Need Assist, 18B?

[judcargile]

I work for THOR Global Defense Group of Van Burren, Arkansas. It is the manufacturing arm of Knesek Guns Incorporated, both owned by Larry Knesek.

I can be contacted, jcargile@knesekgroup.com and I have a profile on Linkedin that can be viewed as my diplomas and certs, as well as endorsements from THOR and other manufacturers can be verified. Just so you know you are not entertaining a 13 year old or other "shadey" type.

This is where I am at.

Colt attempted an open-bolt version of the M16 a while back and it was not very reliable; However, LWRC seems to have perfected the design.

When Surefire brought the 60 round mags to the table, it really made the use of an open-bolt battle rifle as a SAW practical in my way of thinking.

I have some ideas somewhat developed as to how to keep the bolt to the rear when in full auto mode, but, if there is anyone out there who has first hand experience on the pros and cons of this design or can save me a lot of asprin as to trying to tackle this project, I am very much hoping for first hand experience and am not opposed to discussing theory for that matter. I have been mistaken a time or two in my life and do not pretend to have all of the answers.

I have no problem discussing this in an open forum or privately via my company email account.

Thank You,

Juc Cargile
THOR Global Defense Group
Representative SE Asia

I am an American citizen and use US based servers only. Our company is registered with the State Department and we are ITAR compliant. All communications are confidential. I will not discuss anything with non US citizens.

[35NCO]

From a builder’s (non-QP) perspective:

“When Surefire brought the 60 round mags to the table…..” ?

From my understanding the reputation of the Surefire Mags in a dusty or combat environment is terrible. I have not met anyone that takes the Mags seriously other than a novelty. I have also personally witnessed on separate occasions the 60 Round Surefire Mag blow apart out the top of the Mag at public ranges. Maybe Surefire has fixed the issues, but I have not seen one that works properly yet without high maintenance and lubes. At least not in long term functionality. (YMMV)

“I have some ideas somewhat developed as to how to keep the bolt to the rear when in full auto mode, but, if there is anyone out there who has first hand experience on the pros and cons of this design or can save me….”

This would indicate to me that you are not ready to take on this project.(My opinion) It is very vague in that it seems like you do not understand why you would want to make this weapon system. It is also confusing because you state that LWRC has perfected the design. Are you attempting something different? I know that your company is a dealer in LWRC, are you creating a new brand? It reads to me, like you are fishing for marketing statistics and customers again.

If you are serious, can you please indicate that you have any technical knowledge on how the operation of the bolt and fire control group would work together and why you think the operation would be more beneficial to today’s soldiers on the current and future battle front? There are some great papers in the “Small Arms Review” databases and “Small arms of the World” get into some pretty indepth discussions of the variations. The pros and cons are very well documented.

[Team Sergeant]

I work for THOR Global Defense Group of Van Burren, Arkansas. It is the manufacturing arm of Knesek Guns Incorporated, both owned by Larry Knesek.

I can be contacted, jcargile@knesekgroup.com and I have a profile on Linkedin that can be viewed as my diplomas and certs, as well as endorsements from THOR and other manufacturers can be verified. Just so you know you are not entertaining a 13 year old or other "shadey" type.

This is where I am at.

Colt attempted an open-bolt version of the M16 a while back and it was not very reliable; However, LWRC seems to have perfected the design.

When Surefire brought the 60 round mags to the table, it really made the use of an open-bolt battle rifle as a SAW practical in my way of thinking.

I have some ideas somewhat developed as to how to keep the bolt to the rear when in full auto mode, but, if there is anyone out there who has first hand experience on the pros and cons of this design or can save me a lot of asprin as to trying to tackle this project, I am very much hoping for first hand experience and am not opposed to discussing theory for that matter. I have been mistaken a time or two in my life and do not pretend to have all of the answers.
I have no problem discussing this in an open forum or privately via my company email account.

Thank You,

Juc Cargile
THOR Global Defense Group
Representative SE Asia

I am an American citizen and use US based servers only. Our company is registered with the State Department and we are ITAR compliant. All communications are confidential. I will not discuss anything with non US citizens.

No problem, just send us $100,000 in $20's and we'll get right on that design.......:munchin

[judcargile]

From a builder’s (non-QP) perspective:

“When Surefire brought the 60 round mags to the table…..” ?

From my understanding the reputation of the Surefire Mags in a dusty or combat environment is terrible. I have not met anyone that takes the Mags seriously other than a novelty. I have also personally witnessed on separate occasions the 60 Round Surefire Mag blow apart out the top of the Mag at public ranges. Maybe Surefire has fixed the issues, but I have not seen one that works properly yet without high maintenance and lubes. At least not in long term functionality. (YMMV)

“I have some ideas somewhat developed as to how to keep the bolt to the rear when in full auto mode, but, if there is anyone out there who has first hand experience on the pros and cons of this design or can save me….”

This would indicate to me that you are not ready to take on this project.(My opinion) It is very vague in that it seems like you do not understand why you would want to make this weapon system. It is also confusing because you state that LWRC has perfected the design. Are you attempting something different? I know that your company is a dealer in LWRC, are you creating a new brand? It reads to me, like you are fishing for marketing statistics and customers again.

If you are serious, can you please indicate that you have any technical knowledge on how the operation of the bolt and fire control group would work together and why you think the operation would be more beneficial to today’s soldiers on the current and future battle front? There are some great papers in the “Small Arms Review” databases and “Small arms of the World” get into some pretty indepth discussions of the variations. The pros and cons are very well documented.

Well, you are making a lot of assumptions and contributing nothing to the post that I have here. Luckily for me, nothing of what I have before me will require that I impress you and I would appreciate it very much if you remove yourself from this discussion, actually I going to insist you do.

[Streck-Fu]

Pass the :munchin

[judcargile]

What benefits will YOUR open bolt design have over the current design? I say this not to jerk you around but to think to yourself why. What is the purpose of the design? For full auto support weapon you need a belt fed weapon. IMHO it seems like a solution in search of a problem.



My modifying a rifle we already produce for very little added cost vs our distributing an open-bolt for another company that costs about the same price as an FN SAW is the biggest advantage by far. We also distribute a belt-fed upper, but, the damn thing IS a closed bolt and I can not believe that! We NEED an open-bolt option in a bad way.

Once a barrel gets above a temperature that I want to say is just above 200 F and I have read 4-500 F, the chambered round will ignite or cook off from the heat of the chamber, that is why proper machine guns use an open bolt design. I know that towards the end of a combat load of just over 200 rounds you can start to have these "cook offs", but, it depends on the frequency and amount of rounds fired and the ambient temperature of the environment.

The piston type AR was developed after I got "out of boots" and I am told the operating rod actually keeps the bolt, carrier and chamber cooler than the impingement design. I can see how the piston keeps the bolt and carrier cleaner and cooler, maybe even the chamber to some extent, but, the chamber would SEEM to me to be a source of heat regardless of method to cycle.

The open bolt also will help to increase the rate of fire and with the safety of having the bolt held in the open position, this design in an M4 type rifle can actually be used with true high capacity magazines such as Surefire's 60 round and even 100 round design or you could use Beta drums and have a smaller and lighter squad automatic weapon for less money than the traditional FN designs of belt-fed SAW.

My main bitch with closed bolt weapons on full auto is they are not very accurate and as an Infantryman, I only used FA fire when I was forced to by a superior. If you have ever compared an Uzi to an MP5, you clearly understand the difference as an open-bolt has an even exchange between the bolt slamming forward and immediately getting knocked back. Ideally, when this design is placed in semi, it returns to the traditional closed bolt design.

This will be significantly heavier than an M4 generally issued currently. The stress on the pins in the lower receiver would most likely destroy the alloy receiver currently used and a heavier alloy (maybe even steel) or a much wider reinforced ring around the pins will have to be installed to handle the extra strain.

[uspsmark]

...I would appreciate it very much if you remove yourself from this discussion, actually I going to insist you do.

Wow! This is going to be a very interesting thread to follow/watch if it stays up very long. :munchin

[Snaquebite]

I would appreciate it very much if you remove yourself from this discussion, actually I going to insist you do.

Let me make this perfectly clear...

YOU DO NOT INSIST ON ANYTHING IN OUR HOUSE!

[The Reaper]

I am calling two strikes here already, judcargile.

This is not your forum, and you are asking people to help you.

Frankly, at this point, I am no sure why anyone would want to, but I guess some just have a morbid curiosity.

Remember to show respect in order to receive it.

TR

[judcargile]

I am calling two strikes here already, judcargile.

This is not your forum, and you are asking people to help you.

Frankly, at this point, I am no sure why anyone would want to, but I guess some just have a morbid curiosity.

Remember to show respect in order to receive it.

TR


Crystal,

I apologize, I just let that rub me the wrong way. Maybe the gentleman has actually done more than build an AR or two out his garage and is not in his retirement years looking for something he can nit-pick; I am just as guilty for making my own assumptions. My face, name and resume are available to the public as I originally stated and instead of contributing to the project at hand, he wanted to debate the business that I had to post it. The response that I have gotten through usual means has exceeded my expectations and I will remove this post in a few days.

I apologize for my outburst, I COULD have handled that better. In the future, who would be my POC for submitting a hurt feelings report?

[judcargile]

I should also add here that at one time it seemed to be a slam dunk that to do a semi version in an open-bolt would have been the "ticket" with a slide fire stock. (they seem to work well, but, I have never had hands on one.) Who has 15K to put on a registered sear?

WARNING!!!
Open-bolt weapons (even semi) have been reported to me by people in authority to be forbidden by the NFA division for civilian markets. You should not attempt beyond design stages for expressed information purposes ONLY. The companies that I contract for hold the proper permits for their facilities.

[Justinmd]

There are those here who know weapons design, and there are some that know your parent company to some degree. I have little doubt that members of this website could create the design you are after, however I also somewhat doubt they will do it pro bono. It may have been your misfortune to be rude to the one person who has worked out a clever mechanism such as you seek (35NCO). A lot of dreamers and wannabe's come through here so he may have been vetting you a bit. I don't know the first thing about rifle design but I suspect that what 35NCO is getting at is actually the first thing about autoloading rifle design, i.e. the magazine is the rifle. Since he clearly knows the first thing about rifle design it may behoove you to make amends as it appears you have started.

Surely you have noticed that LWRC kept their rifle buttoned up extremely tight, and also you surely noticed two other things: they didn't win and no one else had an open/closed bolt system (if I remember). You will find it nearly impossible, I think, to retrofit current AR's for "very little added cost", or it would have been done.

The rifle would have the obvious design advantages noted but the disadvantages would depend on the cleverness of the mechanism and would be inversely proportional to the cost (as is always the case with design). Finally I will add that increasing the rate of fire has never been an issue on the AR and I will also add that an automatic rifle such as the SAW has the size and weight it does for many reasons and not all of which involve the belt feed mechanism.

For reference I will recommend the AR bible, called "The Black Rifle" or something similar. For further reference I would suggest getting a DTIC account and you might look up something called the "cone of fire". Good luck, if your idea pans out, you won't have to tell us as we'll know.
Justin

P.S. TR is The Reaper, he is not Crystal. I may be a big pussy but the last thing I would do would be to call an SF guy named "The Reaper" a girl's name but maybe because I'm a soft fat candy ass.

[judcargile]

Well, having served in the Army in the early 90s, when a superior locked your heels and clarified something, then asked you if things we now clear, it was common to rely "crystal" as in crystal clear. Times change and so do minor traditions I suppose.

I have never claimed to be John Browning and do not know everything by any stretch of the imagination; However, I do have some world's first under my belt (in the works) and until a couple of years ago was completely on my own. Now a days I have yet to have earned a top billing in the industry, but, eventually I hope to work to advance the changes I see needed that will impact and perhaps change the industry as we know it. I do have my foot in the door at this point.

Presently, I am forced to work within the same decades old designs because that is where the highest demands are in the market. Larry Knesek and THOR are not very involved in this project directly as open-bolt designs would not have much value in the civilian market. I do understand why most anyone would assume this is an in house project. The firearms industry is more cut-throat than I would have imagined and I could tell stories even at my green stage in the game that would be rather eye opening for many of you. The market that a partner of ours has REALLY could use this design and in MY opinion ALL select-fire rifles need to fire from a closed bolt on semi and open on full-auto. My primary agrees.

All of the companies that I am contracting for range from coming out of the ground to about five years old. None of these are house hold names; But, one of them is probably one of the best in the world in my opinion. This game is like any other game, it comes down to funding. You give me the training budget that some units have and will take an average unit and turn them into one of the most capable forces in existence. I have to start with small and humble things to generate the funds to operate how I want to. I want nothing more than to make that 1000 yard shot and I am convinced that I have the plan and field craft to pull it off, but, I have to start with the 50 and then the 100, so forth and so on.

Let us PLEASE not turn this thread into a contest. If you want to look me up, go to Linkedin and look up my profile and in turn the people who endorse me and those that have endorsed them. I may go broke on my way up this ladder or blow myself up in my super secret laboratory, sometimes the unforeseen just happens or I may be a casualty of tunnel vision. All I know is that I got something inside me that I can not turn off.

I admire the quality of Steyr and the efficiency of Norinco. If I need to help these existing manufactures get into the best possible position that is possible and generate funds to expand that would allow for the R&D that I need to bring MY ORIGINAL ideas out of my head and onto shelf to put these superior weapon systems at affordable prices into the hands of ALL free men.

Just read the original thread, operating on theory can waste a lot of time and money. Why do I have to transverse a mine field when I can ask someone for a map or at least a coordinate and direction?

[Toaster]

JudCargile,

If and when you do design/create the newest and best rifle for our Soldiers to carry, you will have to convince a group of people to do what you want them to do, because they want to do it. I would like to see another rifle design for our military, simply because I'm sure a better one can be made.

You've pissed off and entertained at your expense several people here. When you are selling someone something, the first thing I have in my mind is how can I help them solve their problems? When I place their interests first they are more likely to purchase, because they want to and it benefits them. If you want assistance from the QPs here, you need to convince them it is in their best interests to help you. That's not going to be an easy sell.

I would recommend listening to Zig Ziglar's Sales Mastery Academy, a Dale Carnegie course, Tom Hopkins Sales training CDs, or Brian Tracey CDs on Selling, if you want to help out our Soldiers with a better rifle.

:munchin

[miclo18d]

IMHO it seems like a solution in search of a problem.

I will concur with this statement. You yourself stated that it would take an order from a superior to get you to fire on full auto. I myself wouldn't even do it if commanded to. I could state all of the obvious reasons that full auto is a waste in an individual's battle rifle, but I want to include one less obvious.

Open bolt machine guns were designed to fire full auto, not semiauto. They are made with less tolerance because the object is to spray your target down with a beaten zone (someone mentioned cone of fire...beaten zone is the result). Not being accurized is good for a machinegun. That said they can take a lot of abuse.

The individual battle rifle and more specifically the M16/M4 and variants are fairly accurized battle rifles (I'm not talking sniper stuff here just compared to other nations battle rifles ie AK). That said they have tighter tolerances and there for are susceptible to malfunction if not clean. I will give you an instance where this can be disastrous. Trench Fighting. By trench, I will say that means anything from a trench network to dug out fighting positions where the walls are dirt. When I was in 3/75th one of our Objs was K-22 :( it had a trench network dug around it to simulate Iraqi fighting positions (early 90s). We would clear the trenches then move to a shoot house and clear the OBJ. While clearing the trench with full auto CAR-15s the ATL was firing a burst and dirt was flying right into the chamber and I'm not entirely sure what caused it (headspace, cook off, slam fire) but the entire rifle blew up in the soldier's hand. He was lucky he wasn't injured.

My question would be: how does an open bolt (when on full auto) battle rifle make that situation any better? Wouldn't having the open bolt make this even MORE problematic? Or am I looking at this problem from the wrong angle?

I think I understand what you are trying to accomplish and like Brush Okey said you are trying to solve a problem that doesn't really exist. I have fired many hundred rounds through full auto M4s without overheating problems or even cook offs and I was always expecting them.

I have seen cook offs with open bolt machine guns that have resulted in powder burns to soldiers faces and eyes.

How are these problems to be addressed?


And please don't get huffy over answers you don't want to hear. You are basically calling Dr Laura Slessinger. People call her because they want someone to agree with them, and usually walk away with a sad face. You may have a neat idea but what problem does it solve other than novelty? To keep the weapon cooler? Someone already made the piston driven M4s and in a DI system, it isn't REALLY a problem anyway. Unless you are inventing the caseless cartridge or a rail gun you are just modifying 100 year old tech... Reinventing the wheel so to speak.

[BryanK]

...
The open bolt also will help to increase the rate of fire and with the safety of having the bolt held in the open position, this design in an M4 type rifle can actually be used with true high capacity magazines such as Surefire's 60 round and even 100 round design or you could use Beta drums and have a smaller and lighter squad automatic weapon for less money than the traditional FN designs of belt-fed SAW.

Just throw a front sight on this sucker: M231 Firing Port Weapon (http://xbradtc.com/2011/01/19/the-firing-port-weapon/) and call it a day (M231 info is about the 5th paragraph down) :D

From the article (snip):

The M231 has a much shorter barrel than the M16, and also doesn’t have a front sight. You’ll notice at the front, it is designed to screw into the ball joint of a firing port. In addition, because it is intended to be fired form the port, it has no buttstock, just the buffer tube to hold the action spring. But the most significant changes to the weapon are internal.

Whereas the M16 series rifles fire from a closed bolt, and are selective fire, the M231 fires from an open bolt, and is only capable of fully automatic fire. It also has a much, much higher cyclic rate of fire than the M16 series. Instead of firing at about 600 rounds per minute, the M231 fires at about 1,100 rounds per minute. That little 30 round magazine doesn’t last long.

Just a little background on me if you want it, I served 10 years (Army) as a small arms repairer/fire control systems repairer (45B/45G). I am curious as to the benefit to those who would be using an open bolt, full-auto only designed rifle as opposed to a shorty SAW. I am not and have not been in SOF, but are there that many problems in the field with SAW's jamming or having feeding issues that would constitute a very expensive change like this? I'm all for innovation, but I also believe "if it ain't broke don't fix it".

[judcargile]

One thing I have noticed as the ones who had the ability to contribute and give my request motive force actually responded in private.

The ones who felt compelled to give me "the business" over this had to do it publicly.


Simple really, I choose not to argue the point. I simply have better uses for my time. Not everyone is going to take the time to get to know me and not everyone is going to like any given thing a person comes up with.

I STILL invite anyone with knowledge specific to an open-bolt on an AR platform contact me. I have questions for you.

Nothing else is anything more than interesting, and that is being generous.

[blue02hd]

One thing I have noticed as the ones who had the ability to contribute and give my request motive force actually responded in private.

The ones who felt compelled to give me "the business" over this had to do it publicly.


Simple really, I choose not to argue the point. I simply have better uses for my time. Not everyone is going to take the time to get to know me and not everyone is going to like any given thing a person comes up with.

I STILL invite anyone with knowledge specific to an open-bolt on an AR platform contact me. I have questions for you.

Nothing else is anything more than interesting, and that is being generous.

I find that you're an arrogant asshole. Go find a hug somewhere else. You're too inept to do your own research, ask for help in a completely unprofessional manner, then look down your nose at those who didn't add value or interest? Do you plan on compensating those who did respond? You don't need to argue this point: You're a inexperienced rude guest here. Not sure how much more specific I can be. Those who responded to you probably had better use for their time too, but yet they stopped to help you condescending son of a bitch.

What company did you say you represented again?

Way to represent.

[Pete]

Well, having served in the Army in the early 90s, when a superior locked your heels and clarified something, then asked you if things we now clear, it was common to rely "crystal" as in crystal clear. Times change and so do minor traditions I suppose............

Lot's of us were in the Army in the early 90's. I must have missed the minor tradition of "crystal".

Mostly it was "Roger that, Airborne!" - SF skipped the "Airborne" bit most of the time - it was kind of an "implied task".

[Snaquebite]

judcargile has reported this post:

This is the reason that the user gave:
This entire thread has turned to complete crap. If I could delete this, I would. Please delete this post, I see nothing good can possibly come from this.
:boohoo

It did cross my mind to go ahead and delete the thread, however, I believe it can still have value by showing others how NOT to act when in our house.

Have a very SF day.

[miclo18d]

One thing I have noticed as the ones who had the ability to contribute and give my request motive force actually responded in private.

The ones who felt compelled to give me "the business" over this had to do it publicly.


Simple really, I choose not to argue the point. I simply have better uses for my time. Not everyone is going to take the time to get to know me and not everyone is going to like any given thing a person comes up with.

I STILL invite anyone with knowledge specific to an open-bolt on an AR platform contact me. I have questions for you.

Nothing else is anything more than interesting, and that is being generous.
I see....

You choose not to answer posts that make you and your "product" look like complete garbage. Okay. I still pose you you real world problems that you fail to address. 1. Keeping the action clean and 2. Keeping the shooter safe.

Questions you will have to answer when people actually may want to buy your.... Open bolt whatever. As someone earlier succinctly put it, you sir, are no salesman.

:munchin

[miclo18d]

judcargile has reported this post:

:boohoo

It did cross my mind to go ahead and delete the thread, however, I believe it can still have value by showing others how NOT to act when in our house.

Have a very SF day.

We haven't had one of those in awhile............

[Team Sergeant]

judcargile has reported this post:

:boohoo

It did cross my mind to go ahead and delete the thread, however, I believe it can still have value by showing others how NOT to act when in our house.

Have a very SF day.

Agree SGM. This thread has been moved.

[The Reaper]

This is what happens when you ignore the admins and staff.

TR