PDA

View Full Version : Homebrew AR15


SF18C
07-12-2013, 18:19
I am thinking of "building" my next AR.

US-M4 Lower ($400)
http://usautoweapons.com/usm4/catalog_detail.php?product_id=83025

Sine Pari Series M4 Upper Receiver Group 1 (URG1) 16" ($1700)
https://www.teludynetech.com/products/

EoTech HHII optics ($1000)
http://www.eotech-inc.com/products/sights/hhs2

Odds-n-Ends from Magpul ($500 ish)
http://store.magpul.com/
BUS, Sling attach point, mags, bipod, etc, etc.

Hmmm might cost more than my old truck! Might need to see if I can get an SF discount!


Any thoughts?

The_Mentalist
07-12-2013, 20:52
Everything looks great. Should be a fine rifle.

I run the XPS 2-2 on mine and it is a great sight. Just don't put too much reliance on the BDC dot. It is generalized and different rifles will have a different POI based on barrel length and ammo used. The 2-0 is actually a better reticle with the 65 MOA circle and the center 1 MOA dot. No BDC dot on it. Just IMHO. And, if you plan on using night vision, you have to go with a 3 series. They also have the zombie reticle, but it is too cluttered for real world use.

The Reaper
07-12-2013, 21:01
I like a good solid lower, like the LMT or BPM, and a Bravo Company or BPM upper.

Not very familiar with the makers you listed. I'd say the lower is overpriced by at least $100 and the upper smells like snake oil to me. A good upper from Bravo Company or Colt would run you less than half that price.

Agree with the optics and the MAGPUL accessories. If you want a bit more range, I like the ACOG TA31 or the Leupold 1.5-5x Tactical. Troy BUIS and Larue mounts.

Hey, that's why Baskin Robins has 31 flavors. Just my .02.

Enjoy your toy.

TR

SF18C
07-12-2013, 21:24
Well the choices at this point were more dues to the "SF'y-ness" then price, capability, or common sense!

The guys that make the uppers are SF dudes (or so I hear) and the lowers (while cost more than most) are reported to give funds to SF charities.

I am still researching but I think I want to build a nice range gun for "amateur competition" shooting.

I have a Colt Sporter with an EOOTech, it is very durable and very accurate but that is my "go to war" gun. We also have a DPMS Lite which was/is the cheap entry level AR. Nothing bad to say about it but nothing sexy either.

Peregrino
07-12-2013, 21:51
Hmmmm. I'm with TR on this one. (No real surprise there! :p) As he says - "that's why BR has 31 flavors". FWIW - We did look at the barrel you're considering at SHOT two years ago. The manufacturer made some interesting claims; most of which seemed to defy the laws of physics as I understand them (primarily heat transfer characteristics). He/they also made some very interesting claims WRT accuracy. MOO - Expensive and not discernibly better than any of the toys I've already got. I couldn't see the ROI. YMMV.

TacOfficer
07-12-2013, 21:52
Not questioning the validity of your choice of optics, but could you explain it to me? I have an eotech 512 on my work rifle, and I understand TR's choice of the Trijicon, but the HHII seems like it's trying to do two things at once. That appears to be a compromise at a very high price point.

Peregrino
07-12-2013, 22:07
Optics on my next project will probably be something along the line of http://www.laruetactical.com/riflescopebushnell-elite-tactical-riflescope-smrs-1-65x24mm-mount. This concept is available at every price point from Nikon M-223s through S&B SD. The guys I go to for the latest trends are all looking this way themselves - though the Army is footing the bill at the Leupold Mk 6/Mk 8 and S&B SD level. I've got Aimpoints, EoTechs, and ACOGs and they all have their issues.

SF18C
07-12-2013, 22:09
Not questioning the validity of your choice of optics, but could you explain it to me? I have an eotech 512 on my work rifle, and I understand TR's choice of the Trijicon, but the HHII seems like it's trying to do two things at once. That appears to be a compromise at a very high price point.

I can't put my finger on it but when I see ARs with "full fledged" scope it just "looks" wrong to me. Stupid I know!


Rick Porter with a Teludyne Tech AR-15 Teludyne also builds rifles/barrels for US Olympic shooters. Anyone ever work with Alan Adolphsen?

TacOfficer
07-12-2013, 22:20
For me, it's the flipping the magnifier to the side that concerns me. The variable power of the short dots I agree with.

SF18C
07-12-2013, 22:25
Optics on my next project will probably be something along the line of http://www.laruetactical.com/riflescopebushnell-elite-tactical-riflescope-smrs-1-65x24mm-mount. This concept is available at every price point from Nikon M-223s through S&B SD. The guys I go to for the latest trends are all looking this way themselves - though the Army is footing the bill at the Leupold Mk 6/Mk 8 and S&B SD level. I've got Aimpoints, EoTechs, and ACOGs and they all have their issues.

I almost forgot about Larue! I need to look thru their site...they are from Texas!

I wonder if Maj "Lash" could get me a brotherhood discount!:D

The_Mentalist
07-13-2013, 00:39
Another upper option that I have used and really like is "American Spirit Arms" . Mine is extremely accurate. The most accurate AR I have had. Prices are very reasonable and finish is top notch. You could always go with Black Hole Weaponry parts as well. Great products.

Unfortunately there are way too many options available. For accessories, MAGPUL is my go to company. But Troy has some excellent rails and some of the best BUIS available. Heck, I am still trying to figure out what I want to do with the BHW lower I have had in hand for over a year now.

Surgicalcric
07-13-2013, 07:27
...Rick Porter with a Teludyne Tech AR-15 Teludyne also builds rifles/barrels for US Olympic shooters. Anyone ever work with Alan Adolphsen?

Teludyne-Tech Inc is only a few miles from my home, is managed by a former 1/75th Ranger and plank holder in North American Rescue Products (company who brought us the CAT TQ) Rob Miller and hires primarily vets. A couple months ago while home on Con Leave I finished the machining on a couple of my 80% lowers using the vertical mill in Teludyne Tech's shop - pics can be found on ps.com.

I know Alan personally and find him to be as honest a guy as I have ever known, present company included. His mind works in ways that baffle me and I consider myself well versed in the ballistics. I have spent hours in the shop discussing the Straight Jacket's "technology" and while I do not understand all of it I have witnessed bolt guns shooting 3moa when they arrive leave the shop as 1 moa guns. I have watched him test fire Sine Paris that shoot .5 moa groups with chamber temps that don't rise above 98* no matter how fast the trigger is depressed.

I plan on buying a Sine Pari in a couple months when I am done with a couple other projects I am working on...

If you have any other questions please ask - I will answer what I can.

SF18C
07-13-2013, 08:24
Teludyne-Tech Inc is only a few miles from my home, is managed by a former 1/75th Ranger and plank holder in North American Rescue Products (company who brought us the CAT TQ) Rob Miller and hires primarily vets. A couple months ago while home on Con Leave I finished the machining on a couple of my 80% lowers using the vertical mill in Teludyne Tech's shop - pics can be found on ps.com.

I know Alan personally and find him to be as honest a guy as I have ever known, present company included. His mind works in ways that baffle me and I consider myself well versed in the ballistics. I have spent hours in the shop discussing the Straight Jacket's "technology" and while I do not understand all of it I have witnessed bolt guns shooting 3moa when they arrive leave the shop as 1 moa guns. I have watched him test fire Sine Paris that shoot .5 moa groups with chamber temps that don't rise above 98* no matter how fast the trigger is depressed.

I plan on buying a Sine Pari in a couple months when I am done with a couple other projects I am working on...

If you have any other questions please ask - I will answer what I can.

Shit, if Cric vouches for 'em, then this all the info I need on the upper!:D

So the owner if from the Ranger Rgt...I heard they had a few former SF guys working there too, maybe they meant you, Surgicalcric

Surgicalcric
07-13-2013, 09:26
Shit, if Cric vouches for 'em, then this all the info I need on the upper!:D

So the owner if from the Ranger Rgt...I heard they had a few former SF guys working there too, maybe they meant you, Surgicalcric

I am not currently on the payroll nor do I receive any compensation from them. I hang out in the office and shop when I am home because its a great place to fellowship with like minded guys and tinker with guns.

Rob is good people, honest, and stands by their products whether it be a Sine Pari or retrofitting a SJ to an existing platform.

If you include me there area couple SF guys in the office, a Ranger, and a couple other various service members.

Crip

frostfire
07-15-2013, 13:40
[QUOTE=Peregrino;515137] This concept is available at every price point from Nikon M-223s through S&B SD. The guys I go to for the latest trends are all looking this way themselves [QUOTE/]

The only thing I missed about the red dot ala EOtech is the parallax free feature. No prob hitting target even with poor body mechanics. The 1-4x, 1.6-6x etc concept is super neat with 10m to 500m plinking but the scope design necessitates a solid cheekweld for accurate placement. I run one myself and redneck-engineer a magnifier lever using some zip-ties and duct tape. Works like a charm on the HDMR too. OTOH, for a sub-MOA upper like the sine pari, it should be able to reap full benefit of the variable low-power scope design.

Good luck trying military discount from LaRue now. Unless you're part of "special group" ie. Rick's ol buddies, they already put a disclaimer on their facebook page putting an end to all discount starting this year.

I am glad Surgicalcric vouch for Teludyne. I had my AK74 straightjacketed by them with some pics somewhere on ps.com They worked on it until I was happy. While it's not sub-MOA as initially bragged, the vast improvement in accuracy and handling temperature is undeniable. I've been in their shop and other than the proprietary material used inside the barrel sleeve, they showed me every step of the process. I thought heresy when I saw a straight-jacketed a Sako TRG 42, and they even offered straight-jacketing my Larue OBR. IMHO, the folks there are legit and true believer to their borderline-too-good-to-be-true technology. I've reviewed the whitesands test report when it first came out and the numbers don't lie.

One caveat though, there's no free lunch. You pay for all those improvement in one variable, weight! I personally recommend going to the shop yourself, handle the Sine Pari, then decide, all things considered, if it's still to your liking.
Also make sure to locktite the muzzle brake. Mine and one other guys tend to come off after repeated shots.

frostfire
07-15-2013, 15:53
Hmmm might cost more than my old truck!

SF18C, with that budget, might as well go for the MR556 upper :D I was talking with SOF exchange students from Germany, Singapore, and Estonia few days ago and they all love their 416. The manual even says not to clean it. Likewise, the ***/**** personnel I exchange thoughts with highly recommend the platform. If it ever breaks, good luck with the customer service though lol

or consider this
http://www.laruetactical.com/larue-tactical-stealth-sniper-system-lt011
air177 here has one and should be able to provide you range report
or you if you look hard enough, sometimes there are OBR 5.56 upper for sale on gunbroker

or this solid newcomer
http://www.usamade-ar15parts.com/category-s/34.htm
http://www.usamade-ar15parts.com/product-p/tmc.htm
I have personal experience with the ultralite platform and with the gas tuned, it's the softest, smoothest AR you'll ever shoot. 200m headshot with M855 all day long. If you google for groupings, it's legit. Mr Barnes is a solid guy who stands behind his product, employ SF vets, and he does offer mil/SOF discount.

Also, with choices for excellent upper, please don't skim with the lower. I believe in investing in good trigger to fully bring the full accuracy potential of the upper.

In my next build I'm focusing on barrel, free-float rail, gas-bufferspring or piston, action, solid fitting/staking, and trigger for overall reliability/accuracy package. Everything else is gravy.

FlagDayNCO
07-18-2013, 09:27
Following the advice a writer put forth several years ago, I have built several M4 clones, so that my boys will have something available. You never know when Our Dear Leader will pull the rug our from under us.

I used Palmettos State Armory stripped lower receiver, with mostly Bravo Company URGs. One I built with Noveske components for a super barrel. The PSA lowers were manufactured by LW or FNH.

A friend worked at Picatinny Arsenal and shared some insight into some of the manufacturers. He told me that Colt is not what it used to be, and there were many no-go scenarios when they went up to do spot inspections on the manufacturing facilities.

The BCM components are outstanding and the important thing for me is they usually have their products in stock. Something I considered with BCM complete uppers is they are properly configured, with correct headspacing. No concerns something will fail... or blow up.

Though many companies have come forward and started producing AR parts and even complete rifles, there have been more than a few with parts not within the specifications of the data pack. I have stuck with traditional M4 parts, as going with a company manufacturing unique shapes and gizmos becomes a support/ supply problem when the next gun grab shows its face.

I will have to check out the Sine Pari Series M4 Upper Receiver Group, though I wonder about the muzzle device coming loose. I would like to support a Veteran that went into business, especially one making Freedom Tools!

Something to consider is order up one of the LaRue rifles, as the back log is pretty lengthy. You can always cancel it if you select another manufacturer.

Streck-Fu
07-18-2013, 09:59
When I looked at that URG in the OP, it reminded me of this one from BCM: LINK (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-M4-Upper-Receiver-MI-p/bcm-urg-m4-16%20mit10%20blk.htm)

Also, Daniel Defense offers a military discount: LINK (https://danieldefense.com/upper-receiver-groups/daniel-defense-m4-urg-v5-no-sights.html)

Buckles
07-18-2013, 16:25
So first off I will state that I currently work for SIG SAUER, so I will not put forward what I think you should get. I will say that the rifles that the others suggested are all good rifles from good companies.

That being said i will tell you that i did have a straight jacket job done to my AR back in 2011. First I did not have a reduction of weight on the gun. The gun was shooting 1 MOA to begin with, when I got it back it was still able to shoot 1 MOA, maybe better, I am not quite good enough to shoot better than 1 MOA. Now it did rapidly reduce the barrel tempature, however it made my barrel more sensative to heat as well.
I was shooitng 20 round shot groups and my shot groups open 2 to 3 times the size by the time i started the 3rd magazine, and started to have rounds impact outside the 6 inch target i was using. I step away from the gun for less than 5 minutes and fired the forth mag and the shot grops size reduced back to less than half of the previous shot group.

Now i dont know if he has improved the process or not since then, so I cannot speak to what is currently coming out of his shop, I will say the technology would improve the accuracy on a bolt gun but I am not sure on a gas gun. I did take a look at the outside lab report Telydyne has on their website and if you read it the data for it was collected on a remington 700 not an ar platform.

So that is my $0.2 base off my experience with the system about three years ago.

Surgicalcric
07-18-2013, 22:59
...I was shooitng 20 round shot groups and my shot groups open 2 to 3 times the size by the time i started the 3rd magazine, and started to have rounds impact outside the 6 inch target i was using. I step away from the gun for less than 5 minutes and fired the forth mag and the shot grops size reduced back to less than half of the previous shot group.

Now i dont know if he has improved the process or not since then, so I cannot speak to what is currently coming out of his shop, I will say the technology would improve the accuracy on a bolt gun but I am not sure on a gas gun. I did take a look at the outside lab report Telydyne has on their website and if you read it the data for it was collected on a remington 700 not an ar platform.

So that is my $0.2 base off my experience with the system about three years ago.

Did you call the shop or email Alan or Rob about the issues?

About a year ago the previous CEO was fired and the place is under new leadership. A few of the lingering issues with QC was taken care of in the change.

As a matter of fact, C/3/7 currently has a couple of the 12" Sine Pari URGs and the initial reports are that the SP's are blowing the Daniel Defense 10" URGs out of the water across the board. Rob is still waiting on the official report.

Chris Costa (for those who care what he has to say) has one of the 12" as well.

miclo18d
07-19-2013, 11:07
Teludyne-Tech Inc is only a few miles from my home, is managed by a former 1/75th Ranger and plank holder in North American Rescue Products (company who brought us the CAT TQ) Rob Millerand hires primarily vets.

Does he pronounce his name -- "Millah"?

Buckles
07-20-2013, 07:57
I did have a couple of follow on conversation with someone from their shop, although I don't remember who, and I think that was before I got into seriously into testing the system. I don't think that I discussed this with them and I chalked up to overcoming the capability of the technology.

I think that the technology was still a little new when I had it done, and may not have been ready for the AR platforms. I haven't any recent experience with their stuff which is why I can't speak as to what is coming out of their shop now. I do see the benefit to the system on a bolt gun and have thought getting done to one. I would like to see someone's test data on a current AR platforms to see what they do, I always like to see the new technology for firearms, and like to see vets doing well.

The gun I had it on has been my evolving frankenbuild precision AR for the last few years, I have been making improvements to as I find something I want to try. I just recently put an Shilen barrel on it and I putting a Samson Evo rail as well. I kind of use it as a test bed for other guns infant to build.

Surgicalcric
07-20-2013, 11:42
Does he pronounce his name -- "Millah"?

Yep... The One and Only...

MRF-1
07-21-2013, 09:01
I am thinking of "building" my next AR.

US-M4 Lower ($400)
http://usautoweapons.com/usm4/catalog_detail.php?product_id=83025

Sine Pari Series M4 Upper Receiver Group 1 (URG1) 16" ($1700)
https://www.teludynetech.com/products/

EoTech HHII optics ($1000)
http://www.eotech-inc.com/products/sights/hhs2

Odds-n-Ends from Magpul ($500 ish)
http://store.magpul.com/
BUS, Sling attach point, mags, bipod, etc, etc.

Hmmm might cost more than my old truck! Might need to see if I can get an SF discount!


Any thoughts?


Very Nice............but, my arms room has 4 of the same weapon's system (.22 Pistols & Rifles, 9mm Pistols & Rifles, .45 Pistols & Rifles, 12 gauge Pump & Semi) I look for quantity verses quality wtshtf ..... (Think Repair parts & community)

Well, anyways, you planted that seed, time to go look at "Gun Porn".:cool:

DJ Urbanovsky
07-21-2013, 12:16
For what you're spending on that Eotech combo, you could have yourself a variable power optic. Lighter weight, lower profile, less moving parts.

SF18C
07-21-2013, 12:18
Thanks for all the feedback...lots of good info!


Quick update....I just bought a Jeep and not a cheap one either!

Still plan to build my AR, just going to do a little more research, I don't think my plan will change much (other than the optics). Still liking what I hear about that Straightjacket Upper and kinda just want the USM4 lower because of the SFA crest! probably look at swapping out the trigger guts.



FWIW...2013 Jeep Wrangler MOAB edition....note the cool ass SF crest on the hitch. I have had that thing for years and nothing to put it on!

CW3SF
07-22-2013, 12:16
Just a piggyback question on your thread, if i may?

I would like to put together an AR15 also, using the USM4 lower (for the crest and support of SF Assoc). I just want a reliable gun. I am not concerned as much with precision long range accuracy.

What is the most cost effective prebuilt upper (no sights, optics or carry handle-just upper with barrel, charging handle, bolt carrier group and rails)?

DJ Urbanovsky
07-22-2013, 12:50
I've been very happy with my PSA upper. Runs like a scorched ape. Eats everything I've fed it so far, even dirty Wolf. Quite accurate. 5.56, chrome lined, 1x7, etc. Everything you want in a business gun. Think I paid less than $500 for mine including b/bc/ch. Palmetto did send my upper with the wrong color hand guard, which they happily rectified by sending me an appropriate replacement. And there was an issue with the fit of the hand guard. Sucker was really wedged on there. Was either an out of spec hand guard cap, Magpul's production run for that batch of hand guards was slightly off spec, or the FSB was mounted a bit too far to the rear. They offered to take the whole upper back, but I'm a handy guy and had it squared away in less than 30 minutes.

Depending on what you want to hang off your rifle, you may not necessarily need rails. There are kits out there that you can use to mount things to a Magpul hand guard.




Just a piggyback question on your thread, if i may?

I would like to put together an AR15 also, using the USM4 lower (for the crest and support of SF Assoc). I just want a reliable gun. I am not concerned as much with precision long range accuracy.

What is the most cost effective prebuilt upper (no sights, optics or carry handle-just upper with barrel, charging handle, bolt carrier group and rails)?

Peregrino
07-22-2013, 19:17
Just a piggyback question on your thread, if i may?

I would like to put together an AR15 also, using the USM4 lower (for the crest and support of SF Assoc). I just want a reliable gun. I am not concerned as much with precision long range accuracy.

What is the most cost effective prebuilt upper (no sights, optics or carry handle-just upper with barrel, charging handle, bolt carrier group and rails)?

Check out http://www.del-ton.com/Custom_Upper_p/cu104.htm You can make a series of choices to upgrade based on requirements vs. budget and get a quality upper for a decent price. Customer service in my experience has been exemplary.

DJ Urbanovsky
07-22-2013, 21:39
I've had good experiences with them as well.


Check out http://www.del-ton.com/Custom_Upper_p/cu104.htm You can make a series of choices to upgrade based on requirements vs. budget and get a quality upper for a decent price. Customer service in my experience has been exemplary.

CW3SF
07-23-2013, 04:12
I've been very happy with my PSA upper. Runs like a scorched ape. Eats everything I've fed it so far, even dirty Wolf. Quite accurate. 5.56, chrome lined, 1x7, etc. Everything you want in a business gun. Think I paid less than $500 for mine including b/bc/ch. Palmetto did send my upper with the wrong color hand guard, which they happily rectified by sending me an appropriate replacement. And there was an issue with the fit of the hand guard. Sucker was really wedged on there. Was either an out of spec hand guard cap, Magpul's production run for that batch of hand guards was slightly off spec, or the FSB was mounted a bit too far to the rear. They offered to take the whole upper back, but I'm a handy guy and had it squared away in less than 30 minutes.

Depending on what you want to hang off your rifle, you may not necessarily need rails. There are kits out there that you can use to mount things to a Magpul hand guard.

Check out http://www.del-ton.com/Custom_Upper_p/cu104.htm You can make a series of choices to upgrade based on requirements vs. budget and get a quality upper for a decent price. Customer service in my experience has been exemplary.

Thanks. I'll check them both out.

miclo18d
07-25-2013, 07:39
Yep... The One and Only...
Yarp...:D:D:D

I remember him from Ranger Batt. After I left he became the Regimental Medical Sgt and set up some Ranger medic course that involved a simulated battlefield experience. I heard from friends that it was really awesome. It was around the time TCCC was gaining lots of momentum.