View Full Version : Old news...looking for current opinions
mdpatterson
08-17-2013, 04:17
Let me start by saying my name is Mike and I am an addict (Firearms are my addiction :)). I have read the multiple threads involving various opinions on pistols going back long before I joined the forum, but wanted current opinions specifically on the S&W M&P. I own too many handguns to even count by now, but I still can't pass up a good deal when it comes my way. My go to will always be one of my USP variants or one of my Sigs (I also love all my 1911's despite the flaws, but I'm not taking them to a gunfight......just fun range time). I know how TS/Reaper and many other highly respected QP's feel about 1911's and where S&W's are produced, so I'm ready for the ridicule:eek:.
Now after that long winded preface, I'm ready for the opinions. I purchased the M&P for $368 out the door with three high caps after my LEO discount. I have had zero opportunity to get it on the range, so I obviously can't make my own decision on it yet. It's a 9mm 4.25" base model, thankfully with no thumb safety. If I like the way it shoots, it will end up living full time in my vehicle just in case I forget to grab one one of my higher end pistols. If I don't like the way it shoots, or QP's here give it bad reviews it will be sold or traded.
I would normally not ask a question like this, but I have been out of town a lot and don't know when I will get the chance to put a few downrange.
I appreciate any and all input. If anyone wants to comment good or bad, feel free to pm me if you don't want to state your opinion in public.
Thanks in advance,
Mike
The Reaper
08-17-2013, 06:55
Let me start by saying my name is Mike and I am an addict (fFirearms are my addiction :)). I have read the multiple threads involving various opinions on pistols going back long before I joined the forum, but wanted current opinions specifically on the Springfield M&P. I own too many handguns to even count by now, but I still can't pass up a good deal when it comes my way. My go to will always be one of my USP variants or one of my Sigs (I also love all my 1911's despite the flaws, but I'm not taking them to a gunfight......just fun range time). I know how TS/Reaper and many other highly respected QP's feel about 1911's and where S&W's are produced, so I'm ready for the ridicule:eek:.
Now after that long winded preface, I'm ready for the opinions. I purchased the M&P for $368 out the door with three high caps after my LEO discount. I have had zero opportunity to get it on the range, so I obviously can't make my own decision on it yet. It's a 9mm 4.25" base model, thankfully with no thumb safety. If I like the way it shoots, it will end up living full time in my vehicle just in case I forget to grab one one of my higher end pistols. If I don't like the way it shoots, or QP's here give it bad reviews it will be sold or traded.
I would normally not ask a question like this, but I have been out of town a lot and don't know when I will get the chance to put a few downrange.
I appreciate any and all input. If anyone wants to comment good or bad, feel free to pm me if you don't want to state your opinion in public.
Thanks in advance,
Mike
What is a Springfield M&P?
TR
I think he meant to say Smith and Wesson M&P. :D
Peregrino
08-17-2013, 11:10
Now that we've clarified the mix-up. The S&W M&P is a quality Glock alternative. S&W has worked hard to ensure it's competitive with all of the other "tactical Tupperware" because they want the military and LEO markets. They've brought them to Bragg for us to play with several times over the last few years because they were soliciting input to incorporate "just in case" the Army ever comes to its senses and reopens pistol procurement. Each time a couple of us broke out of the office and wasted a morning shooting S&W's ammo. I liked all of the variants they demo'd. Even (especially) the ones with the manual safety. If I ever finish all of the other projects I'm playing with, I'll definitely consider getting a couple. Features wise, they have quite a bit going for them and they're easy to shoot. If my brother ever decides to get full sized pistols for my nieces, I'll recommend he look at them. It helps that S&W has a military/LEO discount (if you know to ask and you go through the program office to buy it) to make the price competitive with Blue Label Glocks. Course all of this is MOO. YMMV. Find a buddy who has one or a range with rentals and shoot it. If you like it, buy it. If you don't - well, now you have your own data points.
mdpatterson
08-17-2013, 14:29
I think he meant to say Smith and Wesson M&P. :D
Thanks, that was a bonehead typo on my part. I already purchased the pistol, just have had no chance to get to the range (Again, I just couldn't pass up the deal I got). Thanks again for the input.
Mike
mdpatterson
08-19-2013, 04:59
Just wanted to thank you again for your input, because I almost sold it before I even fired it. Got to the range earlier today and it was well worth the $368 I paid for it. I appreciate you giving me your opinion even after I called it a Springfield (I feel lucky I got any helpful replies after that lol).
Pretty sure I will have a trigger job done and put different sights on it, but other than that, it's another keeper.
Mike
You're going to LOVE the pistol. I took one right out of the box to Rogers Shooting School and it performed well, (I had NOT shot it previously). Since then, I've tossed probably 5-6 thousand rounds down the tube of my fullsize. I put a Warren rear sight on it as well as a fiber optic up front. I also put an Apex tactical Duty/Carry Action enhancement Kit in it. This thing breaks about the closest to a tuned 1911 I have ever shot. I shoot it well and it is my daily carry piece. I liked it so much I also bought the M&P compact for wear in the warmer months where concealment is a bit tighter. I recently picked up two M&P Shields but have not yet taken them to the range for shakeout/familiarization/ammo compatibility nor received the holster I ordered so I cannot yet comment on them. I suspect they will be great and will ultimately be my daily carry. Great lines, thin and good ergonomics.
I like them a LOT better than the Glocks I have carried/worked with.
Cake_14N
08-19-2013, 10:01
This is my EDC. With my supertuck delux, it is nearly invisible beneath a t-shirt.
My issue is I am always 1.5 inches low and to the right of center with each group I fire. Purely my fault, nothing wrong with the pistol. I can hand my M&P to the range officer and watch him drill the center of the target with each triggger pull. So I am sure it is my issue, not the pistol.
Cake
mdpatterson
08-20-2013, 06:23
I don't really need another host for a 9mm, but might try it out. Just curious if anyone here has. I have an old Gemtech with the huge L.I.D. just sitting around that may work.
JimP, thanks for the input. I'm getting the Apex put in soon, but still trying to decide on what sights to put on.
Thanks again,
Mike
frostfire
08-20-2013, 22:54
Just wanted to thank you again for your input, because I almost sold it before I even fired it. Got to the range earlier today and it was well worth the $368 I paid for it. I appreciate you giving me your opinion even after I called it a Springfield (I feel lucky I got any helpful replies after that lol).
Whoa! Is that $368 brand new? Mil/LEO pricing?
I'll be darn. With me, it came to the M&P or Glock few years back and the only reason I went w/Glock because it was cheaper and overall best-buy with great service at every GSSF matches. I paid $399 right from the factory. After years of index-finger flexing I finally got the darn thing to shoot as well as my using SIG/HK/1911 but that M&P grip is sure more elliptical/conformed-to-the-hand-with-flexed-finger cross-section just like the 1911 vs the bloody blocky glock grip
Concur with the Apex aftermarket. I tried my friend's and it breaks much crisper than modified gen 4 glock
mdpatterson
08-21-2013, 20:46
I am now thinking I might like the Apex FSS and Trigger better.....anyone have any experience with this kit?
This is my EDC. With my supertuck delux, it is nearly invisible beneath a t-shirt.
My issue is I am always 1.5 inches low and to the right of center with each group I fire. Purely my fault, nothing wrong with the pistol. I can hand my M&P to the range officer and watch him drill the center of the target with each triggger pull. So I am sure it is my issue, not the pistol.
Cake
This may help:
26195
For those of you with the Shields, you may want to check this out:
M&P Shield safety alert (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_791654_-1_757978_757978_image) (Smith & Wesson website link)
Smith & Wesson has identified a condition where the trigger bar pin could damage the lower trigger in certain M&P Shields in a way that may affect the functionality of the drop safety feature of the firearm, potentially allowing the pistol to discharge if it is dropped.
Any unintended discharge of a firearm has the potential to cause injury, and we ask that you STOP USING YOUR PISTOL IMMEDIATELY UNTIL IT HAS BEEN INSPECTED AND, IF THE CONDITION IS FOUND, REPAIRED.
This Safety Alert applies to all M&P Shield pistols manufactured before August 19, 2013. We believe this condition is largely limited to recently manufactured M&P Shield pistols. However, out of an abundance of caution, we are asking all consumers of all M&P Shields manufactured before August 19, 2013 to immediately inspect their pistols for this condition.
The Reaper
08-26-2013, 19:09
Ah yes, the joys of Smith and Wesson autos.:rolleyes:
TR
Ah yes, the joys of Smith and Wesson autos.:rolleyes:
TR
Those old M39s were real nice: engage safety, and hammer drops a bit too hard ... bang!
My .40 Shield broke a recoil spring in the first 500 rounds or so and I've noticed the mag release button rusting from IWB carry where the button touches skin.
Smith and Wesson promptly sent me a replacement spring and offered a replacement magazine release button. I've considered painting the button to see if it prevents the rust, but in the meantime have just been cleaning and putting FrogLube on it every couple weeks.
It absolutely hated Hornady Critical Duty ammo. FTF almost every other try.
mdpatterson
08-29-2013, 05:40
Installed it yesterday and like it much better than the DCAEK. Right at 4.5lb and super short reset. Still trying to decide what sights to with, but not in a rush.
frostfire
08-30-2013, 11:49
sights depend on what's your intended use. If you search the posting here, you'll see QP advising blackening the rear dots, leaving only the front dot. You'll find your acquisition much faster once you're pushing against timer. No time for brain to decide which dot/line is which.
Likewise, I use this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Truglo-Tfo-Handgun-Sight-Set/dp/B00162PRTA/ref=sr_1_2/182-6097558-8042315?ie=UTF8&qid=1377884335&sr=8-2&keywords=truglo+tfo
Green front dot is brighter than the yellow. So green = go, green = go, front sight-front sight-squeeze is all that went through the mind in splint second.
As you could see from the review, there are some cons to it. I personally don't like the smooth/curved front, which made it hard to rack the slide on the sights on belt/boot and I had to put skateboard tape to aid the process. OTOH, the length of the rear sight make a very small margin of error when seeing that symmetrical empty space to the left and right of the front sight. As a result, I've never found it easier to "ping" silhouette at 100m
There's also the mindset of thin front sight, FWIW for those who care what Gabe Suarez advises:
http://www.warriortalknews.com/2010/08/long-range-pistol-shooting.html
"The mission was this - Top of the Front Sight must be held level with the top of the Rear Sight, and the shooter must see an equal amount of light visible on either side of the Front Sight. Fiber optics, or pronounced dots made it exceedingly difficult to determine the exact top of the front sight"
It makes sense: The trade-off between acquisition vs. precision
YMMV
Still trying to decide what sights to with, but not in a rush.
As others have mentioned, have a look at Scott Warren's WTS sights, plain rear, Trijicon front.
http://www.warrentactical.com/products.htm
Might check with Scott for direct LEO/mil pricing. Otherwise MLE (linked off Scott's page) has them: http://mle-shootingsports.com/Warren-Tactical-Tritium-Mix-Sight-Set-MP-FullCompactShield?osCsid=ebd3380c9dc28b7fba40fb4e0 2269939
Also at CPWSA, Brownell's, others, etc.
JimP, did you go for a plain WTS rear with your FO front?
Yup, the rear is plain but is also u-shaped rather than the standard square cut. The "u" helps the eye align the fiber optic more quickly (in my -and others- opinion). As a defensive pistol, my intent is not to get the utmost precision but to quickly acquire the target and obtain trigger break at full presentation. Let your eyes naturally do the work for you rather than trying to stack various mechanisms on top of each other.
mdpatterson
08-31-2013, 15:48
Looks like they are the best option for my intended use (This is not going to be a competition target pistol). Thanks again to all who gave input.
Mike
mdpatterson
09-06-2013, 08:03
I'm still a big fan of the 1911 trigger (Even just average ones) and the Apex FSS trigger kit does get about as close as you can to one. On my custom 1911's, I have either a 3.5 or 4lb pull. The FSS came with two trigger return springs, one that had just about a 4.3 and the other claimed over 5 (I didn't bother with the heavier pull so I can't confirm exactly how much over 5 it was).
I wanted a lighter pull and almost bought the competition spring set just for the trigger return spring, but decided to call Apex and see what they thought. I was surprised when they told me the factory return spring is almost identical to the competition spring and to put that back in and see how I like it. Long story short, I love it. After putting the original return spring back along with the FSS trigger set, I now have a trigger with almost no pretravel, a super short reset and a absolutely consistent 3.5lb pull. I wouldn't want this setup as a LEO.....it is a bit light, but it is perfect for civilian use because if I ever have the need to point my weapon at another person, I am going to be sending rounds their way without hesitation.
Mike
frostfire
09-22-2013, 11:53
Yup, the rear is plain but is also u-shaped rather than the standard square cut. The "u" helps the eye align the fiber optic more quickly (in my -and others- opinion). As a defensive pistol, my intent is not to get the utmost precision but to quickly acquire the target and obtain trigger break at full presentation. Let your eyes naturally do the work for you rather than trying to stack various mechanisms on top of each other.
ok, I'm a believer of that U-shape now.
Tried another competitors pistol in a recent match. Stock G17 warren rear and sevigny front. My best ever run ever was 3.63. This may still be slow to you master shooters, but I dropped to 2.81 seconds and stayed under 3. Since my presentation averages 1.3s for the distance, that leaves 1.5 seconds for 6 shots at 6 plates at 11 yards. I was amazed myself and offered to buy the pistol from that guy right on the spot :D He refused.
Also became a believer of the G26. Thanks to keltec pf9 and ruger lcp, I got it in my head that 9mm subcompact = hand cannon. Well, another competitor lent me his gen 4 stock G26 and I did the same plates in 3.82 seconds. Guess I found my next purchase over the MP shiled, bereta nano, sig 938 etc :cool:
It absolutely hated Hornady Critical Duty ammo. FTF almost every other try.
Surprising. That would irk me no end, 'til I found out why and fixed it. Or got another sidearm.
I know another outstanding shooter other than JimP who loves the M&P, but I took mine back a few days after purchase. Just couldn't get in the groove with it.
(Probably a mental problem. I started shooting back in the days when you either shot a 1911 or a BHP...or a S&W revolver.)
Dusty, I think its the more angled shape of the Hornady bullets or the plastic/rubber filling in the hollow point cavity, because it seems to like some other hollow points ok. I use Remington Gold Sabres and Winchester PDX1 for carry.
I polished the feed ramp a little but it didn't do any good. I've had a couple failures to eject (due to not cleaning after each range trip I'm guessing). I've also recently had a couple FTFs while shooting Blazer steel cased FMJ.
Seriously starting to think about getting a Springfield XDS in .45 or a XD subcompact for CCW. My other Springfields don't have issues like the Shield.
Some of the problems could be me as I'm no gun expert and need to take some training classes. I just try to pay attention to the advice given here over the years.
Dusty, I think its the more angled shape of the Hornady bullets or the plastic/rubber filling in the hollow point cavity, because it seems to like some other hollow points ok. I use Remington Gold Sabres and Winchester PDX1 for carry.
I polished the feed ramp a little but it didn't do any good. I've had a couple failures to eject (due to not cleaning after each range trip I'm guessing). I've also recently had a couple FTFs while shooting Blazer steel cased FMJ.
Seriously starting to think about getting a Springfield XDS in .45 or a XD subcompact for CCW. My other Springfields don't have issues like the Shield.
Some of the problems could be me as I'm no gun expert and need to take some training classes. I just try to pay attention to the advice given here over the years.
I'm not being sarcastic or uppity when I say this: That particular gun I would never bank my life on.
Concur with the XD. Glock, FN, Ruger...anything that works out to be as consistent as possible when you pull the trigger.
Agreed. Just ordered a new holster for one of my more reliable guns. I just really wanted this one to work as I really like the size and feel. Thanks for the input.
OK, I contacted the LEO section of S & W and my local S & W dealer and was told that S & W doesn't give discounts to LEO individuals. Only departments. What is this "discount"?
Damocles
09-27-2013, 12:16
I have both an M&P full frame in 9mm as well as an M&P Shield in 9mm and they're both fantastic. The full size is at home, the Shield is my daily carry. While the single stack is certainly a compromise of capacity/accuracy(at range) for size/concealability, it is still a very viable option for most scenarios I can forsee myself encountering on a daily basis. I've put approximately 1,300 rounds of mixed ammo types through the Shield with not one FTF or any other malfunctions of any kind. I even refused to clean or oil the pistol through the first 600 rounds (mostly cheap, dirty cartridges) to see if I could force a malfunction, and ultimately failed to do so (I was not carrying the pistol at time of the test). It will continue to be my primary carry pistol until such a time as it proves itself incapable of performing its duties when called upon. I live in Florida, where hot and humid are the norm. Also, I am not a large man, so the thinner profile of the Shield is perfect for carry here in all seasons, though I can get by with the full framed M&P on some "winter" days.
The full size M&P is my primary home defense option, and sits readily available for immediate use in my home. I have owned this pistol longer than I have owned the Shield and have put approximately 5,000 rounds of mixed quality ammo through it. I have not had one malfunction.
Both pistols have been through several pistol training courses with me and both have performed superbly without a single hiccup through dust, dirt, gravel, sweat and even a little bit of blood (tip: superglue is a great field alternative for stitches).
I run the full sized M&P stock (though that may change in the future). I have installed several APEX Tactical internals in the Shield, as well as XS Big Dot sights. The XS Big Dots have greatly improved the effectiveness of shots taken with a flash sight picture. At longer ranges they can be cumbersome.
I do not own many firearms. The ones I do own, however, I would trust with the lives of my family. The M&Ps are a mainstay.