View Full Version : Rise of the Warrior Cop
An interesting question to ponder in today's world - Is it time to reconsider the militarization of American policing?
Richard
Rise of the Warrior Cop
WSJ, 19 July 2013
Part 1 of 2
On Jan. 4 of last year, a local narcotics strike force conducted a raid on the Ogden, Utah, home of Matthew David Stewart at 8:40 p.m. The 12 officers were acting on a tip from Mr. Stewart's former girlfriend, who said that he was growing marijuana in his basement. Mr. Stewart awoke, naked, to the sound of a battering ram taking down his door. Thinking that he was being invaded by criminals, as he later claimed, he grabbed his 9-millimeter Beretta pistol.
The police say that they knocked and identified themselves, though Mr. Stewart and his neighbors said they heard no such announcement. Mr. Stewart fired 31 rounds, the police more than 250. Six of the officers were wounded, and Officer Jared Francom was killed. Mr. Stewart himself was shot twice before he was arrested. He was charged with several crimes, including the murder of Officer Francom.
The police found 16 small marijuana plants in Mr. Stewart's basement. There was no evidence that Mr. Stewart, a U.S. military veteran with no prior criminal record, was selling marijuana. Mr. Stewart's father said that his son suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder and may have smoked the marijuana to self-medicate.
Early this year, the Ogden city council heard complaints from dozens of citizens about the way drug warrants are served in the city. As for Mr. Stewart, his trial was scheduled for next April, and prosecutors were seeking the death penalty. But after losing a hearing last May on the legality of the search warrant, Mr. Stewart hanged himself in his jail cell.
The police tactics at issue in the Stewart case are no anomaly. Since the 1960s, in response to a range of perceived threats, law-enforcement agencies across the U.S., at every level of government, have been blurring the line between police officer and soldier. Driven by martial rhetoric and the availability of military-style equipment—from bayonets and M-16 rifles to armored personnel carriers—American police forces have often adopted a mind-set previously reserved for the battlefield. The war on drugs and, more recently, post-9/11 antiterrorism efforts have created a new figure on the U.S. scene: the warrior cop—armed to the teeth, ready to deal harshly with targeted wrongdoers, and a growing threat to familiar American liberties.
The acronym SWAT stands for Special Weapons and Tactics. Such police units are trained in methods similar to those used by the special forces in the military. They learn to break into homes with battering rams and to use incendiary devices called flashbang grenades, which are designed to blind and deafen anyone nearby. Their usual aim is to "clear" a building—that is, to remove any threats and distractions (including pets) and to subdue the occupants as quickly as possible.
The country's first official SWAT team started in the late 1960s in Los Angeles. By 1975, there were approximately 500 such units. Today, there are thousands. According to surveys conducted by the criminologist Peter Kraska of Eastern Kentucky University, just 13% of towns between 25,000 and 50,000 people had a SWAT team in 1983. By 2005, the figure was up to 80%.
The number of raids conducted by SWAT-like police units has grown accordingly. In the 1970s, there were just a few hundred a year; by the early 1980s, there were some 3,000 a year. In 2005 (the last year for which Dr. Kraska collected data), there were approximately 50,000 raids.
A number of federal agencies also now have their own SWAT teams, including the Fish & Wildlife Service, NASA and the Department of the Interior. In 2011, the Department of Education's SWAT team bungled a raid on a woman who was initially reported to be under investigation for not paying her student loans, though the agency later said she was suspected of defrauding the federal student loan program.
The details of the case aside, the story generated headlines because of the revelation that the Department of Education had such a unit. None of these federal departments has responded to my requests for information about why they consider such high-powered military-style teams necessary.
Americans have long been wary of using the military for domestic policing. Concerns about potential abuse date back to the creation of the Constitution, when the founders worried about standing armies and the intimidation of the people at large by an overzealous executive, who might choose to follow the unhappy precedents set by Europe's emperors and monarchs.
The idea for the first SWAT team in Los Angeles arose during the domestic strife and civil unrest of the mid-1960s. Daryl Gates, then an inspector with the Los Angeles Police Department, had grown frustrated with his department's inability to respond effectively to incidents like the 1965 Watts riots. So his thoughts turned to the military. He was drawn in particular to Marine Special Forces and began to envision an elite group of police officers who could respond in a similar manner to dangerous domestic disturbances.
Mr. Gates initially had difficulty getting his idea accepted. Los Angeles Police Chief William Parker thought the concept risked a breach in the divide between the military and law enforcement. But with the arrival of a new chief, Thomas Reddin, in 1966, Mr. Gates got the green light to start training a unit. By 1969, his SWAT team was ready for its maiden raid against a holdout cell of the Black Panthers.
At about the same time, President Richard Nixon was declaring war on drugs. Among the new, tough-minded law-enforcement measures included in this campaign was the no-knock raid—a policy that allowed drug cops to break into homes without the traditional knock and announcement. After fierce debate, Congress passed a bill authorizing no-knock raids for federal narcotics agents in 1970.
Over the next several years, stories emerged of federal agents breaking down the doors of private homes (often without a warrant) and terrorizing innocent citizens and families. Congress repealed the no-knock law in 1974, but the policy would soon make a comeback (without congressional authorization).
During the Reagan administration, SWAT-team methods converged with the drug war. By the end of the 1980s, joint task forces brought together police officers and soldiers for drug interdiction. National Guard helicopters and U-2 spy planes flew the California skies in search of marijuana plants. When suspects were identified, battle-clad troops from the National Guard, the DEA and other federal and local law enforcement agencies would swoop in to eradicate the plants and capture the people growing them.
Advocates of these tactics said that drug dealers were acquiring ever bigger weapons and the police needed to stay a step ahead in the arms race. There were indeed a few high-profile incidents in which police were outgunned, but no data exist suggesting that it was a widespread problem. A study done in 1991 by the libertarian-leaning Independence Institute found that less than one-eighth of 1% of homicides in the U.S. were committed with a military-grade weapon. Subsequent studies by the Justice Department in 1995 and the National Institute for Justice in 2004 came to similar conclusions: The overwhelming majority of serious crimes are committed with handguns, and not particularly powerful ones.
The new century brought the war on terror and, with it, new rationales and new resources for militarizing police forces. According to the Center for Investigative Reporting, the Department of Homeland Security has handed out $35 billion in grants since its creation in 2002, with much of the money going to purchase military gear such as armored personnel carriers. In 2011 alone, a Pentagon program for bolstering the capabilities of local law enforcement gave away $500 million of equipment, an all-time high.
The past decade also has seen an alarming degree of mission creep for U.S. SWAT teams. When the craze for poker kicked into high gear, a number of police departments responded by deploying SWAT teams to raid games in garages, basements and VFW halls where illegal gambling was suspected. According to news reports and conversations with poker organizations, there have been dozens of these raids, in cities such as Baltimore, Charleston, S.C., and Dallas.
(Cont'd)
Rise of the Warrior Cop
WSJ, 19 July 2013
Part 2 of 2
In 2006, 38-year-old optometrist Sal Culosi was shot and killed by a Fairfax County, Va., SWAT officer. The investigation began when an undercover detective overheard Mr. Culosi wagering on college football games with some buddies at a bar. The department sent a SWAT team after Mr. Culosi, who had no prior criminal record or any history of violence. As the SWAT team descended, one officer fired a single bullet that pierced Mr. Culosi's heart. The police say that the shot was an accident. Mr. Culosi's family suspects the officer saw Mr. Culosi reaching for his cellphone and thought he had a gun.
Assault-style raids have even been used in recent years to enforce regulatory law. Armed federal agents from the Fish & Wildlife Service raided the floor of the Gibson Guitar factory in Nashville in 2009, on suspicion of using hardwoods that had been illegally harvested in Madagascar. Gibson settled in 2012, paying a $300,000 fine and admitting to violating the Lacey Act. In 2010, the police department in New Haven, Conn., sent its SWAT team to raid a bar where police believed there was underage drinking. For sheer absurdity, it is hard to beat the 2006 story about the Tibetan monks who had overstayed their visas while visiting America on a peace mission. In Iowa, the hapless holy men were apprehended by a SWAT team in full gear.
Unfortunately, the activities of aggressive, heavily armed SWAT units often result in needless bloodshed: Innocent bystanders have lost their lives and so, too, have police officers who were thought to be assailants and were fired on, as (allegedly) in the case of Matthew David Stewart.
In my own research, I have collected over 50 examples in which innocent people were killed in raids to enforce warrants for crimes that are either nonviolent or consensual (that is, crimes such as drug use or gambling, in which all parties participate voluntarily). These victims were bystanders, or the police later found no evidence of the crime for which the victim was being investigated. They include Katherine Johnston, a 92-year-old woman killed by an Atlanta narcotics team acting on a bad tip from an informant in 2006; Alberto Sepulveda, an 11-year-old accidentally shot by a California SWAT officer during a 2000 drug raid; and Eurie Stamps, killed in a 2011 raid on his home in Framingham, Mass., when an officer says his gun mistakenly discharged. Mr. Stamps wasn't a suspect in the investigation.
What would it take to dial back such excessive police measures? The obvious place to start would be ending the federal grants that encourage police forces to acquire gear that is more appropriate for the battlefield. Beyond that, it is crucial to change the culture of militarization in American law enforcement.
Consider today's police recruitment videos (widely available on YouTube), which often feature cops rappelling from helicopters, shooting big guns, kicking down doors and tackling suspects. Such campaigns embody an American policing culture that has become too isolated, confrontational and militaristic, and they tend to attract recruits for the wrong reasons.
If you browse online police discussion boards, or chat with younger cops today, you will often encounter some version of the phrase, "Whatever I need to do to get home safe." It is a sentiment that suggests that every interaction with a citizen may be the officer's last. Nor does it help when political leaders lend support to this militaristic self-image, as New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg did in 2011 by declaring, "I have my own army in the NYPD—the seventh largest army in the world."
The motivation of the average American cop should not focus on just making it to the end of his shift. The LAPD may have given us the first SWAT team, but its motto is still exactly the right ideal for American police officers: To protect and serve.
SWAT teams have their place, of course, but they should be saved for those relatively rare situations when police-initiated violence is the only hope to prevent the loss of life. They certainly have no place as modern-day vice squads.
Many longtime and retired law-enforcement officers have told me of their worry that the trend toward militarization is too far gone. Those who think there is still a chance at reform tend to embrace the idea of community policing, an approach that depends more on civil society than on brute force.
In this very different view of policing, cops walk beats, interact with citizens and consider themselves part of the neighborhoods they patrol—and therefore have a stake in those communities. It's all about a baton-twirling "Officer Friendly" rather than a Taser-toting RoboCop.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323848804578608040780519904.html?m od=WSJ_hpp_LEFTTopStories
Makes me nostalgic for the days we didn't even have a lock on the door to our house. There was never any need.
Things started changing right around the time LBJ came into power.
Thought that was a well done piece.
So where do we draw the line? NYC was able to turn around violent crime without the use of military weapons and tactics.
Maybe it is a use it because we got it syndrome like the NSA collecting info because they can. Is it a mentality that we need to turn back around?
Go back to the "Protect and Serve" that is still the motto of many police departments despite the few Supreme Court rulings stating the police do not have a duty.
:munchin
Ghost_Team
07-21-2013, 09:38
I read this piece yesterday, and I came to the conclusion that the police are basically looking for a fight when these raids are executed. You know, CQB is just so sexy and all.
It would make more sense to me that since the police control the roads, they should set up surveillance, catch the guy as he is leaving his driveway, and then execute their search warrant as opposed to in the middle of the night. You can ask the suspect if there is anyone else home, and glean operational intel prior to kicking down the door. I realize that there will be circumstances that call for nighttime raids, but given the mistakes that are being made I would think that the police would work to mitigate the errors, especially if there is a chance you are hitting the wrong house or have possibly bad intel.
Since I have nothing to hide and know I am not wanted for anything (well, the wife wants me for housework among other things), I know I would react alot differently being pulled over by a black and white as opposed to a 3am door kicking session executed by a bunch of heavily armed Type A personalities in mixed uniforms screaming commands at me.
You can control more of the environment (to include a time and place of your choosing, as well as cutting down on unknown factors such as building layout and number of potential hostiles) with an ambush versus a siege. An ambush also severely limits the options of the bad guy if executed correctly.
... the Department of Education's SWAT team bungled a raid on a woman who was initially reported to be under investigation for not paying her student loans, though the agency later said she was suspected of defrauding the federal student loan program.
Wait .... WHAT !?!?!?!
The Dept of Education has a SWAT team ????!!!
Next you'll be telling me, the Library of Congress has a SWAT team. Best to get that over due book back .... ASAP. :eek:
Good article.
With home invasions a known entity who wouldn't react to your front door being smashed in.
If I'm dead asleep am I going to hear "Police".....and in my own home would I believe it really is the Police and not a ruse.
Real crooks get it and may go dormant as they know the Police have reason to be there....law abiding citizens do not.
SWAT is used way too much and is not based upon the lethality of the criminal or crime....it is used too much because the SWAT elements look for work to remain relevant.
The Reaper
07-21-2013, 10:21
The real problem is that when the only tool you have is a hammer, all problems tend to look like nails.
The SWAT teams are not cheap.
They (and their equipment and training) have to be justified by utilization.
So instead of Officer Friendly stopping by for a chat, or asking you to come down to the station house, a dozen heavily armed intruders (who have obtained a no-notice warrant), kick in your door at zero dark thirty, cuff everyone up who has survived, and go about trashing your home.
As most communities have few scenarios where a SWAT team would be required, they have been assigned additional duties to include warrant service and raids for less and less severe crimes.
Criminals have adopted this same MO and use it, frequently under the guise of being police, to conduct home invasions.
Resist, and you run the chance of being incarcerated, should you survive.
Compound this with the emerging harassment technique of calling in an anonymous report on someone you dislike in hopes of targeting them for a paramilitary assault on their home or place of business. Nothing like seeing a couple of dozen heavily-armed officers descending to kick in the door and dragging off a potential rival, even if they aren't guilty, right?
LAPD started the SWAT concept with highly trained individuals serving a specific purpose in a huge metropolitan area. Today, most small towns with 10,000 residents or more have some sort of tactical team of dubious qualifications. And yes, to a large extent, the Federal money has a lot to do with it.
I believe that we should qualify and license SWAT teams and limit their employment to serious offenses requiring a paramilitary effort.
TR
It would make more sense to me that since the police control the roads, they should set up surveillance, catch the guy as he is leaving his driveway, and then execute their search warrant as opposed to in the middle of the night.
LAPD, kinda, sorta, did this under Chief Gates. I used to listen, on a scanner, to them trailing bad guys with a Bell 47 and 4 cars: one ahead, one behind, and 2 flanking. They would follow the guy for hours until he went to roost. A couple of hours would go by while they secured the warrant. When they showed up, invariably, he'd be gone. They NEVER left anyone behind to make sure that the BG stayed at the location. :rolleyes: They were ordered by a court ruling, after the Rodney King incident, to disband this unit. Great idea poorly executed.
Pat
Interesting story from not the most unbiased source:
Florida Nurse Terrorized by US Marshals in Warrantless Raid (http://www.infowars.com/florida-nurse-terrorized-by-us-marshals/)
SpikedBuck
07-21-2013, 11:28
There is something to be said about training the handlers/officials, on when/how to employ these assets.
Interesting article. Too much use of these type of tactics in situations were there was no reason for the amount of force used. Also the judges that sign warrants need to be held accountable for the reason the allowed a no knock warrant. Unfortunately these tactics could quickly escalate a situation that could have been handled with simple police procedures. As I recall it wasn't all the cops in body armor and assault weapons that found the Boston bomber, but a home owner smoking a cigarette in his yard
Interesting story from not the most unbiased source:
Florida Nurse Terrorized by US Marshals in Warrantless Raid (http://www.infowars.com/florida-nurse-terrorized-by-us-marshals/)
This is an incredible abuse of power, I would not have opened my door either, the marhsals interview is not too flattering for him.
TR, great response regarding SWATs employment.
Stingray
07-21-2013, 14:32
The real problem is that when the only tool you have is a hammer, all problems tend to look like nails.
The SWAT teams are not cheap.
They (and their equipment and training) have to be justified by utilization.
I believe that we should qualify and license SWAT teams and limit their employment to serious offenses requiring a paramilitary effort.
TR
Exellent hammer and nail analogy.
I have trained with SWAT teams from all over my region. They range from full-time teams to “throw together” teams. There is a big difference in the two.
Where I see the biggest chance for misuse is when either the team is new or the Command is new. The team being new, or a new focus on it’s use, is just like you said Sir. They have invested a good deal of money making the team operational. Now they are trying to justify their investment. The team has arrested x felons, x lbs of dope, etc. And new Commanders trying to make a name are a bit of problem. But I think the general culture of the department plays a big role in the misuse by Command. The agency who operates aggressively will give an aggressive Commander more latitude to run aggressively.
The professional teams have “Threat Assessment” or “Risk Matrix”tools that determine if the use of SWAT is approved. This helps minimize the influence of overly aggressive Command staff.
Just my .02
Sincerely,
From a retired Cop friend
"These guys are operating on a Movie sense of enforcement.
You read the scenario here.
The better way:
1. Show up in daylight.
2. Come in a police uniform, not like you were going into Fallujah.
3. Make it clear that you have a warrant. (Means a Judge was involved)
4. Have 3 or 4 people, so that one can keep an eye on the person whose house is being searched.
-----
Coming in the dead of night is what burglars do.
This guys "Murder" charge will result in a Not Guilty-- because Self Defense is a popular concept in Utah
UWOA (RIP)
07-21-2013, 21:50
The real problem is that when the only tool you have is a hammer, all problems tend to look like nails.
The SWAT teams are not cheap.
They (and their equipment and training) have to be justified by utilization.
So instead of Officer Friendly stopping by for a chat, or asking you to come down to the station house, a dozen heavily armed intruders (who have obtained a no-notice warrant), kick in your door at zero dark thirty, cuff everyone up who has survived, and go about trashing your home.
As most communities have few scenarios where a SWAT team would be required, they have been assigned additional duties to include warrant service and raids for less and less severe crimes.
Criminals have adopted this same MO and use it, frequently under the guise of being police, to conduct home invasions.
Resist, and you run the chance of being incarcerated, should you survive.
Compound this with the emerging harassment technique of calling in an anonymous report on someone you dislike in hopes of targeting them for a paramilitary assault on their home or place of business. Nothing like seeing a couple of dozen heavily-armed officers descending to kick in the door and dragging off a potential rival, even if they aren't guilty, right?
LAPD started the SWAT concept with highly trained individuals serving a specific purpose in a huge metropolitan area. Today, most small towns with 10,000 residents or more have some sort of tactical team of dubious qualifications. And yes, to a large extent, the Federal money has a lot to do with it.
I believe that we should qualify and license SWAT teams and limit their employment to serious offenses requiring a paramilitary effort.
TR
Not necessarily so.
I started the SWAT team for my agency in 1980; prior to that the only unit of tactical significance was a counter-sniper team. My department sent an officer from the training section to two different SWAT schools, one in Texas, the other in Florida. When he came back he knew he still didn't have the expertise to train and operate a team. He asked me to help. I told him I would, but only if I could also go through the course/vetting process. He agreed.
It took three months to prepare, but in the end although we had five trainers running the course (including me when I wasn't acting as a student), I taught over fifty percent of the course, running it in most respects like a mini-Ranger school doing things like running a mile in an M-17 protective mask because they have to be able to fight hand-to-hand wearing it.
The main difference between my agency's team and everybody else's ... and still is to a great extent from what I've seen ... is that we run a TOC staffed only by SWAT personnel for every operation. When you combine the intelligence we gather before and during mission execution with the discipline we developed during the training phase (I can place a man in a position in sub-zero temperatures and come back six hours later and know he'll be in the exact same position, not down at the donut shop) we could operate where others wouldn't expect us, make entries in unexpected places (I taught explosive entry to central Indiana tactical units that were involved in security for the Tenth Pan American Games in Indianapolis in 1986 ... long before other non-federal agencies ever contemplated such techniques.) to resolve incidents with minimum injuries and/or loss of life.
I taught them to think outside the box ... and that their most formidable weapon was their brain ... not the 'toys'. So ... it was not only Special Weapons, but also Special Tactics, military in style, conditioned by a different set of rules of engagement ... the rules captured in state statute, federal code and the state and federal constitutions.
Bottom line: whether it was SWAT or regular street operations I always preached that you treat everyone like a million bucks, the only difference was that you always had a plan to kill'em (that you hopefully didn't have to execute); that was the essential element of being prepared to protect and serve.
I had six police action shootings during my thirty-four year law enforcement career, but only one occurred during a SWAT operation.
.
Team Sergeant
07-22-2013, 07:01
I've trained a few SWAT teams and police snipers, that said anyone waking me up at 3:00 AM by knocking down my door had better made peace with their maker before hand as I will do my best to kill them all.
As was mentioned that was extremely excessive force for that situation, and as was also mentioned, the individual should have been met on the street, in broad daylight and arrested.
There is no way anyone would have heard "POLICE" in a dead sleep, the cops know it and we know it. Especially when many bedrooms are opposite the front door. The next noise heard is the front door coming down, yeah, that would get someone's attention, in a very bad way. And those $800 gun lights attached to every swat team members weapon and shined in the face of the victim would make it impossible to identify a police uniform.
There's only one reason for the police to employ a SWAT team, for high risk warrants, this was not a high risk warrant (I don't care if they say it was.... that's BS.). And from reading the article it was a poorly trained team, twelve against one and he wounds half and one is dead. (Not having read the after action report I would venture to say the individual did not do all the wounding and might not have killed the officer either, but he wound up dead anyway, friendly fire maybe, only the police know, 39 shots vs. 250 by police, makes one wonder.)
How well trained are most cops when it comes to shooting situations, not very. Remember the 20 people wounded recently on the streets of NYC when two NYC cops opened fire on one individual? All 20 (I don't remember the exact number) were shot by those two cops, only one was a bad-guy. Remember the recent man-hunt in Calif for the police officer that went on a killing spree? How many cops shot innocent people on that hunt?
I take offense to the Warrior Cop title, cops are not "warriors", real warriors are trained to kill the enemy, cops are NOT trained to kill the enemy but to "defend" themselves while effecting an arrest.
As this swat team found out the hard way, not everyone is going to cower when their door gets busted down in the dead of the night. This was IMO a very bad shoot and a very bad idea to start with.
Save the swat teams for the bank robbers and serial killers, some guy with a few pot plants does not justify a swat team arrest.
"Warrior cops", they're joking right......
That article is so full of facts:rolleyes: It takes you down the road to make you believe that it was a SWAT Entry but it was not. It was a bunch of officers from different agencies composed of a narcotices task force. I guess Strike Force sounds so much cooler and no one is fact checking the writer of the article.
The SWAT word is so thrown out there just like the word Special Forces.
UWOA (RIP)
07-22-2013, 10:05
I've trained a few SWAT teams and police snipers, that said anyone waking me up at 3:00 AM by knocking down my door had better made peace with their maker before hand as I will do my best to kill them all.
As was mentioned that was extremely excessive force for that situation, and as was also mentioned, the individual should have been met on the street, in broad daylight and arrested.
There is no way anyone would have heard "POLICE" in a dead sleep, the cops know it and we know it. Especially when many bedrooms are opposite the front door. The next noise heard is the front door coming down, yeah, that would get someone's attention, in a very bad way. And those $800 gun lights attached to every swat team members weapon and shined in the face of the victim would make it impossible to identify a police uniform.
There's only one reason for the police to employ a SWAT team, for high risk warrants, this was not a high risk warrant (I don't care if they say it was.... that's BS.). And from reading the article it was a poorly trained team, twelve against one and he wounds half and one is dead. (Not having read the after action report I would venture to say the individual did not do all the wounding and might not have killed the officer either, but he wound up dead anyway, friendly fire maybe, only the police know, 39 shots vs. 250 by police, makes one wonder.)
How well trained are most cops when it comes to shooting situations, not very. Remember the 20 people wounded recently on the streets of NYC when two NYC cops opened fire on one individual? All 20 (I don't remember the exact number) were shot by those two cops, only one was a bad-guy. Remember the recent man-hunt in Calif for the police officer that went on a killing spree? How many cops shot innocent people on that hunt?
I take offense to the Warrior Cop title, cops are not "warriors", real warriors are trained to kill the enemy, cops are NOT trained to kill the enemy but to "defend" themselves while effecting an arrest.
As this swat team found out the hard way, not everyone is going to cower when their door gets busted down in the dead of the night. This was IMO a very bad shoot and a very bad idea to start with.
Save the swat teams for the bank robbers and serial killers, some guy with a few pot plants does not justify a swat team arrest.
"Warrior cops", they're joking right......
I have to agree with TS. No knock warrant service is usually reserved for drug evidence recovery ... and I'm no big fan of those even though I worked on a narcotics task force for the FBI (never did one). Through first hand observation I've learned that narcotics laws don't work. It's just a big game with enforcement making it big business.
If you don't have that requirement then you don't have that kind of situation.
I would also make the observation that while LEOs are not warriors, the skill sets are very similar -- that's why I became one, and that's why folks like TS are asked to train them. It's the ROE that are very different -- and includes defending others as well as one's self ... the protect part of "protect and serve."
One final note, as a LEO you can't protect anybody if you get dead ... so when I train LEOs I emphasize situational awareness so they don't get dead ... and that, with marksmanship, goes a long way toward winning a gunfight.
.
Streck-Fu
07-22-2013, 10:36
No knock warrant service is usually reserved for drug evidence recovery ...
It seems that the threshold for drug evidence is getting pretty low. There seem to be increasing reporting of arrested offenders turning 'witness' and giving up low level users to appease the arresting/investigating officers who are more than happy to deploy SWAT/tactical teams under the guise that it is a drug bust.
It becomes especially fucked up when they invite Reality TV crews along for the ride....
Columbia, MO SWAT :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WF2nM9wsBYs
News article: LINK (http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/crime/family-questions-swat-drug-search-that-led-to-dog-s/article_306f3455-a16b-5d80-b9eb-5a467aff891c.html)
He plead guilty to misdemeanor possession of paraphernalia and released with a $300 fine....
This is a glaring example of what SWAT/Tactical Teams should not be....
Team Sergeant
07-22-2013, 10:56
That article is so full of facts:rolleyes: It takes you down the road to make you believe that it was a SWAT Entry but it was not. It was a bunch of officers from different agencies composed of a narcotices task force. I guess Strike Force sounds so much cooler and no one is fact checking the writer of the article.
The SWAT word is so thrown out there just like the word Special Forces.
You are correct, but it doesn't matter to me what it's makeup, it was 12 heavily armed LEO's making entry into a home that, IMO, was not justified given the circumstances.
I've discussed the militarization of American Law Enforcement before and it needs to end. MRAPS, Drones, machineguns, it needs to end.
But ... But .... who will save the children ???
:confused: :eek:
TacOfficer
07-22-2013, 14:28
Response to SWAT Teams.
"A number of federal agencies also now have their own SWAT teams, including the Fish & Wildlife Service, NASA and the Department of the Interior."
I do wonder why the Departments of Education and Interior need a SWAT team, but I can understand why Fish & Wildlife Service and NASA has them.
Fish and wildlife are tasked with apprehending poachers, who are typically armed. NASA has many high value targets for terrorists.
SWAT teams and the like are an essential part of today's Law-enforcement community. The argument that SWAT teams in small communities are not necessary has no merit. Small communities such as Columbine, Aurora, and Newtown to name a few give fresh examples why these "soft targets" need a response team to address heavily armed offenders. Barney Fife with one bullet in his pocket for his revolver and a kind thought will not stop an offender that has prepared with semi automatic carbines, pistols with large capacity magazines and body armor. Boston's offenders armed with IEDs, attacked hundreds then ambushed and killed an officer.
Domestic terrorism is no longer a hypothetical nor abstract idea. It's a reality that has to be addressed as a constant threat.
"Federal Law prohibits military personnel from enforcing the law within the United States except as expressly authorized by the Constitution or an act of Congress"
Response teams fill the void that exist between patrol officers and the military. The mind set of officers trained to meet these domestic threats are couched in Law and the Use of Force model more appropriate for addressing these attacks within our communities. Military leaders have related that combat Rules of Engagement are not suited for this environment.
Like anything else, the quality of service is only as good as the training and material. Unfortunately training is a rarer commodity than material. Smaller communities utilize their officers in multiple roles that limit their availability to train. Larger departments facing budget woes, have the ability to field dedicated teams but have manpower shortages that would otherwise enable appropriate training for first responders. Every community, large or small deserves officers that are equipped and trained to serve and protect.
Lack of sufficient training and manpower does not negate the need. It does increase the potential for tragedies and liability. All too often politicians place a higher priority on placating those seeking handouts with our taxes, than enabling first responders to train and prepare to meet the challenges of today's threats.
....................Your post................
Excuse me.
NASA needs a SWAT Team because of all it's high value targets? Where is the NASA SWAT Team located? Where are the high value targets located? I'll bet most of the high value targets are located a great distance from the SWAT Team.
Fish & Wildlife? You've got to be kidding. Again, is the officer on the beat driving around with one in his pocket? I don't think so.
Everybody needs a SWAT Team?
Don't think so. You get one you want to use it - as we can see from the basic point of this thread.
SWAT Teams have gone way beyond their mission while looking for a job.
Response to SWAT Teams.
SWAT teams and the like are an essential part of today's Law-enforcement community. The argument that SWAT teams in small communities are not necessary has no merit. Small communities such as Columbine, Aurora, and Newtown to name a few give fresh examples why these "soft targets" need a response team to address heavily armed offenders. Barney Fife with one bullet in his pocket for his revolver and a kind thought will not stop an offender that has prepared with semi automatic carbines, pistols with large capacity magazines and body armor. Boston's offenders armed with IEDs, attacked hundreds then ambushed and killed an officer...
...Response teams fill the void that exist between patrol officers and the military. The mind set of officers trained to meet these domestic threats are couched in Law and the Use of Force model more appropriate for addressing these attacks within our communities. Military leaders have related that combat Rules of Engagement are not suited for this environment.
What is the average duration of an active-shooter situation? What is the average response time for law enforcement?
ddoering
07-22-2013, 15:18
SWAT teams allow the Feds to get around that pesky Constitutional constraint about using the military against Americans on US soil.
Team Sergeant
07-22-2013, 15:37
If some dude told me at a bar that he was a member of the Department of Education's SWAT team, I would have peed my pants laughing.......
And now that I know there actually is a Department of Education SWAT team, I'd still pee my pants laughing if someone told me they were a member.......
The joke is on us, we're paying for this incompetence.......
You've obviously drunk the kool aid. Let me guess, you're on a SWAT team?
You are correct, but it doesn't matter to me what it's makeup, it was 12 heavily armed LEO's making entry into a home that, IMO, was not justified given the circumstances.
I've discussed the militarization of American Law Enforcement before and it needs to end. MRAPS, Drones, machineguns, it needs to end.
That's a general statement, we in my agency nor does the surrounding agencies don't have Drones, MRAPs, and machine guns.
As for making that entry, it's all about leadership and that's in every profession. I can point out countless bad leadership calls within our own Regiment.
What is the average duration of an active-shooter situation? What is the average response time for law enforcement?
Too many variables go into that. Where it happens, size of department, time of day etc.
Large cities can have officers on scene in seconds depending on time (commute traffic, baseball games, foot ball games, etc). Smaller agencies will have longer response times.
.......Large cities can have officers on scene in seconds depending on time (commute traffic, baseball games, foot ball games, etc). Smaller agencies will have longer response times.
Did you mean seconds? Or more like minutes for a response?
It takes me about 2 minutes to get the one mile to Food Lion. Granted I don't have a Blue Light - but everybody has to get to the car, crank it up, back it up (notice all the cops in my neighborhood don't back into their driveway) and get rolling then turn in and stop.
Did you mean seconds? Or more like minutes for a response?
It takes me about 2 minutes to get the one mile to Food Lion. Granted I don't have a Blue Light - but everybody has to get to the car, crank it up, back it up (notice all the cops in my neighborhood don't back into their driveway) and get rolling then turn in and stop.
Seconds as in police officer onviews the incident vs being dispatched. During one of our big weekend events, police officers onviewed multiple shootings and caught the suspects since officers were on scene in seconds.
Seconds as in police officer onviews the incident vs being dispatched. During one of our big weekend events, police officers onviewed multiple shootings and caught the suspects since officers were on scene in seconds.
Could you explain to me what "onviews the incident" means? To me it sounds like they were prepositioned because of something happening.
Could you explain to me what "onviews the incident" means? To me it sounds like they were prepositioned because of something happening.
On view is a term that we (my city) uses when an officer, or deputy, (uniformed or plain clothes) and Inspectors see's something and calls it on on a radio vs being dispatched.
On view is a term that we (my city) uses when an officer, or deputy, (uniformed or plain clothes) and Inspectors see's something and calls it on on a radio vs being dispatched.
Oh, I see. So what % of the total crimes in your area are "on viewed".
Oh, I see. So what % of the total crimes in your area are "on viewed".
Don't know. I'm not on patrol anymore and I haven't had to look at the stats in years. We have a data base for crimestats by districts. Each of our 10 districts and Airport will have different stats based upon population density, officers, issues, etc. The more busier districts will have more on view incidents vs the slower districts.
I just wanted to know how well "on viewed" stats fit in with SWAT Team use.
Seems to me there would need to be a SWAT Team every 10 blocks or so.
With officers on duty every police department is going to have "on viewed" incidents.
But I'm willing to bet "on viewed" is a very small percentage of total crimes in any given city.
And most of the major events/perps named in this thread were not "on viewed".
I just wanted to know how well "on viewed" stats fit in with SWAT Team use.
Seems to me there would need to be a SWAT Team every 10 blocks or so.
With officers on duty every police department is going to have "on viewed" incidents.
But I'm willing to bet "on viewed" is a very small percentage of total crimes in any given city.
And most of the major events/perps named in this thread were not "on viewed".
That's a good question. Are you talking about full time SWAT Units, Part time, or regional or agencies with a combo? Most major cities have a matrix or risk assessment that dictates when SWAT usage is covered. When I was on the part time team, I on viewed lots of stuff and that was because SWAT was a collotoral assignement and my main assignment was patrol. Being on the full time SWAT Platoon and a SWAT Team Leader, I don't on view anything since my job scope is different.
Of course every dept will have on view incidents, my point and I'm willing to bet is the larger agencies will have the staffing and resources to on view more than smaller agencies.
Here in Colorado we have the dubious honor of suffering through two of the worst mass shootings in U.S. history; Columbine H.S. and the Aurora Theater shooting.
At Columbine, PD was one scene within a few minutes, but did not go inside the building. They waited for SWAT to show up, before entering the building. This gave the two shooters (I refuse to mention their names, or any other mass casualty shooter, giving them the fame they crave) time to enter the library and inflict the most damage. Once SWAT arrived on scene and penetrated the building, did the two shooters then take their own lives.
It was because of this incident and the incident at Platte Valley H.S. in Baily, that PDs here in Colorado (don't know about the rest of the country) changed their tactics when involved in an active shooter incident.
Now instead of waiting on SWAT, LEOS are now trained/given the green light to enter the building/area and neutralize the shooter, if possible. This was the case in Aurora.
Granted, the LEO station was less than two miles away from the theater, and when the first 911 calls came in, PD was on scene in a matter of minutes. They surrounded the building and had actually entered the theater, but had to pull back out due to the home made "gas" that that shooter had deployed.
This shooter hadn't realized that PD would be on scene as quickly as they were, seeing that he hoped that his improvised explosives that he had in his apt. would have distracted the PD enough that he could have gotten away, as was almost the case. He in fact, almost did get away. He had just exited the theater out the back and was noticed by several LEOs who were securing the back. The LEOs thought he was SWAT, seeing that he (the shooter) was dressed as one; tactical clothing, body armor, k-pot, gas mask, ect. It wasn't until one of the LEOS radioed command asking if SWAT was on scene, that they were told that SWAT hadn't even left the station. It was then that the LEOs in the back did a 180 and secure the shooter.
The problem with the Aurora theater incident was coordinating the other responding assets (EMS and Fire).
IMO ... SWAT teams are over rated. Yes, they provide a valuable asset to the mix, but to use them as they have been/are being used is just short of the U.S. becoming a militaristic country.
As has been mentioned, NASA, Dept. of Fish and Game and the Education Dept ( :rolleyes: ) as well as several other govt. depts. all have SWAT teams. This not only borders on the absurd, but crosses into the realm of, "You've got to be fucking kidding me". Next thing you know, anyone who is on a PDs SWAT team will want to be wearing berets.
The Reaper
07-22-2013, 20:48
Here in Colorado we have the dubious honor of suffering through two of the worst mass shootings in U.S. history; Columbine H.S. and the Aurora Theater shooting.
At Columbine, PD was one scene within a few minutes, but did not go inside the building. They waited for SWAT to show up, before entering the building. This gave the two shooters (I refuse to mention their names, or any other mass casualty shooter, giving them the fame they crave) time to enter the library and inflict the most damage. Once SWAT arrived on scene and penetrated the building, did the two shooters then take their own lives.
It was because of this incident and the incident at Platte Valley H.S. in Baily, that PDs here in Colorado (don't know about the rest of the country) changed their tactics when involved in an active shooter incident.
Now instead of waiting on SWAT, LEOS are now trained/given the green light to enter the building/area and neutralize the shooter, if possible. This was the case in Aurora.
Granted, the LEO station was less than two miles away from the theater, and when the first 911 calls came in, PD was on scene in a matter of minutes. They surrounded the building and had actually entered the theater, but had to pull back out due to the home made "gas" that that shooter had deployed.
This shooter hadn't realized that PD would be on scene as quickly as they were, seeing that he hoped that his improvised explosives that he had in his apt. would have distracted the PD enough that he could have gotten away, as was almost the case. He in fact, almost did get away. He had just exited the theater out the back and was noticed by several LEOs who were securing the back. The LEOs thought he was SWAT, seeing that he (the shooter) was dressed as one; tactical clothing, body armor, k-pot, gas mask, ect. It wasn't until one of the LEOS radioed command asking if SWAT was on scene, that they were told that SWAT hadn't even left the station. It was then that the LEOs in the back did a 180 and secure the shooter.
The problem with the Aurora theater incident was coordinating the other responding assets (EMS and Fire).
IMO ... SWAT teams are over rated. Yes, they provide a valuable asset to the mix, but to use them as they have been/are being used is just short of the U.S. becoming a militaristic country.
As has been mentioned, NASA, Dept. of Fish and Game and the Education Dept ( :rolleyes: ) as well as several other govt. depts. all have SWAT teams. This not only borders on the absurd, but crosses into the realm of, "You've got to be fucking kidding me". Next thing you know, anyone who is on a PDs SWAT team will want to be wearing berets.
You left out the SRO, who was on the scene, exchanging a few rounds and then retreating to the parking lot.
LEOs, let me riddle you this.
We all know that judges issue warrants that they shouldn't, informants lie, as do ex-es, people make mistakes with addresses, departments like to use their tac teams, etc.
If you conduct a no knock at 0400 and breach my door, who is at fault if I grab my carbine and attempt to defend my family from an armed home invasion?
Several officers and my family or I could be killed.
Do you think this is in accordance with the Constitution and the concepts of freedom and liberty that this nation was founded on?
Is it wrongful to resist armed home invaders?
Let's say that someone you have crossed calls in a report that you are running a meth lab out of your home and that you are heavily armed at all times. You are probably unaware of this.
What would you do if your door were breached and armed intruders entered your home in the middle of the night, unannounced?
Would you be justified in using lethal force to defend your lives and property?
Why you and not me?
Citizens are being wrongfully killed by these teams and policies.
TR
I've discussed the militarization of American Law Enforcement before and it needs to end. MRAPS, Drones, machineguns, it needs to end.
I agree 100% Team Sergeant! Thank you for saying it out loud. This is something that I noticed years ago, and it bothered me; but most people I mentioned it to either didn't see it or did not understand the ramifications of what they were seeing.
The latest TV "example" of the warrior wannabes can be seen on the show, FLASHPOINT (on ION Television). This trend is very disturbing, especially when one considers the sort of "transformation" that we currently see in the U.S. I wish it would alarm more people because I don't like what I'm seeing. It does not bode well for the constitutional protections that so many have taken for granted.
And thank you, Richard, for the post.
Paragrouper
07-23-2013, 06:08
If the police are truly interested in doing "Whatever I need to do to get home safe," try knocking first.
Streck-Fu
07-23-2013, 06:17
If the police are truly interested in doing
..... try knocking first.
Doesn't get more simple than that.....
A big part of the problem is the attitude change from "To Serve and Protect" to "We owe it to ourselves to be sure to live at all costs".... No longer do police officers perceive their job as a public service; it is all about law enforcement (as already mentioned here).
This delta in attitude drives the wedge of perception between the public and the police. Citizens see every day that the police have the full backing of the agency and legal system such that any negligence is explained away as being in accordance with department policy or that the officer acted appropriately.....Lost is the priority of protecting the innocent. If something goes wrong, something else gets blamed....
Right up to the point that a dash cam video is released showing two officers conspiring to blame a third driver for the accident that the officer caused.....LINK (http://www.today.com/id/32266883/ns/today-today_news/t/tape-reveals-cops-tried-frame-her-crash/#.Ue52M234bAk)...The video given to the attorney's was edited and disciplinary action did not come about until the full video was released.
According to the tape, Officer Dewey Pressley took the lead in the plot, saying, “Well, I don’t lie and make things up ever because it’s wrong, but if I need to bend it a little to protect a cop, I’m gonna.”
He then tells another officer: “I will write the narrative out for you. I will tell you exactly how to word it so it can get him off the hook. You see the angle of her car? You see the way it’s like this? As far as I’m concerned, I am going to word it she is in the left-hand lane. We will do a little Walt Disney to protect the cop, because it wouldn’t matter because she was drunk anyway.”
Shit like this does not help perpetuate the claimed nobility of the profession....
I know, it's only a few bad apples but the Good Apples need to clean their own house .....
SWAT teams allow the Feds to get around that pesky Constitutional constraint about using the military against Americans on US soil.
I don't have any tinfoil hats; but the above thought by ddoering (QP) nails it succinctly.
Just out of curiosity, I wonder how many "SWAT" teams the DHS has? And although the threat of terrorism on U.S. soil is no longer a vague threat, can anyone tell me why our government apparently views returning veterans, Second Amendment supporters, pro-life advocates and Christians as more of a threat than the Muslim Brotherhood, who are desirous of “…eliminating and destroying Western civilization from within and ‘sabotaging’ its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and Allah’s religion is made victorious over all other religions". (from “An Explanatory Memorandum on the General Strategic Goal for the Brotherhood in North America”, written by Mohamed Akram, May 19, 1991) ? Just asking...
http://dailycaller.com/2013/05/17/homeland-security-guidelines-advise-deference-to-pro-sharia-muslim-supremacists/
...as more of a threat than the Muslim Brotherhood...
I think "more of" is a misstatement and that, based on our broad historical experience with home-grown terrorism, a more accurate term should be "as likely as" in the eintopf of threats we face on an on-going basis and can never discount.
http://terrorism.about.com/od/originshistory/a/US_Terrorism.htm
Richard
Wednesday, March 31, 2010
Police-involved shooting in P.V.
From Prairie Village: At approximately 0659 hours on March 31, 2010, Prairie Village Police Officers were dispatched to the 4300 block of W. 93rd Terrace in the Kenilworth apartment complex on a welfare check of a 47-year-old female. The subject had made suicidal and threatening comments to other law enforcement agencies this morning. Officers contacted the female but she refused to open her doors. The female barricaded the door, and continued to make threatening statements on scene.
At approximately 0945 hours, members of the Prairie Village Police Department Critical Incident Response Team attempted to take the female into custody. The female threatened the officers with a weapon and she was fatally shot. The Johnson County Officer Involved Shooting Team and Crime Lab are currently investigating the scene
Read more here: http://blogs.kansascity.com/crime_scene/2010/03/officerinvolved-shooting-in-prairie-village.html#storylink=cpy
The PV PD went to do a welfare check, the woman wouldn't open her door, the Officers called in, CIRT arrived, broke down the door and smoked the female occupant.
Supposedly the occupant came at the officers with a bat or knife when they breached the door and the officer that shot the occupant felt their life was in danger.
A fireman friend who's station responded has said it was 'fantaged up' and that 'The Story' of what actually happened varies depending on who you are talking to at the PD.
You left out the SRO, who was on the scene, exchanging a few rounds and then retreating to the parking lot.
LEOs, let me riddle you this.
We all know that judges issue warrants that they shouldn't, informants lie, as do ex-es, people make mistakes with addresses, departments like to use their tac teams, etc.
If you conduct a no knock at 0400 and breach my door, who is at fault if I grab my carbine and attempt to defend my family from an armed home invasion?
Several officers and my family or I could be killed.
Do you think this is in accordance with the Constitution and the concepts of freedom and liberty that this nation was founded on?
Is it wrongful to resist armed home invaders?
Let's say that someone you have crossed calls in a report that you are running a meth lab out of your home and that you are heavily armed at all times. You are probably unaware of this.
What would you do if your door were breached and armed intruders entered your home in the middle of the night, unannounced?
Would you be justified in using lethal force to defend your lives and property?
Why you and not me?
Citizens are being wrongfully killed by these teams and policies.
TR
First, is no knocks allowed in your state and what is the policy of the city agency that your live in regarding no knocks?
Second, if no knocks are allowed in your state and city, what is the procedure on how to obtain a no knock in the city that you live in?
We have no knocks in California and in the 7 years as a SWAT Team Leader for a major city, I've planned, executed and served hundreds of warrants to include no knocks and night servicable warrants. We have a matrix that defines what's a SWAT warrant or a patrol warrant. We have a diligent process on how we obtain no knock warrants since we are one of the most liberal cities in California and no knocks are rarely authorized. Just because we have a no knock warrant doesn't mean we do a no knock. I choose wether or not, we actually do a knock notice or not. IF we do a no knock, after it's all done, I've asked the people in the house, were you aware that it was the police and not a home invasion? I've yet had a person tell me "no, we did not know it was the police" Every person told me that they knew that it was the police, so we are making sure that people inside knows it's the police.
I understand that police agencies differ from agencies, cities, etc. Some agencies are squared away and others are crap just like in any profession. My two cents is that it boils down to leadership regardless of the agency.
First, is no knocks allowed in your state and what is the policy of the city agency that your live in regarding no knocks?
Second, if no knocks are allowed in your state and city, what is the procedure on how to obtain a no knock in the city that you live in?
We have no knocks in California and in the 7 years as a SWAT Team Leader for a major city, I've planned, executed and served hundreds of warrants to include no knocks and night servicable warrants. We have a matrix that defines what's a SWAT warrant or a patrol warrant. We have a diligent process on how we obtain no knock warrants since we are one of the most liberal cities in California and no knocks are rarely authorized. Just because we have a no knock warrant doesn't mean we do a no knock. I choose wether or not, we actually do a knock notice or not. IF we do a no knock, after it's all done, I've asked the people in the house, were you aware that it was the police and not a home invasion? I've yet had a person tell me "no, we did not know it was the police" Every person told me that they knew that it was the police, so we are making sure that people inside knows it's the police.
I understand that police agencies differ from agencies, cities, etc. Some agencies are squared away and others are crap just like in any profession. My two cents is that it boils down to leadership regardless of the agency.
Not trying be disrespectful but how many of those were at the wrong address? I'd venture probably none. Is it fair to assume that the occupants may have had an expectation that the police may one day be knocking down there door because they are knowingly committing a crime?
I think the point is that because I am not expecting the police to kick in my door because I'm not committing a crime I might not be so quick to be aware it is actually the police. There have been several instances where the wrong house has been hit some even exampled in this thread.
Furthermore, if someone is kicking in my door I'm going for my gun, because I can't afford to wait and see if it's the police or a bad guy.
If I was a drug dealer with a violent felony on my record I probably would assume it was the police as I'd be looking for them to come any minute, however, the guy who just doesn't live in a great neighborhood might not be expecting a visit from the police.
GratefulCitizen
07-23-2013, 23:24
It is true that we have little to fear from honorable, capable men exercising power which might lightly offend the Constitution.
However, once the exercise of such power is considered acceptable, that power continually attracts less honorable, less capable men.
Eventually, the power once meant to be exercised for good is possessed by evil men who use it to oppress.
"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority.
It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions.
There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Danel Webster
"If the provisions of the constitution be not upheld when they pinch as well as when they comfort, they may as well be abandoned."
- Justice George Sutherland
miclo18d
07-24-2013, 05:41
Okay, here is my question...
How often do you see the doors kicked in on the mansion of the drug dealer? I'd venture to say that it happens in the rarest of moments. Why? Because the rich man would have his lawyer bend the LEA over their own desk and rub on some sand filled Vasoline, that's why.
What is the difference if it is MY house? That I don't have a lawyer on retainer?
What about the small drug dealer? Do we kick his door in just because you know he is going to ask for a Public Defender that doesn't care that you kicked his door in?
What is the incidence of criminals shooting at cops serving warrants? Or did all of this stem from the ATFs botched Branch Dividian compound takedown (as well as the botched FBI version that ended in the deaths of nearly everyone there). Couldn't he have been served the warrant in town? Ruby Ridge? These were but the start of the police state and I am by no means one of the tin foil hatters from back then, but I see it now! (The black helos... I was actually riding in those back then :D )
As far as active shooters go, the saying..."when seconds count" applies. When you have a situation do you wait on the SWAT team to get there? I hope we've gotten smarter than that. First officers on site ARE the "SWAT" team. They get paid to put their lives on the line to save citizens....NOT keep themselves safe (without going into SCOTUS rulings) yes we want to all go home at the end of the day but so do the defenseless!
With better training of individual officers you need the SWAT teams less and less. Lets use the SF team paradigm to illustrate. Take an Infantry company or battalion 150-800 men trained well and can be used as a sledge hammer and accomplish very little strategically. A 12 man ODA can go in use scalpel blade tactics combined with intelligence, humanitarian work, thinking outside the box to get hard tasks accomplished, and work with the indig to produce a strategic outcome in a greater area of influence. 12 HIGHLY trained compared to 150-800 okay trained.
Most cops shoot their guns just a few times a year. A SWAT team much more often. I worked with Laredo SWAT once and after I was done I prayed that I was never in a hostage situation in Laredo. Not that they weren't good guys, not that they didn't have the best equipment that seized drug money could buy, no, theyjust sucked!!!! They couldn't hit the broadside of a barn at 5 meters!!!
Okay, sorry, I'm going to step down off this soapbox for a moment...
TOMAHAWK9521
07-24-2013, 09:37
I had an unfortunate incident back in the late 90's that led to a SWAT breach of my house. Without going into the long, drawn-out reasons leading up to my roommate putting a .38 special through his heart while I was home, I ended up with an MP5 muzzle at the end of my nose. How I got there might seem reasonable to you gents in law enforcement.
I was in my room working on a school paper. Well actually, I was taking a break and playing solitaire on my computer while my troubled roommate was sitting in the living room with the fireplace crackling and swigging down copious amounts of vodka. (Yeah, my other roommate [his best friend] and I had no idea how far gone he was, so we failed miserably to get him the help that might have stopped him from taking his own life.) Anyway, I'm in my room and I can hear the crackling of the fire in the living room when I hear a distinctive pop. I go to investigate and find him gasping on the sofa like a carp and the 357 on the floor.
I immediately called 911 and told them what was going on. My roommate was making the death rattle noise which I tried to describe and the operator told me to take the phone over to him. In my haste I ripped the whole phone out of the wall, breaking the connection. I ran into my room and called 911 again. After identifying myself and apologizing for the disconnection, I left the phone off the hook and went back to attempt 1st aid and CPR on my roommate. After a few minutes, I heard an ambulance approaching and then it stopped about a block away. With him literally turning gray and eyes glazing over in my arms I yelled to phone where my ambulance was. I laid him on the floor and went to the phone. About the same time I picked up the phone I heard a loud crash and voices yelling "Fort Collins SWAT!".
I ran back out into the living room and found myself looking down the muzzle of an MP5. Mind you, I had his blood all over me, my Spyderco Endura on the floor next to him (I had sliced his shirt open to see if I could get to the wound and stop the bleeding), his dead body on the floor and growing pool of blood under him. I can't remember all the stuff I was rattling off, but along with a series of very passionate "Whoa-whoa-WHOA!!" I think I gave my rank and serial number, the name of my unit, the ingredients of the Big Mac's special sauce, and Calgon's "Ancient Chinese Secret". All I wanted to was to A: keep that bullet from slipping down the barrel and into my skull, B: keep from sh*tting my pants, and C: not be charged with killing my roommate.
They frisked me (rather quickly, I might add) and hustled me out of the house where I saw what looked like all the ninjas from two whole clans scampering all over the yard. It was only then that the ambulance proceeded down the street to my house. I thought using the city's whole "Brute Squad" was a bit excessive but I wasn't about to make a it point of contention at the time. Suffice it to say, my story checked out, and weeks after it was all said and done, I was given a letter of appreciation by the lead detective for my complete assistance.
Team Sergeant
07-24-2013, 09:45
I think the main point being, SWAT (or whatever fancy name) teams used to be very specialized and used only in the most dire of situations. Now they are being used like old tennis shoes on every situation one can imagine. And that was my point and the point of the article, what next? LEO's are now using drones and I'm sure it's only for the most dire of situations and when they become as well used as the old tennis shoes do we give law enforcement the opportunity to up the ante and say arm them? I'd sure like the federal, state and local law enforcement to justify the purchase of MRAPS and machine guns......
MRAPS, machine guns, secret courts, NSA wire taps, drones, Department of Education SWAT teams, have we lost our collective minds? How much more? And tell me federal, state and local law enforcement, how has the employment of all this taxpayer dollars stemmed the violence in Gun Free Chicago? Let me answer that, NOT one f**king bit, but it makes federal state and local law enforcement feel better.
"Protect and Serve" just who is it being protected?
And trust me 18C4V, I do believe it's the leadership, they have become pussies and politicians.
Streck-Fu
07-24-2013, 10:31
I am adding this to the discussion only because it is related and includes a mention of the author from the OP, Balko.
Since the change in police culture and practices has been discussed, here is an example of what happens when officers question policy and direction from some administrators....LINK (http://reason.com/reasontv/2013/07/24/how-quotas-pervert-police-priorities-fir)
Cop Fired for Speaking Out Against Ticket and Arrest Quotas
Auburn, Alabama is home to sprawling plains, Auburn University, and a troubling police force. After the arrival of a new police chief in 2010, the department entered an era of ticket quotas and worse.
“When I first heard about the quotas I was appalled,” says former Auburn police officer Justin Hanners, who claims he and other cops were given directives to hassle, ticket, or arrest specific numbers of residents per shift. “I got into law enforcement to serve and protect, not be a bully.”
Hanners blew the whistle on the department’s tactics and was eventually fired for refusing to comply and keep quiet. He says that each officer was required to make 100 contacts each month, which included tickets, arrests, field interviews, and warnings. This equates to 72,000 contacts a year in a 50,000 person town. His claims are backed up by audio recordings of his superiors he made. The Auburn police department declined requests to be interviewed for this story.
“There are not that many speeders, there are not that many people running red lights to get those numbers, so what [the police] do is they lower their standards,” says Hanners. That led to the department encouraging officers to arrest people that Hanners “didn’t feel like had broken the law.”
Former Reason staffer Radley Balko, now an investigative reporter for the Huffington Post and author of the new book, Rise of the Warrior Cop, says that this isn’t just a nuisance, it infringes on public safety.
“You have a policy that encourages police to create petty crimes and ignore serious crimes, and that’s clearly the opposite of what we want our police to be doing,” says Balko.
Hanners repeatedly voiced his concerns through his chain of command, and the department responded that these requirements are necessary for increasing productivity.
Yet Hanners firmly believes that the quotas are entirely revenue driven.
“I had no intention of dropping it,” says Hanners, “This is a problem in more places than Auburn, and I think once the people know that they can hold their public officials accountable, it’ll change.”
The police chief singled out by Hanners retired this July, citing medical reasons.
VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zGeZiWOeGIc
Team Sergeant
07-24-2013, 14:38
SWAT team raids wrong apartment 59 year old woman handcuffed
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=928_1374693816
I'm sorry, what were we talking about again????:munchin
I recently had a conversation with a 20-year veteran of a large metropolitan police department in Texas. He expressed his concerns that the department had deliberately weakened its hiring standards in order to recruit police officers that had minimal critical thinking skills and that would be respond to orders without question. I suspect that this occurs elsewhere and leads to many of the incidents where the police have used excessive force and/or not exercised good judgment.
Overkill: The Rise of Paramilitary Police Raids in America
Cato Institute, July 2006
Americans have long maintained that a man’s home is his castle and that he has the right to defend it from unlawful intruders. Unfortunately, that right may be disappearing. Over the last 25 years, America has seen a disturbing militarization of its civilian law enforcement, along with a dramatic and unsettling rise in the use of paramilitary police units (most commonly called Special Weapons and Tactics, or SWAT) for routine police work. The most common use of SWAT teams today is to serve narcotics warrants, usually with forced, unannounced entry into the home.
These increasingly frequent raids, 40,000 per year by one estimate, are needlessly subjecting nonviolent drug offenders, bystanders, and wrongly targeted civilians to the terror of having their homes invaded while they’re sleeping, usually by teams of heavily armed paramilitary units dressed not as police officers but as soldiers. These raids bring unnecessary violence and provocation to nonviolent drug offenders, many of whom were guilty of only misdemeanors. The raids terrorize innocents when police mistakenly target the wrong residence. And they have resulted in dozens of needless deaths and injuries, not only of drug offenders, but also of police officers, children, bystanders, and innocent suspects.
This paper presents a history and overview of the issue of paramilitary drug raids, provides an extensive catalogue of abuses and mistaken raids, and offers recommendations for reform.
http://www.cato.org/publications/white-paper/overkill-rise-paramilitary-police-raids-america
Sounds like an interesting read. I have a friend on the DPD who used to be on their SWAT team but has now gone back to patrol who says the DPD always has 2 SWAT guys standing by on-site whenever a drug warrant is served.
Riichard
Team Sergeant
07-26-2013, 15:11
Yeah, I just put in my resume for National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration SWAT team, if that doesn't work out I'll try for National Transportation Safety Board SWAT team.....
TacOfficer
07-31-2013, 11:17
I recently had a conversation with a 20-year veteran of a large metropolitan police department in Texas. He expressed his concerns that the department had deliberately weakened its hiring standards in order to recruit police officers that had minimal critical thinking skills and that would be respond to orders without question. I suspect that this occurs elsewhere and leads to many of the incidents where the police have used excessive force and/or not exercised good judgment.
In our department testing changes were instituted because not enough of a particular demographic were passing and the test was deemed racist.
Team Sergeant
07-31-2013, 11:27
In our department testing changes were instituted because not enough of a particular demographic were passing and the test was deemed racist.
Yeah, I tried the same thing when I was in culinary college, I kept telling the instructors the tests were racist because they only dealt with "French" culinary techniques.....:munchin
How I love when the racist card is thrown..... the US military does the same exact thing, lowers all the standards to enable any who tries to succeed. The military does the same thing with promotions, they will promote based on color of skin, not ability.
swatsurgeon
07-31-2013, 11:33
Yeah, I just put in my resume for National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration SWAT team, if that doesn't work out I'll try for National Transportation Safety Board SWAT team.....
Do they have a cool logo and tee shirt?
Time to throw this link up again.
http://www.cato.org/raidmap
TacOfficer
07-31-2013, 11:46
Yeah, I tried the same thing when I was in culinary college, I kept telling the instructors the tests were racist because they only dealt with "French" culinary techniques.....
Rofl. :D:D
Do they have a cool logo and tee shirt?
I'm not on a swat team. But I'll join if it comes with a cool baseball hat and t-shirt.
Streck-Fu
07-31-2013, 12:22
Speaking of T-shirts and hats, probably not the best PR for on duty wear....LINK (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/21/what-cop-tshirts-tell-us-_n_3479017.html)
What Cop T-Shirts Tell Us About Police Culture
I think that one of the things that encourages extralegal policing if not outright brutality is the increasing frequency of immunity being extended by Federal agencies to LEOs. For example, the above T-Shirt was printed out and sold to LEOs assigned to help with the 2008 DNC in Denver Colorado.
The DNC was categorized as a National Security event by the Secret Service and all LEOs were Federalized. Local jurisdictions demanded and were granted immunity for their officers and municipalities from any tort arising from this event. While Denver District court arbitrated any citizen violations of law, all claims against the Government had to be made in the Federal District court. A much higher legal bar to overcome. Officers knew it and acted accordingly. While there were few reported civil rights violations (two of which made national news only because of the video evidence), there was reportedly less attention to the rule and intent of the law than was normally applied. Many double standards. The infamous "Razor Wire Holding Facility/Concentration Camp" is one example.
Knowing human behavior as we do, how much of that "immunity attitude" is going to carryover when these LEOs return to their normal community duties?
In fact, Denver Police suffered a spate of serious police brutality beating cases in the years following the DNC. Reduced hiring standards or a push to hire for the DNC, the immunity, or just bad luck - who knows the cause.
Team Sergeant
07-31-2013, 15:14
I think that one of the things that encourages extralegal policing if not outright brutality is the increasing frequency of immunity being extended by Federal agencies to LEOs. For example, the above T-Shirt was printed out and sold to LEOs assigned to help with the 2008 DNC in Denver Colorado.
The DNC was categorized as a National Security event by the Secret Service and all LEOs were Federalized. Local jurisdictions demanded and were granted immunity for their officers and municipalities from any tort arising from this event. While Denver District court arbitrated any citizen violations of law, all claims against the Government had to be made in the Federal District court. A much higher legal bar to overcome. Officers knew it and acted accordingly. While there were few reported civil rights violations (two of which made national news only because of the video evidence), there was reportedly less attention to the rule and intent of the law than was normally applied. Many double standards. The infamous "Razor Wire Holding Facility/Concentration Camp" is one example.
Knowing human behavior as we do, how much of that "immunity attitude" is going to carryover when these LEOs return to their normal community duties?
In fact, Denver Police suffered a spate of serious police brutality beating cases in the years following the DNC. Reduced hiring standards or a push to hire for the DNC, the immunity, or just bad luck - who knows the cause.
It worked well for Hitler and his SS troops.........:munchin
Tree Potato
07-31-2013, 17:08
Yeah, I tried the same thing when I was in culinary college, I kept telling the instructors the tests were racist because they only dealt with "French" culinary techniques.....
Rofl. :D:D
I'm not on a swat team. But I'll join if it comes with a cool baseball hat and t-shirt.
Nearly every NWS forecast office has a Severe Weather Assessment Team (SWAT). :munchin
TacOfficer
07-31-2013, 18:32
Nearly every NWS forecast office has a Severe Weather Assessment Team (SWAT). :munchin
But do they get the T-Shirt?
Tree Potato
07-31-2013, 18:44
But do they get the T-Shirt?
It's complimentary with the $20 club membership. :D
http://i1.cpcache.com/product/663920777/noaa_womens_light_tshirt.jpg?color=LightPink&height=460&width=460&qv=90
In our department testing changes were instituted because not enough of a particular demographic were passing and the test was deemed racist.If you're part of a "particular" demographic and you need NO assistance whatsoever then, that "particular" demographic (which needed the testing changes) labels you an Uncle-Tom.:confused::D
"It's called STUDYING mf'er; look it up in the dictionary....":lifter
Little restraint in military giveaways
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-impact-little-restraint-military-giveaways
"MORVEN, Ga. (AP) — Small-town police departments across the country have been gobbling up tons of equipment discarded by a downsizing military — bicycles, bed sheets, bowling pins, French horns, dog collars, even a colonoscopy machine — regardless of whether the items are needed or will ever be used..............."
The first 2/3's of the story is a bit humorous - it's the bottom 1/3 were it gets serious.
Streck-Fu
08-01-2013, 05:56
LINK (http://reason.com/archives/2013/07/31/cops-dont-necessarily-need-a-warrant-to)
When Cops Don't Need a Warrant To Crash Through Your Door
"Exigent circumstances" provide a multi-purpose end-run around the Fourth Amendment
The Fourth Amendment protects us from random invasions of our homes by police, right? We know we're secure in our "persons, houses, papers, and effects" unless the cops demonstrate probable cause to a judge and get a warrant. Except... Except when they don't. The fact of the matter is that police have a lot of leeway to bust your door down and take a look around if they fear that waiting for a warrant could lead to loss of evidence or danger to people. Or lead to something, anyway. That end run around the Fourth Amendment is called "exigent circumstances," and nobody really seems to be sure where it starts and stops. Except for the police. They know it when they see it.
On July 17, a law enforcement task force including federal and local officers barged into the Sarasota, Florida home of Louise Goldsberry after a brief standoff. The officers, looking for a suspected child molester in Goldsberry's apartment complex, insisted that the nurse's frightened reaction to the sight of a stranger pointing a gun through her kitchen window was all the reason they needed to assume their target's presence. "I feel bad for her," U.S. Marshal Matt Wiggins told Sarasota Herald-Tribune columnist Tom Lyons. "But at the same time, I had to reasonably believe the bad guy was in her house based on what they were doing."
What Goldberry and her boyfriend were doing was cowering in the presence of armed invaders. But that really might be all that it takes.
The problem lies in the definition of exigent circumstances — or, rather, the lack thereof. An unsigned article on the subject in the Alameda County, California, District Attorney's office journal, Point of View explained:
[S]trangely, the courts have been unable to provide officers with a useful definition of the term "exigent circumstances." Probably the most honest definition comes from the Seventh Circuit which said that "exigent circumstances" is merely "legal jargon" for "emergency," explaining that lawyers employ the more grandiose terminology "because our profession disdains plain speech."
The article goes on to explain, "Not only is the definition of the term elusive, the number of situations that are deemed 'exigent' keeps expanding." Where once exigent circumstances required a threat to public safety, they expanded to encompass the potential for a subject to escape, or just to dispose of evidence by, for example, flushing drugs down the toilet. Exigent circumstances now also include a new and looser category of situations involving "community caretaking" which, at least theoretically, justify some kind of immediate action, including kicking in doors without warrants.
oes the Supreme Court provide any guidence? Well...some. Said the court in 2006's Brigham City v. Stuart, following on a string of similar rulings, an entry and search is justified if it is "objectively reasonable" under the circumstances, that reasonableness being determined by public concerns outweighing the intrusiveness of police barging in. In that case, police entered a backyard after spotting juveniles drinking beer and and then walked into a private home after seeing a fight in progress through a window. The court ruled the entry and subsequent arrests justified. There's no check list to follow in making that call, leaving the decision to the officers on the scene. As the author of the Point of View article concedes, "Because of these developments, the term 'exigent circumstances' has become a bloated and almost meaningless abstraction."
But in the Sarasota case, the exigent circumstances were created by the police themselves. Louise Goldsberry screamed and cowered because a police officer pointed a gun at her through her own kitchen window. Marshal Wiggins and company used the fact that they'd scared the hell out of Goldsberry as the justification for entering and searching her home. That can't be OK, can it?
As it turns out, it just might be. The U.S. Supreme Court addressed the issue of police-created exigencies in the 2010 case of Kentucky v. King, involving police entry into an apartment after they heard movement in response to their knock on the door. The sounds, the officers insisted, could have been made by the suspects destroying evidence. Justice Samuel Alito wrote for the majority, "The exigent circumstances rule applies when the police do not create the exigency by engaging or threatening to engage in conduct that violates the Fourth Amendment."
After the King decision, the FBI posted guidance on its Website about when and how police officers could conduct searches in response to circumstances of their own making.
In holding that the exigent circumstances exception applies as long as the police do not gain entry to premises by means of an actual or threatened violation of the Fourth Amendment, the Court eliminated the confusion inherent in the tests used by the lower courts. The rule announced by the Court clearly allows officers confronted with circumstances, such as those present in King, to take appropriate steps to resolve the emergency situation. However, officers must be mindful of the fact that they cannot demand entry or threaten to break down the door to a home if they do not have independent legal authority for doing so. According to the Court, to do so would constitute an actual or threatened violation of the Fourth Amendment and, thereby, deprive the officers of the ability to rely upon the exigent circumstances exception.
No threat to illegally crash through the door, no foul.
Pointing a gun through a window might constitute a heart-stopping threat to life and limb, but not necessarily to protections against unreasonable search and seizure. In a world of loosely interpreted reasonableness under the circumstances, it could pass court scrutiny.
Unfortunately, "could" and "might" are likely as close as we can get to knowing if a rush of police officers through a door makes the legal cut, short of judicial scrutiny in a given case. Police on the scene are empowered to use their own judgment as to whether an "emergency," defined ever-more loosely as time goes on, exists that justifies forcing an entry into private property in the absence of a warrant.
Fourth Amendment notwithstanding, we really do live in a world where screaming when an unidentifiable police officer points a gun at you through your window may be all it takes to authorize knocking your door off its hinges and dragging you outside in handcuffs.
Tree Potato
08-01-2013, 06:48
Unfortunately, "could" and "might" are likely as close as we can get to knowing if a rush of police officers through a door makes the legal cut, short of judicial scrutiny in a given case. Police on the scene are empowered to use their own judgment as to whether an "emergency," defined ever-more loosely as time goes on, exists that justifies forcing an entry into private property in the absence of a warrant.
Fourth Amendment notwithstanding, we really do live in a world where screaming when an unidentifiable police officer points a gun at you through your window may be all it takes to authorize knocking your door off its hinges and dragging you outside in handcuffs.
Relying on judgement of police on the scene rather than clearly defined rules, coupled with insufficient training, is going to get more people killed.
A recent personal example that turned out okay in the end is that in May my apartment just outside the border of DC was broken into. At 5 am on a Saturday someone forced their way through my dead bolted and door-bar secured door, and was met by a 12 gauge and clear instructions. 911 was called, officers were dispatched, and I made it very clear to the 911 operator that I was holding the person at gunpoint until police arrived. When the 8 officers burst into my apartment without announcing themselves before entering I had to quickly determine whether they were accomplices of the intruder, or if they were the good guys. There were no sirens, and I hadn't been told by the 911 dispatcher (still on the phone) that police had arrived on scene; the police didn't direct the 911 dispatcher to let me know they were coming in or even announce who they were after they came running through the door. Fortunately I recognized a badge, informed them who I was, that I had called 911, that the person nearest them had broken in, slowly set my shotgun down, and ended up being handcuffed until the officers calmed down and verified my identity. Had they used better judgement before coming through the door it would not have been as dangerous a situation as they turned it into.
IMO their training and judgement fell short and we're lucky no one was hurt. The ambiguous guidance being given by the courts, and leaving it to under-trained cops to make entry decisions on the fly while they're in the thick of things, is a very dangerous path to go down.
Thirteen officers raid animal shelter to 'rescue' whitetail fawn. Really?
"It was like a SWAT team," shelter employee Ray Schulze said.
Two weeks ago, Schulze was working in the barn at the Society of St. Francis on the Kenosha-Illinois border when a swarm of squad cars arrived and officers unloaded with a search warrant.
"(There were) nine DNR agents and four deputy sheriffs, and they were all armed to the teeth," Schulze said.
Link (http://www.wisn.com/news/armed-agents-raid-animal-shelter-for-baby-deer/-/9373668/21272108/-/wvh1n7z/-/index.html)
Team Sergeant
08-01-2013, 10:03
Thirteen officers raid animal shelter to 'rescue' whitetail fawn. Really?
Simply the fawn could have been armed. And there's no doubt in my mind that the guy had links to al quada using Society of St. Francis as a front. You ask why "Nine" heavily armed DNR agents and "four" sheriff department personnel? How else do you justify your job in the middle of a recession. This is not the rise of the "warrior cop" (I laugh every time I read that) it's the rise of the idiot cops. And let's not forget the drone and drone operators that took aerial photos.
All in all a few thousand dollars of taxpayer's money spent on "Operation Fawn-bin-laden".
Well done officers....
Streck-Fu
08-01-2013, 10:24
Thirteen officers raid animal shelter to 'rescue' whitetail fawn. Really?
SWAT teams are needed to raid markets selling unpasteurized 'raw' milk....LINK ("http://blogs.laweekly.com/squidink/2011/08/cops_raid_rawesome_foods_owner_james_stewart_arres ted.php)....2 years old but still a good example...
Thirteen officers raid animal shelter to 'rescue' whitetail fawn. Really?
I sure hope these departments change their spots soon. In the future if these Jane/John doe's wish to rescue wild animals, they need to infawn the local law enforcement agency before hand. Oh deer, what have we become? :confused:
TacOfficer
08-01-2013, 11:22
Relying on judgement of police on the scene rather than clearly defined rules, coupled with insufficient training, is going to get more people killed.
A recent personal example that turned out okay in the end is that in May my apartment just outside the border of DC was broken into. At 5 am on a Saturday someone forced their way through my dead bolted and door-bar secured door, and was met by a 12 gauge and clear instructions. 911 was called, officers were dispatched, and I made it very clear to the 911 operator that I was holding the person at gunpoint until police arrived. When the 8 officers burst into my apartment without announcing themselves before entering I had to quickly determine whether they were accomplices of the intruder, or if they were the good guys. There were no sirens, and I hadn't been told by the 911 dispatcher (still on the phone) that police had arrived on scene; the police didn't direct the 911 dispatcher to let me know they were coming in or even announce who they were after they came running through the door. Fortunately I recognized a badge, informed them who I was, that I had called 911, that the person nearest them had broken in, slowly set my shotgun down, and ended up being handcuffed until the officers calmed down and verified my identity. Had they used better judgement before coming through the door it would not have been as dangerous a situation as they turned it into.
IMO their training and judgement fell short and we're lucky no one was hurt. The ambiguous guidance being given by the courts, and leaving it to under-trained cops to make entry decisions on the fly while they're in the thick of things, is a very dangerous path to go down.
Tree Potato,
Reading your scenario, it sounds like it happened by the numbers, The officer's training prevented anyone from being injured or you being disarmed by the intruder and becoming a statistic. Yes you can expect to be handcuffed during a hostile scene until all identities are resolved. The police don't have the luxury of seeing your "badge" and have to ensure you haven't been disarmed/compromised by the intruder.
Politicians on the trail or in office scream to crack down on crime, the community says we need more police to protect themselves and our fearless leaders order us into the breach (you first). And after all that, the community complains that our mere police presence is oppressive and some how it's the officer's fault for giving them what they asked for in the first place.
Most members here are capable of defending themselves and don't rely on a nanny state to coddle them when they see a shadow. I respect that, a lot. It's those that demand the services of a nanny state then complain when they (the criminal element) do wrong and the police are there to see it. "Watch them, not me!"
FWIW: Feds love to throw state and locals under the bus.
BTDT (and still no t-shirt).
TO
Team Sergeant
08-01-2013, 18:38
I sure hope these departments change their spots soon. In the future if these Jane/John doe's wish to rescue wild animals, they need to infawn the local law enforcement agency before hand. Oh deer, what have we become? :confused:
Go do pushups, I'll let you know when I'm tired......:rolleyes:
The Reaper
08-01-2013, 18:42
Simply the fawn could have been armed. And there's no doubt in my mind that the guy had links to al quada using Society of St. Francis as a front. You ask why "Nine" heavily armed DNR agents and "four" sheriff department personnel? How else do you justify your job in the middle of a recession. This is not the rise of the "warrior cop" (I laugh every time I read that) it's the rise of the idiot cops. And let's not forget the drone and drone operators that took aerial photos.
All in all a few thousand dollars of taxpayer's money spent on "Operation Fawn-bin-laden".
Well done officers....
You should see what they will do to you for the possession of one single eagle feather.
TR
In all fairness to the officers the fawn in question was wearing camouflage and there was the potential for disease and danger to humans.
I euthanized a ground squirrel out in my yard earlier today and it did not take a SWAT team , but that's the difference between Iowa and Wisconsin too much overkill up there :) !
In all fairness to the officers the fawn in question was wearing camouflage and there was the potential for disease and danger to humans.
I euthanized a ground squirrel out in my yard earlier today and it did not take a SWAT team , but that's the difference between Iowa and Wisconsin too much overkill up there :) !
But now you are being targeted by a PETA SWAT Team.
Subway Stabbing Victim Can't Sue NYPD For Failing To Save Him
http://gothamist.com/2013/07/26/subway_stabbing_victims_suit_agains.php
"A man who was brutally stabbed by Brooklyn subway slasher Maksim Gelman two years ago had his negligence case against the city dismissed in court yesterday, despite the fact that two transit officers had locked themselves in a motorman's car only a few feet from him at the time of the attack. ..............."
Well, at least those two "Warriors" went home alive that day.
The average citizen has no right to expect protection by the local police. The SC has said it time and time again.
ddoering
08-03-2013, 08:01
On the plus side they did capture one Canadian goose that was here illegally.
Score one for ICE. :lifter
But now you are being targeted by a PETA SWAT Team.
That does not concern me as I had a rat writ that was rit for a rat.
Unnecessary and sad.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-08-03/news/ct-met-kass-0802-20130803_1_butcher-type-kitchen-knife-park-forest-police-taser
The old man, described by a family member as "wobbly" on his feet, had refused medical attention. The paramedics were called. They brought in the Park Forest police.
First they tased him, but that didn't work. So they fired a shotgun, hitting him in the stomach with a bean-bag round. Wrana was struck with such force that he bled to death internally, according to the Cook County medical examiner.
At least all of the officers went home safe. After all refusing medical treatment is a great reason to kill someone.
ETA: Police said he had a knife, but this is refuted in this article
http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/ww2-hero-refuses-medical-care-so-cops-kill-him-in-his-nursing-home/?fb_comment_id=fbc_149703431894421_153189_14985353 8546077#f284da71cc
Officers reported that a knife had been pulled, but no knife was found on the scene. The police used a riot shield, shotgun and taser on a 95-year-old man in a walker who arguably presented no threat to anyone but himself.
ironyoshi
08-08-2013, 11:33
ETA: Police said he had a knife, but this is refuted in this article
http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/ww2-hero-refuses-medical-care-so-cops-kill-him-in-his-nursing-home/?fb_comment_id=fbc_149703431894421_153189_14985353 8546077#f284da71cc
You'll also find this in the article:
But one senior police official who has trained police recruits in defensive tactics had a different take.
"When I first heard it, I was like, 'C'mon,'" he said. "Then I thought it through. We don't know what occurred. We don't know what information they had at that time. If you don't have all of the facts, it's hard to judge someone. … Anyone can be dangerous."
Right, this was one of those steroid-pumping 95-year old studs. The funny thing is, every time a death from mostly-nonlethal devices (tazers, beanbags) gets in the news, someone will always be saying "but if it weren't for those things, the cops would have to physically subdue the individual, which is more dangerous." So how is four or five grown men holding this senior citizen down more dangerous than shooting him with a beanbag gun behind a riot shield?
On another note, regarding the explanations proffered in this thread painting the multitude of SWAT incidents on a few bad apples or an isolated misuse of the system, I don't buy it. When we talk about government, we generally assume that the power to take unilateral action will always result in tyranny. There is no such human that can be trusted with that kind of latitude.
So isn't it reasonable to assume that trusting human beings with the power to execute stealth no-knock warrants in the middle of the night is trusting them with such a power? What could be more one-sided than a surprise attack by five to seven armed men of unknown origin who are protected by cop-killer statutes if you shoot at them in self-defense and live to tell about it? Then there's the matter of "exigent circumstances" posted by Streck-Fu, where a warrant isn't even required. What, are we going to trust the NSA next? The TSA? Any arm of the government that has demonstrated they can have their way with you with little to no repercussions?
Uncle Jimbo at Blackfive, a QP, has long maintained that the vast majority of SWAT departments simply don't train enough in CQC to be trusted to conduct raids. I'm inclined to believe him.
Right, this was one of those steroid-pumping 95-year old studs. The funny thing is, every time a death from mostly-nonlethal devices (tazers, beanbags) gets in the news, someone will always be saying "but if it weren't for those things, the cops would have to physically subdue the individual, which is more dangerous." So how is four or five grown men holding this senior citizen down more dangerous than shooting him with a beanbag gun behind a riot shield?
You would be amazed at how afraid people are of old geezers. I was once trying to do a job on a mental ward with a partner and this old guy who could barely walk did not like the fact that we were going to work in his room. So he started to attack us. The female therapy aid who was escorting us walked away from us. I could not believe it. What were we supposed to do when we were expressly told that it was our jobs if we so much as touched a client?
As it turns out, she was going to get a the only male therapy aids on the unit to restrain him because she did not feel that she could handle the problem. Back then I was young and naive and thought that females had the same job title they did the same work. Now I know better.
I will say that the old guy was certifiably insane though. The guy who was working with me could bench around 400 pounds and I was young and small but I could still bench over 200 pounds. Did not matter to him. He could barely stand but he was swinging for all he was worth.
TacOfficer
08-08-2013, 14:39
Ironyoshi,
I really won't argue the facts of this one. because I don't know all the facts. The officers are going to have to do a lot of justifying.
But your argument is that what a person reads in an opinion piece is more factual than an on-scene witness that saw what happened and should be held accountable to a journalist's perspective.
Got it.
Oh and by the way, as to your perception of exigent circumstances: if you call the police to respond to your home for a burglary or home invasion etc. I hope the officer waits for a search warrant while the occupants within fend for themselves.
Pray the judge ain't sleepin'. It could be a long night.
It's not a perfect system, absolutely, mistakes happen and judgement calls will be questioned. Lets not get the tin foil hats out just yet.
TO
Let's try and remember that the police are (supposed to be) the good guys.
It is sad when the citizens forget that, even sadder when the police forget it, and all will be lost if the citizens decide that the police are no longer.
Also remember, we are all imperfect beings. Citizen or police, we all have the ability to fuck up - and all too often exercise that ability.
ironyoshi
08-08-2013, 15:21
Ironyoshi,
I really won't argue the facts of this one. because I don't know all the facts. The officers are going to have to do a lot of justifying.
But your argument is that what a person reads in an opinion piece is more factual than an on-scene witness that saw what happened and should be held accountable to a journalist's perspective.
Got it.
Well, the staff were on-scene witnesses according to what's been reported so far, and they aren't vouching for the police (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-08-03/news/ct-met-kass-0802-20130803_1_butcher-type-kitchen-knife-park-forest-police-taser). Having said that, it's true that we weren't there. I'll be waiting for the outcome of the inquiries.
Oh and by the way, as to your perception of exigent circumstances: if you call the police to respond to your home for a burglary or home invasion etc. I hope the officer waits for a search warrant while the occupants within fend for themselves.
That's not what Streck-Fu's article was about.
It's not a perfect system, absolutely, mistakes happen and judgement calls will be questioned. Lets not get the tin foil hats out just yet.
TO
It's not a perfect system, but I question whether we have to just live with its current version. It seems like it's allowing for a lot of abuses that can't readily be rectified if you don't want to fight lengthly court battles.
I have met many good cops, and I am certainly not adversarial with police when I talk to them. But the culture will eventually suborn the individual, not the other way around. And the culture seems to be changing. (http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2013/08/swat-team-nation.html) 80,000 paramilitary raids in 2001 compared to a few hundred in 1972. That doesn't sound good.
... if you call the police to respond to your home for a burglary or home invasion etc. I hope the officer waits for a search warrant while the occupants within fend for themselves. ....
Timing is everything - if I call about a burglary or home invasion and the cops show up in a few minutes I've got no complaints.
But if I call, then have to resolve the situation myself, sit back and start watching TV and a couple of hours later I get a SWAT Raid - yeah, I'll be complaining.
Right now the local PD is 0 - 1 to me. Seeing how they responded to a theft call I was not impressed.
I just finished reading " A Government of Wolves" The Emerging American Police State, written by John W Whitehead. It was very eye opening on how a lot of this overuse of SWAT teams has been accepted as standard procedure. It also delves into how law enforcement agencies have circumvented the Bill of Rights. I would recommend everyone add it to their reading list
Streck-Fu
08-15-2013, 09:53
When overzealous policing hits the pocketbook....of course, it hits the taxpayers more than the department...LINK (http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/08/14/lancaster-couple-awarded-more-than-4m-after-warrantless-raid/)....no comment on them being shot 'more than a dozen times' and still surviving....
A Lancaster couple has been awarded over $4 million nearly three years after deputies invaded their home and opened fire.
Sheriff’s Deputies Christopher Conley and Jennifer Pederson were searching for a parolee-at-large in October 2010 when they raided the makeshift residence of Angel Mendez and his wife, Jennifer, without a warrant, court records show.
The couple was shot more than a dozen times.
The male victim was forced to have his leg amputated as a result of his injuries. He was holding a rifle-style BB gun at the time of the raid.
His wife, who was pregnant at the time, suffered a shattered collar bone.
The couple filed suit in 2011, alleging excessive force and federal civil rights violations, City News Service reports.
U.S. District Judge Michael W. Fitzgerald sided with the Mendezes following a four-day bench trial earlier this year.
Fitgerald concluded the deputies “violated Mr. and Mrs. Mendez’s constitutional right to be free from an unreasonable search based on the manner of entry”, according to CNS.
Angel and Jennifer Mendez were awarded a respective $3.8 million and $222,000, their attorney said.
This doesn't quite qualify as SWAT team but it is an example of how some local police officers exceed their power.....
My wife left the house to drop our son off at school, when she was returned she was mad as hell and a bit perplexed.
What happened was she pulled into and parked the circle drive so she could drop off a script with the school nurse. Apparently she entered the area about 4 minutes earlier than she was supposed to. And while in the nurses office, Patrolman Barney Fife comes in and notifies my wife that she entered the circle drive earlier than the times posted and that he will arrest her if she does it again.
What she could warrant a ticket or fine, but it is not something one would expect to be arrested unless it was deemed you were resisting arrest......but then again the Local PD has been known to turn a Welfare Check into trip to the morgue.
Streck-Fu
08-16-2013, 09:11
back on the SWAT wagon....LINK (http://fox2now.com/2013/08/13/warrant-served-causes-scare-in-south-county-neighborhood/)
SOUTH COUNTY, MO (KTVI)– Residents were alarmed after a SWAT team lined a South County neighborhood Tuesday night.
The quiet South County street was crawling with SWAT officers, an unnerving situation which turns out to have been the relatively routing service of a warrant.
An unidentified man pulled up around 8:15 p.m. was frisked by police and then detained for questioning, but what got neighbors here very upset happened a few minutes earlier. It was the presence of a SWAT team, complete with officers wearing armor and carrying assault rifles surrounding the man’s home as police went to the door. One woman frantically told her husband, the army’s here.
As it turns out, St. Louis County police say the use of the SWAT team is standard procedure in serving a felony warrant, no matter what it’s for. In this case officers say it was an administrative warrant, though they wouldn’t elaborate. For people on Autumn Drive, it was all a little unsettling.
Police say that it was the service of an administrative warrant by their special investigations unit. Officers will not go into any greater detail, though SWAT team members were downplaying it again saying that their presence on any felony warrant search is standard practice.
Streck-Fu
08-16-2013, 09:17
And SWAT for code enforcement? LINK (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/15/texas-swat-team-conducts-_n_3764951.html)
A small organic farm in Arlington, Texas, was the target of a massive police action last week that included aerial surveillance, a SWAT raid and a 10-hour search.
Members of the local police raiding party had a search warrant for marijuana plants, which they failed to find at the Garden of Eden farm. But farm owners and residents who live on the property told a Dallas-Ft. Worth NBC station that that the real reason for the law enforcement exercise appears to have been code enforcement. The police seized "17 blackberry bushes, 15 okra plants, 14 tomatillo plants ... native grasses and sunflowers," after holding residents inside at gunpoint for at least a half-hour, property owner Shellie Smith said in a statement. The raid lasted about 10 hours, she said.
Local authorities had cited the Garden of Eden in recent weeks for code violations, including "grass that was too tall, bushes growing too close to the street, a couch and piano in the yard, chopped wood that was not properly stacked, a piece of siding that was missing from the side of the house, and generally unclean premises," Smith's statement said. She said the police didn't produce a warrant until two hours after the raid began, and officers shielded their name tags so they couldn't be identified. According to ABC affiliate WFAA, resident Quinn Eaker was the only person arrested -- for outstanding traffic violations.
The_Mentalist
08-16-2013, 18:46
I DL'd the sample of this book and checked it out. Seems really good. Since I just finished Chris Kyles "American Gun" I can DL this complete book and read it next. Looks like a lot of great information.
Now they are practicing on school kids on a bus!
http://www.policestateusa.com/archives/208
SWAT team performs realistic hijacking drill on school bus filled with children
“I didn’t know what was going on, because at the start he was just a normal person and then he pulled out a gun and a mask, and put it all on,” said teen Justin Klocko to ABC 13 News. “Then he started tying everybody down and it just got really scary.”
When is this kind of shit going to be looked at as too much????
I tend to agree that it's a question of leadership, and training. I think a huge part of this equation is the vastly differing training levels of not just SWAT, but police officers in general.
For example, my brother is a former 11B, that consequently worked alongside SF in Iraq. He just graduated from the police academy about two months ago. In his class were two former Rangers, along with a total of about fifteen military veterans.
According to him, the class ran from some absolutely fantastic potential officers and leaders, all the way down to a few guys/gals who would literally squeal every time they had to fire their gun during training. One particular individual managed to lodge cones from the driving course in the wheel well of their vehicle on multiple occasions. Some couldn't even finish their runs/jogs/minimal physical standards. It didn't matter, they all graduated.
Why are the standards there if they aren't upheld? Just another form of participation medal at the public's expense? Basically if you don't quit, you get a badge, if in fact, you make it to the police training academy? By his account, his class had mostly quality candidates, so why allow the candidates who can't meet the standard through?
Which leads me to another point. I'm not sure about how it is in other parts of the U.S., but around here, military veterans are on a distinct and separate list from their civilian counterparts. Other places get points added to their overall scores for selection for past service. Overall, I think this is a noble idea, and a practical one. I, for one, would much rather have my brother trying to save my butt in one of these situations, instead of somebody who had never fired their weapon in a situation of any "live" scenario. By the same token, I have a friend who is a police officer who has told me he'd much rather me fire his gun should the need arise. After seeing him in action, I think that would be best for all parties involved as well(and I am certainly nobody of distinction when it comes to firing a gun). That being said, in other aspects, he's an absolutely fantastic officer.
As noted, there is a fine line being drawn here.
How do other LEO's and QP's feel about that preference?
Is this treatment contributing to the "rise of the warrior cop" ? Or is it just simply better to have veterans trained in the combat arms branch specifically on the force due to their training?
Are having more veterans on these police forces and SWAT teams creating a greater culture of "warrior-cop" preference through their shared experiences and training? Or is the "warrior-cop" theme leading departments to lean towards selecting these veterans for officers/SWAT teams due to their credentials(for obvious reasons)? Could all this fit in neatly with our current seeming obsession with "direct action" missions that have been discussed here previously?
Team Sergeant
08-21-2013, 10:26
We're not against SWAT teams, we're raising concern with the "misuse" and "over use" of the LEO SWAT teams.
And that "is" a leadership problem.
GratefulCitizen
08-22-2013, 20:11
Tax it.
A state legislature could pass a law defining what constitutes "use" of a SWAT team (even if it's non-SWAT using certain tactics).
Appropriate taxes could be assessed on departments (local or federal) for each "use" and paid to the state treasury.
This would solve the problem of overuse to justify budget (and rein in over zealous Department of Education actions...).
If a SWAT team were truly needed for an incident, a department wouldn't even consider the expense when making that decision.
State-level law enforcement wouldn't be much affected.
Governors have the power to call out the NG, so exercising lower levels of police power seems to be appropriate to state-level government.
The_Mentalist
08-23-2013, 19:31
http://www.policestateusa.com/2013/police-perform-500am-raid-look-missing-cell-phone-give-father-fatal-heart-attack/
Here is another for you. A 0500 raid to look for a cell phone....
On Thursday, August 15, 2013, police responded to a report of a 21-year-old woman who had her cell phone stolen. A witness told police he observed someone with red pants run into 379 Rockaway Parkway. Officers arrived at the address, and claimed they knocked politely on door, asking for residents’ cooperation in allowing them to search. The family who occupies the basement apartment, as well as the residents of the first floor, offer a different version of events. The Alcis family showed NY Daily News their door, which was splintered near the lock from where police pried it open.
The Alcis family says they were asleep when officers burst inside their basement apartment. 43-year-old Carlos Alcis, a father of eight, collapsed when he encountered the officers inside the apartment. He was left unattended while the police went after his 15-year-old son, Emmanuel, who made the unfortunate choice of wearing red shorts to bed. Emmanuel was awoken with a flashlight in his face and brought to the victim in his backyard. The woman with the missing cell phone negatively identified him as being the perpetrator. “Its not him,” she said.
Read more. The father died on the floor while police ransacked the home.
Streck-Fu
08-26-2013, 05:52
Do you like to garden? Maybe you live in the areas where you can benefit from early spring starts inside your basement. Maybe buying garden supplies will get your house raided and you get to study your hardwood floors with a gun to the back of your head.....LINK (http://news.yahoo.com/kansas-couple-indoor-gardening-prompted-pot-raid-182449463.html)
LEAWOOD, Kan. (AP) — Two former CIA employees whose Kansas home was fruitlessly searched for marijuana during a two-state drug sweep claim they were illegally targeted, possibly because they had bought indoor growing supplies to raise vegetables.
Adlynn and Robert Harte sued this week to get more information about why sheriff's deputies searched their home in the upscale Kansas City suburb of Leawood last April 20 as part of Operation Constant Gardener — a sweep conducted by agencies in Kansas and Missouri that netted marijuana plants, processed marijuana, guns, growing paraphernalia and cash from several other locations.
April 20 long has been used by marijuana enthusiasts to celebrate the illegal drug and more recently by law enforcement for raids and crackdowns. But the Hartes' attorney, Cheryl Pilate, said she suspects the couple's 1,825-square-foot split level was targeted because they had bought hydroponic equipment to grow a small number of tomatoes and squash plants in their basement.
"With little or no other evidence of any illegal activity, law enforcement officers make the assumption that shoppers at the store are potential marijuana growers, even though the stores are most commonly frequented by backyard gardeners who grow organically or start seedlings indoors," the couple's lawsuit says.
The couple filed the suit this week under the Kansas Open Records Act after Johnson County and Leawood denied their initial records requests, with Leawood saying it had no relevant records. The Hartes say the public has an interest in knowing whether the sheriff's department's participation in the raids was "based on a well-founded belief of marijuana use and cultivation at the targeted addresses, or whether the raids primarily served a publicity purpose."
"If this can happen to us and we are educated and have reasonable resources, how does somebody who maybe hasn't led a perfect life supposed to be free in this country?" Adlynn Harte said in an interview Friday.
The suit filed in Johnson County District Court said the couple and their two children — a 7-year-old daughter and 13-year-old son — were "shocked and frightened" when deputies armed with assault rifles and wearing bulletproof vests pounded on the door of their home around 7:30 a.m. last April 20.
"It was just like on the cops TV shows," Robert Harte told The Associated Press. "It was like 'Zero Dark Thirty' ready to storm the compound."
During the sweep, the court filing said, the Hartes were told they had been under surveillance for months, but the couple "know of no basis for conducting such surveillance nor do they believe such surveillance would have produced any facts supporting the issuance of a search warrant."
Harte said he built the hydroponic garden with his son a couple of years ago. He said they didn't use the powerful light bulbs that are sometimes used to grow marijuana and that the family's electricity usage didn't change dramatically. Changes in utility usage can sometimes lead authorities to such operations.
When law enforcement arrived, the family had just six plants — three tomato plants, one melon plant and two butternut squash plants — growing in the basement, Harte said.
The suit also said deputies "made rude comments" and implied their son was using marijuana. A drug-sniffing dog was brought in to help, but deputies ultimately left after providing a receipt stating, "No items taken."
Pilate said no one in the Harte family uses illegal drugs and no charges were filed. The lawsuit noted Adlynn Harte, who works for a financial planning firm, and Robert Harte, who cares for the couple's children, each were required to pass rigorous background checks for their previous jobs working for the CIA in Washington, D.C. Pilate said she couldn't provide any other details about their CIA employment.
Pilate said any details gleaned from the open records suit could be used in a future federal civil rights lawsuit.
"You can't go into people's homes and conduct searches without probable cause," Pilate said.
Leawood City Administrator Scott Lambers said Friday that he couldn't comment on pending litigation. The sheriff's office also had no comment.
"Obviously with an ongoing lawsuit we are not able to talk about any details of it until it's been played out in court," said Johnson County Deputy Tom Erickson.
Remington Raidr
08-26-2013, 08:20
from the demon weed it is totally worth it. Rock on, deputy Fife.
You are correct, but it doesn't matter to me what it's makeup, it was 12 heavily armed LEO's making entry into a home that, IMO, was not justified given the circumstances.
I've discussed the militarization of American Law Enforcement before and it needs to end. MRAPS, Drones, machineguns, it needs to end.
The use of SWAT. It's one of the most blatant missuses of power by law enforcement. Have to justify that budget for all those cool toys. Have to kick that door down because the guy has a weed plant in his back yard.
If they’re not extorting money out of working Tax Payers with parking and speeding tickets, they are kicking down doors in the middle of the night.
Having been an Agent for a couple of years. Cops spend more time figuring out how to do less work then the actual work they should be doing.
Surgicalcric
08-26-2013, 21:43
...When is this kind of shit going to be looked at as too much????
When a father beats the shit out of a cop.
John Stossel's take on the subject.
http://www.humanevents.com/2013/08/21/beware-warrior-cops/
"We need police to catch murderers, thieves and con men, and so we give them special power — the power to use force on others. Sadly, today’s police use that power to invade people’s homes over accusations of trivial, nonviolent offenses — and often do it with tanks, battering rams and armor you’d expect on battlefields............"
.... and the hits just keep on comin' ....
Why does NASA need a SWAT team? To steal moon dust from retirees!
A recent weapons purchase by NASA piqued the interest of some of my readers, prompting questions such as, “What is NASA doing with assault rifles?” In post 9/11 America, no self-respecting federal agency — from the Environmental Protection Agency to the Department of Education — can exist without its own SWAT team. A strong trend of militarizing law enforcement has been occurring for some time, and if this is a surprise to you, its time to catch up. Yes, even NASA has a SWAT team, and you may be surprised with some of their assignments, which include militarized perimeter security and robbing grandmothers of heirloom decorative paperweights.
<snip>
http://www.policestateusa.com/2013/why-does-nasa-need-a-swat-team-to-steal-moon-dust-from-retirees/
Tree Potato
09-05-2013, 18:58
.... and the hits just keep on comin' ....
Why does NASA need a SWAT team? ...
Why does NASA need a SWAT team? Given the high profile, cost, and classified nature of many space launches, suitable protection against things our enemies may attempt is appropriate. Any number of countries would love to take Uncle Sam down a few pegs by causing a catastrophic launch failure. It's a shame Police State USA doesn't recognize that, it diminishes their credibility.
Swiping a paper weight with alleged fleck of moon dust from a little old lady, though, is indeed over the top. Some special weapons and/or tactics may have been needed to steal the rock, but why not just wait for her to leave home, get a search warrant, have a "lock smith" open the door, and take what they wanted? Why all the drama?
Sometimes less is more.
Streck-Fu
09-05-2013, 20:07
How about EPA SWAT raids for water testing.....LINK (http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/20130903/gold-miners-near-chicken-cry-foul-over-heavy-handed-epa-raids)
Did it really take eight armed men and a squad-size display of paramilitary force to check for dirty water? Some of the miners, who run small businesses, say they felt intimidated.
Others wonder if the actions of the agents put everyone at risk. When your family business involves collecting gold far from nowhere, unusual behavior can be taken as a sign someone might be trying to stage a robbery. How is a remote placer miner to know the people in the jackets saying POLICE really are police?
Miners suggest it might have been better all around if officials had just shown up at the door -- as they used to do -- and said they wanted to check the water.
The EPA has refused to publicly explain why it used armed officers as part of what it called a “multi-jurisdictional” investigation of possible Clean Water Act violations in the area.
A conference call was held last week to address the investigation. On the line were members of the Alaska Congressional delegation, their staff, state officers, and the EPA. According to one Senate staffer, the federal agency said it decided to send in the task force armed and wearing body armor because of information it received from the Alaska State Troopers about “rampant drug and human trafficking going on in the area.”
The miners contacted by the task force were working in the area of the Fortymile National Wild and Scenic River. The federal designation, made in 1980 as part of the Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act, protects 32 miles between Chicken and Eagle, Alaska. It is a remote area, close to the Canadian border and the town of Boundary. The nearest city of any real size is Fairbanks, 140 miles to the northwest. It was unknown to everyone in the area that there is a rampant problem with drug and human traffickers.
This also came as news to the Alaska State Troopers, whom the EPA said supplied the information about drugs and human trafficking, and at least one U.S. senator.
“Their explanation -- that there are concerns within the area of rampant drug trafficking and human trafficking going on -- sounds wholly concocted to me,” said Murkowski, R-Alaska.
“The Alaska State Troopers did not advise the EPA that there was dangerous drug activity. We do not have evidence to suggest that is occurring,” said Trooper spokesperson Megan Peters.
why not just wait for her to leave home
Sounds like a safer way for everyone and much cheaper too.
Doesn't sound like much thinking is going on there...
Streck-Fu
09-06-2013, 05:25
Monterey County, CA pays $2.6M in wrongful death suit of innocent man killed in house fire caused by SWAT flashbang....LINK (http://www.montereyherald.com/localnews/ci_23897554/monterey-county-agrees-pay-2-6-million-flash)
Armed with a search warrant, the sheriff's SWAT team surrounded Serrato's house in a military-style operation Jan. 5, 2011, while looking for suspects in a New Year's shooting that wounded three outside the Mucky Duck bar in downtown Monterey.
It was later determined Serrato, 31, was not involved in the shooting and was unarmed in the house. After hailing him for an hour, the family's attorneys said, deputies broke a front window and tossed in the grenade to flush him out.
The device ignited a sofa and fire quickly spread. Instead of trying to help Serrato, who was emitting "anguished cries" and breaking windows, SWAT team members retreated to the transport vehicle, pointed rifles toward the home and awaited the fire department, the suit said.
The Reaper
09-06-2013, 11:14
Should come directly out of the departmental budget.
TR
Team Sergeant
09-06-2013, 12:24
Some of the LEO's problems is that they take Close Quarters Training from frauds that have NEVER done it themselves.
And yes there are hundreds of frauds teaching police all over this country. Many inflate their military training to gain contracts from law enforcement.
Maybe the police need to take a hard look at the training they have been receiving and start suing those ""Police/SWAT Training" outfits for putting them and their "victims" in grave danger.
Yeah, hundreds of law enforcement training frauds. Sort of like the martial arts training, 75% are total frauds.
Utah Bob
09-07-2013, 12:35
Some of the LEO's problems is that they take Close Quarters Training from frauds that have NEVER done it themselves.
And yes there are hundreds of frauds teaching police all over this country. Many inflate their military training to gain contracts from law enforcement.
Maybe the police need to take a hard look at the training they have been receiving and start suing those ""Police/SWAT Training" outfits for putting them and their "victims" in grave danger.
Yeah, hundreds of law enforcement training frauds. Sort of like the martial arts training, 75% are total frauds.
There is a LOT of that bullshit going on unfortunately.:mad:
OperaHotelBlues
09-07-2013, 13:56
An interesting question to ponder in today's world - Is it time to reconsider the militarization of American policing?
Richard
Rise of the Warrior Cop
WSJ, 19 July 2013
Part 1 of 2
On Jan. 4 of last year, a local narcotics strike force conducted a raid on the Ogden, Utah, home of Matthew David Stewart at 8:40 p.m. The 12 officers were acting on a tip from Mr. Stewart's former girlfriend, who said that he was growing marijuana in his basement. Mr. Stewart awoke, naked, to the sound of a battering ram taking down his door. Thinking that he was being invaded by criminals, as he later claimed, he grabbed his 9-millimeter Beretta pistol.
The police say that they knocked and identified themselves, though Mr. Stewart and his neighbors said they heard no such announcement. Mr. Stewart fired 31 rounds, the police more than 250. Six of the officers were wounded, and Officer Jared Francom was killed. Mr. Stewart himself was shot twice before he was arrested. He was charged with several crimes, including the murder of Officer Francom.
The police found 16 small marijuana plants in Mr. Stewart's basement. There was no evidence that Mr. Stewart, a U.S. military veteran with no prior criminal record, was selling marijuana. Mr. Stewart's father said that his son suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder and may have smoked the marijuana to self-medicate.
Early this year, the Ogden city council heard complaints from dozens of citizens about the way drug warrants are served in the city. As for Mr. Stewart, his trial was scheduled for next April, and prosecutors were seeking the death penalty. But after losing a hearing last May on the legality of the search warrant, Mr. Stewart hanged himself in his jail cell.
The police tactics at issue in the Stewart case are no anomaly. Since the 1960s, in response to a range of perceived threats, law-enforcement agencies across the U.S., at every level of government, have been blurring the line between police officer and soldier. Driven by martial rhetoric and the availability of military-style equipment—from bayonets and M-16 rifles to armored personnel carriers—American police forces have often adopted a mind-set previously reserved for the battlefield. The war on drugs and, more recently, post-9/11 antiterrorism efforts have created a new figure on the U.S. scene: the warrior cop—armed to the teeth, ready to deal harshly with targeted wrongdoers, and a growing threat to familiar American liberties.
The acronym SWAT stands for Special Weapons and Tactics. Such police units are trained in methods similar to those used by the special forces in the military. They learn to break into homes with battering rams and to use incendiary devices called flashbang grenades, which are designed to blind and deafen anyone nearby. Their usual aim is to "clear" a building—that is, to remove any threats and distractions (including pets) and to subdue the occupants as quickly as possible.
The country's first official SWAT team started in the late 1960s in Los Angeles. By 1975, there were approximately 500 such units. Today, there are thousands. According to surveys conducted by the criminologist Peter Kraska of Eastern Kentucky University, just 13% of towns between 25,000 and 50,000 people had a SWAT team in 1983. By 2005, the figure was up to 80%.
The number of raids conducted by SWAT-like police units has grown accordingly. In the 1970s, there were just a few hundred a year; by the early 1980s, there were some 3,000 a year. In 2005 (the last year for which Dr. Kraska collected data), there were approximately 50,000 raids.
A number of federal agencies also now have their own SWAT teams, including the Fish & Wildlife Service, NASA and the Department of the Interior. In 2011, the Department of Education's SWAT team bungled a raid on a woman who was initially reported to be under investigation for not paying her student loans, though the agency later said she was suspected of defrauding the federal student loan program.
The details of the case aside, the story generated headlines because of the revelation that the Department of Education had such a unit. None of these federal departments has responded to my requests for information about why they consider such high-powered military-style teams necessary.
Americans have long been wary of using the military for domestic policing. Concerns about potential abuse date back to the creation of the Constitution, when the founders worried about standing armies and the intimidation of the people at large by an overzealous executive, who might choose to follow the unhappy precedents set by Europe's emperors and monarchs.
The idea for the first SWAT team in Los Angeles arose during the domestic strife and civil unrest of the mid-1960s. Daryl Gates, then an inspector with the Los Angeles Police Department, had grown frustrated with his department's inability to respond effectively to incidents like the 1965 Watts riots. So his thoughts turned to the military. He was drawn in particular to Marine Special Forces and began to envision an elite group of police officers who could respond in a similar manner to dangerous domestic disturbances.
Mr. Gates initially had difficulty getting his idea accepted. Los Angeles Police Chief William Parker thought the concept risked a breach in the divide between the military and law enforcement. But with the arrival of a new chief, Thomas Reddin, in 1966, Mr. Gates got the green light to start training a unit. By 1969, his SWAT team was ready for its maiden raid against a holdout cell of the Black Panthers.
At about the same time, President Richard Nixon was declaring war on drugs. Among the new, tough-minded law-enforcement measures included in this campaign was the no-knock raid—a policy that allowed drug cops to break into homes without the traditional knock and announcement. After fierce debate, Congress passed a bill authorizing no-knock raids for federal narcotics agents in 1970.
Over the next several years, stories emerged of federal agents breaking down the doors of private homes (often without a warrant) and terrorizing innocent citizens and families. Congress repealed the no-knock law in 1974, but the policy would soon make a comeback (without congressional authorization).
During the Reagan administration, SWAT-team methods converged with the drug war. By the end of the 1980s, joint task forces brought together police officers and soldiers for drug interdiction. National Guard helicopters and U-2 spy planes flew the California skies in search of marijuana plants. When suspects were identified, battle-clad troops from the National Guard, the DEA and other federal and local law enforcement agencies would swoop in to eradicate the plants and capture the people growing them.
Advocates of these tactics said that drug dealers were acquiring ever bigger weapons and the police needed to stay a step ahead in the arms race. There were indeed a few high-profile incidents in which police were outgunned, but no data exist suggesting that it was a widespread problem. A study done in 1991 by the libertarian-leaning Independence Institute found that less than one-eighth of 1% of homicides in the U.S. were committed with a military-grade weapon. Subsequent studies by the Justice Department in 1995 and the National Institute for Justice in 2004 came to similar conclusions: The overwhelming majority of serious crimes are committed with handguns, and not particularly powerful ones.
The new century brought the war on terror and, with it, new rationales and new resources for militarizing police forces. According to the Center for Investigative Reporting, the Department of Homeland Security has handed out $35 billion in grants since its creation in 2002, with much of the money going to purchase military gear such as armored personnel carriers. In 2011 alone, a Pentagon program for bolstering the capabilities of local law enforcement gave away $500 million of equipment, an all-time high.
The past decade also has seen an alarming degree of mission creep for U.S. SWAT teams. When the craze for poker kicked into high gear, a number of police departments responded by deploying SWAT teams to raid games in garages, basements and VFW halls where illegal gambling was suspected. According to news reports and conversations with poker organizations, there have been dozens of these raids, in cities such as Baltimore, Charleston, S.C., and Dallas.
(Cont'd) There was a time when there were Peace Officers in most Law Enforcement departments but now all to often we seem to have arrogant thugs with badges itching for some action at the public's expense!
107-year-old Arkansas man dies in shootout with S.W.A.T. (http://www.thv11.com/news/article/278849/2/107-year-old-Arkansas-man-dies-in-shootout-with-SWAT)
Somebody better check on Dusty... :p
All kidding aside, what is an appropriate time to wait someone out? Especially someone who is likely to die of natural causes in the next twenty minutes! I'm sure there are extenuating factors that are unique to every case, but really?
107-year-old Arkansas man dies in shootout with S.W.A.T. (http://www.thv11.com/news/article/278849/2/107-year-old-Arkansas-man-dies-in-shootout-with-SWAT)
Somebody better check on Dusty... :p
Not funny, dude. :mad:
That was my little brother...
:D
They should have thrown a box of depends with a rope attached down the hall. A 107 yr old could not hold out long....:eek:;)
ddoering
09-08-2013, 13:15
Or sent in a glass of prune juice. He would have caved in 15 minutes.
... and with today being "National Grandparents Day".
Ooops. :eek:
At some point, doesn't one mature past the "shoot through doors" stage?
GratefulCitizen
09-08-2013, 17:29
SWAT team for a 107 year-old.
Good thing there weren't 2 of them.
Bunch of disgruntled seniors at the afternoon buffet might warrant calling out the National Guard.
SWAT team for a 107 year-old.
Good thing there weren't 2 of them.
Bunch of disgruntled seniors at the afternoon buffet might warrant calling out the National Guard.
The plot for "Expendables 8".
The plot for "Expendables 8".
Now dats funnt rit there.
Why does NASA need a SWAT team? Given the high profile, cost, and classified nature of many space launches, suitable protection against things our enemies may attempt is appropriate. Any number of countries would love to take Uncle Sam down a few pegs by causing a catastrophic launch failure. It's a shame Police State USA doesn't recognize that, it diminishes their credibility.
I'd buy that, if they were launching something even once a week, but with the VERY infrequent number of launches/activities, I think they could get away with external security support rather than maintain an organic assault/counterassault capability.
The upfront cost is zero, but what about the backside cost of fuel for the fuel guzzler?
The Ohio State University Department of Public Safety has acquired an armored military vehicle that looks like it belongs in Iraq or Afghanistan.
Gary Lewis, a senior director of media relations at OSU, told The Daily Caller via email that the “unique, special-purpose vehicle is a replacement” for the “police fleet.” He called the armored jalopy “an all-hazard, all-purpose, public safety-response vehicle” with “obviously enhanced capabilities.”
He noted that the vehicle was “acquired at no cost from Military Surplus.” He also bragged that it has “extremely low miles and is in nearly new condition” but elaborated no further concerning the acquisition.
“We are in the process of making it usable for our needs in an urban campus environment,” Lewis explained.
http://www.infowars.com/ohio-state-gets-armored-fighting-vehicle-specifically-designed-for-asymmetric-warfare/
The upfront cost is zero, but what about the backside cost of fuel for the fuel guzzler?.......
Not to mention maintenance and parts.......
Wonder what an air cleaner for one of those puppies run? Or is it a "run forever - just blow out once a week" jobs?
Noslack71
09-26-2013, 13:32
Gentlemen: In 1977 I was a Cop in Washington DC when the Hanafi Muslims initiated a terrorist attack on three buildings in Washington DC. I was at the District Building where a reporter was killed, Marion Barry (DC Police got the largest pay raise in history thanks to Marion after the siege) was shot in the chest and a Special District building guard was shot and later died of a heart attack. These were the only casualties during the siege. We were filled with” Warrior Cops” only, they were primarily Army and Marine Viet Nam vets mostly “Grunts” with at least one combat tour, and a few Air Force and Navy vets as well. We were armed with Colt & S&W 4” .38 cal. revolvers, 870’s, .270 open rifles, and a couple of Uzi’s. The Muslims had Remington 1100 shotguns, Browning civilian/ hunting BAR semi-automatic high powered rifles, and some pistols. Once the DC Police got on the scene there were no more casualties. We turned a few conference tables placed on their side so we could move officers from one side of the marble hallway (ricochet issues) where the stairwell was, to offices on the other side where we had set up a couple officers w/ .270’s and shotguns over watching the council chambers, and others could wait and rest between there turns on the guns.
Things got particularly dicey for the hostages every time President Jimmy Carter spoke to the terrorists ( yes he did talk to them, and he really pissed them off):o. Ambassador’s from Iran (Zahedi was Elizabeth Taylors boyfriend at the time, and the Iranian Embassy was noted for parties that allegedly rivaled Rome’s in terms of pure debauchery) , Egypt and Pakistan. We were just down the street from FBI HQ and our Chief, Maurice Culliane would not allow the FBI HRT to play ( he told them to stuff it and they were literally frothing at the mouth they were so pissed they could not rush in withal their toys). We did get some very useful help from OGA’s mainly ISR stuff. We were about five minutes out from assaulting the Council Chambers when the bad guys listened to those ambassadors and gave up. We were patient, lucky and I think the officer’s combat experience gave them a much more mature outlook that saved lives. Most of us were basic Beat Cops and patrol officers. The DC Police Special Operations Division (SOD) recently renamed from the Civil Disturbance Unit (CDU) was in tactical control of the scene, and they were primarily trained to handle the many demonstrations that occurred almost daily. They did receive some extra weapons training but no SWAT training. When the bad guys gave up I was one of the officers that went in and hooked them up. When I took my guy down to stuff him in the Scout Car, I was greeted with a mass of media folks rushing at us that looked like the Oklahoma land rush. I was literally a Deer in the head lights of all the cameras and lights. I was so shocked, I “accidentally” hit the terrorist head against the Scout car a couple three times before I successfully got him into the car (that’s my story and I’m sticking to it). The hostages had been hog tied and placed over desks in preparation for beheading. The media were as usual complete a------s.
Prior to this event, most of us had been walking a beat. I was in SE DC, the Ghetto, no radios; we used call boxes on corners to call in our marks. We knew the folks, who belonged and who did not. I am white, and quickly learned how to become part of the community, develop “sources” and eventually folks would call 911 for me when I was fighting for my life in the middle of the street! We had several barricaded suspect situations that me, and my partner resolved without any help from anything resembling a SWAT team I had a Second Chance vest that my parents bought for me, the Department did not issue vests. Our issued sidearm was the .38 Special 4” S&W with 12 158grain round nose bullets; (most of us had speed loaders with Super Vels or hollow points in our pockets, JIC, highly illegal on the Department at the time). Those weapons are no longer practical in today’s environment but, the M-4’s and military gear will cause more problems than they solve. I do not like where policing has gone, my experience is that the individual officer is far more important than technology. The militzarization of American policing is a very disturbing trend. My experience is that a Cop has to get right in with the community, get to know them, become part of that community. Especially in the hood where, they want you to get the bad guys but not escalate the violence. The community supports the low profile approach that keeps them safe and not fearful of the cops. I had folks who committed serious assaults in different parts of town, wait until I came on to surrender to me because I had become part of the neighborhood and their families trusted me. If the current trends continue, the people will respond. The FBI investigated me for Civil Rights violations (only locking up African Americans). I told them I would lock up any white folks, if I could find any on my beat. The people on my beat basically told the Feeb’s to piss off and made no derogatory statements against me. Kicking in doors and terrorizing families, kids, shooting family pets occasionally may be required but my very limited experience is that less is usually more when working in communities that desperately need good policing.
Noslack
1. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Hanafi_Siege
o Cached
o Similar
Excellent post, NoSlack71! And it sounds to me like an excellent job in your career. As you pointed out, you "warrior cops" were actually true warriors - military men who "graduated" from the "school of very dangerous hard knocks" in Vietnam - and were therefore more mature both in age and emotionally. They knew the difference between real bad guys, the "run of the mill" bad guys on the street and the "normal" issues that cops face every day, and knew how to behave/react accordingly.
My Dad was also one of those good cops - both warrior (WWII Marine) and cop, but able to distinguish when each was called for. One one occasion, a nutcase was being transported to "Marlboro Country" [in NJ] w/a patrolman on watch in the ambulance, when the bad guy got out of his restraints, assaulted the officer, took his gun and shot him, as well as the ambulance driver, and managed to escape and holed up in a vacant farmhouse -- fully armed. Although a number of officers responded to the call at the farmhouse, none dared go in. It was left up to my father, who went in with the WWII vintage "schmeisser" that he sometimes used in training courses at the Middlesex County Police Academy where he was RangeMaster and instructor, to convince the nutcase (who had retreated to the upstairs) to throw the pistol down the stairs and come down with hands up, otherwise he [Dad] (who knew where the perp was by listening to his footsteps in the room above) would have cut a hole in the floor with the schmeisser and brought him down that way - in which case the perp certainly wouldn't have exited the farmhouse alive. That sucker complied without firing another shot. Nor did my father have to use the schmeisser.
I'm afraid the same cannot be said for what we have today. Too many have seen shows like "Flashpoint" and may have too much adrenalin running through them at the time that seems to short-circuit the rational functioning of the brain. Not that there weren't cases of "overkill" in years past perhaps due to a long vehicle chase and too much adrenalin; but it's a very different world we live in today from that world of 1977 (and yes, it almost seems a world away).
Streck-Fu
10-01-2013, 08:42
Not SWAT and definitely not a Warrior....Fire discipline? Practice your lead.....
LINK (http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/call7-investigators/town-upholds-castle-rock-officers-use-of-force-that-endangered-an-innocent-retired-cop-his-wife)
CASTLE ROCK, Colo. - A veteran Castle Rock police officer fired his rifle at a moving car full of burglary suspects, but hit another innocent vehicle in the process. The driver of that second car was a retired cop who thinks the shooting was reckless, but the town has supported the officer's decision to open fire.
In February, Mike Cardella and his wife were driving in their SUV in Castle Rock when they saw a police officer pointing a high-powered rifle along the road.
Cardella pulled over and noticed the officer intended to fire at another vehicle. He crouched over his wife in the front seat to protect her. Suddenly, the car rocked.
"We had been hit," Cardella told CALL7 Investigator John Ferrugia.
The high-powered round struck about 24 inches below the windshield on the driver's side.
A veteran Castle Rock police officer fired the shots at a vehicle driven by a burglary suspect -- Tshinbanda Kazadi -- with another alleged accomplice inside.
An arrest affidavit shows the officer believed the fast-moving vehicle and the two men inside to be a threat. Kazadi faces seven charges, including two counts of assault with felony "extreme indifference."
The Douglas County District Attorney's Office conducted a review of the incident that was obtained by CALL7 Investigators. The review, dated March 13, found that the officer broke no laws in firing his weapon because he said he felt he was in danger.
7NEWS is not naming the officer because he faces no charges.
"[The officer] reasonably believed that his own life, the lives of fellow officers, and the lives of the general public in the area were in imminent danger due to the actions of Kazadi," the review stated. "Kazadi's driving constituted an imminent use of deadly physical force."
The officer fired four to five shots from his AR-15 rifle and rotated and kept firing as the speeding vehicle passed, putting Cardella's vehicle into the line of fire, Cardella told Ferrugia.
"I screamed at my wife, Susan, grabbed her and pulled her down and covered her with my body," Cardella said.
Susan Cardella said the incident still haunts her and she's sought the help of a therapist to understand the trauma that she experienced that day.
"Are we okay?" Susan Cardella said. "I wasn't in pain, but my heart just started racing so hard I almost started blacking out, and I've never felt that before."
Mike Cardella said the initial response from the Town of Castle Rock was insulting. Lawyers from the town attempted to get him to sign a legal release stating that he didn't know who shot his vehicle and that he would not sue. Only after signing the release, he was told, would the town pay for his damages. That's when retained a lawyer to help get the money due him for damage to his tire.
Cardella, a retired Nevada police officer and state patrolman, added that in his more three decades of experience, he believes the Castle Rock officer's actions were reckless. Once the vehicle sped by the officer, the officer should have stopped firing because the direct threat to the officer had past, Cardella said.
He added that the officer could have instead used a shotgun in the situation – a weapon that has less range than an AR-15, noting that Daniel C. Oakes High School was also located in the line of fire, just beyond his SUV.
What frustrates Cardella is that officials did not release information on the incident to him.
"I want to know what the findings were," he said. "I wanted to be able to read the reports. I've got questions that need to be answered."
Castle Rock Police Chief Jack Cauley has refused to release records or answer any questions about the incident. In a statement, he claims an internal report found no problems with the officer's actions during the incident.
"The Castle Rock Police response during the above-referenced criminal episode, including the use of force, has been the subject of external and internal reviews and was found to be in conformance with Department policy and established law-enforcement protocols for use of force based on specific facts involved in this event," Cauley wrote in a statement to CALL7 Investigators. "Because these reports address specifics of the underlying crime and arrest for which there are pending charges in the Douglas County District Court, the reports may not be released at this time."
But Cauley refuses to explain how he came to the conclusion the shooting was justified after the vehicle was no longer a threat to the officer. The Call 7 Investigators have learned that defense lawyers already have all the detailed reports including that of a critical incident Investigation by outside police officers. So prosecutors, defense attorneys, and police all have information vital to public safety. Yet the police chief Jack Cauley insists he cannot comment.
TacOfficer
10-01-2013, 09:35
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-man-22-shot-by-police-officer-during-chase-20130930,0,939906.story
I'm sure he was just getting the study notes for today from his classmates.
After all he is a college student
Badger52
10-01-2013, 10:04
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-man-22-shot-by-police-officer-during-chase-20130930,0,939906.story
I'm sure he was just getting the study notes for today from his classmates.
After all he is a college studentTacOffiicer, not gonna 2nd-guess the situation here but am curious about something. Is it normal for the FoP to be the one giving out statements to the press vs. the PD's own PAO?
TacOfficer
10-01-2013, 10:29
TacOffiicer, not gonna 2nd-guess the situation here but am curious about something. Is it normal for the FoP to be the one giving out statements to the press vs. the PD's own PAO?
About a year or two ago Pat Camden was the News Affairs officer for the Chicago Police Dept. He has since retired and observed the current news affairs officer was more concerned about carrying water for the mayor and appeasing the "element". Mr. Camden thus went to work for the FOP and provided his services. He's has a good rapport with the local media and is generally respected by most.
Badger52
10-01-2013, 10:53
About a year or two ago Pat Camden was the News Affairs officer for the Chicago Police Dept. He has since retired and observed the current news affairs officer was more concerned about carrying water for the mayor and appeasing the "element". Mr. Camden thus went to work for the FOP and provided his services. He's has a good rapport with the local media and is generally respected by most.Interesting dynamic in play there. Thanks.
Not SWAT and definitely not a Warrior....Fire discipline? Practice your lead.....
Take his weapon...
For those in a similar position find a super lawyer in your area before signing anything...
Gentlemen: In 1977 I was a Cop in Washington DC when the Hanafi Muslims initiated a terrorist attack on three buildings in Washington DC.
For more information on the referenced attack:
March 9, 1977: Hanafi Muslims siege DC hostages, kill 2 (http://creepingsharia.wordpress.com/2008/04/06/fitna-not-first-movie-muslims-rage-over/)
ddoering
10-02-2013, 11:02
Give them the address to Capital Hill.
I didn't know where to post this; but this thread seems the most logical.
Four law-enforcement officers were wounded Friday in a suburb of Sacramento, Calif., during an attempt to take a wanted gang member into custody.
The shooting occurred in Roseville, a suburb about 20 miles northeast of the state capital.
Helicopters circled overhead and armored vehicles and other police cars flocked to the area following an initial report that a U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agent had been shot.
A sporadic gun battle lasted into the night and the commotion snarled traffic for hours. Police responded by setting up a checkpoint and pointing guns at motorists, as this Associated Press photo shows.
**********************************************
Curious, I checked the Sacramento Bee for Oct. 25th. There was a photo gallery of 28 photos. The one below was #23 of 28. This does indeed look more than a little intimidating, that's why I thought it might have been staged; but apparently not, because the same two officers can be seen again in photo #20.
My question: I know that they were looking for a violent suspect who had apparently shot 4 officers; but is this really any way to do a roadblock check?
I also notice that the officer pointing the rifle does not have his finger on the trigger. Just being "safe"??? I'm confused at the behavior here. Can any of you QPs, or law enforcement personnel, advise whether this is SOP? (Seems guaranteed to piss off the law-abiding public if you ask me.)
The Reaper
10-28-2013, 16:42
Love the tub o' guts under the tactical helmet on the far side.
There is a steely eyed killer for you.
Und show me your paperz! Schnell!
TR
Kind of looks like Johnny Knoxville and Jackass.
FlagDayNCO
10-29-2013, 07:43
Love the tub o' guts under the tactical helmet on the far side.
There is a steely eyed killer for you.
Und show me your paperz! Schnell!
TR
Maybe the tub o' guts is the roving back stop. :munchin
The Reaper
10-29-2013, 07:51
Maybe the tub o' guts is the roving back stop. :munchin
Body bunker. :D
TR
The Reaper
12-23-2013, 14:27
Herre we go again:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/12/23/texas-deputy-slaying-suspect-deputies-didnt-announce-themselves-thought-was/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+foxnews%2Fnational+%28Interna l+-+US+Latest+-+Text%29
TR
He lives in a rural area and: ...Magee's attorney, Dick DeGuerin, says sheriff's deputies did not announce themselves when they entered Magee's home just before 6 a.m. Thursday. DeGuerin says Magee opened fire without knowing that the person he shot was a sheriff's deputy.
Are there no deaf people in Texas? Does shouting "Police!" make you a LEO?
When we were visited by sheriff deputies, a couple of weeks ago, they honked when they got within about 100'. ;)
Pat
TacOfficer
12-23-2013, 15:14
RIP Officer, prayers for the family.
No details of the circumstances. Usual refrain from the offender "I didn't know".
Another article, little details:
http://www.officer.com/news/11284640/arrest-made-in-fatal-shooting-of-texas-deputy
Herre we go again:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/12/23/texas-deputy-slaying-suspect-deputies-didnt-announce-themselves-thought-was/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+foxnews%2Fnational+%28Interna l+-+US+Latest+-+Text%29
TR
I'd like to see a copy of the warrant and officers reports.
I'd like to see a copy of the warrant and officers reports.
Me too, they need to ask themselves if this officers death was worth it. How bad an Hombre was this guy? What ever happened to just grabbing the guy when he came out doors?
“It’s easy to throw out that ‘militarization of the police’ line,” he said. “But what is militarization of the police? Is that equipment or is it tactics?”
He added, “An allegation that we are militarizing has to be that we were patrolling the streets in platoons in greater numbers, that we were setting up checkpoints and searching people in and out of neighborhoods.”
But when you’re on phone with 911 and someone is shooting at your house, this is the vehicle you want to see, McMillin said.
“The community will be safer for this vehicle,” he said. “If you’re the person with some guy shooting next door, you want to see this thing driving up into your yard, the hydraulic steps coming down and 37,000 pounds of ballistically sound steel between you and the person taking shots at you.”
http://www.thecalifornian.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2013312180046&gcheck=1
The Reaper
12-24-2013, 13:58
http://www.thecalifornian.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2013312180046&gcheck=1
Somehow, I just don'tr see it being used like that very often.
More likely, it will be accidentally running into a lot of private property or being used to ram down doors/structures, just because it can.
TR
frostfire
12-24-2013, 14:29
This thread reminds me of spirited discussion we had on active shooter few years back. Many mentioned Beslan scenario is coming. Well, when it does, wouldn't "militarization" of the PD allow them to stand a bit better chance against well-armed-ill-intentioned jihadis?
I must admit I'm more warm and fuzzy towards our PD brethern after taking few classes with them, and when PD is purchasing Barrett M107, 416, etc. one can't deny the direction of militarization. The Puerto Rico PD explained to me the SOP for the use of Barrett was for barricade and boat interdiction scenarios
PD allow them to stand a bit better chance against well-armed-ill-intentioned jihadis?
I'm thinkin' a .243 or 30-06 and some practice...for close up a five round AR - but absolutely no ten inch barrels :D
Sounds like a "no knock, night servicable" search warrant. No announcement and served before 0700 hours. Still, little information as to how the DA came to that conclusion of charging the man for captial murder of a PO.
I wonder if it was that exreme then why wasn't SWAT Called out and if Sgt Sowders was wearing body armor and a helmet? My two cents is that when most non SWAT officers conduct warrants that they don't wear body armor and helmets due to complacy.
RIP Officer, prayers for the family.
No details of the circumstances. Usual refrain from the offender "I didn't know".
Another article, little details:
http://www.officer.com/news/11284640/arrest-made-in-fatal-shooting-of-texas-deputy
The Reaper
12-24-2013, 19:21
This thread reminds me of spirited discussion we had on active shooter few years back. Many mentioned Beslan scenario is coming. Well, when it does, wouldn't "militarization" of the PD allow them to stand a bit better chance against well-armed-ill-intentioned jihadis?
I must admit I'm more warm and fuzzy towards our PD brethern after taking few classes with them, and when PD is purchasing Barrett M107, 416, etc. one can't deny the direction of militarization. The Puerto Rico PD explained to me the SOP for the use of Barrett was for barricade and boat interdiction scenarios
A Beslan scenario here will not be handled by local LE unless it goes critical before the Feds get there.
And there are very few local SWAT teams with sufficient manpower and talent to conduct that assault.
TR
Team Sergeant
12-25-2013, 12:20
A Beslan scenario here will not be handled by local LE unless it goes critical before the Feds get there.
And there are very few local SWAT teams with sufficient manpower and talent to conduct that assault.
TR
And even if the feds arrive I'd expect few hostages to survive..... lawyers with guns (FBI) don't fair well in any gunfights.....
TacOfficer
12-25-2013, 15:23
Who would a QP want to respond to the above incident?
The Reaper
12-25-2013, 15:42
Who would a QP want to respond to the above incident?
A unit that we will not be discussing here.
TR
TacOfficer
12-25-2013, 16:44
A unit that we will not be discussing here.
TR
Understood.
Let me put it another way? If a QP would choose an option available for discussion?
Thanks in advance.
miclo18d
12-26-2013, 07:09
Understood.
Let me put it another way? If a QP would choose an option available for discussion?
Thanks in advance.
Troop 323 of the BSA. That would be my choice.
Years ago, before I retired from law enforcement, I was a certified SWAT instructor for the state I worked in and I trained our department's tactical team (we chose not to call it "SWAT").
The resource (team) became available because the chief wanted one. He wanted one because no other nearby department had one. It was essentially a ego thing.
But we created, equipped and trained a pretty decent team to include having a very non-threatening, low profile vehicle to move it around in and it did some good work although not often.
BLUF - if you've bought it (sold the powers that be that your department and community really really REALLY needs such a resource and they've paid for it) you have to use it...or you'll lose it budgeting wise.
Which means there is the very real tendency to over-use this capability and to use it where good old fashioned and seasoned street officers could get the same thing done (warrant service, for example) and often more safely and smarter.
To me, today, it's all about the money. Getting grants and posturing to your fellow chiefs and sheriffs about how your department now has its own "door kickers" and the latest greatest equipment.
Give me a street smart cop who knows the case, the folks involved and loves being creative. He or she will get 98% of the "high risk" arrests done without mishap or the front page of the newspaper's announcement of how "SWAT" shot yet another family pet.
I'd like to see a copy of the warrant and officers reports.
Little more info from "Coach is Right" ...
Deputy killed as SWAT Team breaks through door to serve “No Knock” warrant
http://www.coachisright.com/deputy-killed-swat-team-breaks-door-serve-knock-warrant/
"On December 19th, a sheriff’s deputy was shot and killed during an attempt to serve a “no knock” warrant near Sommerville, Texas. Just before 6:00 A.M. an 8 member SWAT team broke through the door of Henry Goedrich Magee to serve a warrant which would permit the team to search the mobile home in which Magee and his pregnant girlfriend were living......."
He was one downright dangerous dude...
Must have thought he would flush the pot plants down the commode.
DJ Urbanovsky
12-28-2013, 13:48
That was my first thought, TR.
A unit that we will not be discussing here.
TR
Well, it appears it is more dangerous driving to the scene than it is operating at the scene.
I saw floating around somewhere on the net that the 2013 stats show 46 killed in traffic accedents and 33 killed by gunfire.
(But to be fair I'm sure some of those 46 were taken down by some dumb ass driver who ran them down while the LEO was at a traffic stop or accident.)
The below story demonstrates, again, you cannot fix stupid.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/31/pepper-spray-skipping-school/4263321/
As a now retired LEO I met guys (and gals) who did this kind of thing and gave it no thought until a complaint was made.
"Spraying cats..." - perhaps more a CAT4 officer:D
GratefulCitizen
01-20-2014, 20:44
This type of action will prove far more effective over the long term:
http://youtu.be/8P-2pEmR3y4
Hearts and minds.
FlagDayNCO
02-05-2014, 09:31
Scenes from a militarized America: Iowa family ‘terrorized’
By Radley Balko, Updated: February 4 at 10:37 am
Watch this video, taken from a police raid in Des Moines, Iowa. Send it to some people. When critics (like me) warn about the dangers of police militarization, this is what we’re talking about. You’ll see the raid team, dressed in battle-dress uniforms, helmets and face-covering balaclava hoods take down the family’s door with a battering ram. You’ll see them storm the home with ballistics shields, guns at the ready. More troubling still, you’ll see not one but two officers attempt to prevent the family from having an independent record of the raid, one by destroying a surveillance camera, another by blocking another camera’s lens.
From the images in the video, you’d think they were looking for an escaped murderer or a house full of hit men. No, none of that. They were looking for a few people suspected of credit card fraud. None of the people they were looking for were inside of the house, nor was any of the stolen property they were looking for. They did arrest two houseguests of the family on what the news report says were unrelated charges, one for a probation violation and one for possession of illegal drugs.
A couple other points about this story. First, note that the police say they knocked and announced themselves before the raid. The knock and announce requirement has a long history in U.S. and English common law. Its purpose was to give the occupants of a home the opportunity to avoid property damage and unnecessary violence by giving them time to come to the door and let the police in peacefully. As you can see from the video, the knock and announce today is largely a formality. The original purpose is gone. From the perspective of the people inside, there’s really no difference between this sort of “knock and announce” and a no-knock raid. (The covering of the officers’ faces is also troubling, though also not uncommon.)
Historically, the other purpose of the knock-and-announce requirement is to avoid the inevitable tragedy that can result if homeowners mistake raiding police for criminal intruders. As the requirement has been eroded, allegedly to protect the safety of police officers, we’ve seen plenty of tragedy — and many of those tragedies have been the deaths of police officers. There was another one just last December. And it almost happened here:
Prince’s son, Justin Ross, was in the bathroom when police burst in, and he was carrying a gun that he has the legal right to carry. “I stood up, I drew my weapon, I started to get myself together to get out the door, I heard someone in the main room say police. I re-holstered my weapon sat back down and put my hands in my lap,” Ross recalls.
Ross says he didn’t hear the police announcement until after one officer had already attempted to kick in the door. Had that officer been successful, there’s a good chance that Ross, the police officer, or both would be dead. The police department would then have inevitably argued that Ross should have known that they were law enforcement. But you can’t simultaneously argue that these violent, volatile tactics are necessary to take suspects by surprise and that the same suspects you’re taking by surprise should have known all along that they were being raided by police. Well you can, and police do, and judges and prosecutors usually support them. But the arguments don’t logically coexist.
Finally, note that police department officials say they “do not have a written policy governing how search warrants are executed.” That’s inexcusable. Most police departments do. But whether or not they’re governed by a formal policy, the use of these kinds of tactics for nonviolent crimes like credit card fraud is hardly unusual, and it’s happening more often, not less. I’ve reported on jurisdictions where all felony search warrants are now served with a SWAT team. At least one federal appeals court has now ruled that under the Fourth Amendment, there’s nothing unreasonable about using a SWAT team to perform regulatory inspections. To be fair, two others have ruled that such tactics are not reasonable. But it’s concerning that this would even be up for debate. We have plenty of discussion and analysis about when searches are appropriate. We also need to start talking about how.
Washington Post civil liberties blogger Radley Balko is author of the book Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America’s Police Forces.
/////// Web page below has the link to the video.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/opinions/wp/2014/02/04/scenes-from-a-militarized-america-iowa-family-terrorized//?print=1
GratefulCitizen
02-09-2014, 20:58
http://p.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/feb/6/homeowner-outraged-swat-uses-home-spy-camp-absent-/
Encroaching the 3rd Amendment?
<edit>
Other interesting news:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacobsullum/2014/02/07/texas-grand-jury-declines-to-indict-pot-grower-who-shot-and-killed-a-cop-during-a-raid/
This is not exactly news; (the incident occured on July 5, 2011) but I did a search and could find no links/threads to the murder of a homeless man - Kelly Thomas - in Fullerton, CA. Apparently, Thomas suffered from schizophrenia, according to his father. Now I know people who work at institutions for "troubled" and violent people; and I have witnessed firsthand a demonstration of how to quickly immobilize such individuals without harm to either the violent individual or to those who have to deal with them. What happened to this man was utterly unnecessary and brutal.
If you listen carefully at approx. 10 mins. into the tape, this human version of the Pillsbury DoughBoy keeps telling Thomas "Feet out in front of you." Well, Thomas' feet are out in front of him. Then a little bit later you can hear DoughBoy say: "You see my fist? Well, it's going to fuck you up." ** Nice talk from a so-called "professional". **
Here is the link to the video of the entire confrontation. (Unfortunately, since this was apparently close to traffic, the background noise of the traffic makes some things difficult to hear. I wish there was a way to filter that out!) These cops - none of whom weighed in at less than 230 lbs. - beat and crushed this man to death, and all were exonerated from any wrongdoing in Orange County Superior Court. And all but one has been returned to active duty. There is something seriously wrong with these LE employees to have found it necessary to literally kill this man. And something even more seriously wrong for a court to have found all "innocent of any wrongdoing". I'm not saying that Kelly Thomas was innocent of all wrongdoing. Apparently, he had stolen peoples' mail. Was he a screwed-up individual? You bet. But IMO that was no reason for that man to have paid the price he paid. Any opinions?
http://www.ocregister.com/video/v/1628003509001/crime-fullerton-government
Following the entire timeline, apparently there are some of these psychopathic cops who are no longer employed in that municipality. Precious little comfort, I'm afraid.
Cops have to remember that "That badge on your chest covers a small portion of your chest and none of your arse!"
I remember watching the special video that was shown across the country in just about every agency in the country within 4-6 months after it occurred. This was LAPD's shootout at the North Hollywood bank. We were all interested in this video up to the point when the senior sergeant on SWAT told everybody that the AK-47 round would penetrate through an engine block. Then most of us started to question the validity of the entire video at that point. Also, IMHO, they are given a larger leash than should be allowed and the length gets a little bigger every year with such things a "The Patriot Act, The NDAA, and by executive order.
Any of you think these officers are out of line?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IqZOdtcGFg
:)
Any of you think these officers are out of line?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IqZOdtcGFg
:)
Wonder what would happen if you went downtown, stood outside their office and started taking pictures outside their office.
Lets start with coming over and telling you it against the law to take their pictures, they go for your camera, you start to complain, they put you on the ground, beat the shit out of you while they scream "stop resisting", bust your camera, frogmarch you inside, process you, make you sit in jail a while then a few weeks later drop the charges of resisting arrest.
Streck-Fu
02-13-2014, 14:01
SWAT drug raid based on 'informant' that was busted. Investigator claimed to 'smell strong chemicals'......During raid, 80 year old man shot in bed. Shooting officer first claimed to confront in the hallway, investigators call bullshit.
LINK (http://reason.com/reasontv/2014/02/13/police-shoot-kill-80-year-old)
In the early morning hours of June 27, 2013, a team of Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department deputies pulled up to the home of Eugene Mallory, an 80-year-old retired engineer living in the rural outskirts of Los Angeles county with his wife Tonya Pate and stepson Adrian Lamos.
The deputies crashed through the front gate and began executing a search warrant for methamphetamine on the property. Detective Patrick Hobbs, a self-described narcotics expert who claimed he "smelled the strong odor of chemicals" downwind from the house after being tipped off to illegal activity from an anonymous informant, spearheaded the investigation.
The deputies announced their presence, and Pate emerged from the trailer where she'd been sleeping to escape the sweltering summer heat of the California desert. Lamos and a couple of friends emerged from another trailer, and a handyman tinkering with a car on the property also gave himself up without resistance. But Mallory, who preferred to sleep in the house, was nowhere to be seen.
Deputies approached the house, and what happened next is where things get murky. The deputies said they announced their presence upon entering and were met in the hallway by the 80-year-old man, wielding a gun and stumbling towards them. The deputies later changed the story when the massive bloodstains on Mallory's mattress indicated to investigators that he'd most likely been in bed at the time of the shooting. Investigators also found that an audio recording of the incident revealed a discrepancy in the deputies' original narrative:
Before listening to the audio recording, [Sgt. John] Bones believed that he told Mallory to "Drop the gun" prior to the shooting. The recording revealed, however, that his commands to "Drop the gun" occurred immediately after the shooting.
When it was all over, Eugene Mallory died of six gunshot wounds from Sgt. John Bones' MP-5 9mm submachine gun. When a coroner arrived, he found the loaded .22 caliber pistol the two deputies claimed Mallory had pointed at them on the bedside table.
Mallory had not fired a single shot. The raid turned up no evidence of methamphetamine on the property.
To find out more about this case, including details about what the police did find, watch the above video, featuring Mallory's widow Tonya Pate. Pate has filed a wrongful death lawsuit against the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department, an agency plagued by prison abuse scandals, questionable hiring practices, and allegations of racial profiling and harassment in recent years.
The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department declined multiple requests to comment on this story.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZFlIK-zAO8
The were executing a narcotics warrant for meth but try to sell finding a small amount of medical MJ that belonged to his step-son as a 'grow operation'....LINK (http://ktla.com/2013/10/10/widow-to-sue-over-fatal-shooting-of-husband-80-by-sheriffs-deputies/#axzz2hhs0vpGC)
During the June raid, Mallory raised a semi-automatic handgun in response to deputies, who fired on him, the sheriff’s department said at the time. Two guns were recovered at the scene, according to sheriff’s department spokesman Steve Whitmore.
“Age does not preclude somebody from being aggressive toward deputies,” Whitmore said. “The lesson here is… don’t pull a gun on a deputy.”
Pate said Mallory, a former engineer with Lockheed Martin, respected law enforcement and would never have used a gun against officers.
“He would never point a gun at officers,” said Pate, 48. “Every day I stay in that house with that bloody bedroom … where I know he was taken from me for no reason.”
Mallory did own two guns that were in the house, Pate said. She said his glasses were beside his bed when he was killed, and could not have seen because of poor eyesight.
“He was shot in his bed before there was any warning given,” Bergener said..
Marijuana was found on another part of the property where Tonya’s lived, she said.
“There was a drug operation that was certainly going on in this house,” Whitmore said.
Pericles
02-14-2014, 15:59
RIP Officer, prayers for the family.
No details of the circumstances. Usual refrain from the offender "I didn't know".
Another article, little details:
http://www.officer.com/news/11284640/arrest-made-in-fatal-shooting-of-texas-deputy
No bill from the Grand Jury.
gwill034
02-25-2014, 09:19
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ar-15-issued-school-police-one-utah-district-n37921
Came across this browsing around this AM. Seems like an interesting addition to the Beslan and Use it or Lose it aspects of this thread.
School Police with AR15s, necessary?
...long gone are the days when citizens saw LEAs as "officer friendly"
This is a crack pot website, but the video is crazy
TEXAS HIGHWAY COPS CONDUCTING WARRANTLESS VAGINAL SEARCHES
http://tellmenow.com/video-texas-highway-cops-conducting-warrantless-vaginal-searches/
I remember when I went down to our State School to be an Instructor in "Chemical & Specialty Munitions". When we got to the part on using "Flashbangs" (We were using Def-Tech's No. 25) we were warned about Federal Law governing their use. When the Instructor told us that we were to to make a quick look into the house, building, doorways, and rooms before deploying them it made me shutter to think that I could get killed very easily.
The reason we had to look was a huge mistake made by the LAPD many years ago. From what we were told was that the LAPD went in to bang a house. They tossed flashbangs into every open window, including a second floor window. That flashbang had landed in a baby's crib with a few months old baby in it. The baby was killed instantly. With Law Enforcement work, when I was into it, everything seemed to go from west coast to east coast including all of the bad things done by both good and bad.
This includes the story of a officer who was in the original LAPD SWAT and responded to the North Hollywood shoot-out. We watched the video during "In-Service" Training once and everything seemed a mess but it looked like they were handling it. Then this guy comes out and says something like "The round an AK shoots will go through and engine block!" A few of us chuckled and I for one refused to belief anything he had to say in the rest of the video.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ar-15-issued-school-police-one-utah-district-n37921
Came across this browsing around this AM. Seems like an interesting addition to the Beslan and Use it or Lose it aspects of this thread.
School Police with AR15s, necessary?
Nope...
Saw a cop directing traffic near a race track in phoenix this past weekend who was dressed like a Navy SEAL in desert camo, boonie hat and all . Ridiculous, and funny. Least he wasn't fat...would of lost it
ps. if u were the officer I was in the red gt wearing a beaver brown cowboy hat smilin' - sorry
From The Economist no less
Cops or soldiers? (http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21599349-americas-police-have-become-too-militarised-cops-or-soldiers)
Streck-Fu
03-24-2014, 06:09
From The Economist no less
Cops or soldiers? (http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21599349-americas-police-have-become-too-militarised-cops-or-soldiers)
A big part of the problem is defined in these paragraphs from that linked article:
Because of a legal quirk, SWAT raids can be profitable. Rules on civil asset-forfeiture allow the police to seize anything which they can plausibly claim was the proceeds of a crime. Crucially, the property-owner need not be convicted of that crime. If the police find drugs in his house, they can take his cash and possibly the house, too. He must sue to get them back.
Many police departments now depend on forfeiture for a fat chunk of their budgets. In 1986, its first year of operation, the federal Asset Forfeiture Fund held $93.7m. By 2012, that and the related Seized Asset Deposit Fund held nearly $6 billion.
There should be strict guidelines that limit the use of SWAT teams, the following would not in my estimation be one of them.
" In fact they were looking for $1,000-worth of clothes and electronics allegedly bought with a stolen credit card. They found none of these things, but arrested two people in the house on unrelated charges."
FlagDayNCO
03-24-2014, 07:09
A big part of the problem is defined in these paragraphs from that linked article:
The glaring symbol of this is the War on Drugs. Any Police Administrator worth his/ her weight in lead finds every reason and avenue to add equipment, man power and training to their force, by invoking the War on Drugs.
Every thing the Police Officers do is connected to a payment/ cost center. "Who is going to pay for this?", is the most frequently asked question in a Police Administration meeting.
I laugh when I see the news articles that a local town has increased patrols, with a State or Federal grant to pay the Police Officers overtime. Every Officer has to have a specialty or training in an area, beyond normal police work. When you look at a total number of personnel, the Sworn Officers, then compare that number to the actual number patrolling. Many places have less on actual patrol than assigned to special duties.
I have to guess there is no normal patrolling during regular shifts.
Team Sergeant
03-24-2014, 09:25
A big part of the problem is defined in these paragraphs from that linked article:
Exactly why many pot growers grow weed on "federal" land.
And for the record I take offense to calling police "warriors". As someone already said "Armed Social Workers" is a better definition.....
Because of a legal quirk, SWAT raids can be profitable. Rules on civil asset-forfeiture allow the police to seize anything which they can plausibly claim was the proceeds of a crime. Crucially, the property-owner need not be convicted of that crime. If the police find drugs in his house, they can take his cash and possibly the house, too. He must sue to get them back.
Many police departments now depend on forfeiture for a fat chunk of their budgets. In 1986, its first year of operation, the federal Asset Forfeiture Fund held $93.7m. By 2012, that and the related Seized Asset Deposit Fund held nearly $6 billion.
I was channel flipping and came across one of those reality cop shows featuring the Tampa police. They'd set up a sting selling tiny amounts of pot--1/16 to 1/8 of an ounce--in a drive-up setting. The gloating directed at the stingees was sickening. "You just made the last payment, har-dee-har? Well your car is ours now." "But I'll lose my job."
Rich guys get it delivered like pizza, poor guys lose their cars.
Anyone who says that we are NOT living in a "Police State", are living themselves living in a fool's paradise.
Here's a link (with video) of ABQ police shooting and killing a homeless man who was "camping illegally."
http://readychimp.com/2014/03/24/horrific-footage-of-campers-last-breath-as-cops-murder-him/
A recent study shows, that people are more afraid of being killed by the police, than they are of being killed by, or in, a terrorist action.
Anyone who says that we are NOT living in a "Police State", are living themselves living in a fool's paradise.
Here's a link (with video) of ABQ police shooting and killing a homeless man who was "camping illegally."
http://readychimp.com/2014/03/24/horrific-footage-of-campers-last-breath-as-cops-murder-him/
A recent study shows, that people are more afraid of being killed by the police, than they are of being killed by, or in, a terrorist action.
Why even bother hauling the LTL shotguns up the hill? I guess they make it more convenient to check a corpse than by poking it with a stick.
Streck-Fu
03-26-2014, 07:45
The reason we had to look was a huge mistake made by the LAPD many years ago. From what we were told was that the LAPD went in to bang a house. They tossed flashbangs into every open window, including a second floor window. That flashbang had landed in a baby's crib with a few months old baby in it. The baby was killed instantly. With Law Enforcement work, when I was into it, everything seemed to go from west coast to east coast including all of the bad things done by both good and bad.
Unfortunately, not all agencies are learning from the operational scars of others. And add another SWAT raid for suspected meth lab that results in no arrests or evidence.
LINK (http://missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/grenade-burns-sleeping-girl-as-swat-team-raids-billings-home/article_71d1f226-1474-11e2-b4b4-0019bb2963f4.html)
Grenade burns sleeping girl as SWAT team raids Billings home
A 12-year-old girl suffered burns to one side of her body when a flash grenade went off next to her as a police SWAT team raided a West End home Tuesday morning.
..............
A SWAT member attached it to a boomstick, a metal pole that detonates the grenade, and stuck it through the bedroom window. St. John said the grenade normally stays on the boomstick so it goes off in a controlled manner at a higher level.
However, the officer didn't realize that there was a delay on the grenade when he tried to detonate it. He dropped it to move onto a new device, St. John said. The grenade fell to the floor and went off near the girl.
"It was totally unforeseen, totally unplanned and extremely regrettable," St. John said. "We certainly did not want a juvenile, or anyone else for that matter, to get injured."
............
A SWAT member attached it to a boomstick, a metal pole that detonates the grenade, and stuck it through the bedroom window. St. John said the grenade normally stays on the boomstick so it goes off in a controlled manner at a higher level.
However, the officer didn't realize that there was a delay on the grenade when he tried to detonate it. He dropped it to move onto a new device, St. John said. The grenade fell to the floor and went off near the girl.
"It was totally unforeseen, totally unplanned and extremely regrettable," St. John said. "We certainly did not want a juvenile, or anyone else for that matter, to get injured."
................
No arrests were made during the raid and no charges have been filed, although a police spokesman said afterward that some evidence was recovered during the search. St. John declined to release specifics of the drug case, citing the active investigation, but did say that "activity was significant enough where our drug unit requested a search warrant."
ddoering
03-26-2014, 07:51
And now to fabricate enough evidence to avoid a law suit......
This is really beginning to get old - and infuriating! Yet another "incident" with a cop behaving badly. WTF?? What's wrong with these idiots? It seems like this is happening on a weekly basis somewhere in the USSofA. :confused:
He Cooperated with the Cops -- and is Paying the Price: The Ordeal of Mark Byrge
http://www.freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2014/03/he-cooperated-with-cops-and-is-paying.html
"Grenade burns sleeping girl as SWAT team raids Billings home..."
Their intel and their training both suck.
Damocles
03-26-2014, 15:57
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL-1tm2dm8k&feature=em-subs_digest-vrecs
The glaring symbol of this is the War on Drugs. Any Police Administrator worth his/ her weight in lead finds every reason and avenue to add equipment, man power and training to their force, by invoking the War on Drugs.
That's the only reason they keep the losing 'War' going...unless of course they missed their American History class - all of them!
It is also possible they are just plain insane as defined by Einstein. Most PC Clinical folks today would put it under the extremely low IQ group...:D
I remember growing up when cops were meant to "Serve and Protect."
Now it seems they've changed their strips. They're more along the lines of, "To Scare and Intimidate."
:munchin
Scenes from a militarized America: Iowa family TERRORIZED! (Video)
Watch this video, taken from a police raid in Des Moines, Iowa. Send it to some people. When critics (like me) warn about the dangers of police militarization, this is what we’re talking about. You’ll see the raid team, dressed in battle-dress uniforms, helmets and face-covering balaclava hoods take down the family’s door with a battering ram.
You’ll see them storm the home with ballistics shields, guns at the ready. More troubling still, you’ll see not one but two officers attempt to prevent the family from having an independent record of the raid, one by destroying a surveillance camera, another by blocking another camera’s lens.
Link with video ..... http://www.thefederalistpapers.org/us-constitution/scenes-from-a-militarized-america-iowa-family-terrorized-video
TacOfficer
04-15-2014, 20:27
I don't expect much empathy, but the scenario law enforcement finds itself in has evolved.
Mayberry has fallen. Domestic terrorism exists. Happy anniversary Boston.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/04/15/day-tributes-to-mark-boston-marathon-bombing-anniversary/
Of course, the police over reacted with long guns and pistols chasing two poor immigrant boys around town that were just expressing their first amendment rights, maybe the second amendment too. They were about to turn their lives around. I'm sure the MIT officer's family feels bad that his killer, whoops I mean the oppressed citizen, was offended by all that militarized police presence (http://tech.mit.edu/V133/N19/policeman.html).
Foreign terrorism on US soil is just a myth. It would never happen here, not with our "Dear Leader" at the controls. Hasn't he restarted and made friends with all those misunderstood nations that support misunderstood individuals looking for an outlet for their feelings.
I'm sure the armed forces feel they have all the resources they need to prevent a domestic attack. Police don't even need to be armed. Look how well it's working out for the Brits, nobody has a gun there. Just try to avoid taking the underground (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings), or African immigrants with kitchen knives (http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/may/22/police-respond-serious-incident-woolwich) .
The men and women I serve with could care less if a hippy or some low life wants to smoke a little weed to forget his troubles. We are engaged with an organized adversary that is well funded, armed and entrenched in communities.
I agree with all that say that the application of force must be measured and appropriate to the circumstance. I also agree that excessive force should always be brought to light for accountability. I am a big supporter of the second amendment. A well armed citizenry will give pause to the predatory criminal. But if you think police should be armed with smile and a ticket book, unable to defend the citizens they swore to protect, themselves and come best prepared, I don't think anyone would take the job and throw away their life.
If all you want is a report taker, or social worker, we'll be happy to appease your wishes. Let the citizens take their stand, after all it's granny's right to self defense and she doesn't need any help at all while the two local boy's choirs settle their disagreement on who gets control of the fund raising corner. Just call us when it's over and we'll give you a report for you records.
Oh and we might be a little late because everyone knows that we ain't goin' till the last doughnut's done.
I don't expect much empathy, but the scenario law enforcement finds itself in has evolved.
Mayberry has fallen. Domestic terrorism exists. Happy anniversary Boston.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/04/15/day-tributes-to-mark-boston-marathon-bombing-anniversary/
Of course, the police over reacted with long guns and pistols chasing two poor immigrant boys around town that were just expressing their first amendment rights, maybe the second amendment too. They were about to turn their lives around. I'm sure the MIT officer's family feels bad that his killer, whoops I mean the oppressed citizen, was offended by all that militarized police presence (http://tech.mit.edu/V133/N19/policeman.html).
Foreign terrorism on US soil is just a myth. It would never happen here, not with our "Dear Leader" at the controls. Hasn't he restarted and made friends with all those misunderstood nations that support misunderstood individuals looking for an outlet for their feelings.
I'm sure the armed forces feel they have all the resources they need to prevent a domestic attack. Police don't even need to be armed. Look how well it's working out for the Brits, nobody has a gun there. Just try to avoid taking the underground (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings), or African immigrants with kitchen knives (http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/may/22/police-respond-serious-incident-woolwich) .
The men and women I serve with could care less if a hippy or some low life wants to smoke a little weed to forget his troubles. We are engaged with an organized adversary that is well funded, armed and entrenched in communities.
I agree with all that say that the application of force must be measured and appropriate to the circumstance. I also agree that excessive force should always be brought to light for accountability. I am a big supporter of the second amendment. A well armed citizenry will give pause to the predatory criminal. But if you think police should be armed with smile and a ticket book, unable to defend the citizens they swore to protect, themselves and come best prepared, I don't think anyone would take the job and throw away their life.
If all you want is a report taker, or social worker, we'll be happy to appease your wishes. Let the citizens take their stand, after all it's granny's right to self defense and she doesn't need any help at all while the two local boy's choirs settle their disagreement on who gets control of the fund raising corner. Just call us when it's over and we'll give you a report for you records.
Oh and we might be a little late because everyone knows that we ain't goin' till the last doughnut's done.
I'm sure that some of that rant was supposed to be in pink font.
Some of the points you made are valid, but you left out the part where Political Correctness has placed less-than-capable officers on the force. And some of those are now Chiefs.
Pat
Have to say you have a point and made it well. I know there have to be cells here....
Oops - Just noticed there's a keylogger on my tablet...
It has just gotten too out of control...and they win. If only we looked to Israel for counter terror and implemented it - not PC enough.
Where ever you are the citizens should be proud to have men like you.
TacOfficer
04-15-2014, 21:01
Thank you,
I agree with you both. PC has killed our department, not to mention the corruption that rules Chicago.
miclo18d
04-15-2014, 21:15
I don't expect much empathy, but the scenario law enforcement finds itself in has evolved.
Mayberry has fallen. Domestic terrorism exists. Happy anniversary Boston.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/04/15/day-tributes-to-mark-boston-marathon-bombing-anniversary/
Of course, the police over reacted with long guns and pistols chasing two poor immigrant boys around town that were just expressing their first amendment rights, maybe the second amendment too. They were about to turn their lives around. I'm sure the MIT officer's family feels bad that his killer, whoops I mean the oppressed citizen, was offended by all that militarized police presence (http://tech.mit.edu/V133/N19/policeman.html).
Foreign terrorism on US soil is just a myth. It would never happen here, not with our "Dear Leader" at the controls. Hasn't he restarted and made friends with all those misunderstood nations that support misunderstood individuals looking for an outlet for their feelings.
I'm sure the armed forces feel they have all the resources they need to prevent a domestic attack. Police don't even need to be armed. Look how well it's working out for the Brits, nobody has a gun there. Just try to avoid taking the underground (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings), or African immigrants with kitchen knives (http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/may/22/police-respond-serious-incident-woolwich) .
The men and women I serve with could care less if a hippy or some low life wants to smoke a little weed to forget his troubles. We are engaged with an organized adversary that is well funded, armed and entrenched in communities.
I agree with all that say that the application of force must be measured and appropriate to the circumstance. I also agree that excessive force should always be brought to light for accountability. I am a big supporter of the second amendment. A well armed citizenry will give pause to the predatory criminal. But if you think police should be armed with smile and a ticket book, unable to defend the citizens they swore to protect, themselves and come best prepared, I don't think anyone would take the job and throw away their life.
If all you want is a report taker, or social worker, we'll be happy to appease your wishes. Let the citizens take their stand, after all it's granny's right to self defense and she doesn't need any help at all while the two local boy's choirs settle their disagreement on who gets control of the fund raising corner. Just call us when it's over and we'll give you a report for you records.
Oh and we might be a little late because everyone knows that we ain't goin' till the last doughnut's done.
[rant: on]
"Mayberry has fallen, domestic terrorism exists" - and by militarizing the police you create the self licking ice cream cone. The preverbal self fulfilling prophecy by creating the world that the 'domestic terrorists' see by the militarization of the police. McVeigh blew up that building because he believed the police were becoming militarized which made the police militarized. Yay, the world changed! Let's just be communists while were in the game of fundamentally changing everything!
I guess you forgot when the oppressed immigrant boys were being sought, all of the 4th amendment protections of the citizens of the area being violated. The fact that their 2nd amendment rights have already been revoked so that they have to depend on the militarized police force to kick in their own doors to look for the extremely dangerous kid hiding in a boat. Then shooting said UNARMED criminal in the name of officer safety (probably while doing the PMMA - Police Modified Mexican Ambush).
If the shoe fits Officer Fife...
I can take care of any terrorists and bombs on my street, not sure if you and your tacticool ninjas can say the same. He'll, your fellow federal agents can't even police up a herd of cows.
If your job description and oath doesn't include "jack booted thug" or "constitutional rapist" in it then make sure that you're not acting like it.
I think you've mistaken this thread as a bust on cops thread. It's more like a 'when the hell did cops become commandos?' thread.
[/rant: off]
TacOfficer
04-15-2014, 22:45
Post edited.
TacOfficer
04-15-2014, 23:10
[rant: on]
"Mayberry has fallen, domestic terrorism exists" - and by militarizing the police you create the self licking ice cream cone. The preverbal self fulfilling prophecy by creating the world that the 'domestic terrorists' see by the militarization of the police. McVeigh blew up that building because he believed the police were becoming militarized which made the police militarized. Yay, the world changed! Let's just be communists while were in the game of fundamentally changing everything!
I guess you forgot when the oppressed immigrant boys were being sought, all of the 4th amendment protections of the citizens of the area being violated. The fact that their 2nd amendment rights have already been revoked so that they have to depend on the militarized police force to kick in their own doors to look for the extremely dangerous kid hiding in a boat. Then shooting said UNARMED criminal in the name of officer safety (probably while doing the PMMA - Police Modified Mexican Ambush).
If the shoe fits Officer Fife...
I can take care of any terrorists and bombs on my street, not sure if you and your tacticool ninjas can say the same. He'll, your fellow federal agents can't even police up a herd of cows.
If your job description and oath doesn't include "jack booted thug" or "constitutional rapist" in it then make sure that you're not acting like it.
I think you've mistaken this thread as a bust on cops thread. It's more like a 'when the hell did cops become commandos?' thread.
[/rant: off]
McVeigh was a psychopath that took it upon himself to avenge the deaths of Ruby Ridge and Waco buy killing 168 men, women and children and wounding over 600.
I'm not what you call one of his fans.
If your argument is that the perceptions of the police justify or incite violent antisocial behavior, then I fail to follow your logic to its end.
I suppose you forgot the rule concerning "Exigent circumstances"? Yes, I would like the police combing through my neighborhood looking for the offenders who blew up the Boston Marathon. I must admit I'm not aware of the MSM posting the citizen's complaints because the police were violating their rights.
I would have loved to try Aunt Bea's homemade pie.
I'm sure you can take of yourself, I'm willing to bet that most on this forum have the right mindset and formal training to address the threat, however we also serve those that are unable or unwilling. As for the cow thing, one of the few time I agree with the Feds, they chose to de-escalate a situation that had the potential for loss of life over back fees and steak.
Heck, I was never issued those boots and frankly they don't seem comfortable, though the mounted unit uses them.
I have seen my share of extremist over play the "Constitution" card as much as others play the "Race" card. Sometimes all at once! I serve, protect and defend everyone's constitutional rights. I don't disagree that there is over zealous and sometimes criminal behavior by the Feds i.e: Fast and Furious or police i.e Abbate (our local politically connected idiot). Believe it or not in my opinion, our biggest issue in the department are those hired either by PC or cronyism that are absolute dogs. They wouldn't get off their butts to save the proverbial "Granny", let alone make the effort to violate somebody's rights.
It did seem to be going that way, I do not take offense when abuses are brought to light. Every house needs to be cleaned. Police aren't commando's, agreed. To ignore or not be prepared to respond to the threat is foolish. Just because someone doesn't like the image of a policeman carrying an AR with body amour, doesn't mean I'm going to an active shooter or gang shooting in my dress blues with my dad's Colt six shooter. The police were caught with their pants down during the North Hollywood, CA bank robbery. I wouldn't call it self-fulfilling, I would call it lesson learned.
Streck-Fu
04-16-2014, 05:56
RE: Boston bombing.
In spite of all that manpower, helicopters with FLIR, hours of searching, APCs with turrets, house to house searches, a home owner found him in the boat after the police searched the area and called it clear....
If the police want to justify the military equipment and tactics as necessary to ensuring the public safety, then it needs to be successful during the most public display of such a need. What we took away from that search is that even with all that tacticool technology, they still can't catch a wounded bleeding kid.
miclo18d
04-16-2014, 05:58
Tell that to the family that was hit with a "SWAT" team in Iowa for harboring 2 suspected of credit fraud.
I think we've already had the discussion here about 'use it or loose it' mentality of "SWAT" teams.
Exigency and Terry stops can be construed to just about anything to include violation of the constitution under the guise that it was a Supreme Court ruling therefor cops will use them to only bust criminals and when they stop Joe Citizen on the street they WON'T use those rules. Or is it PoPo's discretion? That's like congress making laws that allow them insider trading. Rule for thee, not for me.
I'll bet you call Joe Citizens "civilians" don't you? Like you are in some other class than we are. Above the law much?
A sheriffs deputy (for another county) just moved in down the street from us. I thought, awesome, we have a LEO in our neighborhood! The first time I saw the guy he was stealing water from the lot next door to water his lawn! Now what would a cop do if that had been me stealing that water? What is my recourse for that? Call my county's deputies? Riiiiiiiiight! Piss of a neighbor AND a cop!
Another time when my wife rolled a stop sign, the cop came up to her with huge attitude until he realized that she had called me and I was listening on speaker phone. His attitude changed quickly. (The fact that he said not all 4 tires came to a stop made me laugh. How many did come to a stop officer? 2...3?)
If there were hundreds and hundreds of stories of soldiers taking ears and shooting noncombatants were pervading the news, I'd bet you would have a lot to say about that. I could tell you I wouldn't be defending that. I would have run from the military. "Good" people do bad things. Cops, soldiers, doctors, garbage men. There will always be bad apples. But when your whole system has been corrupted.... What then?
I hope as you write your rebuttal you search your soul and ensure that you have NEVER used your position for gain.... Whether a free donut, gotten your wife's number while writing her a ticket, or bent the law to catch a criminal! I spent your tax dollars wisely when deployed. I completed every mission lawfully AND morally (sometimes even lawful orders are not moral orders). I did that not for your sake, but for the sake of my soul.
I am disturbed by the tone of some of the comments. Opinions are fine, but too many are frankly, personal attacks.
The Reaper
04-16-2014, 07:45
I agree.
We have one of the most rigorous selection processes in the world, and we still have our 5% who should not be SF.
Like it or not, LE has a large percentage of people who want to protect the sheep, and a few who joined for the gun, the badge, and the authority to abuse. Unfortunately, those people tend to gravitate toward tactical units.
While Andy and Barney never had al Qaeda getting off the bus in downtown Mayberry, they also never breached anyone's door on a 0430 no knock service at the wrong address after killing the family dog with an MP-5SD.
My personal opinion is that having military gear makes it more likely that it is going to be used. When this happens, the odds are that innocents are going to be hurt.
This compromises the ability of LE to build trust and confidence in the community. IMHO, the hearts and minds of the public (and their support) are worth far more than a few million dollars of surplus military gear and a high-speed, low-drag tactical unit pulling violent raids on American citizens' homes in the wee hours.
Just my .02, YMMV.
TR
Streck-Fu
04-16-2014, 07:54
My personal opinion is that having military gear makes it more likely that it is going to be used. When this happens, the odds are that innocents are going to be hurt.
This compromises the ability of LE to build trust and confidence in the community.
The community trust would not suffer so much damage if more Chiefs and administrators would offer apologies, mea culpas, and compensation when those officers do raid the wrong house and shoot the family dog that is fear barking. But the majority of reports show an unapologetic administrator stating that the officers did nothing wrong and merely had bad information.
"Sorry but that druggie we arrested last month claimed to buy it at 115 Maple when he now says he meant 117 Maple. Sorry we didn't have time to verify his claim before sending in SWAT because this is time sensitive information......"
That is evidence that the problem is more systemic than being a small percentage of yahoo low hanging fruit individually abusing their authority.
TacOfficer
04-16-2014, 18:13
Tell that to the family that was hit with a "SWAT" team in Iowa for harboring 2 suspected of credit fraud.
I think we've already had the discussion here about 'use it or loose it' mentality of "SWAT" teams.
Exigency and Terry stops can be construed to just about anything to include violation of the constitution under the guise that it was a Supreme Court ruling therefor cops will use them to only bust criminals and when they stop Joe Citizen on the street they WON'T use those rules. Or is it PoPo's discretion? That's like congress making laws that allow them insider trading. Rule for thee, not for me.
I'll bet you call Joe Citizens "civilians" don't you? Like you are in some other class than we are. Above the law much?
A sheriffs deputy (for another county) just moved in down the street from us. I thought, awesome, we have a LEO in our neighborhood! The first time I saw the guy he was stealing water from the lot next door to water his lawn! Now what would a cop do if that had been me stealing that water? What is my recourse for that? Call my county's deputies? Riiiiiiiiight! Piss of a neighbor AND a cop!
Another time when my wife rolled a stop sign, the cop came up to her with huge attitude until he realized that she had called me and I was listening on speaker phone. His attitude changed quickly. (The fact that he said not all 4 tires came to a stop made me laugh. How many did come to a stop officer? 2...3?)
If there were hundreds and hundreds of stories of soldiers taking ears and shooting noncombatants were pervading the news, I'd bet you would have a lot to say about that. I could tell you I wouldn't be defending that. I would have run from the military. "Good" people do bad things. Cops, soldiers, doctors, garbage men. There will always be bad apples. But when your whole system has been corrupted.... What then?
I hope as you write your rebuttal you search your soul and ensure that you have NEVER used your position for gain.... Whether a free donut, gotten your wife's number while writing her a ticket, or bent the law to catch a criminal! I spent your tax dollars wisely when deployed. I completed every mission lawfully AND morally (sometimes even lawful orders are not moral orders). I did that not for your sake, but for the sake of my soul.
I finally got around to watching the Iowa video.
First off, the police were wearing what looked like Tru-spec green uniforms and clearly marked police vests, not ACUs or camouflage Ninja pajamas. Every yahoo with a credit card and dial-up connection can order those.
Security cameras? Yes an officer clearly disabled those. If you were part of a search warrant team, would you want the targets (we use the term target for the subjects of a search warrant wether it be a person, place or thing) having prior knowledge of your entry. It might just compromise the whole premise and even though some have batted "officer safety" around here like it's a four letter word, it's the highest priority to officers. Not something we take lightly.
As for the "poor family being terrorized" by the big bad police, Ma Kettle wasn't Good House Keeping's homemaker of the year. The "terrorized family" was running a drug house with a sophisticated surveillance system. Poor Jr. was hiding in the bathroom in fear of his life? Really? Would it be a fair assumption that he was flushing contraband down the toilet or did he think they were getting burglarized, hid in the bathroom with a pistol while he left his mother and associates in the open to defend themselves?
The the amusing part was when he related that he holstered his weapon and sat down with his hands folded. He stopped just short of saying "just like I do in church". That might have been even a bit much for him.
Let's not forget the two in-custody. First one had an arrest warrant related to a probation violation on a charge that was already convicted and sentenced for. The second was charged as a result of the search warrant, not with simple possession as in his own personal stash, but possession with intent to deliver. Police usually just call it "Delivery" for short. Now to get those charges approved or charged in court you have to established that there was a large enough quantity of narcotics that was being/had been packaged for distribution.
Jr. isn't in custody because had the opportunity to flush his contraband due to the fact the Police DID knock and announce a search warrant. Now he gets to play the saintly innocent child while exploiting his mother as a prop during an media interview.
Yea, I would like to have the opportunity to explain a couple of things to them. Furthermore, if they are receiving any of my tax dollars, I want them cut off and evicted. Give it to a needy family that isn't using it for criminal enterprise seed money.
shoot the family dog that is fear barking.
God help anyone that shoots little dogs...:mad:
...That is evidence that the problem is more systemic than being a small percentage of yahoo low hanging fruit individually abusing their authority.
There is this story - which would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
LAPD officers tampered with in-car recording equipment, records show
http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-lapd-tamper-20140408,0,7666331.story#ixzz2z8ZUaLZ9
"An inspection by LAPD investigators found about half of the estimated 80 cars in one South L.A. patrol division were missing antennas......"
And before you say it was thugs in the hood who did it...
"...Since the new protocols went into place, only one antenna has been found missing, Smith said..."
Streck-Fu
04-17-2014, 05:24
The "terrorized family" was running a drug house with a sophisticated surveillance system.
Was drug evidence found in the house? At least enough to confirm more than recreational use?
miclo18d
04-17-2014, 05:31
I finally got around to watching the Iowa video.
First off, the police were wearing what looked like Tru-spec green uniforms and clearly marked police vests, not ACUs or camouflage Ninja pajamas. Every yahoo with a credit card and dial-up connection can order those....
Snip
First off I apologize if I shot out any ad hominem attacks. They were an attempt at sarcasm which doesn't always translate between my brain and finger tips. Please forgive me if you took any offense.
However I think that you are missing the Forrest through the trees here.
How about the fact that you are on a Special Forces website, with a screen name of TacOfficer with a picture of a "Secret Squirrel". Do you not find these things as references to SWAT tactics and the fact that militarization of the police force IS in fact happening. Not sure if you know where the term "Secret Squirrel" comes from? Well back in the 80's that's what us Rangers used to call Delta Force guys because we weren't allowed to mention "The Unit" by name. Pretty ironic, eh?
The fact that you missed my references to "Ninjas" was pretty interesting as you brought up that they were wearing Tru-Spec pants as opposed to Military uniforms or ninja suits. "Ninja", is also a reference to special operations, because we sneak around in the dark. It doesn't matter what your/other's SWAT team wears, BDU, ACU, MultiCam...etc. They are wearing them in the style of the military. Why? Do you have a reason to camouflage yourselves getting out of your squad cars? When was the last time you went to the woods? If that office bought their SWAT officers Tru-Spec pants, I applaud the purchase officer for saving us a few tax dollars! You again missed the point, that was, why do you need a SWAT raid to catch a couple of low-life, penny-ante, drug dealers. Did this "hardcore crew" have a history of shooting at police? I bet not. As you said yourself, the only thing he was missing was the Lord's Prayer.
Do you mean to tell me that the only way you can arrest or search a premises is to conduct a SWAT raid? Do you not gather intelligence on your criminals? Could you not catch them when out and about, follow them? Search the home when no one is there? If the quantity of drugs in that house was so small that they could flush it down the toilet, I'm afraid you are wasting tax dollars. You are going after low-hanging fruit. That's lazy in my book. Intent to sell, Distribution, delivery. WOW! How about 40 pounds of marijuana seized. That would be much more impressive than we got a guy with an ounce of weed as he tried to flush it down the toilet, let's nail him for "delivery". How about turning him. Create a source. Create intelligence for your area and go after the big boys, building a case. Do you think we just went house to house looking for Talibs in Afghanistan? Wrong. We had to build cases, with multiple sources before we could "raid" the house. Then had to get our plan approved with other courses of action instead of a raid. I wasn't putting all that time in to catch "Muhammad-the-pissant-rifleman". That's the REAL military reality. Not this wannabe stuff that is turning our citizenry against our police. If you don't see THAT, it may be too late.
Special Operations, specifically Special Forces lives by the creed of "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar". A carrot and stick mentality. You try the honey (or carrot) before you try the vinegar (the stick). You don't alienate the populace that way. You convince the populace you are on their side (cops and citizens against the criminals) NOT the us against them (cops/thin blue line against the citizens that some of whom happen to be criminals but everyone else is "helping them")
Streck-Fu
04-17-2014, 05:52
Do you not gather intelligence on your criminals?
This is a frequent issue in current law enforcement with regards to the deployment of SWAT teams. Too often, the informants are themselves drug dealers that are offered lighter sentences for information. Eager to please, too often they make shit up or give bad information. The police department do little to no verification before sending in SWAT....
But then, when the police investigation consists of an officer claiming to smell chemicals consistent with a meth lab, you get incidents like the death of Eugene Mallory.....LINK (http://ktla.com/2013/10/10/widow-to-sue-over-fatal-shooting-of-husband-80-by-sheriffs-deputies/#axzz2hhs0vpGC)...Note to police, if you are going to claim he pointed a gun at you in the hallway, don;t shoot him in bed and leave his .22 handgun on the night stand....
How about turning him. Create a source. Create intelligence for your area and go after the big boys, building a case.
See above....low hanging fruit most often produces low hanging fruit....
NOT the us against them (cops/thin blue line against the citizens that some of whom happen to be criminals but everyone else is "helping them")
Spot on.
miclo18d
04-17-2014, 07:01
This is a frequent issue in current law enforcement with regards to the deployment of SWAT teams. Too often, the informants are themselves drug dealers that are offered lighter sentences for information. Eager to please, too often they make shit up or give bad information. The police department do little to no verification before sending in SWAT....
But then, when the police investigation consists of an officer claiming to smell chemicals consistent with a meth lab, you get incidents like the death of Eugene Mallory.....LINK (http://ktla.com/2013/10/10/widow-to-sue-over-fatal-shooting-of-husband-80-by-sheriffs-deputies/#axzz2hhs0vpGC)...Note to police, if you are going to claim he pointed a gun at you in the hallway, don;t shoot him in bed and leave his .22 handgun on the night stand....
See above....low hanging fruit most often produces low hanging fruit....
Spot on.
That's my point strek, most sources are low hanging fruit. They are the same to bad guys too. That's what makes them good sources, however, good sources aren't born, they are made. They have to be developed. They have to be taught. They have to be tested and backed up with a second or third source. A source is enough to get a warrant, back that up with photos of sales with an estimate of how much they are supplying, get a wire and back it with what they are talking about and bam! You have a case. You use your CI to get places you can't go. This is so basic it hurts to have to write it.
A good example of over use of force. Guy commits armed robbery 13 yrs ago (with a BB gun). Clerical error doesn't put in him jail (they "forgot"). He gets married, gets a job, has 3 kids, does volunteer work, coaches a little league football team. No other arrests, run-ins the the law, (he did get two speeding tickets). He had a DL with his name & address, he paid his income taxes - basically a model citizen.
Clerk realizes they screwed up - send a SWAT team take him in. If he was going to run - he had 13 years to do so. Why send "oakley"-booted SWAT cops to take him in? I'm surprised they didn't use the MRAP to ram his front door. I'm sure they were all roided up with big plans to put a notch on the buttstock.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/04/17/armed-robber-was-sentenced-to-13-years-in-prison-until-a-clerical-error-led-the-govt-to-forget-about-him/
Before someone says - "they were just doing their job" - wonder if any cop said "this is pretty ridiculous"
Some of my best friends are cops. I shoot regularly with the SWAT team and snipers (the snipers use the land I have access to practice on longer ranges).
Do you not gather intelligence on your criminals? Could you not catch them when out and about, follow them? Search the home when no one is there?
I remember listening to LAPD, back in the early '80s, tracking suspects. They used a Bell 47 up high, parallel units, a unit in front of the suspect, and two following that would rotate. The air unit would advise as to the condition of the upcomming traffic light so that the trailing units could either tighten up or fall back a bit. They would tail these guys all fricking day until they returned to the crib. Then nobody sat on them. By the time the LAPD returned with the warrant, the guys were gone. Always! (At least while I was listening.) What a waste of taxpayer money.
Pat
Pericles
04-17-2014, 12:25
That's my point strek, most sources are low hanging fruit. They are the same to bad guys too. That's what makes them good sources, however, good sources aren't born, they are made. They have to be developed. They have to be taught. They have to be tested and backed up with a second or third source. A source is enough to get a warrant, back that up with photos of sales with an estimate of how much they are supplying, get a wire and back it with what they are talking about and bam! You have a case. You use your CI to get places you can't go. This is so basic it hurts to have to write it.
That sounds too much like work.
Clerk realizes they screwed up - send a SWAT team take him in. If he was going to run - he had 13 years to do so. Why send "oakley"-booted SWAT cops to take him in? I'm surprised they didn't use the MRAP to ram his front door. I'm sure they were all roided up with big plans to put a notch on the buttstock.
Yes, whatever happened to the plain clothes officers that 'blend in' to an area bumping into someone coming out of a store, getting out of a car, or putting the garbage out. It also works with 'known' dangerous guys - use a blackjack instead of a bump.
It's cheaper and safer too.
The United States of SWAT? (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/376053/united-states-swat-john-fund)
And comments too...
TacOfficer
04-18-2014, 14:28
Yes, whatever happened to the plain clothes officers that 'blend in' to an area bumping into someone coming out of a store, getting out of a car, or putting the garbage out. It also works with 'known' dangerous guys - use a blackjack instead of a bump.
It's cheaper and safer too.
Who says we don't. ;)
There might be use of force issues with the blackjack, but we also have used other ploys for arrest. What criminals worry and cry the loudest about are search warrants ("Dats bogus bro!"). I believe that's one reason why there is such a proliferation of complaints and videos on the net.
The videos I see on the net are when SWAT conducts the entry. Most SWs don't involve SWAT. The ones that do especially appear dramatic when persons that are not the target are present. They are there either by circumstance or coincidence, and always good for a "Oh Lordy!"
To address the Secret Squirrel logo: The Secret Squirrel moniker was given by the old timers in uniform because we are in plain clothes and tend to keep our investigations confidential, below the radar. The young guys, we call "Hair Gels" probably haven't even see the cartoon.
I didn't know SF applied it to Delta. That's probably the only thing I have in common with them, maybe I use the same tooth paste. :)
The United States of SWAT? (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/376053/united-states-swat-john-fund)
And comments too...
Interesting read, our elected officials should have to read this. Over 50,000 raids per year, to include cock fighting, raw milk and college aid fraud. Does the US Dept. of Education or the US Fish and Wildlife Service really need a swat team?
Team Sergeant
04-18-2014, 14:42
A good example of over use of force. Guy commits armed robbery 13 yrs ago (with a BB gun). Clerical error doesn't put in him jail (they "forgot"). He gets married, gets a job, has 3 kids, does volunteer work, coaches a little league football team. No other arrests, run-ins the the law, (he did get two speeding tickets). He had a DL with his name & address, he paid his income taxes - basically a model citizen.
Clerk realizes they screwed up - send a SWAT team take him in. If he was going to run - he had 13 years to do so. Why send "oakley"-booted SWAT cops to take him in? I'm surprised they didn't use the MRAP to ram his front door. I'm sure they were all roided up with big plans to put a notch on the buttstock.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/04/17/armed-robber-was-sentenced-to-13-years-in-prison-until-a-clerical-error-led-the-govt-to-forget-about-him/
Before someone says - "they were just doing their job" - wonder if any cop said "this is pretty ridiculous"
Some of my best friends are cops. I shoot regularly with the SWAT team and snipers (the snipers use the land I have access to practice on longer ranges).
You mean like sending 23 heavily armed SEALS, a half a billion dollars in classified aircraft and $500,000,000 in man hours to kill one 50 year old guy and his two 50 year old bodyguards? I guess its all relative.....;)
Cops have tough jobs, I respect their service to society. I believe the vast majority are decent folk who care. I think we often become what we surround ourselves with. I believe it is very easy for police constantly exposed to the uglier aspects of society, to relate and interact only with other cops, then fall into us vs. them mindset, and get jaded and project this cynicism onto the law abiding citizens as well. A poor analogy might be the way a stripper or prostitute sees men.
From the law abiding citizens perspective the majority of experiences we have with police aren't positive either, it's at best a speeding ticket, or a very bad day. In addition especially in tough economic times we are all frustrated with the government, and police are often the city or state employees we interact with on a face to face basis. There is something broken in our society when it comes to violence, the gun's are just tools, I don't know why we have so many active shooter incidents.
I think a great deal of gun and general violence is the result of illegal drugs. Whether it was the tommy guns of Al Capone during prohibition or drug dealers with AK's now. I don't want to see officers trying to arrest them with .38 revolvers. At the same time some of the SWAT stuff and these incidents we hear about seem overkill and unnecessary.
Finally, I think the Grossman Wolf/Sheepdog analogy should be taken with a grain of salt. It's interesting but divisive, and can lead to contempt between the "sheepdogs" and the "sheep". Even if you like the analogy, contempt is when relationships end, and those who develop contempt for the "sheep" are one step closer to being "wolves". He is an eloquent businessman, he knows his audience. I haven't read of him ever being in combat himself, yet a ton of military and LE with combat /gunfight experience take him as gospel?
My $.02, the confluence of a lack of positive community interaction and this macho "sheepdog" culture contribute to instances of excessive force or unnecessary SWAT team deployments and all sorts of other jaded bad things for officers.
There might be use of force issues with the blackjack
Understand some places don't allow them any more. For those with violent histories it 'should' be appropriate.
Have to say my limited experience with Chicago PD was not bad...
Was riding an Amtrak with a big friend - guy actually caught me once (one foot) when I pushed off a cliff above him so he wouldn't fall with me, he saved me lots of pain - thanks Gary. Anyway, he got too drunk and got kicked off the train in Chicago and thought the Police were Firemen (rain coat color). He squared off with them but soon realized they weren't fireman. Long story short, he spent the night in jail and was let go without them beating the crap out of him.
...won't comment on the Mayor.
You mean like sending 23 heavily armed SEALS, a half a billion dollars in classified aircraft and $500,000,000 in man hours to kill one 50 year old guy and his two 50 year old bodyguards? I guess its all relative.....;)
Disagree - Bin Laden was a known quantity to the entire world that was a figure head of a multi million soldier/terrorist movement. Not a petty thief or a person who ran cock-fights. Intel said that he often had an outer circle security of 400+ men.
futureSOF
04-30-2014, 13:31
http://m.lancasteronline.com/news/local/supreme-court-pennsylvania-cops-no-longer-need-a-warrant-to/article_6a407fc6-d077-11e3-8025-0017a43b2370.html?mode=jqm
Not sure how I feel about this
Streck-Fu
04-30-2014, 13:40
“This does not mean that they may search every vehicle they stop,” Winters said. “They must still develop probable cause before they are permitted to search your vehicle without a warrant.”
In the Gary case, probable cause for the vehicle stop was window tint the officers believed to be illegal. Officers smelled marijuana and asked about it; Shiem then told an officer there was “weed” in the vehicle. A search ensued.
I don't think it is a good opinion to write. It will be used to justify officers fabricating 'probable cause' whenever they want to search a car. After all, there is no way verify what can or cannot be smelled on scene....
An interesting blog post about SWAT Teams that builds upon John Funds National Review article The United States of SWAT? (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/376053/united-states-swat-john-fund)
In effect, SWAT teams manufacture, through their presence and very tactics and procedures, the circumstances that allow them, under color of authority, to kill citizens, whose only crime is often trying to respond to an unimaginable attack on their home. This is particularly horrific when the police murder innocent people or people guilty of no more than violation of minor, non-violent crimes or even bureaucratic regulations. Of course, any citizen with the presence of mind to take up a firearm to protect themselves, their family and their home against armed intruders they often do not recognize as police officers could find themselves on the receiving end of a panicky and uncontrolled barrage of gunfire.
https://statelymcdanielmanor.wordpress.com/2014/05/06/swat-manufacturing-the-justification-to-kill/
JamesIkanov
05-08-2014, 18:31
Having only read the initial page of posts, I just wanted to say that I found it funny as I'd already read about NASA's swat team. And while I can understand WHY they need a SWAT team, I also remember a funny story about a little old lady with some sort of "illegal" space rock who was raided by that SWAT team and had it taken from her, when she claimed it was in fact a gift. If I can find it I'll cite it.
oohhh here we go:
http://www.boston.com/news/science/articles/2011/10/24/ap_exclusive_nasa_sting_terrifies_woman_74/?page=2
Streck-Fu
05-19-2014, 07:52
Semi-local story of Martinsville, IN getting equipment to include MRAP....LINK (http://fox59.com/2014/05/12/armed-for-war-local-police-tote-pentagon-surplus/#axzz31isc0kux)...with video report. Local news completely selling the "Keeping us safe..." angle. SWAT officer interviewed specifically mentions returning veterans with explosives and IED knowledge as risk that justifies having MRAP. Jump to 1:50 ....@ 2:20 states “At the end of the day, it gives the guys the ability to go home safely,” said Downing, “So, no matter what the price tag is on it, as long as they get to go home, that’s all that really matters.”... I hope the citizens of Morgan Co. are assured of their priority.
A lot of those weapons, uniforms, trucks and mine-resistant vehicles are patrolling the streets of central Indiana at virtually no cost to local law enforcement agencies.
“It saves a substantial amount of money,” said Steve Harless, deputy commissioner of the Indiana Department of Administration. “Last year alone we saved approximately $14 million and this year we’re on pace to save a little over $13 million.”
That’s millions of tax dollars saved by 326 Indiana sheriffs and police chiefs who otherwise could not afford the gear they say they need to protect the public from increasingly heavily armored criminals.
“When I first started we really didn’t have the violence that we see today,” said Sgt. Dan Downing of the Morgan County Sheriff’s Department. “The weaponry is totally different now that it was in the beginning of my career, plus, you have a lot of people who are coming out of the military that have the ability and knowledge to build IEDs and to defeat law enforcement techniques.”
As he spoke, Downing was perched in the driver’s seat of a $650,000 Mine Resistant Vehicle (MRAP) that once protected soldiers in Afghanistan from mines, rocket-propelled grenades and .50-caliber weapons.
The Morgan County SWAT Team acquired the armored vehicle for essentially the cost of gas and the time of two deputies to drive to Mississippi and pick it up and bring it back home to Martinsville.
“We were actually approached when we’d stop to get fuel by people wanting to know why we needed this…what were we going to use it for? ‘Are you coming to take our guns away?’” said Downing. “To come and take away their firearms…that absolutely is not the reason why we go this vehicle. We got this vehicle because of the need and because of increased violence that we have been facing over the last few years.
The school shooting was one teen boy shooting another teen boy outside the school door and then running away. LINK (http://abcnews.go.com/US/indiana-school-shooting-shooter-arrested-martinsville-west-middle/story?id=13219580) ....I don't think the MRAP would have helped.
Despite the claims, Martinsville is a very small town with no real violence issues.
I could see Indianapolis SWAT having one because there are lot more issues with shootings downtown but they have not seen the need to pursue one. Personally, I think Martinsville took this as an ego booster.
Well guys, I thought that it never happen to my county and my old department, but it did.
Just last week they picked up their new Urban Assault Vehicle. No it doesn't look like the one in "Stripes" either. They are now proud owners of an MRAP.
It gets, according to them 2-3 MPG. My first response, after all of the YOUUUHHOOOssss, was this: "Last time I checked, there weren't any landmine problems around. The response I got back was: "Yet, is the operative word."
Here is our facebook page and on it you can see the old SWAT vehicle:
www.facebook.com/pages/Summit-County-Sheriffs-Office/240107089380317
... and the hits just keep on coming.
Although this incident happened almost two years ago, and the S.O. DID admit blame, it just goes to show why the public is becoming less and less trusting of LEOs.
SWAT team ambushes innnocent man as he works on tractor in his driveway
COUNCIL BLUFFS, IA — A man says that while he was working on his tractor in his driveway, a van pulled up and a dozen men with rifles piled out and assaulted him. As they bashed his head in, breaking bones in his face, he believed they were there to kill him. It was later determined that police had attacked a completely innocent man due to a false police report, drawing questions about why police acted so brutally against a man who did not resist and made no threats.
The violence befell upon John Hytrek one day in August 2012 while he was working on a tractor at his shop. Without warning, Mr. Hytrek heard a van screeching up to his shop. When he looked up, roughly 12 men were sprinting towards him with their rifles drawn.
“They ran for me with machine guns,” recalled Mr. Hytrek to KMTV. “And I looked at them, and I’m like, what!?”
Hytrek was completely blindsided and had no idea what was going on. The trespassers tackled him to the ground, driving his face into a piece of steel equipment. Hytrek then says he was struck in the head multiple times.
“Five times,” said Hytrek to the local news station. “I think it was boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.” He demonstrated the blows coming from multiple directions.
He was struck so hard that assailants actually shattered the lenses in his glasses.
“I was minding my own business, you know, and they came in for the kill,” Hytrek said.
It was evident at this point that the violent group was employed by the government. These well-armed, highly aggressive men were deputies from the Pottawattamie County Sheriff’s Office.
Hytrek says he did nothing to resist. That did not stop him from becoming a bloody, mangled mess.
“They repeatedly were swinging to kill me, they repeatedly didn’t let up, I did not resist them, nothing,” Hytrek explained. “They could’ve came up to me and asked me what was going on, and they didn’t.”
Hytrek says that a police sniper was perched in the distance during the ambush.
The deputies shackled him and took him to jail. He was charged with assault and harassment; serious charges against a man who had done nothing wrong.
Innocent Misunderstanding?
Hytrek, 52, suffers from Parkinson’s Disease and was badly injured by the assault; so much so that he had to be hospitalized at least twice. He suffered a broken orbital bone in his face, a concussion, and multiple abrasions and bruises.
Police tried to justify their use of force against Hytrek because he was working with a hammer when they ambushed him. But even a deputy’s deposition stated that Hytrek never attempted to use it as a weapon, KMTV reported.
“They could’ve came up to me and asked me what was going on, and they didn’t.”
It took 3 months for the government to finally drop the bogus charges against Mr. Hytrek. A cell phone video allegedly backed up Hytrek’s account that he did not resist.
In fact, it was finally admitted that he did absolutely nothing wrong. He had been the victim of “swatting” — a nefarious tactic in which a person generates a false police report in hopes that the government will go after someone else. And in Police State USA, the government responses can be quite brutal.
It turned out that one of Hytrek’s relatives had retaliated against him for previously requesting that person leave his property. That person, who had previously made false police reports, told police that Hytrek had made “terroristic threats,” according to KMTV.
Hytrek is now filing a federal civil rights lawsuit against the brutal Pottawattamie County Sheriff’s Office.
It does not bode well when the government can’t perform a simple investigation without beating people up before they have acquired any facts whatsoever.
http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/john-hytrek/
The Reaper
05-30-2014, 09:31
Playing flash bang the baby. Damn.
http://atlanta.cbslocal.com/2014/05/30/toddler-critically-injured-during-police-raid/
Toddler Critically Injured During Police Raid
May 30, 2014 8:22 AM
(WAOK) Atlanta – A 19-month-old toddler was critically injured after a police flash bang was tossed into his bed during a police raid at a Habersham County home on Wednesday.
“It’s my baby. He’s my only baby. He didn’t deserve any of this,” said Alecia Phonesavanh, the mother of the child.
(Cont. at link)
Why don't they just pull these people over with a patrol unit next time they leave the house?
Just because we have a Tac Team, we need to employ them?
TR
Javadrinker
05-30-2014, 19:18
police state of America
Playing flash bang the baby. Damn.
http://atlanta.cbslocal.com/2014/05/30/toddler-critically-injured-during-police-raid/
Toddler Critically Injured During Police Raid
May 30, 2014 8:22 AM
(WAOK) Atlanta – A 19-month-old toddler was critically injured after a police flash bang was tossed into his bed during a police raid at a Habersham County home on Wednesday.
“It’s my baby. He’s my only baby. He didn’t deserve any of this,” said Alecia Phonesavanh, the mother of the child.
(Cont. at link)
Why don't they just pull these people over with a patrol unit next time they leave the house?
Just because we have a Tac Team, we need to employ them?
TR
I was getting ready to post this one and saw yours.
THIS SHOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED! This exactly how LAPD killed an infant years ago. Landed in the crib. Procedures were changed because of this. Evidently, nobody had any clue to these changes in procedure and the team lacked in common sense, period. Somebody is going to be America's next millionaire guaranteed.
Its neat that the family will be able to sue the Atlanta taxpayers while these halfassed cops walk with no repercussions whatsoever.
jackassess
The Reaper
05-31-2014, 12:19
No matter how much money the family gets the kid may be messed up from life from the burns. Hopefully not but no amount of money is worth a lifetime of being screwed up.
And the guy who did it to him might receive a reprimand and possibly some retraining.
The people who signed off on this raid should be fired as well.
TR
atticus finch
06-01-2014, 08:26
Its neat that the family will be able to sue the Atlanta taxpayers while these halfassed cops walk with no repercussions whatsoever.
jackassess
It is pathetic, these lawsuits do nothing to solve the problem or provide a deterrent.
Streck-Fu
06-02-2014, 12:10
Lee County, Florida (Ft. Myers and Cape Coral) where I grew up....
"We basically run this unit like special operations, Special Forces....."
Be sure to notice the handgun handling at 1:25....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3NTqX9qJAc
Team Sergeant
06-02-2014, 12:16
Lee County, Florida (Ft. Myers and Cape Coral) where I grew up....
"We basically run this unit like special operation, Special Forces....."
Be sure to notice the handgun handling at 1:25....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3NTqX9qJAc
LOL, yup, I see the grenades, nods, tactical night time strike, AC-130 coverage, satellite comms, etc. etc. etc.....
Just like Special Forces and I'm sure they are willing to die for their "hostages", just like Special Forces soldiers......
Lee County, Florida (Ft. Myers and Cape Coral) where I grew up....
"We basically run this unit like special operation, Special Forces....."
Be sure to notice the handgun handling at 1:25....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3NTqX9qJAc
Isn't that the Coast Guard's area or responsibility ¿
Pat
DIYPatriot
06-02-2014, 12:40
Isn't that the Coast Guard's area or responsibility ¿
I'm surprised the BLM hasn't requested and received funding for a waterborne team.
.........Just like Special Forces and I'm sure they are willing to die for their "hostages", just like Special Forces soldiers......
That is out of the question - then they wouldn't go home safe that night.
miclo18d
06-02-2014, 19:06
Nice machine guns on those boats and was that a "scout scroll" on the Cpl's bicycle helmet?
Wait until they get a hot tip about a guy smoking pot on a fishing charter.
Unleash hell. :p
TOMAHAWK9521
06-28-2014, 22:42
I'm no fan of the ACLU but this article is a little troubling. Any LEO's out there that can shed light on this, or this complete BS?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/06/26/massachusetts-swat-teams-claim-theyre-private-corporations-immune-from-open-records-laws/
FlagDayNCO
06-30-2014, 09:00
Over in PA, we have numerous Regioinal Police agencies, configured as a cost savings. There are also Regional SWAT type units. One that comes to mind is The Central Montgomery County Special Weapons and Tactics (CMSWAT).
http://www.westnorritontwp.org/index.aspx?NID=168
I worked with a guy from this unit, when it was named differently, and I knew the funding came from various sources. There were also private/ civilian donations, due to the Corporate client base in the region. The nuclear plant had some donations, as well.
From an LEO stand point, the chain of command went through the SWAT organization, when called into formation/ duty.
The only thing I can think of as a "corporation" basis, is along the lines of Volunterr Fire Companies. I know many of the VFCs do fund raising, but a large portion comes form the municipalities they service. This opens up the entire Municipal/ County/ State/ Federal funding and grant game.
I always love to see the VFC Chief driving his vehicle hundreds of miles on personal shopping trips with his wife. Yeah, so he can be ready to respond. Sure.
Massachusettes is a Commonwealth, like Pennsylvania, so maybe there is different laws/ rulings as to the formation of the LE Agencies.
The National Tactical Officers Association has a web site and they are VERY active.
http://ntoa.org/site/
Something similair in NY and NJ is the Port Authority of NY/NJ. They are a Corporation, though they have a huge police presence. Their LEOs are certified in NY and NJ. Trying to get information from them is nearly impossible.
So.......would this be the correct thread for this? :D
Peregrino
07-26-2014, 11:25
So.......would this be the correct thread for this? :D
HA! I knew it. We're not the only ones plagued with "Airsofters"!
At least we were spared a "commando" airsofter experience. :p