Brand New Day

[judcargile]

Lessons Learned:

I do not have a tab.

I can not expect to be equal in the forum.

I can not expect the benefit of the doubt.

It will take time and performance, I will have to show a reason to EARN credibility.

Reasons to start fresh:

If you never quit, you never fail.

I have a responsibility that goes beyond me to serve my contractor.

This forum provides an extraordinary content of insight above and beyond other defense product related forums.

Humility is a virtue, pride is the the root of all of the deadly sins.

Plan of execution:

I have a big shit sandwich, with very little bread to eat here. I am to take what I have coming and respond with "yes sir" and "thank you" as I have found that it even works in shoddy traffic stops because the constitution only protects my rights in some parallel universe. No need to get caught up in the trap of the way things ought to be, it is what it is and you can take the path of least resistance.

With that said, as I remember there seems to be the question of Surefire's HCM being reliable and it makes the world of difference to me regarding the value of trying to develop an M4 platform with an open-bolt capability. I have attempted to look over the issue of being reliable as I had first found, shortly after their being introduced. I believe the Marine Corp did contract a fairly large run of these 60 and 100 round magazines to be used with LWRC's version of the open-bolt design of the M4 that was contracted by the USMC to serve as a SAW in the squad level operations. I have found no information on the current status or reports of that trial being favorable or not.

I did find that within the first year of the release that debris, blow back residue from suppression and tilting followers did cause Surefire to work up a solution and I have not been able to verify that it in fact, resolved those issues.

As to the issue of the beyond debris, but, full blown trash coming into the ejection port of the rifle, outside of having to constantly close the dust cover under movement, I am thinking that in the way of the 4-way fire control group that I have seen, that could be a direction to consider; But, If I had this weapon and I was going to be in an environment that seemed to be prone to fouling up an open chamber, I would select semi/closed bolt config and try to remember the dust cover.

Please keep in mind, I am not presenting a finished project. I am tasked with developing it and right now the basic questions of the open-bolt design remains the first objective to answer.

Below is the basic set up of the Colt LMG. It was different than what I was expected to see. I have heard bad things about it's being reliable and I have heard good things about it. I was told that the Canadian forces use this currently, so, it should be considered; However, I am curious of other designs and need to confirm the Colt design as practical.

[Justinmd]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/06/07/m27-infantry-automatic-rifle/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M27_Infantry_Automatic_Rifle

[judcargile]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/06/07/m27-infantry-automatic-rifle/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M27_Infantry_Automatic_Rifle

Thanks for the (my) update on that project. This makes me want to inquire as to the rumors I have heard about the 416 samples sent to the USMC had broken during evaluation, can anyone hear report anything in authority on that being accurate, exaggerated or just BS?

Piston driven rifles came on the seen a long time after I got out of service, and since the DOD no longer picks out my gear, I have NO desire to mess with anything in a 5.56 caliber, I don't care how easy it is to clean. I think that the cleaner and cooler benefits of a piston operation over gas impingement is absolutely worth sticking with to work the bugs out; However, I have never heard of a model of piston in an AR platform that is truly reliable. I was lucky enough to meet Gene Carino with United Defense Manufacturing Corporation here in Metro Manila. I believe he may have perfected the piston driven AR type rifle and even though he is as new to the game as my US counterpart THOR, he is head and shoulders beyond any operation in the Philippines that I have seen. Even though relatively small, he may be one of the best manufacturers in the world. We do not know when this piston fails.

http://www.udmc-weapons.com/updates/2010-06-02/navsog-navy-seals-adopts-the-pvar-as-its-standard-rifle

Because he used to distribute for LWRC, we absolutely do not want to see a drawing or picture of their open-bolt design. I simply have a series of yes and no questions of anyone who has first hand experience with M4's with an open-bolt models. It is not a must have, but, I try to never operate on theory more than I have to. It can be expensive. There is a need here for this rifle, these little bastards are tough as nails, but, you have to consider that this rifle has also been built into 7.62 calibers. Now most of you are not the size of Asians (I am and I KNOW what it is to carry a load that men twice my size are required to deal with.) So increase your load by a weight of at least 30% and then tell me that you have no interest in carrying a rifle that can perform the function of a light machine gun. :p.

And yes I have met Col Riker and Maj Van Hoven, we have yet to get very familiar, but, they know who I am.

[Justinmd]

Are you kidding us with this? Seriously. First you don't know that the LWRC rifle wasn't selected to replace the SAW (hence the links I gave you). Then you write as though the piston AR was the shiny new prototype-only invention at SHOT this very year. Then you name drop a guy who basically copied an Adams Arms piston as far as I can see from the website, who coincidentally use to have a relationship with LWRC (similar piston setup). Then you give us this quote, "Because he used to distribute for LWRC, we absolutely do not want to see a drawing or picture of their open-bolt design." It almost seems like you missed a "wink-wink" in there somewhere. Then you name drop another couple of names randomly. I suspect you are not long for this world of QP's.

[judcargile]

I live in Metro Manila and I do work with Gene Carino the founder of UDMC.
My profile on Linkedin is endorsed by him and I have a published project with him, so this can be verified beyond my word. Right now we are swaging projectiles and the open-bolt project is of now a possibility that we are exploring for some of the smaller units here.

Col Riker (retired) and Maj Van Hoven are with JUSMAG Philippines and I have met with them regarding some bidding projects with the DND. Some of their work has them working with concerns in the southern part of this country that some of you are aware of and most likely know them by name.

There is no "wink-wink" with the current LWRC design, I do not want their data and can not for moral and legal reasons. I have to stay 20% outside of their design to not be considered unlawfully infringing on any design patent and if I never see their design, the percentages suggest that I could never come that close. As I said, I just have some yes and no questions to anyone in the know.

The information that I have on the USMC project is years old and I do not deny that. I am very aware that pistons are not new; However, it has only been within the past 60 days that I have even so much as held my first one. You have to take in account that I am not a fan of the 5.56 round at all in any way in any platform and there have been some very nice rifles come through and never ended up in my collection. The FS2000 and Steyr Augs are designs that I covet, but, I am very biased against the 5.56, just my personal preference. I got away from the AR platform completely from the mid 90s to 2009 when I bought the Armalite Super SASS while waiting and hoping to get kel-Tec's RFB. (Lucked up and got 0042!) So my paths crossing with a piston AR or a product that is NFA and not available for civilian transfer made after May of 86 is not that unreasonable. I am more into 7.62 calibers and adore bullpups. :D

Sir, please take into account that I have only been doing this professionally (and in an apprentice capacity, at that) since May of 2012. If you would like to review the profile that I keep reffering to, I have been contracting around the country as an industrial electrician with a specialization as an instrumentation technician, mainly in petro-chem and nuclear power houses. It is basically a field that deals with automated processes and deals with measurement and control functions. I may not seem like such a wild card if my background were taken into consideration.

[uspsmark]

I'm a visitor here, so I'll just make this observation:

True humility doesn't involve continually tooting your own horn. I, and many other non-QP visitors to this site, either learn to ask a question and have respectful back and forth conversations based upon facts or they end up leaving or being sent away.

[mdpatterson]

Have you actually held or fired the FS200? It might be one of the worst designs FN has ever come up with. I have a post sample F2000 and would rather have a 1022 if I had to take it in to a combat zone.

[Paragrouper]

Warning; Before anyone responds to this gentlemans specific technical questions, please review the Department of State's regulations regarding the export of technical data outside the United States.

While the OP asserts he is a US citizen, he is physically located outside the United States and any information sent to him may constitute an export. I work for a British owned company and we have an extensive interaction with both the Department of State and the Department of Commerce in order to conduct business with a parent company. Thus, we are very careful to stay within the laws and regulations governing export of material and technical data. If a query similar to this came into our office, we would decline to answer. The questions may seem to be innocent, but your responses may include US technology and know how the US Government may control.

To the OP; I strongly suggest you stop, regroup, and carefully consider the rules of our house before you post further.

[judcargile]

Warning; Before anyone responds to this gentlemans specific technical questions, please review the Department of State's regulations regarding the export of technical data outside the United States.

While the OP asserts he is a US citizen, he is physically located outside the United States and any information sent to him may constitute an export. I work for a British owned company and we have an extensive interaction with both the Department of State and the Department of Commerce in order to conduct business with a parent company. Thus, we are very careful to stay within the laws and regulations governing export of material and technical data. If a query similar to this came into our office, we would decline to answer. The questions may seem to be innocent, but your responses may include US technology and know how the US Government may control.

To the OP; I strongly suggest you stop, regroup, and carefully consider the rules of our house before you post further.


We are an ITAR compliant company sir and I am a US citizen on a US server. I think that you would concur that for a US citizen transmitting on a US server and not in contact with someone on a watch list (hmmm, that could be ME! LOL!!) I am out of bounds for even NSA. The point being that If I were to transmit the tech drawing or equiv to a non US citizen without an approved export permit, that would be problematic. for anyone to discuss the issue here with me is NOT export and neither would a transmission to a Knesek Group email address as it is obviously on a US server, Thank You.

[JHD]

We are an ITAR compliant company sir and I am a US citizen on a US server. I think that you would concur that for a US citizen transmitting on a US server and not in contact with someone on a watch list (hmmm, that could be ME! LOL!!) I am out of bounds for even NSA. The point being that If I were to transmit the tech drawing or equiv to a non US citizen without an approved export permit, that would be problematic. for anyone to discuss the issue here with me is NOT export and neither would a transmission to a Knesek Group email address as it is obviously on a US server, Thank You.

I am not saying you are not who you say you are. However, no one on this site can know for certain that you are telling the truth. This is a public forum. You could be linking through a VPN that makes it appear that you are on a US server, but in actuality are not.

I would proceed with caution as Paratrooper directed.

[judcargile]

Have you actually held or fired the FS200? It might be one of the worst designs FN has ever come up with. I have a post sample F2000 and would rather have a 1022 if I had to take it in to a combat zone.


In true form anyone here with connections with the firearms industry seems intent to find a reason to fault the effort of this post, so, we might as well talk guns. I have held the FS2000 and dry fired it. I was pretty disappointed with the trigger, but, I have never had any significant trigger time with it or obviously never had to live with it. You would think that any problems would come from the ejection system; I do have a Kel-Tec RFB and I L-O-V-E it even more than I thought I would. The ejection system does the same function; However, because I am not as familiar with the FS2000, I can not say that they have common designs.

As with the RFB, it would be expected to have "growing pains" with any new design and in my personal opinion, it is high time to move away from the decades old designs of the AR platform (a good one). I am 100% a bullpupophile all day long, the basic presentation makes too much sense not to exploit to it's fullest. The trigger on the RFB is not q-u-i-t-e as sweet as the trigger on the Armalite Super SASS; However, for a bullpup's inherent tendency to have some of the worst triggers in existence, I think George Kellgren did a very good job with this rifle. His production and distribution plan drives me up the freaking wall, but, I have had really good customer service with KT.

So I am curious as to your misgivings on the FS2000, most of the reviews I read were pretty good and I want to say that several countries even picked it up as there service rifle. I also would like to know how you clear it. For me to do a version of SPORTS on the RFB has me imitating a pretzel and the difficulty in observing the condition of the chamber area is the big downfall of the designs on both.

[judcargile]

[QUOTE=JHD;518394]I am not saying you are not who you say you are. However, no one on this site can know for certain that you are telling the truth. This is a public forum. You could be linking through a VPN that makes it appear that you are on a US server, but in actuality are not.





I am NOT an IT guy and will not pretend to be an authority on this. For the sake of clarification, if not just my own, because I do not want to get on the wrong side of DOS either, believe me. Let us just say that I want to talk about X. We discuss X here on this forum. This Forum is on a US server, right? So in the world of the internet, we are on US soil in a manner of speaking, right?

[judcargile]

I am NOT an IT guy and will not pretend to be an authority on this. For the sake of clarification, if not just my own, because I do not want to get on the wrong side of DOS either, believe me. Let us just say that I want to talk about X. We discuss X here on t26120his forum. This Forum is on a US server, right? So in the world of the internet, we are on US soil in a manner of speaking, right?


Awwww, HELL!!! Don't you just love it? I can't have NUTH'n! The son of bitch'n license is expired! (4 days by your calendar and 5 days by mine)

[JHD]

I am NOT an IT guy and will not pretend to be an authority on this. For the sake of clarification, if not just my own, because I do not want to get on the wrong side of DOS either, believe me. Let us just say that I want to talk about X. We discuss X here on t26120his forum. This Forum is on a US server, right? So in the world of the internet, we are on US soil in a manner of speaking, right?

Please please please remove your DL image. This site is, I believe, on US soil. However, your server's location, can't truly be verified. That is the issue.

If you want to discuss this issue, and can do so without violating the regulations that Paragrouper mentioned, if your company offers a secure email program to both send and receive emails, that would be the way to go. Otherwise, you may be violating laws, rules, and regs that Paragrouper mentioned by discussing it here.

[Ambush Master]

Please please please remove your DL image. This site is, I believe, on US soil. However, your server's location, can't truly be verified. That is the issue.

If you want to discuss this issue, and can do so without violating the regulations that Paragrouper mentioned, if your company offers a secure email program to both send and receive emails, that would be the way to go. Otherwise, you may be violating laws, rules, and regs that Paragrouper mentioned by discussing it here.

You've said way too much!! Get the hell back in you LANE and get out of
our way!!

Later
Martin

[JHD]

You've said way too much!! Get the hell back in you LANE and get out of
our way!!

Later
Martin

Very sorry, and apologies.. If he and any of you truly were interested in discussing and could do so legally, was trying to tell him to get a secure solution.

[The Reaper]

If you really wanted an answer, you could have defined the requirement better and explained why you want someone else to do design work for you/your company.

I am missing the purpose of a mag fed automatic rifle since the BAR, Bren, and RPK.

The mag feed on the SAW is a major problem.

Why not use a linked ammo feed system, and save the mag issues? I suspect that the links are lighter to boot.

You could dedicate the weight savings to a heavier barrel or a quick change one.

TR

[judcargile]

Please please please remove your DL image. This site is, I believe, on US soil. However, your server's location, can't truly be verified. That is the issue.

If you want to discuss this issue, and can do so without violating the regulations that Paragrouper mentioned, if your company offers a secure email program to both send and receive emails, that would be the way to go. Otherwise, you may be violating laws, rules, and regs that Paragrouper mentioned by discussing it here.


I considered the passport, but, that could leave me hanging out there, the DL is pretty vanilla and now that it is even expired, I would not recommend it for ID theft, my state does not require SS# on a DL; But, I am not up on the latest ways to assume a person's identity, so why not error on the side of caution.

26121

How about that? He can be contacted to vouch for me.


The regulation about transferring tech data to non US citizens without a DS-83, the end user certificate, BXA-711 or whatever the application to export approved by DOS is very real. However, the evidence of my citizenship is easily verifiable.

http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=152040874&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile


I am not clear as to why my being on a non US server would constitute export, it just is not an issue. If you were to disclose X, you are on a US server and have reason to believe that I am a US citizen. The AR platform is NOT in any way shape or form a sensitive item. I have stated that I do not and can not have another company's design. That is just tacky in my opinion. I know that LWRC will not even let an outside person even look inside their open-bolt and that tells me that there is a patent issue, like NO patent.

To cover my six on this, I do not need to spend the $250.00 for an export permit, I just need a letter from DOS that my consultation with a non US company of specific name and place is not in violation concerning item X, but, all of that falls on me. At any rate too many people here that are competitors in the industry have conveniently muddied the water on this issue and now it is a rotten egg. I have already gotten an assist and it is not an issue. My only motivation even since beginning a second thread on the subject was only for establishing credibility.

[judcargile]

If you really wanted an answer, you could have defined the requirement better and explained why you want someone else to do design work for you/your company.

I am missing the purpose of a mag fed automatic rifle since the BAR, Bren, and RPK.

The mag feed on the SAW is a major problem.

Why not use a linked ammo feed system, and save the mag issues? I suspect that the links are lighter to boot.

You could dedicate the weight savings to a heavier barrel or a quick change one.

TR

Actually sir, I do not want anyone to design this and I am not exactly lost on the concept. To have someone design or lay everything out would take all of the fun out of it.

I will just ask the questions,

Do I have to modify the bolt carrier?

Do I want to look more at a design toward manipulating from the bolt stop/release or do I want to hold the bolt off in the opposite direction?

Would you say that Colt's basic open-bolt design can be refined into the later versions or is it significantly different?

That gives me pretty much all of the direction that I want. Is it all the direction that I need? Time will tell and DOING this, to me, is the most thrilling thing in the entire world!

We distribute the Aeres Shriker belt-fed upper and it has a quick change barrel; But, it fires from a closed bolt and I do not have faith in that. I have never fired it or anything else; But, to me the belt has an ass load of problems. As you know, the belt gets hung on everything, it pulls trash into the action and or breaks, the boxes are bulky, ect. Sure, you can throw down 200 rounds without reloading, it has an advantage over magazines and even drums that are as bulky as the boxes for the saw. If they Surefire HCM is or ever will be reliable, think of all of the ammo you can carry as opposed to a drum or belt-box! It would need a quick change barrel, certainly.

We manufacture AR platforms, it is not a contracted machine shop. IF we can get the open bolt into a working prototype, it is not going to cost very much. It is a challenge to even try and I am having a ball with this.

[The Reaper]

We distribute the Aeres Shriker belt-fed upper and it has a quick change barrel; But, it fires from a closed bolt and I do not have faith in that. I have never fired it or anything else; But, to me the belt has an ass load of problems. As you know, the belt gets hung on everything, it pulls trash into the action and or breaks, the boxes are bulky, ect. Sure, you can throw down 200 rounds without reloading, it has an advantage over magazines and even drums that are as bulky as the boxes for the saw. If they Surefire HCM is or ever will be reliable, think of all of the ammo you can carry as opposed to a drum or belt-box! It would need a quick change barrel, certainly.

Put a 200 round ammo box on the ground and stack seven 30 round mags next to it.

For an even more ridiculous comparison, put a couple of the SF 90 rounders next to the SAW pack.

Ammo feeding from a box or an assault pack does not, in fact, "get hung on everything."

People who carry ammo Pancho Villa style do not know what they are doing.

TR

[judcargile]

Put a 200 round ammo box on the ground and stack seven 30 round mags next to it.

For an even more ridiculous comparison, put a couple of the SF 90 rounders next to it.

Ammo feeding from a box or an assault pack does not, in fact, "get hung on everything.

People who carry ammo Pancho Villa style do not know what they are doing.

TR

Noted sir, especially the mags to box comparison. I seem to remember that often the belt would get pulled from the box often and unintended, but, It has been almost twenty years since I have been in boots and obviously my three years in the Infantry do not quite equal that as the average experience of anyone in JSOC. In the early 90s, you had to be a Spc promoteable to be eligible for the selection course.

I actually was quite the fan of the SAW and as the opp for in the Infantry Skill Stakes in USAREUR, we hosted a lane that had a squad that had marched in from a live fire to an unoccupied and previously overrun position on top of a wooded hill. When they had replaced the sand bags on the dug in positions and put the stakes and wire in place, they would call us on the radio. It would be 4 or 5 of us coming up the hill, through the wire and basically commit suicide; Obviously, the whole point was to grade the squad who came in. We were just hosting the lane.

During the day as we were sitting around waiting on the next squad to show up, just mucking around, I noticed that there were 4 or 5 saws sitting on the ground, nobody wanted to carry the damn thing up the hill and had traded out for a rifle, so the SAWs had just unintentionally stacked up. We had a gung-ho Lt and talked him into, "Why not we just all carry a SAW up? They are elevated and dug in, what could it hurt to make these guys work for it? Besides, the French are up next! He went for it and that is what we did. By the time they detected us at the wire and both sides opened up, within just a few seconds, that hill was blaring the tones of every set of miles gear they had!

Maybe that is why I am so hung up on getting a cut above the regular battle rifle? As I had mentioned in my earlier post, these Asians are hard as nails and the Marines and NAVSOG (US trained) would make their US counterparts proud. But, I am the size of the average Asian and I know all too well what it is to carry the load requirement of a man twice my size. When shit has to get done, fair can not always make the train. The whole concept appeals to me and it appeals to my primary. If we can make this work, then I will work on proving how much better it is. The savings in cost and weight is a serious player; But, it is more worthwhile to service small units. I could easily triple the size of this post just by glossing over why government procurement is really not worth the trouble and 9 times out of 10, only the largest companies can even qualify to bid on contracts.

If in fact, the Surefire HCM is not quite the cat's ass as I have convinced myself after all, my personal enthusiasm for the open-bolt AR platform would be a little more than dampened. We have the facilities and manpower to actually do this, I just want the best understanding that I can get before we put man hours into it. If he sees he can trust me, then my original designs may just see the light of day. It will be an adventure, either way.

[Buckles]

Ok first off, you are trying way to hard to prove you are legit.

Second point providing any technical data to any person or company outside the US (US citizen or not) is a violation of ITAR as well as export regulations, and even providing something as armorer training can be considered a volition. Working at SIG on the international sales group I have experience with this, we are even required to get an export license to share technical data with our German and Swiss companies.

Now more to the matter, an open bolt AR platform. Okay I can understand the desire to have the weapon blend in with the rest of the squad and such. However here are some errors of thought on this.

reliable feeding - the rate of fire on a AR is limited by the strength of magazine springs, in full auto fire the bolt can potentially cycle faster than the springs can feed the round, this could cause failure to feed. this is not an issue for belt fed
Also pertaining to the magazine, if something goes wrong with the mag, bad feed lips, gets dented or such, the ammo in it is unusable until you download it, with an ammo belt you break off the link and by pass the issue

ammo reloads - on a belt fed weapons system you can see your ammo and better id when you will need to reload, you also have the ability to link the next belt to the ammo belt currently in the gun. When your magazine runs dry, you don't know until the bolt locks back.

Barrel change - when in a support by fire, you are going to putting a lot of rounds down range, you are going to need to change barrels, not happening with an AR platform, even the weapon systems that are capable of a barrel change at the user level cannot do it while in a fire fight.

There are other issues with being able to sustain rates of fire, and being able to carry ammo, as well a disturbing ammo across a team or squad, no one wants to give up his mags. This has been looked at by a few different companies LWRC, FN and a few others and the biggest drawback is that you cannot keep this gun fed to be effective.

All that being said I have taken a look at the Thor Global Defense Group website and can see that you guys assemble guns and your posts here are a fishing trip to steer you in a direction to develop an open bolt AR platform

TR I respectfully request this gets put in the hall

[alelks]

JESUS CHRIST! Someone dump this turd!

26122

[MR2]

Grrrr...

[judcargile]

Ok first off, you are trying way to hard to prove you are legit.

Second point providing any technical data to any person or company outside the US (US citizen or not) is a violation of ITAR as well as export regulations, and even providing something as armorer training can be considered a volition. Working at SIG on the international sales group I have experience with this, we are even required to get an export license to share technical data with our German and Swiss companies.

Now more to the matter, an open bolt AR platform. Okay I can understand the desire to have the weapon blend in with the rest of the squad and such. However here are some errors of thought on this.

reliable feeding - the rate of fire on a AR is limited by the strength of magazine springs, in full auto fire the bolt can potentially cycle faster than the springs can feed the round, this could cause failure to feed. this is not an issue for belt fed
Also pertaining to the magazine, if something goes wrong with the mag, bad feed lips, gets dented or such, the ammo in it is unusable until you download it, with an ammo belt you break off the link and by pass the issue

ammo reloads - on a belt fed weapons system you can see your ammo and better id when you will need to reload, you also have the ability to link the next belt to the ammo belt currently in the gun. When your magazine runs dry, you don't know until the bolt locks back.

Barrel change - when in a support by fire, you are going to putting a lot of rounds down range, you are going to need to change barrels, not happening with an AR platform, even the weapon systems that are capable of a barrel change at the user level cannot do it while in a fire fight.

There are other issues with being able to sustain rates of fire, and being able to carry ammo, as well a disturbing ammo across a team or squad, no one wants to give up his mags. This has been looked at by a few different companies LWRC, FN and a few others and the biggest drawback is that you cannot keep this gun fed to be effective.

All that being said I have taken a look at the Thor Global Defense Group website and can see that you guys assemble guns and your posts here are a fishing trip to steer you in a direction to develop an open bolt AR platform

TR I respectfully request this gets put in the hall

Excellent points made; However, the point about THOR having anything to do with an open-bolt AR is absolutely not true. THOR's sales are mostly civilian and open-bolts are not permitted in civilian, semi model only, it makes no difference We have a belt-fed upper that we distribute and it is made to do a barrel swap, quick changed on the spot. I will be sure and get approval from DOS before I present anything here on the volcano. If you guys will give me 24 to post the text of the ITAR before you throw this out in the hall, I would appreciate it. I would like to confirm or disprove the theories to whichever end it leads.

[Paragrouper]

We are an ITAR compliant company sir and I am a US citizen on a US server. I think that you would concur that for a US citizen transmitting on a US server and not in contact with someone on a watch list (hmmm, that could be ME! LOL!!) I am out of bounds for even NSA. The point being that If I were to transmit the tech drawing or equiv to a non US citizen without an approved export permit, that would be problematic. for anyone to discuss the issue here with me is NOT export and neither would a transmission to a Knesek Group email address as it is obviously on a US server, Thank You.

I'm not going to debate US export law with you, particularly when you post crap such as that above. My caution was for the benefit of the others on this forum--not you.

Maybe one day you will realize just how dense you are.

[blue02hd]

Don't forget to ban the horse he rode in on.