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gits
11-15-2004, 23:32
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041116/D86CNL1G0.html

U.S. to Probe Shooting of Wounded Iraqi

Nov 15, 10:56 PM (ET)

By STEVEN R. HURST

NEW YORK (AP) - A U.S. Marine shot and killed a wounded and apparently unarmed Iraqi prisoner in a mosque in the former insurgent stronghold of Fallujah, according to dramatic pool television pictures broadcast Monday. A Marine spokesman in Washington said the shooting was under investigation.

The shooting Saturday was videotaped by pool correspondent Kevin Sites of NBC television, who said three other previously wounded prisoners in the mosque apparently also had been shot again by the Marines inside the mosque.

The incident played out as the Marines 3rd Battalion, 1st Regiment, returned to the unidentified Fallujah mosque Saturday. Sites was embedded with the unit.

Sites reported that a different Marine unit had come under fire from the mosque on Friday. Those Marines stormed the building, killing ten men and wounding five others, Sites said. The Marines said the fighters in the mosque had been armed with rocket-propelled grenades and AK-47 rifles.

(AP) In this cropped image taken from pool video provided to the Associated Press by NBC News, a U.S....
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The Marines had treated the wounded, he reported, left them behind and continued on Friday with their drive to retake the city from insurgents who have been battling U.S.-led occupation forces in Iraq with increasing ferocity and violence in recent months.

On the video as the camera moved into the mosque during the Saturday incident, a Marine can be heard shouting obscenities in the background, yelling that one of the men was only pretending to be dead.

The video then showed a Marine raising his rifle toward a prisoner laying on the floor of the mosque but neither NBC nor CNN showed the bullet hitting the man. At that moment the video was blacked out but the report of the rifle could be heard.

The blacked out portion of the video tape, provided later to Associated Press Television News and other members of the network pool, showed the bullet striking the man in the upper body, possibly the head. His blood splatters on the wall behind him and his body goes limp.

Sites reported a Marine in the same unit had been killed just a day earlier when he tended to the booby-trapped dead body of an insurgent.

The events on the videotape began as some of the Marines from the unit accompanied by Sites approached the mosque on Saturday, a day after it was stormed by other Marines.

Gunfire can be heard from inside the mosque, and at its entrance, Marines who were already in the building emerge. They are asked by an approaching Marine lieutenant if there were insurgents inside and if the Marines had shot any of them. A Marine can be heard responding affirmatively. The lieutenant then asks if they were armed and fellow Marine shrugs.

Sites' account said the wounded men, who he said were prisoners and who were hurt in the previous day's attack, had been shot again by the Marines on the Saturday visit.

The videotape showed two of the wounded men propped against the wall and Sites said they were bleeding to death. According his report, a third wounded man appeared already dead, while a fourth was severely wounded but breathing. The fifth was covered by a blanket but did not appear to have been shot again after the Marines returned. It was the fourth man who was shown being shot.

A spokesman at Marine Corps headquarters in the Pentagon, Maj. Doug Powell, said the incident was "being investigated." He had no further details, other than to confirm the incident happened on Saturday and that the Marines involved were part of the 1st Marine Division.

The CNN broadcast of the pictures used pixilation to cover parts of the video that could lead to public identification of the Marines involved.

NBC's Robert Padavick told members of the U.S. television pool that the Pentagon had ordered NBC and other pool members to make sure the Marines identity was hidden because "they (the military authorities) are anticipating a criminal investigation as a result of this incident and do not want to implicate anybody ahead of that."

In New York, NBC spokeswoman Allison Gollust said the network did not broadcast the prisoner being shot because of the "graphic nature" of the video.

Im sure some of you have seen the video, whats your take on this incident?

Tuukka
11-16-2004, 10:22
"apparently unarmed"

They have fired from ambulances, shown the white flag, played dead and then fired...

Max_Tab
11-16-2004, 10:28
This right here is a very sensitive issue. American soldiers are held to a higher standard than almost any other military in the world. And we are expected to follow the Geneva convention no matter what the enemy does. You can't get much intel from a dead prisoner, and if the enemy finds out we execute prisoners then no one will want to surrender. Saying all that, we all know that urban combat is some of the ugliest fighting there is. These guys had been fighting for a long time probable with little sleep, and I'm sure they've seen some friends wounded or killed. Plus the fact the enemy booby traps there wounded and dead, makes for a bad situation. I'm not going to judge the kid because I wasn't there, and with all the external situations ie. he had been wounded the day before, and he had seen a friend hurt from exactly that situation, so I don't think anything should happen to him. I think his biggest mistake was lack of Situational Awareness and doing it in front of a reporter.

Team Sergeant
11-16-2004, 10:34
This right here is a very sensitive issue. American soldiers are held to a higher standard than almost any other military in the world. And we are expected to follow the Geneva convention no matter what the enemy does. You can't get much intel from a dead prisoner, and if the enemy finds out we execute prisoners then no one will want to surrender. Saying all that, we all know that urban combat is some of the ugliest fighting there is. These guys had been fighting for a long time probable with little sleep, and I'm sure they've seen some friends wounded or killed. Plus the fact the enemy booby traps there wounded and dead, makes for a bad situation. I'm not going to judge the kid because I wasn't there, and with all the external situations ie. he had been wounded the day before, and he had seen a friend hurt from exactly that situation, so I don't think anything should happen to him. I think his biggest mistake was lack of Situational Awareness and doing it in front of a reporter.

Well said Max_Tab, I could have not put it better.

TS

Guy
11-16-2004, 10:53
I think his biggest mistake was lack of Situational Awareness and doing it in front of a reporter.

Reporters look for that news breaking story. It doesn’t matter to them the events that lead to this one particular incident.

NousDefionsDoc
11-16-2004, 10:54
It will be investigated, the competent authority will make a determination, the appropriate action will be taken. That is all there is to it.

Sacamuelas
11-16-2004, 10:58
Here is the problem I have with the whole thing being broadcast onto TV in the initial period after the incident. We only get the facts that the jackleg reporter wants to convey. He doesn't know the entire story, or most importantly the circumstances leading right up to the incident. Since he can't prove what the soldier said in his defense, he won't report it in the chance that it would be proven wrong or be accused of giving pro-American bias. Yet, he CAN prove that the terrorist is dead and was alive earlier. Then he proceeds to report about the Marine's prior injury and watching a fellow soldier getting killed. This actually gives anyone watching the report a potential "motive" for the illegal killing to the public. It makes it seem very logical to believe that this guy just snapped based on what the reporter included in the report.

I am not saying the guy didn't make the mistake... I admit to feeling the same ideas are running through my head as that so eloquently posted by Max Tab. I understand that individuals on our side could make mistakes too. I am just cautious to publicly agree or affirm any of the circumstances within the report. We are all aware of the almost anti-American bias that exists with out media concerning the potential for success or failure within Iraq.

From the report I saw, the story was portrayed that the poor, innocent unarmed and wounded terrorists was shot in cold blood by the pissed off Marine for payback. Yet, all the while the reporter admitted explicitly that the circumstances and actions of the terrorist immediately before the incident were not clear in fact yet. :rolleyes:

gits
11-16-2004, 11:07
I agree, I saw the video on tv and it also looked like the terrorist had a blanket on him, I mean who knows what he could have had on him, booby traps were known to be on dead bodies and suchs, maybe the marine thought he had a booby trap on him.

NousDefionsDoc
11-16-2004, 13:57
BTW, this is another marksmanship issue. There should be no such thing as a wounded tango in the first place.

Guy
11-16-2004, 14:47
When four Americans were slaughtered, burned and hung from a bridge?

NousDefionsDoc
11-16-2004, 15:14
When four Americans were slaughtered, burned and hung from a bridge?

'nuff said Brother.

BMT (RIP)
11-16-2004, 18:29
WTF???? Kerry did the same thing and got a Silver Star!!!

BMT

GreenSalsa
11-17-2004, 08:22
And why is the Arab new services NOT broadcasting that footage too! Oh we will analyze to death the thoughts and body language and what was a threat or not a threat…but we give those freaks a PASS when it comes to slaughtering a blindfolded geriatric woman.

Sorry if it doesn’t make this doesn’t make sense but I get so p!ssed when I see our one sided media.

:mad:

brewmonkey
11-17-2004, 08:35
When four Americans were slaughtered, burned and hung from a bridge?

And where was it when those same Marines found the dismembered body of a women believed to be Margaret Hassan?

Bill Harsey
11-17-2004, 08:52
You guys said it for me.

The media is really failing, worse than I could have ever imagined.

flyboy1
11-19-2004, 15:52
Did not see this posted anywhere.....
Petition for the Marine (http://www.petitiononline.com/as123/petition.html)

May not help him, but certainly is gathering support for him. :lifter

QRQ 30
11-19-2004, 21:32
I guess I watch the wrong (or right) news and neglect the bad news. Almost everything I have seen is supportive of the shoot. In reality there has been less fuss about this than a shooting by police officers, especially of blacks. Do you all really expect "attaboys" from the Arabs?

The photographer was merely doing his job. He is employed by NBC therefore had no control over the footage, it isn't his. However in an interview on CNN he stated he regreted the publicity and also felt it was a good shoot.

The only serious questions posed were whether the terrorist was an EPW or enemy combatant. The overwhelming response is that he was not an EPW. Sometimes it seems we are dragging this out in a self destructive means. I guarentee you nothing will happen the the marine though he should be charged with stupidity. You talk of lives saved, but consider the lives that may have been said if he were sucessfully interrogated before shooting him.

One thing I would like to see to keep perspective:

We should show such films on a split screen alongside some Al Jazeera footage showing Terrorist atrocities.

Bill Harsey
11-19-2004, 21:43
I guess I watch the wrong (or right) news and neglect the bad news. Almost everything I have seen is supportive of the shoot. In reality there has been less fuss about this than a shooting by police officers, especially of blacks. Do you all really expect "attaboys" from the Arabs?

The photographer was merely doing his job. He is employed by NBC therefore had no control over the footage, it isn't his. However in an interview on CNN he stated he regreted the publicity and also felt it was a good shoot.

The only serious questions posed were whether the terrorist was an EPW or enemy combatant. The overwhelming response is that he was not an EPW. Sometimes it seems we are dragging this out in a self destructive means. I guarentee you nothing will happen the the marine though he should be charged with stupidity. You talk of lives saved, but consider the lives that may have been said if he were sucessfully interrogated before shooting him.

One thing I would like to see to keep perspective:

We should show such films on a split screen alongside some Al Jazeera footage showing Terrorist atrocities. QRQ 30, PLease quit making valid points when we have a good rant against the media going. Thinking on friday night causes pain.

QRQ 30
11-19-2004, 22:06
QRQ 30, PLease quit making valid points when we have a good rant against the media going. Thinking on friday night causes pain.

Hehehe!! I look at media as being like sportscasters. News is big business and sometimes they have to resort to hyperbole to make an otherwise boring game interesting, such as the election predictions.

:D :D

Bill Harsey
11-19-2004, 22:10
Good thinking, So when they say something dumb we just think of them as another washed up jock with a microphone. That actually helps.

Roguish Lawyer
11-19-2004, 23:37
Hehehe!! I look at media as being like sportscasters. News is big business and sometimes they have to resort to hyperbole to make an otherwise boring game interesting, such as the election predictions.

:D :D

I agree.

QRQ 30
11-20-2004, 07:16
Good thinking, So when they say something dumb we just think of them as another washed up jock with a microphone. That actually helps.

That's a good description of today's "military analysts/experts". :munchin

BMT (RIP)
11-20-2004, 15:17
http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=11260

BMT

QRQ 30
11-21-2004, 17:35
Folks: I have been there and experienced it. When you suddenly realize that everyone you may run across has the express purpose of killing you, sooner or later you take it personally. Mind set, fatigue, stress and many other factors come into play, but these are mitigating circumstances and don't alter the fact. I/we don't know what happened and I will with hold all conjecture. However, the military has an obligation to investigate the incident and determine what, if anything can be done to prevent it from happening again. This should not be a fault finding process on a personal basis but perhaps an attempt to correct and improve the system/training. To merely say: "War is hell" and sweep it under the rug will do more harm than good.

My Lai was mentioned in an article by Mendenhall (sp?). I was in country when the My Lai massacre happened and was every bit as irate as many on this forum. I said: "What the hell!! Combat is about killing ." I saw a rail road job in the making -- I thought. As facts developed it turns out that this was a planned operation - not one in the heat of battle. My opiniopn changed and now I am disappointed that Cali got only a figurative slap on the wrist. I believe the only time he served was under house arrest at Ft. Benning.