BSA - What about THIS!

[NousDefionsDoc]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041115/ap_on_re_us/defense_boy_scouts


quote:
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Military Bases Warned on Boy Scouts

1 hour, 7 minutes ago

U.S. National - AP

By MIKE ROBINSON, Associated Press Writer

CHICAGO - The Pentagon (news - web sites) has agreed to warn military bases worldwide that they should not directly sponsor Boy Scout troops, partially resolving claims that the government has improperly supported a group that requires members to believe in God.

The settlement, announced Monday, came in a lawsuit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union of Illinois, which says American military units have sponsored hundreds of Boy Scout troops.

"If our Constitution's promise of religious liberty is to be a reality, the government should not be administering religious oaths or discriminating based on religious beliefs," said ACLU attorney Adam Schwartz.

The Pentagon said it has long had a rule against sponsorship of non-federal organizations and denied the rule had been violated. But it agreed to send a message to posts worldwide warning them not to sponsor Boy Scout troops or other such groups.

The rule does not prevent service members from leading Scout troops unofficially on their own time, and Scouts will still be able to hold meetings on areas of military bases where civilian organizations are allowed to hold events.

The settlement does not resolve other ACLU claims involving government spending that benefits the Boy Scouts, such as money used to prepare a Virginia military base for the Boy Scout Jamboree and grants used by state and local governments to benefit the Boy Scouts, Schwartz said.

Attorney Marcia Berman, who represented the Defense Department, declined to comment on the settlement Monday. But Justice Department spokesman Charles Miller said the message that will be sent to bases represents "a clarification of an existing rule that DOD personnel cannot be involved in an official capacity."

The original ACLU lawsuit named as defendants the City of Chicago, the Department of Defense (news - web sites) and the Department of Housing and Urban Development. The City of Chicago settled, agreeing not to engage in official sponsorship of scouting activities.

[rubberneck]

This burns my arse. The First Amendment grants freedom of religion not freedom from religion. The founders of this country were, by in large, very religious men. The influence of religion can clearly be seen in our laws and customs. What the ACLU is doing to religion IMHO is quite Un-American. The removal of the cross from the LA County (or city) seal is just another example of how the ACLU is enforcing their particular anti-religious jihad. As if the Christian missions that were fromed in California had nothing to do with the traditions and history of the state.

I certianly hope the President can get enough common sense judges on the Supreme Court that they can put an end to this needless BS.

[Achilles]

IMHO seperation of church and state is critical. And as much as I fookin hate the ACLU they have a point. You know they are putting warnings on science textbooks about evolution just being a theory in some state (put in the context that it "may not" be true)s? I thought we were in the 21st century. :rolleyes:

It won't affect anything.... Troops will still sponsor the boy scouts, just on their own time. Best solution would be to modernize Boy Scouts and allow for freedom of religion.

[rubberneck]

I don't have a problem with the seperation between church and state but this BS with the Boy Scouts is out of control. How is interacting with a group like the Boy Socuts violating anyones first amendment rights. Its not like they are telling Muslin troops that they have support them.

Why are the boy scouts bad yet Congress has a Chaplin and each session is opened with a prayer? Why are elected and appointed officials sworn in while holding a bible? I would be the first person to say something if the government tired to prevent anyone from practicing their religion but why do we have to act as if religion doesn't exsist in society? Why can't the government acknowledge religion or religious groups and the good work they do without the ACLU having a heart attack?

And while I am on the subject being an atheist is not a religion. I get a little sick of atheists and agnostics claiming that their 1st amendment rights are trampled when the pledge is recited in schools. Why can you claim religious persecution if you don't believe in god or formal religion? Of all the very real issues the ACLU can chose to do something about they seem to pick the ones that have very little if any impact on our rights.

[brownapple]

IMHO seperation of church and state is critical. And as much as I fookin hate the ACLU they have a point. You know they are putting warnings on science textbooks about evolution just being a theory in some state (put in the context that it "may not" be true)s? I thought we were in the 21st century. :rolleyes:



I realize this may come as a shock to you, but it is "the theory of evolution".

[Kyobanim]

@ Rubberneck - The majority of founding fathers were Deists. They believed in a natural god, that took no real part in the lives or fates of humans. The deists version of 'god', is not the same as the christian god.

According to Websters dictionary: "One who believes in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, basing his belief on the light of nature and reason."

This is why they wanted Fredom of religion inthe constitution.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Best solution would be to modernize Boy Scouts and allow for freedom of religion.
Scout Oath
. . To do my duty to God . . .
Your family and religious leaders teach you about God and the ways you can serve. You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings every day and by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs.


. . and morally straight.
To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance.

Note
DUTY TO GOD AND COUNTRY: Your FAMILY and religious leaders teach you to know and serve God. By following these teachings, you do your duty to God.

From the Boy Scout Law
A Scout is Reverent.
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

The intolerance is overwhelming

[Achilles]

Its a theory with overwhelming evidence. Gravity is also a theory, you know. Theories are laws created upon observation of natural behavior. Some creationists still deny the existence of DINOSAURS. Those bones must have been planted. I'm a Christian, however I believe that much of the Old Testament was purely an allegory teaching a lesson in morality. Taking it all literally is a mistake. Yes, I believe that God created life on this planet. However, thats not something that should be taught in a Science classroom. That is best taught in Bible study or a Theology class.

Our government needs to stay out of any and all religious matters. Part of upholding the ideals of the constitution does have to do with the Bill of Rights. More than just our founding fathers, but many of the greatest scientific minds of our time were Deists as well. They respected our religion, so why not respect theirs and religions of others? By giving government funded preference to a group that only lets Christian boys join, we send a negative message to those of other religions.

I was in the boy scouts when I was a kid. Good experience. I have nothing against them, but they should probably open up on religious matters. Boy Scouts is a fantastic experience for a kid, so why should they act prejudiced to some children based on religion? IMO, thats wrong.

Sorry if my comments seemed condescending or matter-of-fact. They were not meant to be. This is just my opinion, and make no mistake: I respect all of yours.

edit for NDD:

I forgot the Scout oaths. Good points there. Most religions do believe in God one way or anotherr. I don't think those oaths bar children of other religions (except atheists, and even then those children could learn to find God even when their parents may not believe in Him).

[NousDefionsDoc]

If they were teaching them how to fill out welfare and unemployment forms or get over on a piss test instead of how to tie knots and start a fire and be nice to people, nobody at the ACLU would be saying anything.

[rubberneck]

@ Rubberneck - The majority of founding fathers were Deists. They believed in a natural god, that took no real part in the lives or fates of humans. The deists version of 'god', is not the same as the christian god.



You are correct, however being religous and believing in an organized religion are not mutually exclusive ideas. While some of the founding fathers were clearly hostile towards organized religion it is quite clear that the laws that this country were founded on drew their inspiration from the judeo-chrisitan ethic.

[Achilles]

If they were teaching them how to fill out welfare and unemployment forms or get over on a piss test instead of how to tie knots and start a fire and be nice to people, nobody at the ACLU would be saying anything.

LOL, true. I hate the ACLU so much. They've been completely worthless since major prejudice issues have disappeared. Just because I agree with them on a single issue (more like agreeing with the Bill of Rights) doesn't make me like them, at all. On the flipside, affirmative action is very much unconstitutional and I'd like to see that GONE. Why a judge hasn't declared AA unconstitutional yet is beyond me. AL?

[rubberneck]

Boy Scouts is a fantastic experience for a kid, so why should they act prejudiced to some children based on religion? IMO, thats wrong.



I never understood this type of logic. Why should the Boy Scouts change their charter to suit the whims of others. It isn't by happenstance that members of the Boy Scouts are required to believe in God. If others want to start a group like the boy scouts that don't require kids to believe in God then go right ahead. This is a part of the bigotry that is faced by people of faith in this country (I am not saying you are a bigot by any means). A bigotry that says your institutions and histories are less important than their non-secular ideas. It leads gays to sue the Boy Scouts for the right to be included. Don't get me wrong I am not a uber right wing religious freak. I an a semi-practicing catholic that feels that the left has gone way too far in trying to seperate church and state. Part of our history as a country is at risk of being wiped out for fear that it might offend someone why else would you force LA to remove the cross from their seal.

[Achilles]

rubberneck:

I am in TOTAL agreement that the left has gone too far. They continue to push the envelope when it is not needed or wanted. The vast majority of people in this country are Christians, as every registered user viewing this post most likely is. As am I. I agree with you that the Boy Scouts should not be forced to change their charter. I only suggested a friendly ammendment to be fair. As much as it is not "fair" to have gays in Boy Scouts, that ammendment will probably never happen for obvious (and good) reasons. And I wouldn't want it to. I only suggested Joe Bob Muhammed with Muslim parents be allowed take part in scouting activities and be treated just like the rest of the kids instead of having to deal with prejudice just because his parents happen to have raised him with X religion.

You probably know what I'm getting at.

[Kyobanim]

While some of the founding fathers were clearly hostile towards organized religion it is quite clear that the laws that this country were founded on drew their inspiration from the judeo-chrisitan ethic.

I don't think it's clear at all. And besides, that was over 200 years ago. I think Tom said it best:

"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times." -Thomas Jefferson

This is an interesting conversation but, as with other religion based topics I've gotten involved in, probably won't end nicely. I'll just back out now.

[Achilles]

Fitting quote, Kyo. I'm going to step out of this conversation. I know this is a sensitive issue for some, and I'd rather not step on any toes over an issue of opinion.

[Razor]

By giving government funded preference to a group that only lets Christian boys join, we send a negative message to those of other religions.

I was in the boy scouts when I was a kid. Good experience. I have nothing against them, but they should probably open up on religious matters. Boy Scouts is a fantastic experience for a kid, so why should they act prejudiced to some children based on religion? IMO, thats wrong.

I'm sorely disappointed that as a former Scout, you demonstrate a great deal of ignorance about the wide variety of faiths openly accepted and encouraged by the Boy Scouts of America. To state that Scouts only support Christianity and discourage other faiths shows a shocking level of misunderstanding about the Scouting program on your part. I'm afraid that I won't let you simply 'step out' of this conversation, as part of your statements aren't simply a matter of opinion, but blatantly incorrect. Allow me to demonstrate why.

As an example of some of the faiths recognized by the BSA, let me list from my son's Bear Scout Handbook the religious emblems given as examples that Bear Scouts of different faiths can earn (listed in order of appearance in the Handbook): Jewish, Islamic, Hindu, Christian Scientist, Protestant, Churches of Christ, Meher Baba, Polish National Catholic, Buddhist, Baha'i, Eastern Orthodox, Armenian Church of America, Religious Society of Friends, and Roman Catholic.

The introductory paragraph for Achievement #1 reads in part, "The people who wrote and signed our Constitution were very wise. They understood the need of Americans to worship God as they choose."

Given the two examples above, I can't see where one could even begin to worry about the religious persecution of poor little "Joe Bob Muhammed" and his family. As an organization, the BSA supports a very diverse variety of faiths (I won't say all faiths, as I'm guessing Satanism isn't included in that group). If you believe otherwise based upon your experience as a Scout, then perhaps the religious prejudice you learned in Scouting actually comes from your leadership at the time. Have you considered that possibility?

Hopefully you've learned something tonight that you missed earlier in your Scouting experience.

[TPD1280]

"Congress shall make no law regarding an establishment of religion, OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF..."

The ACLU and others find that second phrase inconvenient, so they regularly omit it in their definition of Separation of Church and State. Much like the anti gun folks ignore the line, "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed," in the 2nd Amendment. Passing laws banning the BSA based on their religious standing violates the Constitution.

People commonly lose sight of the fact that this portion of the 1st Amendment was written to prohibit the establishment of an "Official" religion of the U.S.A., as was the case with the Anglican Church in Britian at the time our foreafthers left. It was never intended to become the anti-religion (or more correctly anti-Christian) billy-club that it has become.

I would love to see the ACLU have to defend the BSA, or someone who was fired/censured for saying Merry Christmas based on a violation of their 1st Amendment rights.

[brownapple]

Its a theory with overwhelming evidence.


BS

All science is based on two assumptions. Two faiths.

Do you understand science well enough to identify those faiths?

[brownapple]

@ Rubberneck - The majority of founding fathers were Deists.

Actually, no. The majority of the best known of the founding fathers may have been Deists, but to claim that the majority of the founding fathers were Deists misses the mark.

[Shark Bait]

BSA does not descriminate against any religions. Also, the whole purpose of the separation of church and state is to avoid having churches run government affairs.

[Jo Sul]

BS

All science is based on two assumptions. Two faiths.

Do you understand science well enough to identify those faiths?


Beer and Pizza? Those were the two faiths that I devoted most of my time to in my scientific studies in college.

[Shark Bait]

Beer and Pizza? Those were the two faiths that I devoted most of my time to in my scientific studies in college.
I believe that's what you base your religious beliefs on, too. Correct?? Enough beer and you might think you can see God.

[Jo Sul]

See God? Hell no - with enough beer I AM God!

[Sacamuelas]

See God? Hell no - with enough beer I AM God!

LOL

I've been there before... to many times! :D :lifter

[shootandloot]

I lost all faith in the ACLU being a legitimate Constitution protecting organization back when they defended NAMBLA.

[DunbarFC]

What's next the Little League ?

Their motto of Character, Courage and Loyalty might be a red state plot to take over the world


This is sickening and depressing. Using something that is fun and constructive for little kids to further a political agenda

[Achilles]

Thanks for pointing that out, Razor. Its just been a long time (and I didn't have the chance to stay in long enough to make Eagle). I never had a scout in my troop that wasn't Christian and from the allegations of the ACLU I wrong assumed that other religions were not allowed to participate. I apologize for the earlier comments on the BSA.

The comments on evolution vs creationism are a matter of opinion, and I apologize if I hit the wrong button, GH.



edit: I also heard the ACLU is trying to get lawyers to defend insurgents in Falluja. The ACLU is insane.

[flyboy1]

What's next the Little League ?

Nope.

A full boycott of the self-serving little girls known as Brownies will be next.
Their communist act of selling cookies to all good citizens is an outrage and they have single-handedly caused obesity in America. ;)

[brownapple]

Achilles,

You have no idea what my beliefs are. But I find it rather interesting that so many people proclaim their belief in science and the scientific method without understanding that there are two assumptions that must be taken on faith in doing so.

1. Our observations are generally accurate.

2. Repeatibility has some meaning.

Now, I happen to agree with those assumptions. But I do so based on faith because they cannot be proven.

[Achilles]

Sorry if I seemed presumptive about your beliefs, Sir. I did not mean to. I understand where you stand, but from my perspective many aspects of evolution are just as plausible as the theory of gravity. I know it does not explain for the sudden surge in intelligence of humans circa 10-15,000 years ago. I know that no physicist can explain why matter (nothing more than organized energy) exists or no metaphysicist can find a deinitive answer to the question of reality, and these are questions that will never be fully answered. In my opinion thats where the line between science and divine intervention exists, not whether a species has a greater chance to reproduce via higher survivability.

So... How bout them Cowboys?

[lrd]

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005946

Bashing the Boy Scouts
One group whose First Amendment rights the ACLU opposes.

Friday, November 26, 2004 12:01 a.m. EST

Legal historians may someday explain how the once-great American Civil Liberties Union came to see the Boy Scouts as public enemy number one. In the meantime, the ACLU keeps on bringing its absurd First Amendment challenges against the Scouts. The Defense Department is the latest defendant to throw in the towel.

The issue this time is the status of Scout troops on military bases. Most troops have institutional sponsors, and the military has traditionally performed this function for troops on bases, especially overseas where other options aren't readily available. The ACLU claims this is religious discrimination because the Boy Scouts require members to believe in God.

That argument received a boost last week when the Defense Department agreed to issue an all-points reminder that official sponsorship of Boy Scout troops is against departmental rules. The edict is unlikely to have much practical effect, since most troops can continue under private sponsorship. But the PR effect is immense. Defense admitted no guilt--a subtlety that went mostly unnoticed in the media rush to report the ACLU's "victory."

If all this weren't silly enough, another part of the ACLU lawsuit uses the same church-state argument to object to the famous Boy Scout Jamboree, held since 1981 at Fort A.P. Hill in Virginia. This time the military is willing to fight the charges, which eventually will be decided by a federal court in Illinois. The Scouts receive no direct financial support from the Army for the Jamboree--though the ACLU contends there are indirect costs involved.

But so what? The military earns a lot of public goodwill and A.P. Hill's soldiers learn a thing or two in helping to put up a temporary city and police 35,000 energetic teenage males. The Army even comes out ahead financially. The Scouts expect to spend $29 million on next year's Jamboree--and that's on top of the $12 million or more that they've already put into the base's permanent infrastructure. The military and other civilian groups make use of those facilities when the Scouts aren't there, which is all but nine days every four years....

What do you think the fallout from this will be? When we were overseas, BSA was the one sure way for all the boys on base to have some male contact/interaction/supervision during deployment.

[Maas]

Thought you guys would like this:

From: Senator Bill Frist [mailto:Senator.Bill.Frist@publicaster.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 3:42 PM
Subject: Thanks!Giving


On Saturday I introduced a bill S. 3026 (“Save Our Scouts”) that I ask you to spread the word about. It reflects good ole commonsense. Last week the Pentagon directed American military bases worldwide to forego officially sponsoring the Boy Scouts of America (BSA). This was in part a response to a lawsuit filed by the ACLU, which accuses the U.S. government of improperly supporting the BSA because “God” is mentioned in the oath.

This is merely the first salvo by the ACLU to end all federal support for the Boy Scouts of America. In their view, where there is government there cannot be faith.

I was a Boy Scout. Harrison, Jonathon, and Bryan were Scouts. The BSA is congressionally chartered. It serves a patriotic, charitable, and educational purpose, and the federal government’s support to the Boy Scouts is embodied in law. The Save Our Scouts bill reaffirms our longstanding commitment to the tradition of scouting by stating that no federal law, rule, regulation, or order shall limit any Federal agency from providing support to the Boy Scouts of America (or the Girl Scouts of America) -- including meetings, jamborees, camporees, or other scouting activities on federal property.

I encourage each and every one of you that believes in Scouting or takes offense at the actions of the ACLU, to write your Senator or Representative urging them to support S. 3026, the Frist “Save Our Scouts” bill.

I leave you with the wise words of George Washington in the first Thanksgiving Proclamation, October 3, 1789.

"Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the Providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor, and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint committee requested me to commend to the people of United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness, now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next, to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, Who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or will be."

Karyn and I and our three boys wish you and your family a joyful Thanksgiving.

Bill Frist

Maybe it will be enough.

[JPH]

The Scout Law: A scout is Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.

The Scout Oath: On my honor I will do my best, To do my duty to God and my country, and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.

The Scout Motto: Be Prepared

The Scout Slogan: Do a Good Turn Daily

I am a Eagle Scout of the Boy Scouts of America. I have continued my membership with the Boy Scouts as an adult leader.

I will never understand how someone could stand up against organizations that try to guide young men to follow the above guidelines to life. They have served me well, and I am very proud to call three fellow Eagle Scouts close friend, and very few things top the feeling of standing next to them in uniform welcoming another young man across as he completes the requirement along the trail to Eagle by living the scout oath and law.

Others (other scouts) may have other stories, however in my 17 years of scouting I have NEVER had anyone try to force any religious customs or beliefs on to me. I have had the honor and privilege to be exposed to many different religions other than my own, including atheist. This has made it much easier to be helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, and cheerful to other regardless if I agree with them or not.

Just my $0.02, I just had to voice my opinion on this, and this seemed like the right place to put it. I understand that this is just my opinion, but I also what to say that I am very proud of the rank of Eagle that I have worked for and the uniform I wear, just as many of you on this forum are proud of the rank and uniform you wear wile defending my right to peaceably assemble every Monday night at 7pm for a Boy Scout Meeting!!!!

Thank-you,
JPH