is one of the reasons all of the previous generations that came before mine, have lost much faith in both mine and the rest of the ensuing ones since then. [I showed up on Earth in the summer of 89’]
It started IMO with the giving of participation trophies, now its gotten so bad that the sports or opportunities where those trophies could actually be earned and learned from cannot even be played anymore. What kind of message does that say to my kids [read: the ones I coach, I have none of my own] or your kids, or any kid in general?
IMO the message has been “all you gotta show do is show up and YAY here’s something shiny for you and a pat on the back”
Its empty and its missing the point.
The question that I think needs to be answered is: what can we do about this?
After reading this thread I believe GreatfulCitizen summed up the best approach
Originally posted by GratefulCitizen
Young boys are taught directly, by example, and through various games what constitutes "being wronged" in their culture/subculture.
Those perceptions will define the nature of their civilization when they are adults.
The previous quote is IMO backed up by PedOncoDoc
Originally Posted by PedOncoDoc
Manhood, in my opinion, is taught starting in the earliest years - through example, shared experience and discussion - and is continuously honed until you die.
Team Sergeant
10-22-2013, 16:07
Having been raised by a pack of wild nuns I was taught to be nice and kind, until it was time not to be.
I thank Superman, Spiderman, The Rifleman, Batman and a few other for teaching me the difference between right and wrong and knowing when to monkey stomp someone because they just hit a girl. I got into many fights in school, but I never started even one.
Those days are over as mass media doesn't care about right and wrong, only money. MTV is the new norm for our children and anything goes. Being bad makes a whole lot more money than being good.
I still give toy guns to kids..... ;)
GratefulCitizen
10-22-2013, 20:06
Hear hear.
I wonder if liberation of the female had to result in the neutering of the male?
Is it a zero sum scenario?
TR
The feminist movement has served to put women at equal status with men.
Unfortunately, this was achieved by lowering the status of women to that of men.
Now, rather than being protected, they are given full opportunity to fight for their lives among men.
As equals.
A article on the subject: http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2012/12/lets-give-chivalry-another-chance/266085/
A good quote from the article:
A story from the life of Samuel Proctor (d. 1997) comes to mind here. Proctor was the beloved pastor of Harlem's Abyssinian Baptist Church. Apparently, he was in the elevator one day when a young woman came in. Proctor tipped his hat at her. She was offended and said, "What is that supposed to mean?"
The pastor's response was: "Madame, by tipping my hat I was telling you several things. That I would not harm you in any way. That if someone came into this elevator and threatened you, I would defend you. That if you fell ill, I would tend to you and if necessary carry you to safety. I was telling you that even though I am a man and physically stronger than you, I will treat you with both respect and solicitude. But frankly, Madame, it would have taken too much time to tell you all of that; so, instead, I just tipped my hat."
In my opinion as a young man the neutering doesn't stop at childhood but is carrying into adulthood as well.
GratefulCitizen's post about how men react to be wronged is a good example.
No longer can men act as men when we are wronged. If I am to get into a fight I now face arrest, possible lawsuits etc etc.
Men are no longer allowed to stand up for their honor but instead are forced to swallow their pride bite their lip and just take someone shitting on you, or face potentially life altering consequences.
Not to mention how you are viewed by society and even others in your life as the asshole even if you didn't start the fight and were just doing what was right.
I am only 25, when i was a kid we played with toy guns, shot real guns, hunted, fished, fought with each other but were fine the next day, convinced each other to do stupid and dangerous things because no one wanted to wuss out.
However, I think we all had times when we weren't interested in those things as much. We were babied too much sometimes looking back.
At the time it all just came natural to me, to act and behave how I did. It wasn't until I was older that I became interested in "becoming a man" and what it means to be a man. I still don't have all the answers on that front but I continue to improve every day. I think that's what it takes now, young men must be interested in becoming a real man.
apologies for the long winded post.
ZonieDiver
10-23-2013, 12:03
Is boyhood a 'mental illness'?
My mom was pretty sure it was. At least that's what she kept telling me. :D
Is boyhood a 'mental illness'?
My mom was pretty sure it was. At least that's what she kept telling me. :D
As the mom of two boys, I can honestly say that boyhood causes mental illness.
In mothers.
:D
Susan
Trapper John
10-23-2013, 15:09
As the mom of two boys, I can honestly say that boyhood causes mental illness.
In mothers.
:D
Susan
My son and his best friend were definitely the role models for "Bevis and Butthead" and that was my nick-name for them. But having raised 2 daughters as well - I have to say, I am convinced that when they were 14 some alien came down and occupied their bodies for the next 6 years.
It was like living locked in a closet with a wolverine.:eek:
As the mom of two boys, I can honestly say that boyhood causes mental illness.
In mothers.
:D
Susan
My two brothers and I had my mom hyperventilating in a paper bag to control her breathing and taking Librium to calm her nerves by the time we were teens.
We also have three sons and my wife refers to their teen years as her having to suffer from the effects of "testosterone poisoning" on their part.
Richard
Is boyhood a 'mental illness'?
My mom was pretty sure it was. At least that's what she kept telling me. :D
Mine arranged for an exorcism. :D
Pat
As the mom of two boys, I can honestly say that boyhood causes mental illness.
In mothers.
:D
Susan
Too true! I often find myself saying to my two, "what were you thinking?!" They are not even pre-adolescent yet. Eeeek!
But as TJ alluded to above, I would much rather deal with teenage boy issues, rather than teenage girls. If I had a girl, one of us probably wouldn't survive.
x SF med
10-24-2013, 15:05
As the mom of two boys, I can honestly say that boyhood causes mental illness.
In mothers.
:D
Susan
My mother had 3 in 3 years, before boys were reigned back...
she went grey before my Dad...:rolleyes:
We bled a lot, had stitches, shot things, used slingshots, fought each other, and for each other...:eek:
One became a Marine, One went SF, and one decided he had enough of the military after a Catholic Military Boarding School for 4 years... both my folks were AF - pilot and nurse...
I think we would have been killed or ridiculed if we weren't active boys in trouble and learning.... nowadays, notsomuch.
Too true! I often find myself saying to my two, "what were you thinking?!"
Let's face it. They aren't thinking. ;)
I love my dirty, skinned-up, dare-devil boys. I wouldn't have them any other way, even though their antics take a toll on my nerves. Just when I begin to think I'm feeding, housing, and giving first-aid to a pack of wild animals (wolverines, you say?), one of them will do something utterly out of character -- say a sweet word, or a perform a gallant gesture, or lend a helpful hand. Proving that there's a young gentleman in there somewhere.
I can't help but think that kids these days are sent to school way too early, before their bodies are ready to sit still, before their eyes are ready to focus on print, before their minds can really grasp the things we want to teach them. Earl childhood is being squashed into a box, when it should be allowed to run, climb, shout, and discover. Boys, especially, are not ready for school at age 5 or even 6. But by God, we'll give them a pill, make them zombies, and send them anyway.
The men here are proof that boys do grow up to become responsible, intelligent, funny, and productive members of society... It's one of the reasons I enjoy this place and it keeps me sane when boyhood chaos is the order of the day. Thanks guys!
S.
Team Sergeant
10-25-2013, 15:13
Let's face it. They aren't thinking. ;)
I
The men here are proof that boys do grow up to become responsible, intelligent, funny, and productive members of society... It's one of the reasons I enjoy this place and it keeps me sane when boyhood chaos is the order of the day. Thanks guys!
S.
Ha ha ha she called you guys "responsible and intelligent".....
(You know she's never been to a team party......;))
Let's face it. They aren't thinking. ;)
I love my dirty, skinned-up, dare-devil boys. I wouldn't have them any other way, even though their antics take a toll on my nerves. Just when I begin to think I'm feeding, housing, and giving first-aid to a pack of wild animals (wolverines, you say?), one of them will do something utterly out of character -- say a sweet word, or a perform a gallant gesture, or lend a helpful hand. Proving that there's a young gentleman in there somewhere.
I can't help but think that kids these days are sent to school way too early, before their bodies are ready to sit still, before their eyes are ready to focus on print, before their minds can really grasp the things we want to teach them. Earl childhood is being squashed into a box, when it should be allowed to run, climb, shout, and discover. Boys, especially, are not ready for school at age 5 or even 6. But by God, we'll give them a pill, make them zombies, and send them anyway.
The men here are proof that boys do grow up to become responsible, intelligent, funny, and productive members of society... It's one of the reasons I enjoy this place and it keeps me sane when boyhood chaos is the order of the day. Thanks guys!
S.
You read my mind. As mine are still young, I will need to reread your statement the next time I catch one of them about to ride a pillow down the stairs, or walk on the outside ledge of the stairs, or jump over the rail down to the foyer floor. Going to invest in hair dye now...
Ha ha ha she called you guys "responsible and intelligent".....
(You know she's never been to a team party......;))
<snort>
Guess there's no statute of limitations on boyhood behavior, eh? Men revert back often, especially if alcohol is involved. :p
S.
Team Sergeant
10-25-2013, 17:34
<snort>
Guess there's no statute of limitations on boyhood behavior, eh? Men revert back often, especially if alcohol is involved. :p
S.
HA! And you've never seen us on the demolitions range with thousands of pounds of explosives either! :D
The Reaper
10-25-2013, 20:18
<snort>
Guess there's no statute of limitations on boyhood behavior, eh? Men revert back often, especially if alcohol is involved. :p
S.
Someone hold my beer, and watch this....
That's how many good SF stories start. :D
TR
GratefulCitizen
10-25-2013, 22:25
I can't help but think that kids these days are sent to school way too early, before their bodies are ready to sit still, before their eyes are ready to focus on print, before their minds can really grasp the things we want to teach them. Earl childhood is being squashed into a box, when it should be allowed to run, climb, shout, and discover. Boys, especially, are not ready for school at age 5 or even 6. But by God, we'll give them a pill, make them zombies, and send them anyway.
Send/Sent most of my kids to a private Christian school.
The kids attending that school read much earlier and better than their public school counterparts, despite the shorter day.
Kindergarten and first grade only go 8 am to 11:45 am.
Even at that, there's time for a snack break and recess.
Second through sixth go 8 am to 1:45 pm.
They get snack break, recess, and a lunch break.
The short days/frequent breaks were developed through trial and error.
They found that it resulted in better learning.
Short days are the main reason enrollment isn't higher.
Many interested parents end up balking because they don't want to deal with the logistics.
It's a school, not a daycare center.
HA! And you've never seen us on the demolitions range with thousands of pounds of explosives either!
:D:eek::D (To quote Big Teddy.)
So, you're saying you can't take the boy out of the man? That the size of his toys just get bigger, louder, and more expensive? :p
S.
The kids attending that school read much earlier and better than their public school counterparts, despite the shorter day.
Which goes against conventional thinking. Some schools want longer hours and longer school years. And more homework. More isn't necessarily better.
S.
Trapper John
10-26-2013, 07:13
So is your avatar your attitude now to having the kids out of the house? :cool:
:D Yep.
mark46th
10-26-2013, 08:07
"Some schools want longer hours and longer school years. And more homework. More isn't necessarily better." Requiem
They want more time to teach tolerance, diversity and socialism. My wife taught for 30 years, she has a lot of friends who became administrators. Rarely do I hear them talk about teaching the kids to read and write...
InRe #80 and 82: "...where all the women are strong, all the men are good-looking, and all the children are above average." ;)
Illusiory superiority.
Richard
GratefulCitizen
10-26-2013, 09:35
InRe #80 and 82: "...where all the women are strong, all the men are good-looking, and all the children are above average." ;)
Illusiory superiority.
Richard
:confused:
Missing the point.
The point was the shorter days.
If longer days were more effective, that's what they would be doing.
:confused:
Missing the point.
The point was the shorter days.
If longer days were more effective, that's what they would be doing.
I think you missed my point, ergo my mentioning the two posts in lieu of your post alone.
Richard
GratefulCitizen
10-26-2013, 11:47
I think you missed my point, ergo my mentioning the two posts in lieu of your post alone.
Richard
The "illusory superiority" comment seemed pretty straightforward.
The private school isn't trying to outperform the public school in some sort of zero-sum contest.
They are just trying to find the most effective way to implement their ministry.
In Arizona, when kids go back into public school from private, they are subjected to tests to determine proper placement.
According to the state-administered tests, the state thinks the kids coming from this school are better readers (the state could be wrong...).
The state claims to want better outcomes, and often tries to achieve this through longer days.
Maybe longer days aren't the solution.
FWIW, I don't much care about when my own kids learn to read.
I care whether they learn to read.
(Who remembers or cares when they learned how to tie their shoes?)
Public schools have long hours, bizarre disciplinary rules, and pharmacological solutions which point towards a purpose other than education.
They seem more like daycare centers which enable longer workdays and greater workforce participation on the part of the parents (i.e. a larger tax base).
The natural tendencies of young boys usually create problems for daycare centers.
Illusory in what way? GC makes his points.
GratefulCitizen
10-27-2013, 14:30
Illusory in what way? GC makes his points.
My initial post contained a naked assertion.
Richard pointed at that.
Didn't catch it at first because I had context which had not been presented.
Just a limitation of the medium.
Can't always lay out all of the context and facts for every post.
Challenging naked assertions leads to better discourse.
FlagDayNCO
10-27-2013, 21:34
Hmmm... What If I spent the day out of the house drinking beer and enjoying life?