View Full Version : NSA reportedly collecting phone records of millions, though officials had denied hold
Team Sergeant
06-06-2013, 10:43
and janet napolitano is afraid that some domestic "lone wolf" is going to go rouge and start killing people...... just can't figure how she came up with that idea......:munchin
NSA reportedly collecting phone records of millions, though officials had denied holding 'data' on Americans
Published June 06, 2013
FoxNews.com
Reports that the Obama administration has been collecting the phone records of millions of Verizon customers in the U.S. could contradict statements made by top officials who previously claimed the government was not holding data on Americans.
Director of National Intelligence James Clapper was asked at a March hearing whether the National Security Agency collects any data on millions of Americans.
"No sir ... not wittingly," Clapper responded, acknowledging there are cases "where inadvertently, perhaps" the data could be collected.
NSA Director Gen. Keith Alexander also told Fox News last year that the agency does not "hold data on U.S. citizens."
But the Guardian newspaper reported late Wednesday that the administration has been collecting the phone records of millions of U.S. customers of Verizon under a top secret court order.
The order, a copy of which apparently was obtained by The Guardian, reportedly was granted by the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court on April 25 and is good until July 19.
It requires Verizon, one of the nation's largest telecommunications companies, on an "ongoing, daily basis" to give the NSA information on all telephone calls in its systems, both within the U.S. and between the U.S. and other countries.
The text of the order, as published by The Guardian, says that "the Custodian of Records shall produce to the National Security Agency (NSA) upon service of this Order, and continue production on an ongoing daily basis thereafter for the duration of this Order, unless otherwise ordered by the Court, an electronic copy of the" the records in question.
Administration officials, while not directly acknowledging the order, defended their authority to collect records and stressed they're not listening in on conversations.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/06/06/nsa-collecting-phone-records-for-millions-verizon-customers-report-says/#ixzz2VSHC7oj4
Badger52
06-06-2013, 11:36
CNN related story (http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/06/politics/nsa-verizon-records/index.html)
"As far as I know, this is the exact three-month renewal of what has been the case for the past seven years," said Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-California. "This renewal is carried out by the FISA court under the business records section of the Patriot Act. Therefore it is lawful. It has been briefed to Congress."
Rep. Mike Rogers, chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, said the program was used in the last few years to stop a terrorist attack in the United States. He gave no details on the attack, but said the program operates under rigorous judicial and congressional oversight.
The level of mistrust of the Central Government at this point is going to take this, I hope, to a new level, with a review of the Patriot Act and what has become di riguer for the people's representatives to tolerate. I submit this is NOT oversight and ask what else could be deemed lawful and, therefore, "ok."
The nature of the data collection is such that there is no way it is limited to Americans who are only Verizon subscribers.
It is time to clean out the lint trap & take out the trash.
The top secret Verizon court order was leaked.
How much do you wanna bet there are court orders for ATT, T-Mobil, etc, etc that are in place just not yet leaked?
Team Sergeant
06-06-2013, 11:43
I heard that they are "not" targeting CAIR phones users or obamaphones users.....;)
NSA has your phone records - IRS has your financial records and soon to have your health records - eventually - you will be swabbed during the audit for your DNA.
And those RINO guys aint helping...
“I have no problem. I am a Verizon customer. You can have my phone number, and put it in a database" If they get a hit between me and some guy from Waziristan,” officials should investigate
Senator Lindsey Graham
perdurabo
06-06-2013, 12:23
The top secret Verizon court order was leaked.
How much do you wanna bet there are court orders for ATT, T-Mobil, etc, etc that are in place just not yet leaked?
That AT&T is doing (virtually) the same thing was leaked 7 years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Klein
Sprint, too.
Although, I'd wager that T-Mobile isn't doing the same thing, or at least the same extent of operations as the big two carriers, as T-Mobile is a holding of a foreign telecom. Prepaid T-Mobile is a favorite of drug dealers conducting domestic ops, though so who really knows?
Badger52
06-06-2013, 12:35
Much is being made by those defending it - including those who are supposed to be engaged in oversight on behalf of the people - in terms of rationalizing, that the content is not at risk; no one's listening to phone calls. That's beside the point in my mind and is a deflector to the argument only.
They have no business, imo, in even knowing who I talk to unless they can prove a reasonable case that I'm engaged in prohibited activity, first. FISA is a Chicken-Little rubber stamp and has been for awhile.
The top secret Verizon court order was leaked.
How much do you wanna bet there are court orders for ATT, T-Mobil, etc, etc that are in place just not yet leaked?
According to the Patriot Act these powers are to be used for 'suspected' terrorist purposes...
Guess Everyone is now a suspect...sounds American to me :rolleyes:
Basenshukai
06-06-2013, 13:18
Well, I just know that there are no court orders on Sprint phones since they don't generally get a good signal anywhere. :D
But Bush promised us the Patriot Act and FISA warrants wouldn't occur on US soil. Seriously though, who cares? If the gov't wants to have you saying a phrase on tape they'll have you saying a word on tape. You don't need a FISA warrant for some ATF agents to led a judge admit into evidence a suspect "allegedly asking to purchase explosives overseas."
There's no "discovery" in fed courts and the Brady rule has zero teeth because of prosecutorial immunity and Mike Nifong is the best sideshow to ever happen to prosecutors. As a former prosecutor it's amazing what the judge believed then but now the same judge disbelieves because I sit on the left side of the courtroom.
But Bush promised us the Patriot Act and FISA warrants wouldn't occur on US soil. Seriously though, who cares? If the gov't wants to have you saying a phrase on tape they'll have you saying a word on tape. You don't need a FISA warrant for some ATF agents to led a judge admit into evidence a suspect "allegedly asking to purchase explosives overseas."
There's no "discovery" in fed courts and the Brady rule has zero teeth because of prosecutorial immunity and Mike Nifong is the best sideshow to ever happen to prosecutors. As a former prosecutor it's amazing what the judge believed then but now the same judge disbelieves because I sit on the left side of the courtroom.
It's odd that so many in the Justice system, from law makers to judges, regardless of ideology, find understanding the Constitution so difficult to grasp. The Intent and Purpose is very clearly defined in the documents themselves and the authors of said documents writings on the Intent and Purpose.
Seems President Cleveland was of the few whom spent the time to understand this in a time when all this information was not at their finger tips.
Pretty lazy of them or they have some wires crossed.
Personally not willing to give up my rights because the gov needs to protect/take care of me. Seems to me the terrorist win with these types of intrusions.
The Government has one f.cking job-to leave Citizens the f.ck alone unless absolutely necessary.
The Government has one f.cking job-to leave Citizens the f.ck alone unless absolutely necessary.
Very succinctly put...in my native tongue no less.
Team Sergeant
06-06-2013, 17:09
Let me know when the shooting starts, I'd hate to miss it.....
Former NSA head defends agency reportedly spying on millions of Americans
Published June 06, 2013
FoxNews.com
The NSA isn’t spying on the vast majority of Americans, a former head of the spy agency told Fox News on Thursday, defending what one civil liberties group called the "broadest surveillance order to ever have been issued."
A report by the Guardian revealed that under the Obama administration, the communication records of millions of U.S. citizens were being collected indiscriminately and in bulk, regardless of whether they were suspected of any wrongdoing. The report was based on a confidential order reportedly granted by the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court on April 25 that is good through July 19.
But the seizure of the phone records of millions of Verizon users did not mean the agency was spying on Americans, explained former NSA deputy director Cedric Leighton.
'If the rules are followed then there should not be much a of a problem with it -- but you have to be very careful.' (Just like the IRS was with the tax records of everyday citizens.....)
- Former NSA deputy director Cedric Leighton
"You really don’t have time when you're an agency like the NSA to listen in to everybody’s conversations," Leighton told Fox News anchor Bill Hemmer. "You only listen in on those that you have a specific warrant for or have reason to believe they are engaged in terrorist activities."
"What we are looking at here is a way to go through a whole bunch of info very, very quickly,” Leighton explained.
"I am okay with the basic idea of going after those who are connected to terrorist groups, and I think most Americans are okay with that," said Leighton. "What you are looking at though is a lot of data, and it requires a lot of good control mechanisms put in place for handling that data. If those controls are followed, if the rules are followed, then there should not be much a of a problem with it -- but you have to be very careful."
Cont:
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2013/06/06/former-nsa-head-defends-agency-reportedly-spying-on-americans/#ixzz2VTq2aZsS
A dissenting point of view.
This NSA program has been in place for years.
It consists of computers screening calls looking for trends/patterns ID'd by the NSA...jihadi sites etc. Looking where when, not content.
When and if a hit comes up they still must get a court order to investigate that individual phone number.
I don't see a way round this one.
I know in light of the other issues...IRS, news guys targeted etc it makes everything suspect.
Yes you do need to be very careful dipsh.t. Your boss (actually, us) should take you in an office, close the door and ask "What the f.ck are you doing?"
"You took an oath to defend and protect the Constitution, what happened to that?"
You guys are really a disappointment over there. Use the law as it was intended instead of being lazy and trying to scare the weak with the terrorism line. Thought we crushed them? Or is the threat folks whom stand by the Second Amendment or think the GOV is too big. If you stop and think clearly about it you'll see you have shown to all Americans it is too big and we definitely need to protect our liberties.
With that said I cannot help but laugh at you, really, for thinking we are naive and that you have our trust; because we are not and don't...You've Earned it...
spherojon
06-06-2013, 18:13
Yes you do need to be very careful dipsh.t. Your boss (actually, us) should take you in an office, close the door and ask "What the f.ck are you doing?"
"You took an oath to defend and protect the Constitution, what happened to that?"
You guys are really a disappointment over there. Use the law as it was intended instead of being lazy and trying to scare the weak with the terrorism line. Thought we crushed them? Or is the threat folks whom stand by the Second Amendment or think the GOV is too big. If you stop and think clearly about it you'll see you have shown to all Americans it is too big and we definitely need to protect our liberties.
With that said I cannot help but laugh at you, really, for thinking we are naive and that you have our trust; because we are not and don't...You've Earned it...
**cough** you know some of his employees are on this forum right?
**cough** you know some of his employees are on this forum right?
So what? They catalog this site as well...probably already on the 'idiot list'
What country am I in?
Trapper John
06-06-2013, 19:32
A dissenting point of view.
This NSA program has been in place for years.
It consists of computers screening calls looking for trends/patterns ID'd by the NSA...jihadi sites etc. Looking where when, not content.
When and if a hit comes up they still must get a court order to investigate that individual phone number.
I don't see a way round this one.
I know in light of the other issues...IRS, news guys targeted etc it makes everything suspect.
Agree, in principle CSM. But as you said, in light of the recent revelations about the IRS, DoJ, etc. this is very troubling. I was watching a program this past weekend (can't remember what one - senior moment :eek:) that was describing the new facility being built for the NSA in Utah. The capabilities there will be enough to monitor every (yup, I said every) electronic communication coming into and out of CONUS. The memory capacity of this new facility was graphically represented as exceeding that from enough i-phones that if stacked one on top of the other the stack would reach the moon! :eek:
The former NSA Director, LTG Michael Hayden, cautioned that with this kind of capability the transition to totalitarian state is nothing more than a "flip of a switch". A very, very sobering thought. Especially in light of the current events.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
Agree, in principle CSM. But as you said, in light of the recent revelations about the IRS, DoJ, etc. this is very troubling. I was watching a program this past weekend (can't remember what one - senior moment :eek:) that was describing the new facility being built for the NSA in Utah. The capabilities there will be enough to monitor every (yup, I said every) electronic communication coming into and out of CONUS. The memory capacity of this new facility was graphically represented as exceeding that from enough i-phones that if stacked one on top of the other the stack would reach the moon! :eek:
The former NSA Director, LTG Michael Hayden, cautioned that with this kind of capability the transition to totalitarian state is nothing more than a "flip of a switch". A very, very sobering thought. Especially in light of the current events.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
And what got me going is that I had a lot respect for the NSA (integrity, honesty, cool computers) but the current director not two months ago said we don't store data on U.S citizens as per their directive. Would have been much better to just say we don't discuss our operations, unless something changed not under your control since that statement. If it has than I apologize for previous tarse comment.
Though I know they have higher standards in many respects, it's way too broad...
Trapper, in light of recent developments...makes everything suspect. That program, if IF executed as designed is a good tool...but under the present admin who knows who gets what info.
GratefulCitizen
06-06-2013, 19:57
The former NSA Director, LTG Michael Hayden, cautioned that with this kind of capability the transition to totalitarian state is nothing more than a "flip of a switch". A very, very sobering thought. Especially in light of the current events.
They don't have control until boots on the ground have control.
They are at a severe force-ratio disadvantage when it comes to actual boots.
I think all of these leaks about the surveillance state are deliberate leaks.
They are desperate and trying to leverage fear and the illusion of omniscience in order to maintain control.
The simple facts are: they can't get us all, and they need us to produce.
Government power isn't waxing, it is waning.
Surf n Turf
06-06-2013, 20:35
These revelations were not unexpected. From the beginning of the Bluffdale facility announcement it was clear that the only logical use of the place was massive data collection, analysis, and decryption activities, with every sign of a domestic component.
What was a surprise, to me, was the acknowledgement today that the communications of the JUDICIAL AND LEGESLATIVE Branches of our government had also been collected (and analyzed ???).
Time for a “tin foil” hat moment, but does anyone think that Roberts vote on Obamacare will be found in Utah.
Concerned, but not filling magazines yet
SnT
That program, if IF executed as designed is a good tool..
How does it pass the constitutional and their guidelines test?
Normally I am with this forum 100% on most issues. This one I am unsure of for a couple reasons.
One, agree with PRB.
Two the Patriot act may have been "Bush's fault" simply because he signed it, but it's actually Biden's little wet dream. The Omnibus Counterterrorism Bill of 1995 was introduced by Biden. The Patriot acts main points come from that bill and the Clinton administration. Yet another group of real winners, I know. Either way, I do not feel Bush really put a whole lot more work into something the previous Admin already had ready to go. So can you complain about Bush in the context of the law? I do not think so. I think it would be more appropriate in the focus on reactive leadership. Bush had to make some quick moves to start hunting down these bad guys. This law was the best way to do it. It was there and available, so he signed it and moved on. Many of those our nation has hunted down was largely in part to the passing of the bill. That intel boost turned out to be exceptionally useful in quick and efficient hunting of bad guys.
There IS this current connection to the current administration in that Biden was a big part of that process and that Obama has vastly expanded it since.
I however, do not believe that the metadata is being used for anything it should not be.
I as well understand everyone is pissed about a lot of current events. I would also caution that I am sure many members of this forum are aware, just because something is classified does not mean it is really all that interesting. As well, just because something is classified does not really mean it is a direct conspiracy against you personally.
This kind of behavior of collection has been going on since the inception of electronic surveillance. There is absolutely no reason anyone should be surprised. Think of it this way, if the metadata system of intel was suddenly completely put to an end and an analyst could no longer connect A-B, there would no longer be any hunting of bad guys. It would put a real end to a lot of CT missions very quickly.
I feel like the articles were a troll in the news just trying to be sensational again to get everyone all upset. Or perhaps a politically motivated distraction from other issues...
Another final thought, it is as if a soldier were to be asked to turn their guns on other US citizens is it not? Think that the majority of analysts that work in the positions in question are typically military. To make what is implied by many of you possible, you would have to have some seriously bad apples. I really do not believe it has gotten that bad yet that I can not trust my brothers in uniform to do the right thing....Just say'in.
Biden and the widely unknown history of the Patriot Act:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10024163-38.html?tag=newsLeadStoriesArea.0
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d104:SN00390:@@@K
Utah Bob
06-06-2013, 21:27
If it isn't the Chinese it's our own government. :mad:
I'm getting a good feeling about my Guillotine, LLC stock holdings...
Looking forward to them running that Useful Tool (Expert System) on our Health Records, maybe do some cross referencing on our Phone and Power usage just for some extra detail, then add the below crap:
<snip>
The National Security Agency and the FBI are tapping directly into the central servers of nine leading U.S. Internet companies, extracting audio and video chats, photographs, e-mails, documents, and connection logs that enable analysts to track foreign targets, according to a top-secret document obtained by The Washington Post
http://m.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-intelligence-mining-data-from-nine-us-internet-companies-in-broad-secret-program/2013/06/06/3a0c0da8-cebf-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_story.html?hpid=z1
Should be interesting...Thanks for the Stock tip mr2
So it appears they are vacuuming in credit card activity also.
The problem is not that civilian sales agencies do it. The problem is that the government is doing it.
So now somebody in the government can push a few buttons and see that Joe spends 20% of his credit card purchases on gun, survival and outdoor stuff - and look here - another 5% was to the NRA-ILA, GOA and other similar groups.
Maybe we should slide this over to DHS and the FBI. Maybe we can find an outstanding parking ticket so we can do a 0200 no-knock search of his place and get another terrorist off the street.
Author of Patriot Act says NSA phone records collection 'never the intent' of law
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/06/06/author-patriot-act-says-phone-records-collection-excessive/#ixzz2VWtCYixY
"The author of the Patriot Act said Thursday that a secret program under which the Obama administration was collecting phone records from millions of Americans is "excessive" and beyond the scope of the law.
Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner, R-Wis., who wrote the 2001 law, was among a host of lawmakers on both sides of the aisle who raised alarm over the practice. ........"
The Patriot Act expires in 2015 - if not renewed. Does anyone really think if it's not they'll tear down the Bluffdale facility if the Patriot Act expires?
Irishsquid
06-07-2013, 06:04
Just throwing it out there. For you Android users, RedPhone and TextSecure are your friends. End-to-end encryption, as long as the person you are talking to uses them as well. If you're an iPhone type, look into silent circle.
Also, bear in mind that with TextSecure, if your phone is seized, the strength of your password is all you have. Something like OhGodOhGodItIs1984AndOrwellWasRight#!)#!)#!)#!) should do the trick. Also, if you don't have whole-disk encryption running on your phone, you are just asking for trouble.
Official response from James Clapper, DNI.
June 6, 2013
DNI Statement on Recent Unauthorized Disclosures of Classified Information
The highest priority of the Intelligence Community is to work within the constraints of law to collect, analyze and understand information related to potential threats to our national security.
The unauthorized disclosure of a top secret U.S. court document threatens potentially long-lasting and irreversible harm to our ability to identify and respond to the many threats facing our nation.
The article omits key information regarding how a classified intelligence collection program is used to prevent terrorist attacks and the numerous safeguards that protect privacy and civil liberties.
I believe it is important for the American people to understand the limits of this targeted counterterrorism program and the principles that govern its use. In order to provide a more thorough understanding of the program, I have directed that certain information related to the “business records” provision of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act be declassified and immediately released to the public.
The following important facts explain the purpose and limitations of the program:
The judicial order that was disclosed in the press is used to support a sensitive intelligence collection operation, on which members of Congress have been fully and repeatedly briefed. The classified program has been authorized by all three branches of the Government.
Although this program has been properly classified, the leak of one order, without any context, has created a misleading impression of how it operates. Accordingly, we have determined to declassify certain limited information about this program.
The program does not allow the Government to listen in on anyone’s phone calls. The information acquired does not include the content of any communications or the identity of any subscriber. The only type of information acquired under the Court’s order is telephony metadata, such as telephone numbers dialed and length of calls.
The collection is broad in scope because more narrow collection would limit our ability to screen for and identify terrorism-related communications. Acquiring this information allows us to make connections related to terrorist activities over time. The FISA Court specifically approved this method of collection as lawful, subject to stringent restrictions.
The information acquired has been part of an overall strategy to protect the nation from terrorist threats to the United States, as it may assist counterterrorism personnel to discover whether known or suspected terrorists have been in contact with other persons who may be engaged in terrorist activities.
There is a robust legal regime in place governing all activities conducted pursuant to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which ensures that those activities comply with the Constitution and laws and appropriately protect privacy and civil liberties. The program at issue here is conducted under authority granted by Congress and is authorized by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC). By statute, the Court is empowered to determine the legality of the program.
By order of the FISC, the Government is prohibited from indiscriminately sifting through the telephony metadata acquired under the program. All information that is acquired under this program is subject to strict, court-imposed restrictions on review and handling. The court only allows the data to be queried when there is a reasonable suspicion, based on specific facts, that the particular basis for the query is associated with a foreign terrorist organization. Only specially cleared counterterrorism personnel specifically trained in the Court-approved procedures may even access the records.
All information that is acquired under this order is subject to strict restrictions on handling and is overseen by the Department of Justice and the FISA Court. Only a very small fraction of the records are ever reviewed because the vast majority of the data is not responsive to any terrorism-related query.
The Court reviews the program approximately every 90 days. DOJ conducts rigorous oversight of the handling of the data received to ensure the applicable restrictions are followed. In addition, DOJ and ODNI regularly review the program implementation to ensure it continues to comply with the law.
The Patriot Act was signed into law in October 2001 and included authority to compel production of business records and other tangible things relevant to an authorized national security investigation with the approval of the FISC. This provision has subsequently been reauthorized over the course of two Administrations – in 2006 and in 2011. It has been an important investigative tool that has been used over the course of two Administrations, with the authorization and oversight of the FISC and the Congress.
Discussing programs like this publicly will have an impact on the behavior of our adversaries and make it more difficult for us to understand their intentions. Surveillance programs like this one are consistently subject to safeguards that are designed to strike the appropriate balance between national security interests and civil liberties and privacy concerns. I believe it is important to address the misleading impression left by the article and to reassure the American people that the Intelligence Community is committed to respecting the civil liberties and privacy of all American citizens.
James R. Clapper, Director of National Intelligence
http://www.dni.gov/index.php/newsroom/press-releases/191-press-releases-2013/868-dni-statement-on-recent-unauthorized-disclosures-of-classified-information
PedOncoDoc
06-07-2013, 07:19
Also, bear in mind that with TextSecure, if your phone is seized, the strength of your password is all you have. Something like OhGodOhGodItIs1984AndOrwellWasRight#!)#!)#!)#!) should do the trick.
Looks like myt password has now been compromised - thanks a lot. :D
As long as you're not like this guy... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6iW-8xPw3k) ;)
Trust us - We're from the IRS and the NSA, we're here to help and protect you.
uspsmark
06-07-2013, 08:14
"Verizon Wireless, America's largest (most listened to and watched) 4G LTE network. If you don't believe us, ask the NSA!"
Some perspective:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2013/06/07/stephen-colbert-on-the-nsas-phone-record-surveillance-video/
:D
For those whom wonder why they see those xxxxredactedxxxxx...you now know where it'll end up. Utah and another new 600k sqft data center under construction in Fort Meade.
At the risk of some folks not reading the ENTIRE post...ya gotta laugh...there can be a grain of truth in humor.
<snip>
Welcome to the Domestic Surveillance Directorate
Your Data: If You Have Nothing to Hide, You Have Nothing to Fear
For security reasons, it is unrealistic to expect a complete list of information we collect for our national citizen database. In the spirit of openness and transparency however, here is a partial list:
internet searches
websites visited
emails sent and received
social media activity (Facebook, Twitter, etc)
blogging activity including posts read, written, and commented on - View our patent
videos watched and/or uploaded online
photos viewed and/or uploaded online
music downloads
mobile phone GPS-location data
mobile phone apps downloaded
phone call records - View our patent
text messages sent and received
online purchases and auction transactions
bookstore receipts
credit card/ debit card transactions
bank statements
cable television shows watched and recorded
commuter toll records
parking receipts
electronic bus and subway passes / Smartpasses
travel itineraries
border crossings
surveillance cameras
medical information including diagnoses and treatments
prescription drug purchases
guns and ammunition sales
educational records
arrest records
driver license information
Future Uses of Domestic Intelligence Data
In 2006, the Intelligence Advanced Research Projects Activity (IARPA) was created to invest in high-risk, high-payoff classified programs uniquely designed to provide research and technical capabilities for the Intelligence Community. IARPA-funded researchers are currently studying novel ways of processing and analyzing the explosive growth of domestic data.
The Aladdin program seeks to extract intelligence information from the high volume of videos uploaded to the internet.
The Babel program is developing agile and robust speech recognition technology that can provide effective search capability for analysts to efficiently process massive amounts of real-world recorded speech.
The Knowledge Discovery and Dissemination (KDD) program will develop advanced analytic algorithms that can effectively draw inferences across multiple databases to allow the Intelligence Community to create virtual fusion centers enabling analysts to produce actionable intelligence.
The Socio-cultural Content in Language (SCIL) Program will develop novel algorithms, techniques and technologies to uncover the social actions and characteristics of members of a group (ie; within discussion forums, online comment sections, social media, etc.) by examining the language used in relation to acceptable social and cultural norms.
The Reynard Program starts from the premise that "real world" characteristics are reflected in "virtual world" behavior. The program seeks to identify behavioral indicators in online virtual worlds and "massively multiplayer online games" that are related to the real world characteristics of the users. Attributes of interest include gender, age, economic status, educational level, occupation, ideology or "world view", and physical geographic location.
This is a parody of nsa.gov and has not been approved, endorsed, or authorized by the National Security Agency or by any other U.S. Government agency.
Much of this content was derived from news media, privacy groups, and government websites. Links to these sites are posted on the left-sidebars of each page.
<snip>
http://nsa.gov1.info/data/index.html
Again, don't be a knucklehead...this is a parody ! :D
Irishsquid
06-07-2013, 10:02
Looks like myt password has now been compromised - thanks a lot. :D
As long as you're not like this guy... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6iW-8xPw3k) ;)
Hehe..."buddy," is only the first word ;-)
Seriously...if anyone has questions about data security and privacy, feel free to ask. That's what I do for a living these days. In fact, I used to teach all the analysts on their way to the organization in question.
The only type of information acquired under the Court’s order is telephony metadata, such as telephone numbers dialed and length of calls.
I am soooo comforted. Taken out of context, huh? this sentence is exactly what the press said it was. So, Clapper can say whatever he wants but, at the end of the day, my phone calls are being catalogued for cross referencing against a terrorist database without any probable cause that I have done something wrong.
Jesus Christ! The stuff coming from this admin just keeps getting better and better.
The stuff coming from this admin just keeps getting better and better.
And, Clapper's discomfort is with the leak and decidedly not with the vast collection of data and cross referencing US citizens without PC.
Given the latest revelations regarding the IRS use of data...this government is getting out of hand.
"PING"
I'm outta here !;)
Regardless how this disclosure is spun in the press, here is the rub (IMO) taken from the original story from the Guardian:
Clapper attacked the disclosures by the Guardian and the Washington Post as "reprehensible" for risking "important protections for the security of Americans".
“Discussing programs like this publicly,” Clapper concluded, “will have an impact on the behavior of our adversaries and make it more difficult for us to understand their intentions.”
Disclosure of the massive surveillance of phone records and internet communications risks “long-lasting and irreversible harm” to US national security, the director of national intelligence says.
“There is a robust legal regime in place governing all activities conducted pursuant to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act,” Clapper wrote, “which ensures that those activities comply with the Constitution and laws and appropriately protect privacy and civil liberties. The program at issue here is conducted under authority granted by Congress and is authorized by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC). By statute, the Court is empowered to determine the legality of the program."
----------
In the end, the article clearly points out that the program isn't merely a rouge agency going nuts (like IRS focusing on conservative groups) but a program with Federal judicial scrutiny AND legislative oversight.
The public outrage SHOULD be at the disclosure and not the activity. :confused:
In the end, the article clearly points out that the program isn't merely a rouge agency going nuts (like IRS focusing on conservative groups) but a program with Federal judicial scrutiny AND legislative oversight.
'Cause the Attorney General, a Federal Judge and Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid always get it right.
IMO, given this administration's track record a dose of healthy skepticism is past due...
The public outrage SHOULD be at the disclosure and not the activity. :confused:
Really? So, because Congress has abdicated their responsibility and the Judicial branch has rubber stamped, we should be mad at the whistleblower? Get real. Read what Clapper says and boil it down to its most basic form. They gather up data on phone numbers called and for what duration by pretty much everyone. That violates the expectation by the 4th Amendment that you are safe from unreasonable searches and seizures without judicially sanctioned (this part they have with, ahem, FISA court) probable cause (this they don't have unless everyone who picks up a phone is believed to be a possible terrorist or terrorist sympathizer).
perdurabo
06-07-2013, 11:25
I am soooo comforted. Taken out of context, huh? this sentence is exactly what the press said it was. So, Clapper can say whatever he wants but, at the end of the day, my phone calls are being catalogued for cross referencing against a terrorist database without any probable cause that I have done something wrong.
Jesus Christ! The stuff coming from this admin just keeps getting better and better.
What people are not realizing is that the NSA exploits compartmentalization quite well.
On one hand, it's used to compartmentalize classified information to individuals or teams on a need-to-know basis. Virtually all of us here who have served are well-familiar with this concept.
On the other hand, the NSA uses compartmentalization to counter oversight and limit the visible scope of a goal. Take the call metadata program, for example. I'm not sure whether the program name has been leaked (PRISM is another program entirely), but let's call it "HORSESH!T".
While HORSESH!T's scope is collecting call metadata (phone numbers, date & times, who they called, etc) you can virtually guarantee HORSESH!T has sister programs (let's make up the name FROGBUTT) that DOES connect the information from the HORSESH!T program to the personal data collected in the FROGBUTT program. There may be an additional program called DONKEYSNOT that records the contents of all the phone calls in the US, this is, in turn, chained to the data from the other programs.
It's compartmentalized. If information from one program is compromised, only one part of the overall picture becomes unveiled. The NSA can plausibly deny the actual scope of a program. It lessens damage to "national security". Jigsaw intelligence.
Team Sergeant
06-07-2013, 11:29
Yup let's give up all our freedoms in the name of security.....
Sure saved us from the last bombing didn't it.:munchin
The morons had that information also and did nothing what do you expect them to do with all the information on millions of Americans? Maybe harass non-liberals? But that would be a stretch wouldn't it......
Yup just keep allowing the "Government" to take all the personal freedoms it likes until you've signed away everything, in the name of security.
Anything for the children.
Ask the folks of Boston about the trillion dollars a year spent on "National Security" and the personal freedoms we've given up are working for them......
Sheep.
Really? So, because Congress has abdicated their responsibility and the Judicial branch has rubber stamped, we should be mad at the whistleblower? Get real. Read what Clapper says and boil it down to its most basic form. They gather up data on phone numbers called and for what duration by pretty much everyone. That violates the expectation by the 4th Amendment that you are safe from unreasonable searches and seizures without judicially sanctioned (this part they have with, ahem, FISA court) probable cause (this they don't have unless everyone who picks up a phone is believed to be a possible terrorist or terrorist sympathizer).
The President clearly articulated that the program doesn't apply to Americans living in the United States, the FISC has upheld the ruling, and bi-partisan legislators have been briefed. As the President stated, this is about data and not content.
I would argue that the data is akin to GPS tracking data which the SCOTUS has decided doesn't require a warrant.
The President clearly articulated that the program doesn't apply to Americans living in the United States, the FISC has upheld the ruling, and bi-partisan legislators have been briefed. As the President stated, this is about data and not content.
I would argue that the data is akin to GPS tracking data which the SCOTUS has decided doesn't require a warrant.
The President has proven to be so forthcoming and honest. You aren't reading Clapper's (who knows more about the program than President Obama does) words. He contradicts his own boss. But, you are obviously a kool aid drinker. Enjoy.
What people are not realizing is that the NSA exploits compartmentalization quite well.
This "people" understands that politicians and bureaucrats exploit information quite readily.
Can the current administration or any future administration be trusted with vast amounts of given political adversaries personal information???
IMO, given the rapid advancement of technology - the balance between security and liberty is a valid consideration.
As someone once said...trust but verify.
perdurabo
06-07-2013, 11:52
Yup let's give up all our freedoms in the name of security.....
Sure saved us from the last bombing didn't it.:munchin
The morons had that information also and did nothing what do you expect them to do with all the information on millions of Americans? Maybe harass non-liberals? But that would be a stretch wouldn't it......
Yup just keep allowing the "Government" to take all the personal freedoms it likes until you've signed away everything, in the name of security.
Anything for the children.
Ask the folks of Boston about the trillion dollars a year spent on "National Security" and the personal freedoms we've given up are working for them......
Sheep.
With all due respect, this isn't and shouldn't be made into a partisan thing. This thing was started under Bush* and expanded under Obama. You have Lindsey Graham, Karl Rove, and other right-wingers on the TV cheerleading the administration's efforts.
I'm annoyed to see so many right-wingers jumping on the bandwagon now that a Democrat president is in office. Where were they when this was all born under a Republican administration? Oh right, supporting it. Both sides should take the blame.
* Ok, ok, much of it was born prior to Bush, but I'm referring to the post-PATRIOT Act.
Surf n Turf
06-07-2013, 11:57
I would argue that the data is akin to GPS tracking data which the SCOTUS has decided doesn't require a warrant.
Lindy,
I would argue that your information is incorrect.
The SCOTUS has ruled that GPS tracking REQUIRES a warrant.
SnT
“All nine justices agreed that the placement of the GPS on the Jeep violated the Fourth Amendment’s protection against unreasonable search and seizure.”
“Associate Justice Antonin Scalia said [in his opinion for the Court] that the government’s installation of a GPS device, and its use to monitor the vehicle’s movements, constitutes a search, meaning that a warrant is required.
“By attaching the device to the Jeep” that Jones was using, “officers encroached on a protected area,” Scalia wrote.”
http://abovethelaw.com/2012/01/breaking-scotus-rules-in-highly-anticipated-gps-tracking-case/
Did you just watch Obama's press conference? I thought it was a live dramatic reading of Orwell's 1984.
ddoering
06-07-2013, 12:14
The former NSA Director, LTG Michael Hayden, cautioned that with this kind of capability the transition to totalitarian state is nothing more than a "flip of a switch". A very, very sobering thought. Especially in light of the current events.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
But they would never use it to monitor conservative groups. That is far etched.
Lindy,
I would argue that your information is incorrect.
The SCOTUS has ruled that GPS tracking REQUIRES a warrant.
SnT
Thanks SNT! So please allow me to justify my postion with another case devoted to data:
Smith v Maryland, 442 U.S. 735 (1979)
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=442&invol=735
The telephone company, at police request, installed at its central offices a pen register to record the numbers dialed from the telephone at petitioner's home. Prior to his robbery trial, petitioner moved to suppress "all fruits derived from" the pen register. The Maryland trial court denied this motion, holding that the warrantless installation of the pen register did not violate the Fourth Amendment. Petitioner was convicted, and the Maryland Court of Appeals affirmed.
Court's opinion was (in part):
First, we doubt that people in general entertain any actual expectation of privacy in the numbers they dial. All telephone users realize that they must "convey" phone numbers to the telephone company, since it is through telephone company switching equipment that their calls are completed. All subscribers realize, moreover, that the phone company has facilities for making permanent records of the numbers they dial, for they see a list of their long-distance (toll) calls on their monthly bills. In fact, pen registers and similar devices are routinely used by telephone companies "for the purposes of checking billing operations, detecting fraud, and preventing violations of law." United States v. New York Tel. Co., 434 U.S., at 174 -175. Electronic equipment is used not only to keep billing records of toll calls, but also "to keep a record of all calls dialed from a telephone which is subject to a special rate structure." Hodge v. Mountain States Tel. & Tel. Co., 555 F.2d 254, 266 (CA9 1977) (concurring opinion). Pen registers are regularly employed "to determine whether a home phone is being used to conduct a business, to check for a defective dial, or to check for overbilling."
Telephone users, in sum, typically know that they must convey numerical information to the phone company; that the phone company has facilities for recording this information; and that the phone company does in fact record this information for a variety of legitimate business purposes. Although subjective expectations cannot be scientifically gauged, it is too much to believe that telephone subscribers, under these circumstances, harbor any general expectation that the numbers they dial will remain secret.
We therefore conclude that petitioner in all probability entertained no actual expectation of privacy in the phone numbers he dialed, and that, even if he did, his expectation was not "legitimate."
(Of course there was a dissenting opinion which can be read via the URL above.)
The Government has one f.cking job-to leave Citizens the f.ck alone unless absolutely necessary.
Just because you have read and understood the Constitution, Declaration of Independence and the Federalist Papers doesn't mean our gov't has. But then the gov't knows with their sideshow of Fox vs Msnbc that most americans are busy hating eah other instead of congress/president/scotus.
The judiciary appears very open to approving wiretap requests...so metadata should be no sweat...just ask James Rosen and his family.
IMO, sweeping government snooping without a duly issued warrant is repugnant to liberty and a free society.
If you do not think that political operatives can make hay with most every one of our lives - based on a selective interpretation, release and spin of data - you're deluding yourselves.
There are sound fundamental reasons why privacy is a right.
With this coming to light, anyone know how I can get my records?
Specifically my text records from June of 2009. My EX-girlfriend says I didn't text her telling her I was going to be late for dinner. I say I did. I just want to prove the bitch wrong. :D
uspsmark
06-07-2013, 13:26
"You can't have 100 percent security and also then have 100 percent privacy and zero inconvenience. We're going to have to make some choices as a society," Obama said.
Does this mean he is guaranteeing us 100% security?
Team Sergeant
06-07-2013, 13:28
With all due respect, this isn't and shouldn't be made into a partisan thing. This thing was started under Bush* and expanded under Obama. You have Lindsey Graham, Karl Rove, and other right-wingers on the TV cheerleading the administration's efforts.
I'm annoyed to see so many right-wingers jumping on the bandwagon now that a Democrat president is in office. Where were they when this was all born under a Republican administration? Oh right, supporting it. Both sides should take the blame.
* Ok, ok, much of it was born prior to Bush, but I'm referring to the post-PATRIOT Act.
I never supported creating DHS, Fusion Centers or any spying on American Citizens. Spy all you want overseas but collecting data on law abiding American citizens, I've had enough. We've already seen an abuse of power that should send the moron and his cabinet to prison or worse.
Team Sergeant
06-07-2013, 13:30
"You can't have 100 percent security and also then have 100 percent privacy and zero inconvenience. We're going to have to make some choices as a society," Obama said.
Does this mean he is guaranteeing us 100% security?
Yes you can, you make the retribution for conducting terrorism so appalling that the mere idea sends chills up the spine of every muslim in the world. We've failed very badly in that area.
perdurabo
06-07-2013, 13:31
I never supported creating DHS, Fusion Centers or any spying on American Citizens. Spy all you want overseas but collecting data on law abiding American citizens, I've had enough. We've already seen an abuse of power that should send the moron and his cabinet to prison or worse.
I agree and I'm glad to hear you state that. But, it goes far beyond Obama, though. If you just heard his speech, you heard him pass the blame onto Congress stating that they were aware of the programs, they voted on them, they passed them.
Passing the buck; the sign of great leadership, eh?
To bad all of them have been lying...at this point don't believe a damn word that they say...
One terrorist act prevented...good job...
Team Sergeant
06-07-2013, 13:41
I agree and I'm glad to hear you state that. But, it goes far beyond Obama, though. If you just heard his speech, you heard him pass the blame onto Congress stating that they were aware of the programs, they voted on them, they passed them.
Passing the buck; the sign of great leadership, eh?
Chicago style leadership...... murder capital of the United States, speaks volumes about the Teleprompter Reader and Chief.....
Way Too Many Liars, Way Too Big...
perdurabo
06-07-2013, 13:54
Here's the transcript of Obama's statements this morning:
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/06/07/transcript-what-obama-said-on-nsa-controversy/?mod=e2tw
Also, if you haven't read James Bamford's excellent Shadow Factory, you should. It covers this very topic in depth. He further states that the scope of the NSA's various programs actually extend far beyond what Congress is aware of.
http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Factory-Ultra-Secret-Eavesdropping-ebook/dp/B001FA0JLY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1370634816&sr=8-1&keywords=shadow+factory
PRISM by the Numbers: A Guide to the Government’s Secret Internet Data-Mining Program
Time, 6 June 2013
http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/06/06/prism-by-the-numbers-a-guide-to-the-governments-secret-internet-data-mining-program/#ixzz2VZNRWkun
PRISM by the Numbers: A Guide to the Government’s Secret Internet Data-Mining Program
Time, 6 June 2013
http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/06/06/prism-by-the-numbers-a-guide-to-the-governments-secret-internet-data-mining-program/#ixzz2VZNRWkun
Does not suprise me!!!
Justice Department Fights Release of Secret Court Opinion Finding Unconstitutional Surveillance (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/06/justice-department-electronic-frontier-foundation-fisa-court-opinion)
Government lawyers are trying to keep buried a classified court finding that a domestic spying program went too far.
Congressional support (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/map_of_the_week/2013/06/maps_senators_who_voted_to_expand_nsa_s_power.html ) for the Patriot Act, upgrades, and FISA amendments.
Trapper John
06-08-2013, 07:40
Yes you can, you make the retribution for conducting terrorism so appalling that the mere idea sends chills up the spine of every muslim in the world. We've failed very badly in that area.
:lifter EXACTLY:lifter
This whole NSA expansion (intrusion) is not necessary for security, IMO. That is misinformation and propaganda. It is all about controlling 300+ million people. Control our income potential (tax code and IRS), have access to all electronic communications, do away with hard currency, control the supply of ammunition and guns, control our health care, control the message, and while your at it - control the education of future generations - BINGO! The government controls everything and we only think we have a choice. :mad:
Yes you can, you make the retribution for conducting terrorism so appalling that the mere idea sends chills up the spine of every muslim in the world. We've failed very badly in that area.
How do you do that when your enemy welcomes death? And when they literally sacrifice their own children for their horrific "religious" beliefs? I don't know how you can guarantee security by killing their comrades but leaving them alive. It's contradictory to our way of life where we value each person's sanctity of life and we especially value our children's lives over some cleric's goal. They don't think like we do.
How do you do that when your enemy welcomes death? And when they literally sacrifice their own children for their horrific "religious" beliefs? I don't know how you can guarantee security by killing their comrades but leaving them alive. It's contradictory to our way of life where we value each person's sanctity of life and we especially value our children's lives over some cleric's goal. They don't think like we do.
Group hug. :rolleyes:
Group hug. :rolleyes:lol,
What TS said...and don't let them make you outwardly afraid.
ddoering
06-08-2013, 14:58
How do you do that when your enemy welcomes death? And when they literally sacrifice their own children for their horrific "religious" beliefs? I don't know how you can guarantee security by killing their comrades but leaving them alive. It's contradictory to our way of life where we value each person's sanctity of life and we especially value our children's lives over some cleric's goal. They don't think like we do.
Ask the Japanese.
Ask the Japanese.
Look I'm personally on board with that but it took me a while to come to that conclusion. It's not something palatable to most Americans. The world especially western and northern Europe are seeing the core beliefs of Islam pillaging them. But how do our leaders go from Bush and Obama position of it's just a few bad apples to articulating a need for the Japanese solution?
ddoering
06-08-2013, 16:25
Look I'm personally on board with that but it took me a while to come to that conclusion. It's not something palatable to most Americans. The world especially western and northern Europe are seeing the core beliefs of Islam pillaging them. But how do our leaders go from Bush and Obama position of it's just a few bad apples to articulating a need for the Japanese solution?
Ideally Islamic countries will unite into a new super power. Once Islam becomes a recognized political system there will be less stigma for doing what needs to be done.
ddoering
06-08-2013, 17:20
Much is being made by those defending it - including those who are supposed to be engaged in oversight on behalf of the people - in terms of rationalizing, that the content is not at risk; no one's listening to phone calls. That's beside the point in my mind and is a deflector to the argument only.
Sure, and the IRS would never target a specific group of citizens based upon a few key words.
Perhaps Holder needs to investigate this.
Badger52
06-08-2013, 20:57
I'm getting a good feeling about my Guillotine, LLC stock holdings...I KNEW it, frack! I missed the IPO you sent because "someone" has been in my email account. This is so way beyond a better mousetrap.
Team Sergeant
06-09-2013, 09:21
Ask the Japanese.
Exactly.
By targeting only the enemy combatants this "war" will never end.
We need to target the infrastructure that supports them and destroy it. We need to "change" the way they think as a culture, not the individual terror factions, we know how they think. Only when the islamic mothers, wives, fathers, brothers and sisters tell their islamic fighters to stop will they stop. We need to target any and everyone that even hints at a jihad against the West. We need to remove our soldiers from their countries and only bomb when they cross the line. And I'm talking shock and awe targeting their governments, mosques, and all the supporting infrastructure. We need to stop any and all payments to countries that harbor terrorist factions, Pakistan fits this picture. Any and all US assistance needs to cease to Pakistan until they have cleaned their own house.
We succeeded with the Japanese and the Germans in three years. But we've been fighting the islamic ideology for centuries. But it still took us years to recognize Fascism for what it was and we still didn't act until war was declared on us....
Now war has been declared on the West but few want to recognize it as such. And until it's recognized as a violent ideology instead of a "religion" it won't end. At least we will not be the first country to fall to islam, that dubious honor will be European nations first, so we'll get to see what it's like when a thousand year old Western nation enacts sharia (islamic law) as the "new" law of that nation. Keep an eye on Belgium. It will be interesting when the islamic immigrants outnumber the Belgium people and vote in islamic law. I wonder if they will destroy every last remnant of the Belgium culture like they did when they destroyed the 5000 year old Buddhist statues in Afghanistan....
Five bucks says the next nuclear weapon that is used in anger will be used by an "islamic" individual against the West.... until then let's all just keep "tolerating" islam......
Exactly.
By targeting only the enemy combatants this "war" will never end.
We need to target the infrastructure that supports them and destroy it. We need to "change" the way they think as a culture, not the individual terror factions, we know how they think. Only when the islamic mothers, wives, fathers, brothers and sisters tell their islamic fighters to stop will they stop. We need to target any and everyone that even hints at a jihad against the West. We need to remove our soldiers from their countries and only bomb when they cross the line. And I'm talking shock and awe targeting their governments, mosques, and all the supporting infrastructure. We need to stop any and all payments to countries that harbor terrorist factions, Pakistan fits this picture. Any and all US assistance needs to cease to Pakistan until they have cleaned their own house.
We succeeded with the Japanese and the Germans in three years. But we've been fighting the islamic ideology for centuries. But it still took us years to recognize Fascism for what it was and we still didn't act until war was declared on us....
Now war has been declared on the West but few want to recognize it as such. And until it's recognized as a violent ideology instead of a "religion" it won't end. At least we will not be the first country to fall to islam, that dubious honor will be European nations first, so we'll get to see what it's like when a thousand year old Western nation enacts sharia (islamic law) as the "new" law of that nation. Keep an eye on Belgium. It will be interesting when the islamic immigrants outnumber the Belgium people and vote in islamic law. I wonder if they will destroy every last remnant of the Belgium culture like they did when they destroyed the 5000 year old Buddhist statues in Afghanistan....
Five bucks says the next nuclear weapon that is used in anger will be used by an "islamic" individual against the West.... until then let's all just keep "tolerating" islam......
A very excellent post,sir. The Europe part is scary and true.
In today's age I see that military men like yourself and some sane civilians are aware of the "war declared on the west" but what I see on social media and what saddens rather angers me the most is the large bunch of anti-OIF,anti-OEF,anti-gun,anti-drone strike, American and British individuals who believe that probably hugging,making peace and treating arabs/terrorists as human beings is the best way to ensure peace in the middle east. These are the people who are more moved by photos of drone strike kids(probably pakistani propaganda) in newspapers rather than the news on the number of American soldiers who died in the line of duty protecting these thankless individuals. I pity Europe and the UK for their coming future.
Exactly.
By targeting only the enemy combatants this "war" will never end.
We need to target the infrastructure that supports them and destroy it. We need to "change" the way they think as a culture, not the individual terror factions, we know how they think. Only when the islamic mothers, wives, fathers, brothers and sisters tell their islamic fighters to stop will they stop. We need to target any and everyone that even hints at a jihad against the West. We need to remove our soldiers from their countries and only bomb when they cross the line. And I'm talking shock and awe targeting their governments, mosques, and all the supporting infrastructure. We need to stop any and all payments to countries that harbor terrorist factions, Pakistan fits this picture. Any and all US assistance needs to cease to Pakistan until they have cleaned their own house.
We succeeded with the Japanese and the Germans in three years. But we've been fighting the islamic ideology for centuries. But it still took us years to recognize Fascism for what it was and we still didn't act until war was declared on us....
Now war has been declared on the West but few want to recognize it as such. And until it's recognized as a violent ideology instead of a "religion" it won't end. At least we will not be the first country to fall to islam, that dubious honor will be European nations first, so we'll get to see what it's like when a thousand year old Western nation enacts sharia (islamic law) as the "new" law of that nation. Keep an eye on Belgium. It will be interesting when the islamic immigrants outnumber the Belgium people and vote in islamic law. I wonder if they will destroy every last remnant of the Belgium culture like they did when they destroyed the 5000 year old Buddhist statues in Afghanistan....
Five bucks says the next nuclear weapon that is used in anger will be used by an "islamic" individual against the West.... until then let's all just keep "tolerating" islam......
I agree with all this. It's happening in Europe before all our eyes and the few groups standing up to it are labeled fascists and their political clout is minimized. The funny thing is if you watch Arabic news they are yucking up their victories against the West. Israelis know what the score is but are scared of losing aid if they do what they need to do.
Do you think when we leave A-stan we will also leave K2 or will abandon our southern Uzbek bases? I'm asking because we all know those russian satellites have unaccounted for materials and poor scientists who know how to use them. Open routes south then west would be very bad.
Surf n Turf
06-09-2013, 13:47
Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance
This kid is in for a world of hurtin’
Regardless of his breach of security (big time), maybe he helped stop an agenda that might bring George Orwell from the fiction section to history in your local library
SnT
The 29-year-old source behind the biggest intelligence leak in the NSA's history explains his motives, his uncertain future and why he never intended on hiding in the shadows
The individual responsible for one of the most significant leaks in US political history is Edward Snowden, a 29-year-old former technical assistant for the CIA and current employee of the defence contractor Booz Allen Hamilton. Snowden has been working at the National Security Agency for the last four years as an employee of various outside contractors, including Booz Allen and Dell.
The Guardian, after several days of interviews, is revealing his identity at his request. From the moment he decided to disclose numerous top-secret documents to the public, he was determined not to opt for the protection of anonymity. "I have no intention of hiding who I am because I know I have done nothing wrong," he said.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance
Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance
This kid is in for a world of hurtin’
Regardless of his breach of security (big time), maybe he helped stop an agenda that might bring George Orwell from the fiction section to history in your local library
SnT
The 29-year-old source behind the biggest intelligence leak in the NSA's history explains his motives, his uncertain future and why he never intended on hiding in the shadows
The individual responsible for one of the most significant leaks in US political history is Edward Snowden, a 29-year-old former technical assistant for the CIA and current employee of the defence contractor Booz Allen Hamilton. Snowden has been working at the National Security Agency for the last four years as an employee of various outside contractors, including Booz Allen and Dell.
The Guardian, after several days of interviews, is revealing his identity at his request. From the moment he decided to disclose numerous top-secret documents to the public, he was determined not to opt for the protection of anonymity. "I have no intention of hiding who I am because I know I have done nothing wrong," he said.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance
Do you think he did the right thing in the end?
Do you think he did the right thing in the end?
For us or the government?
For Us - Hell yeah.
For the government - No.
Who holds the most power to destroy his life? You got it, the government.
Team Sergeant
06-09-2013, 14:39
Do you think he did the right thing in the end?
I don't know, do you think the US Government demanding data from private communications companies including the private communications of millions of "Americans" is the right thing to do?
The NSA's charter was to listen to foreign communications and when you start listening to the private communications of millions of Americans you've crossed the line.
Tell me if the US Government had a Top Secret program for the targeted killing of Americans on American soil and claimed it fell under the authority of the Patriot Act would that be ok?
We have a process in this country and we have laws. Labeling a "crime" Top Secret and giving it credibility by the authority of the Patriot Act is, in my opinion, criminal. Yeah I know Pres Bush started it but it's out of control and with the current administration not answering for any wrongdoing it's going to get worse.
What's that saying? Absolute power corrupts absolutely. We've seen what the IRS can do, now the NSA. I'm guessing if the same folks that run these "federal" agencies were to ask Special Operations to do something against the American people (like they did) they would not like our response.
That "line in the sand", it's already been crossed.
BrokenSwitch
06-09-2013, 14:44
How do you do that when your enemy welcomes death? And when they literally sacrifice their own children for their horrific "religious" beliefs? I don't know how you can guarantee security by killing their comrades but leaving them alive. It's contradictory to our way of life where we value each person's sanctity of life and we especially value our children's lives over some cleric's goal. They don't think like we do.
They only embrace death when it occurs on their own terms. When we (US, Israel, etc) dictate the time, place and nature of their deaths, they become decidedly less bold.
Surf n Turf
06-09-2013, 14:45
Do you think he did the right thing in the end?
Wiseman,
Right now, I’m agnostic --- Anytime someone compromises information that is that highly classified (TS/SI/NOFORN) I worry about the repercussions – sources / methods are compromised, etc.
I am not that surprised at the PRISM program, earlier versions of programs / software are discussed in open source data. I am not displeased that the “leak” has started a public outcry, and perhaps a overdue review of the boundaries for the Intelligence community.
Without knowing what “other data” might be released, I think it is premature to speculate if he did the “right” thing because it's not "the end".
SnT
Team Sergeant
06-09-2013, 14:48
They only embrace death when it occurs on their own terms. When we (US, Israel, etc) dictate the time, place and nature of their deaths, they become decidedly less bold.
LOL, isn't that the truth......
I remember hundreds of thousands of them surrendering to anyone they could after we dropped leaflets explaining to them how we were going to blow them to hell and there was nothing they could do about it, that a some "live fire demonstrations" sure changed a whole lot of minds during Desert Storm......
Surf n Turf
06-09-2013, 15:40
Interview with Edward Snowden.
SnT
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance
I sure hope that Mr. Snowden knows and understands the precise criteria that renders one drone-worthy.
Paragrouper
06-09-2013, 17:37
In 2003, he enlisted in the US army and began a training program to join the Special Forces. Invoking the same principles that he now cites to justify his leaks, he said: "I wanted to fight in the Iraq war because I felt like I had an obligation as a human being to help free people from oppression".
He recounted how his beliefs about the war's purpose were quickly dispelled. "Most of the people training us seemed pumped up about killing Arabs, not helping anyone," he said. After he broke both his legs in a training accident, he was discharged.
This young idealist seems to have trouble finding his niche in life.
It strikes me as ironic that Snowden, apparently a rabid Internet freedom advocate, is reportedly hiding out in China, of all places.
It strikes me as ironic that Snowden, apparently a rabid Internet freedom advocate, is reportedly hiding out in China, of all places.
Or that he worked for two Intel Agencies doing activities which were obviously contrary to his fundamental beliefs.
As Americans, I think our systems of checks and balances failed us on the privacy front. Though I also believe when you give your word you keep it...
What did he think he was doing? Working at Microsoft?
Scimitar
06-10-2013, 03:35
There's got to be more to this then meets the eye,
1) In the video, he makes out that he has virtually unfeted access to large amounts of highly classified information. I couldn't be further from an expert on all things intelligence, but I've heard of the compartmentalization policy as has most everyone. There has to be no way that he actually had that much access. Therefore his opinion is pretty invalid. I believe he's smart enough to know this. So he's either an idiot or there's some criminal / psycological intent here. I'm betting the latter.
2) Life in the real world, (which most sheeple have hidden from them - simply because they don't want to know) is more often about choosing the lesser of two evils then we'd like. War's a dirty game my Father always said, and we're always at war, it's only on occasion that there's no bullets flying.
3) Do we really have the full picture on the PRISM project, I think the real issue here is our loss of faith in Congress to look after our best interests. if we trusted them, we'd trust they had this beast under control.
Anyway...my point is, there's WAAAYYY more to this then we're being told, this must be true by the very definition of high level intel stuff....right?
S
mark46th
06-10-2013, 08:43
The most recent terrorist attack was carried out by U.S. citizens. If they had been thwarted because the NSA picked up the threat, would we be as outraged? The problem with these programs is after time passes, the intent of the program is forgotten, the rules are forgotten and the information is used for unintended purposes. The people who work at these agencies are smart, they recognize other possible uses for the information gathered without regard for the law, justifying the misuse by results... They are smart but have lost their moral compass.
Badger52
06-10-2013, 09:06
Do we really have the full picture on the PRISM project, I think the real issue here is our loss of faith in Congress to look after our best interests. if we trusted them, we'd trust they had this beast under control.
Sounds like a valid concern expressed in another drama....
Indeed.
Who watches the watchers?
TRLotta that going around.
:munchin
rubberneck
06-10-2013, 09:16
The most recent terrorist attack was carried out by U.S. citizens. If they had been thwarted because the NSA picked up the threat, would we be as outraged?
But they weren't. Hell the Russians even told us that the older brother had received training from extremists and we still couldn't connect all the dots and prevent the bombings.
As a young man I was taught that the intelligence agencies were forbidden by law from operating within the borders of the United States. How did we get to the point that the NSA is spying on all of us all the time? When this program first came to light under the Bush administration we were told that the collection of data on US citizens only occurred when that citizen called an international number being watched. I was uneasy with that but this program is on an entirely different level.
After the past six months I am not willing to take the assurances of our elected officials that they always act in the best interests of the public when they know no one is watching what they are doing. It simply isn't true. I am not willing to trade my privacy away in the name of a program that we have no clue if it is even effective to begin with and even if it was I still wouldn't go for it. As Ben Franklin once said, "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety".
In trying to prevent another 9/11 we've slowly destroyed the very freedoms that encouraged the attacks in the first place.
After the past six months I am not willing to take the assurances of our elected officials that they always act in the best interests of the public when they know no one is watching what they are doing. It simply isn't true.
Especially after finding out about the IRS harrassing exclusively conservative groups. I don't trust them at all.
There's got to be more to this then meets the eye,
1) In the video, he makes out that he has virtually unfeted access to large amounts of highly classified information. I couldn't be further from an expert on all things intelligence, but I've heard of the compartmentalization policy as has most everyone. There has to be no way that he actually had that much access. Therefore his opinion is pretty invalid. I believe he's smart enough to know this. So he's either an idiot or there's some criminal / psycological intent here. I'm betting the latter.
S
Just like there was no way Bradley Manning had access to all that cable content right? I want so badly to believe that this guy is making stuff up, but I read the President's speech as basically confirming what the guy is saying.
I don't know how you can collect as much as data as Prism supposedly collects and still have compartmentalization. If they are truly collecting everything on everybody they are going to need a lot of people checking it all over.
The most recent terrorist attack was carried out by U.S. citizens. If they had been thwarted because the NSA picked up the threat, would we be as outraged? The problem with these programs is after time passes, the intent of the program is forgotten, the rules are forgotten and the information is used for unintended purposes. The people who work at these agencies are smart, they recognize other possible uses for the information gathered without regard for the law, justifying the misuse by results... They are smart but have lost their moral compass.
Its an interesting point to bring up. One that is made by some of my coworkers who weren't as concerned as some people on this forum. Some of the points made by them;
Do we have any reasonable expectation of privacy on the internet/cell networks anymore between hackers/snoopers/advertisers?
What do we have to worry about if we aren't doing anything illegal?
Imagine that it prevented another attack that directly saved your family from harm wouldn't that be worth it?
My response is that I don't have any expectation that my internet communications aren't subject to tracking/monitoring, however that doesn't mean I want to give the government a rubber stamp to do whatever they want. The argument that it could possibly prevent future attacks isn't valid in my opinion. We manage just fine with our current intelligence structure as long as we actually pay attention to the intelligence and don't ignore it. Furthermore, every attack can't be prevented or anticipated. Many people have stated it already, but there is a trade off for security and safety in an open society and that is personal freedom. I'd rather have my personal freedom.
Its an interesting point to bring up. One that is made by some of my coworkers who weren't as concerned as some people on this forum. .......................
Not too many years ago most folks gave little thought about the IRS being used as a tool of the left to target those on the right.
Just how much information and what type do they have? Who has access to portions of it? Who has access to most of it?
Can one little dweeb in a back office spot pull a list of conservative political donors, cross that with internet purchases of ammo, run a crime check for outstanding parking tickets and have a SWAT team dispatched to all the unlucky homes where they have to suffer through a fine tooth comb inspection of everything in their home?
"hackers/snoopers/advertisers" can't dispatch the local LEOs to your door..
Badger52
06-10-2013, 13:50
Do we have any reasonable expectation of privacy on the internet/cell networks anymore between hackers/snoopers/advertisers?
They are missing the point; they are confusing method of communication with an abrogation of the expectation they should have.
What do we have to worry about if we aren't doing anything illegal?
Your co-workers don't get to define what that is, so how can they know if they're clean? That's a complete cop-out as a rationale; too much TV.
Imagine that it prevented another attack that directly saved your family from harm wouldn't that be worth it?
That is an unknowable thing.
My response is that I don't have any expectation that my internet communications aren't subject to tracking/monitoring, however that doesn't mean I want to give the government a rubber stamp to do whatever they want.
Is opening your mail ok?
Some thoughts keyed to above.
I'd like to know why alarm bells did not go off with a sys admin looking at document contents, that alone seems to be at odds with sop...
Do we have an expectation of privacy on the internet and cell phone? I'd say a 'reasonable' American would or should say yes, most of the time. As badger52 pointed out context is important.
100% safe? There is no such fantasy.
I'm wincing about the unknown key logger as I type this...I don't yet know about this guy Snowden...but, the government's widespread seizure and collection of electronic data - on otherwise law abiding citizens - without regard to criminal activity seems to be an obvious overreach. If the authorities lawfully identify some relevant criminal activity engaged in by a domestic US citizen...get a warrant and snoop away.
The quote highlighted below is from another article posted in another thread - but this quote (not necessarily the entire article ) seems relevant to the discussion here.
"These ethical gymnastics were not entirely unforeseeable. Obama ran as a reform candidate for the Senate in 2004, while his campaign was most likely involved in the leaking of the sealed divorce records of both his primary and general election opponents." No matter, someone leaked them...
IMO, politicians and their campaign staffs generally (of any incumbent political party - they have the access) simply cannot be trusted with personal data gathered in widespread government snooping on otherwise law abiding citizens. The temptation for campaign staff to selectively, strategically and anonymously leak information on political opponents - to derail a given opposition campaign is too great.
How much ammo and magazines did you buy online the last 5 years? Did your spouse or adult children ever experience some sensitive personal, or medical, or financial issues...etc., etc., ever post a rant or send an email that only you and the recipient knew was meant in jest...
I can just hear the Stephanie Cutters of the world spinning...on the majority of cable news networks...all 5 Sunday shows...after the anonymous, incomplete, partially accurate leak...as you run for national office.
I can't help but notice that the Boston bombing terrorists, and their families and friends, had significant incriminating electronic footprints. How safe are we really in exchange for intrusion into each and every personal electronic communication...???
I find it particulery rich that this president would support the type and extent of domestic spying programs...being publicly discussed...when the president (or his staff) has sealed Barry's own academic records.
ETA Obama on the issue in 2007 at link below.
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=WAQlsS9diBs&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DWAQlsS9diBs
ddoering
06-10-2013, 14:40
What do we have to worry about if we aren't doing anything illegal?
What is legal today may be illegal tomorrow and the gatherers make those calls. I have a problem with that.
The difference between Obama and Putin is rapidly disappearing. It is down to the quality of suits imo.
GratefulCitizen
06-10-2013, 14:44
The irony of collecting everything everyone ever does, types, or says through electronic devices is that it effectively gives everyone more privacy because we're all hidden in the crowd.
Not enough watchers.
If someone wants true privacy, they can communicate in person.
Snooping has become so dependent on information technology that face-to-face communication is likely to be very secure.
Perhaps we would solve more crimes if we just started kicking in all the doors until we catch someone engaged in something illegal.
If we make every baby give DNA sample at birth they might help solve some future crime, too.
Cameras in every home should reduce domestic violence.
Or, how 'bout we just start in the electronic realm and capture, categorize, analyze and save every electronic communication, picture, email, web post, text, phone call, tweet, every electronic record or file...every GPS feed, every purchase, every web site ever visited, every movie ever viewed, every book ever read, every time the Iphone says that you were speeding...every electronic file that we can get our hands on...etc., etc., for every citizen in the USA - forever.
I'm sure that no one could spin a narrative with all that data...
To hell with the 4 Amendment.
IMO, nothing to hide...nothing to fear is a myth...especially with big government bureaucrats...who just might think differently than you.
This Snowden incident may have initiated a discussion/debate that needs to occur.
The irony of collecting everything everyone ever does, types, or says through electronic devices is that it effectively gives everyone more privacy because we're all hidden in the crowd.
Not enough watchers.
If someone wants true privacy, they can communicate in person.
Snooping has become so dependent on information technology that face-to-face communication is likely to be very secure.
Well not really, but it is a nice thought...
One of many examples: Devices used in the 80's which are much more advanced today, that can listen from a distance and though say windows.
Time to break out the Cone of Silence :D
I agree with all the reponses given to my post. They are in fact very close to the arguments that I posed to said co-workers. We are in the realm of the slippery slope in my opinion. We should be paying even closer attention to the drone program. While people can make arguments on each side regarding the use of the Patriot Act, the development and employment of the drone program to its current state has been championed by the Obama administration. While I am not against killing bad guys, when you start talking American citizens I am wary of who is determing who the bad guy is. Drone strikes on American citizens in other countries too easily turns into drone strikes on non-citizens in our country to drone strikes on American citizens in our country. Seems far fetched, but this NSA program is just the latest in a series of issues that makes me worry about where we are headed.
Snowden's background is interesting.
He seems to have never finished High School(and didn't earn his GED either?), but got a job working security for OGA.
With the security job being after he reportedly joined the Army and attempted "Special Forces" training where he reportedly broke both legs and separated from service.
I wonder what's known/remembered of him during his time in service?
I'm a fan of people stepping up and whistle blowing in an appropriate manner, especially when it comes to Constitutional abuse.
But what's appropriate? It's a dangerous journey with heaps of wrong paths, and not too many right ones.
Even if Snowden is genuinely trying to do the right thing about legitimate abuse that needs to be corrected, he could be making some horrific mistakes.
And then there's the bit where Snowden could actually be directly involved in espionage activity for a foreign power and this effort is just public justification with the purpose of further increasing the damage.
But what scares me the most is that abuse of power(real of perceived) by the US improves the chances of foreign intelligence making a successful pitch to those susceptible to committing treason over ideology.
Which is on top of the increased risk of foreign intelligence making a successful pitch to the increasing numbers of folks suffering financial stress in recent years.
IMO, unlawful, physical surveillance as well as sweeping electronic surveillance can create a chilling effect on many lawful activities such as free speech, free association, and other First Amendment rights essential for a vibrant democratic republic.
Paragrouper
06-10-2013, 15:53
Many people have stated it already, but there is a trade off for security and safety in an open society and that is personal freedom. I'd rather have my personal freedom.
Too bad your coworkers can't see that. If that is the prevailing opinion in America, we may soon learn the difference between a citizen and a subject.
Too bad your coworkers can't see that. If that is the prevailing opinion in America, we may soon learn the difference between a citizen and a subject.
It baffles the mind that many 'choose' to avoid reality and understand what makes us an exceptional country; the documents which our Founding Fathers labored to create inclusive....
(Framers sounds like a progressive word to me)
What is legal today may be illegal tomorrow and the gatherers make those calls. I have a problem with that.
The difference between Obama and Putin is rapidly disappearing. It is down to the quality of suits imo.
I was thinking along the same lines, except for: "What is legal today may be selectively illegal tomorrow and the gatherers make those calls."
As for Putin and Obama - spot on.
Chris Cram
06-10-2013, 16:47
The irony of collecting everything everyone ever does, types, or says through electronic devices is that it effectively gives everyone more privacy because we're all hidden in the crowd.
Not enough watchers.
GratefulCitizen -
Let’s say that we have a process that collects everything and stores it into a data warehouse.
Now let’s say we have another process that does real time monitoring, looking for key words, events or activities.
The monitoring process acquires available source data and triggers some other process depending on the trigger.
These other processes take that minimal initial data set, and starts collecting additional data from some pre-assembled subset of the data warehouse.
You are hidden in the crowd as long as you (and all of your relations) do nothing that would attract attention. Now what is it that will attract attention?
... Time to break out the Cone of Silence :D
BadShot - We need Faraday Cages for our cell phones… and when you go to dinner with friends, and you set you phones together on the table… know that they are communicating with each other. :D
Very interesting article:
Using Metadata to find Paul Revere
http://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metadata-to-find-paul-revere/
Chris Cram
06-10-2013, 17:15
Very interesting article:
Using Metadata to find Paul Revere
http://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metadata-to-find-paul-revere/
Agreed :cool:
Very interesting article:
Using Metadata to find Paul Revere
http://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metadata-to-find-paul-revere/
Interesting read...
"Listen my spooks and you shall hear
Of the midnight tweet of Paul Revere...";)
Snowden dissappears
http://news.yahoo.com/u-whistleblower-drops-sight-faces-legal-battle-192837160.html
Ferriday Cages are your friend - so is tape for cams and mics :D
GratefulCitizen
06-10-2013, 18:19
You are hidden in the crowd as long as you (and all of your relations) do nothing that would attract attention. Now what is it that will attract attention?
They can't get us all.
I'm still convinced these leaks are purposeful.
They mean to instill fear and the appearance of omniscience in order to maintain control.
The information is useless if you lack sufficient people to enforce your will.
Intimidation isn't a long-term effective strategy against a large population with decentralized organization.
ddoering
06-11-2013, 05:52
It baffles the mind that many 'choose' to avoid reality and understand what makes us an exceptional country; the documents which our Founding Fathers labored to create inclusive....
(Framers sounds like a progressive word to me)
What's to worry about? We have a Constitutional scholar running the country.
Trapper John
06-11-2013, 07:02
Ferriday Cages are your friend - so is tape for cams and mics :D
Unless you are referring to a containment device that is unique to Ferriday, LA, it's a Faraday cage in reference to Michael Faraday and Faraday's law relating electrical current to magnetism (mathematically expressed as one of Maxwell's equations). :p
Just trying to keep it real guys and gals. :D
Badger52
06-11-2013, 07:39
I'm still convinced these leaks are purposeful.
They mean to instill fear and the appearance of omniscience in order to maintain control.Ahh, the 3rd option beyond Snowden the Threat or Snowden the Whacko... Snowden the Stage Player.
Observe how the proxies in the press carry the gospel in the coming days; demonize & marginalize, or dismiss as being all wet. However, given the current admin's track record, they're like the little kid that - no matter what - is gonna get caught.
We should not forget, however, that in all this "score keeping" there is some seriously wrong krap going on. As QP ddoering mentioned, make your list, and check it twice for the reckoning. Lack of stones is a bi-partisan affliction.
Chris Cram
06-11-2013, 10:40
2008 Eavesdropping...
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=5987804&page=1
Despite pledges by President George W. Bush and American intelligence officials to the contrary, hundreds of US citizens overseas have been eavesdropped on as they called friends and family back home, according to two former military intercept operators who worked at the giant National Security Agency (NSA) center in Fort Gordon, Georgia.
"Hey, check this out," Faulk says he would be told, "there's good phone sex or there's some pillow talk, pull up this call, it's really funny, go check it out. It would be some colonel making pillow talk and we would say, 'Wow, this was crazy'," Faulk told ABC News.
Were they listening to calls and reading emails from Petraeus and Spitzer ?
Badger52
06-11-2013, 11:04
2008 Eavesdropping...
The chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Jay Rockefeller (D-WV), called the allegations "extremely disturbing" and said the committee has begun its own examination.
"We have requested all relevant information from the Bush Administration," Rockefeller said Thursday. "The Committee will take whatever action is necessary." I see congress was all over it; I feel so much better now.
Unless you are referring to a containment device that is unique to Ferriday, LA, it's a Faraday cage in reference to Michael Faraday and Faraday's law relating electrical current to magnetism (mathematically expressed as one of Maxwell's equations). :p
Just trying to keep it real guys and gals. :D
That explains why all those bolts are stuck to my damn phone :D
Trapper John
06-11-2013, 13:30
That explains why all those bolts are stuck to my damn phone :D
LMAOROF!!! :D:D Thanks, I needed that. Things were getting just too serious on my end. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0JEWjETVPwo
Listen to the CINC. between :15 and :30 is the best part.
.... "We're going to have some problems here".
Sound like self fulfilling prophecy
Oldschool45B
06-11-2013, 14:52
I read through the thread, maybe I missed it. But supposedly, he is a Q course drop out. Can anyone confirm this?
LMAOROF!!! :D:D Thanks, I needed that. Things were getting just too serious on my end. ;)
Glad to hear it...you do noble work.
Snaquebite
06-11-2013, 15:35
I read through the thread, maybe I missed it. But supposedly, he is a Q course drop out. Can anyone confirm this?
Not a drop out nor did he ever go through SFAS. Snowden’s Army career lasted only five months, from May to September 2004, according to the Army.
He enlisted as a Special Forces recruit in the Army Reserve but had not completed any SF training. Career ended when he supposedly broke both legs in a training accident.
Pericles
06-11-2013, 15:40
The most recent terrorist attack was carried out by U.S. citizens. If they had been thwarted because the NSA picked up the threat, would we be as outraged? The problem with these programs is after time passes, the intent of the program is forgotten, the rules are forgotten and the information is used for unintended purposes. The people who work at these agencies are smart, they recognize other possible uses for the information gathered without regard for the law, justifying the misuse by results... They are smart but have lost their moral compass.
Isn't the point here that they were collecting on US citizens? That makes the Boston bomb even more damning in my view - violating the rights of US citizen's didn't ID a real threat.
Oldschool45B
06-11-2013, 16:14
Thanks Snaque.
Ya know the thing that nobody has been able to give me an answer to on some of the other boards where they are decrying him, what do you do when the system is so entrenched in corruption that going to the IG or Congressional oversight would get you jailed or killed, and not get the word out? It amazes me that many people in the military and government say he still should have gone through channels. Sure, go to the IG. Not like we have not seen plenty of evidence that doing so under this administration would result in exactly jack shit getting done.
I am further dismayed that so many people in those same circles simply refuse to believe that this administration is so corrupt and openly anti-American. I believe that this administration has done more to destroy personal freedoms and the America I was raised to believe in than any other administration in history. We have not seen a usurpation and abuse of power like this since Europe in the mid 1930's.
And not to say that they are the same thing, but when people said this is treasonous, I reminded them that the Founding Fathers were too when they signed the Declaration of Independence. Everyone must do what they believe is morally correct. And I for one find it reprehensible that my own government is using my information to build a target profile on me just like we do terrorists overseas.
Isn't the point here that they were collecting on US citizens? That makes the Boston bomb even more damning in my view - violating the rights of US citizen's didn't ID a real threat.
Yes, and their software did not detect said ....head returning to U.S. because of a spelling error...something that could of likely been prevented by thoughtful design and an API or a Google in house product.
Paragrouper
06-11-2013, 17:34
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0JEWjETVPwo
Listen to the CINC. between :15 and :30 is the best part.
.... "We're going to have some problems here".
Sound like self fulfilling prophecy
Don't skip over the funniest part though; at 0.01
"trust me"
friggin hilarious
ddoering
06-11-2013, 20:09
Well, the O man has even managed to piss off Micheal Moore. He better be scared now.:munchin
I bet Bush is saying,"How do you like me now? I don't look so bad, do I?"
Well, the O man has even managed to piss off Micheal Moore. He better be scared now.:munchin
I bet Bush is saying,"How do you like me now? I don't look so bad, do I?"
Just imagine when the next Repub is elected POTUS...we are gonna have a shit load of fun busting on libs and hippies! "Well when under Obama...."
ACLU files suit against the NSA’s phone records program alleging constitutional infringement.
Filed by the ACLU June 11, 2013.
That didn't take long.
<snip>
"This lawsuit challenges the government’s dragnet acquisition of Plaintiffs’ telephone records under Section 215 of the Patriot Act, 50 U.S.C. § 1861.1 In response to information published by the media, the government has acknowledged that it is relying on Section 215 to collect “metadata” about every phone call made or received by residents of the United States. The practice is akin to snatching every American’s address book—with annotations detailing whom we spoke to, when we talked, for how long, and from where. It gives the government a comprehensive record of our associations and public movements, revealing a wealth of detail about our familial, political, professional, religious, and intimate associations."
http://www.scribd.com/document_downloads/direct/147212931?extension=pdf&ft=1371037217<=1371040827&source=embed&uahk=qH1c64rgEtKt6AogCYnHQfZEZx0
Pericles
06-12-2013, 10:22
Yes, and their software did not detect said ....head returning to U.S. because of a spelling error...something that could of likely been prevented by thoughtful design and an API or a Google in house product.
Not to mention that real bad guy TTPs have already evolved to minimize electronic profile by use of messenger with USB drives, written notes, leadership without cell phones etc.
At best, this might point to some semi competent clowns, IF the analysis is good.
Not to mention that real bad guy TTPs have already evolved to minimize electronic profile by use of messenger with USB drives, written notes, leadership without cell phones etc.
At best, this might point to some semi competent clowns, IF the analysis is good.
Yes and it's not like they do not use throw away phones either.
If the point of entry/exit systems were designed properly a lot of oversights could be avoided including an Intel employee or contractor exiting the country without notifying the proper department. The later meaning deny exit until verified.
Almost like common sense...
Playing devils advocate, there are a big number of those whom came here on student visas from Asia (Central and otherwise) that promptly disappeared. Not a warming thought.
ddoering
06-12-2013, 13:20
I wonder if the people that are fine with this type of collection "because they have nothing to hide" would feel the same if periodically some officers would drop on by for a walk thru "just to check things out?" Perhaps even have an interview with their kids to "see how things are."
Badger52
06-12-2013, 13:47
I wonder if the people that are fine with this type of collection "because they have nothing to hide" would feel the same if periodically some officers would drop on by for a walk thru "just to check things out?" Perhaps even have an interview with their kids to "see how things are."Sure, just to be fair; like a probation officer would treat their "client." Seems reasonable.
The hypocrisy is nauseating.
FLASHBACK: Biden Says President, VP Cannot Be Trusted to Spy on Phone Calls
Fox News Insider
JUN 12 2013
http://foxnewsinsider.com/2013/06/12/video-senator-joe-biden-says-you-cant-trust-government-spy-phone-calls
ETA shorter vid below < 1 minute
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=LMfhC4CwUnM&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DLMfhC4CwUnM
They need to listen to my conversations. Hopefully, they'll learn something.
I've about had it with all this sneaky liberace bullshit.
Scimitar
06-12-2013, 20:38
Here's an interesting argument that came up yesterday.
- I don't see what's wrong with the NSA etc data mining calls and such and looking for patterns, they still have to get a warrant if they actually see a pattern and want to dig deeper and actually listen and read emails and such, and invade my privacy. I mean, it's like a cop walking along the beat. If he sees something funny, he investigates, if there's probable cause he acts, if there's no immediate danger he has to go get a warrant.
- This is true, but to continue your analogy, PRISM is like an under cover LEO, on every street corner, watching everything you do, and this LEO has no conscience because he's a computer, and there is the risk of one small group controlling them all.......Now how do you feel about it......
S
The hypocrisy is nauseating.
FLASHBACK: Biden Says President, VP Cannot Be Trusted to Spy on Phone Calls
Fox News Insider
JUN 12 2013
http://foxnewsinsider.com/2013/06/12/video-senator-joe-biden-says-you-cant-trust-government-spy-phone-calls
ETA shorter vid below < 1 minute
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=LMfhC4CwUnM&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DLMfhC4CwUnM
The hypocrisy is getting too thick to breathe.
Is it Still 1984?
By J.T. Hatter
American Thinker
June 14, 2013
Which of the latest Obama scandals annoys you the most? Me, I haven't gotten over Obamacare yet. Or the Sandy Hook attack on the Second Amendment. But lately my money's on the Big Brother scandal. That bothers me a lot. It's 2013 and we're sliding back to 1984. Big Brother Obama is watching you. But all of the scandals share a common element. They show the pattern -- the signature -- of how this administration operates. And I wonder how many people have picked up on it yet.
"Nobody is listening to your telephone calls. That's not what this program's about."
Obama told us not to worry about government snooping into every aspect of our private lives. But then we find out there's a great deal to worry about, because Big Brother is monitoring the mail, email, phone calls, business transactions, and web use of every single citizen in the Land of Liberty. We discover that the NSA PRISM program monitors and records communications and user data from Apple, Google, Yahoo!, Facebook, Microsoft, Skype, Gmail, Hotmail, AOL, YouTube, and about fifty other companies. We learned that "They quite literally can watch your ideas form as you type." Big Brother is watching you. Right now. Under Obama, 2013 is 1984.
We live in a nation whose Supreme Court ruled that abortion is Constitutionally protected because women have a right to privacy. If privacy is so important that children can be legally killed to protect it, then how in the world can the Obama administration deprive us of all that we have?
Obama mandated that the IRS administer some of the most important elements of ObamaCare. The IRS will punish us if we do not comply. ObamaCare isn't about health care. It's about government control. It's about instituting socialism. When Senator Cornyn discovered that the IRS official in charge of the political targeting of patriotic nonprofits, Sarah Hall Ingram, was now responsible for administering IRS control over ObamaCare, he said, "Now more than ever, we need to prevent the IRS from having any role in Americans' health carre. I do not support Obamacare, and after the events of last week, I cannot support giving the IRS any more responsibility or taxpayer dollars to implement a broken law."
Obama told Ohio State University graduates to "reject these voices" that warn of government encroachment on personal privacy, civil liberties and freedom. Obama tells us to trust him. Everything will be okay.
Trust Obama?
He recently said, "You know, when I came into this office, I made two commitments that are more than any commitment I make: number one, to keep the American people safe; and number two, to uphold the Constitution. And that includes what I consider to be a constitutional right to privacy and an observance of civil liberties."
Paul Jacob of Townhall.com found the statement to be as laughable as most of us do. "You don't trust President Barack Obama?" he said in his article, "Be advised: President Obama finds "your lack of faith disturbing." Darth Vader would be proud. This Orwellian doublespeak is worthy of the man who singlehandedly constitutes the greatest threat ever to the American people's freedom, liberty, and Constitutional rights.
The common element to all these scandals is the administration's constant, deliberate, and arrogant pattern of deception. The goal? Clearly it is to undermine the Constitution and the rule of law to advance his socialist agenda.
From the attack on the First Amendment via Associated Press wiretaps and criminal conspiracy charges against Fox reporter James Rosen, to the Sandy Hook child massacre attack on the Second Amendment, we now have Obama and his progressive ilk going after every American's Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights to protection against unreasonable search and seizure and due process. The cover ruse for these attacks is Islamic terrorism. Or as the administration terms it: man-caused disasters. Trust Obama?
In the same speech, Obama brought up the very question his policies and actions have raised in the minds of all clear-headed Americans,
"If people can't trust not only the executive branch, but also don't trust Congress and don't trust federal judges to make sure we're abiding by the Constitution, due process, and rule of law, then we're going to have some problems here."
It is a question of trust. At this point few Americans trust their government and many fear it. This administration has established a pattern of deception aimed at undermining the Constitution and rule of law. How can there be trust when we are surrounded by so much deception?
Yes, we're going to have some problems here.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/06/is_it_still_1984.html#ixzz2WCGmUnBC
JT Hatter is the author of Lost in Zombieland: The Rise of President Zero, a political satire on the Obama administration. JT can be reached at jt@jthatter.com.
Stiletto11
06-14-2013, 08:26
How about if we compare it to sex: We aren't actually watching but we know where, when, what position, what you like and if you are faking orgasm. If you're not hiding anything then it should be ok, right? Everyone has sex right so what's the problem? ;)Think they would go along with it?
I do remember still...One line this president used when he campaigned over 4 years ago.
"Fundamentally transforming America". Well?
http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/10/barack_obama_and_the_fundamental_transformation_of _america.html
:munchin
In nefarious hands resources like this could turn the tide of an election.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4nARsYRMQKE#at=215
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4nARsYRMQKE#at=215
A very interesting discussion of DNI's use of lanaguage when he recently "test-a-lied" before Congress.
Thanks for posting.
Just imagine tying it in with Obama Care and Bloombturds nanny edicts. On the small side they could track purchases that could in real time affect how you are taxed and/or what future medical services are available to you.
This insanity has no bounds in the hands of mad men.
Just imagine tying it in with Obama Care and Bloombturds nanny edicts. On the small side they could track purchases that could in real time affect how you are taxed and/or what future medical services are available to you.
This insanity has no bounds in the hands of mad men.
Time to go off grid - this may occur voluntarily or involuntarily - I HATE those damn "smart" meters.
Badger52
06-14-2013, 15:01
This insanity has no bounds in the hands of mad men.
CBS confirms Sharyl Attkisson's computer breached multiple times. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2013/06/14/cbs-news-confirms-multiple-breaches-of-sharyl-attkissons-computer/)
I'm so confused.
ATF?
FBI for DoJ-Actual?
DoS?
IRS?
EPA?
NY Mets?
I need to go back to the front entrance & get a program with a scorecard.
:confused:
CBS confirms Sharyl Attkisson's computer breached multiple times. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2013/06/14/cbs-news-confirms-multiple-breaches-of-sharyl-attkissons-computer/)
I'm so confused.
ATF?
FBI for DoJ-Actual?
DoS?
IRS?
EPA?
NY Mets?
I need to go back to the front entrance & get a program with a scorecard.
:confused:
“After we win this election, it’s our turn. Payback time.”
-Valerie Jarret..
Since she was mentioned by name...although the vid at the link below has been posted before - it seems fitting...
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwahotPj3XU&feature=related
On Prism, partisanship and propaganda
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/14/nsa-partisanship-propaganda-prism
Long but very interesting read.
"I haven't been able to write this week here because I've been participating in the debate over the fallout from last week's NSA stories, and because we are very busy working on and writing the next series of stories that will begin appearing very shortly. I did, though, want to note a few points, and particularly highlight what Democratic Rep. Loretta Sanchez said after Congress on Wednesday was given a classified briefing by NSA officials on the agency's previously secret surveillance activities:..........................."
Badger52
06-15-2013, 08:09
On Prism, partisanship and propaganda
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/14/nsa-partisanship-propaganda-prism
Long but very interesting read.
"I haven't been able to write this week here because I've been participating in the debate over the fallout from last week's NSA stories, and because we are very busy working on and writing the next series of stories that will begin appearing very shortly. I did, though, want to note a few points, and particularly highlight what Democratic Rep. Loretta Sanchez said after Congress on Wednesday was given a classified briefing by NSA officials on the agency's previously secret surveillance activities:..........................."
That is a fine piece, so people better gird up their attention span & check it out. It would seem (not unusual) that there are more flares being popped from without than from the lackeys here ashore.
That is a fine piece, so people better gird up their attention span & check it out. It would seem (not unusual) that there are more flares being popped from without than from the lackeys here ashore.
Blame fear, complacency and lassitude.
About a week ago we heard this:
Zuckerberg: "Facebook is not and has never been part of any program to give the US or any other government direct access to our servers."
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-06-08/how-americas-internet-companies-are-quietly-handing-over-your-data-uncle-sam
Snip June 14, 2013
By Ted Ullyot, Facebook General Counsel
Over the last week, in press statements as well as Mark’s post last Friday, we’ve repeatedly called for governments worldwide to be willing to provide more details about programs aimed at keeping the public safe. We’ve also urged them to allow companies to divulge appropriate information about government orders and requests that we receive, in a manner that does not compromise legitimate security concerns.
http://newsroom.fb.com/News/636/Facebook-Releases-Data-Including-All-National-Security-Requests
Like Facebook earlier, Microsoft has revealed some details about the number of government requests for data that it receives, and is for the first time including national security requests in the total count. Also similar to Facebook, Microsoft says the requests cover a tiny fraction of the accounts it serves, with between 6,000 and 7,000 criminal and national security requests covering between 31,000 and 32,000 accounts received over the last six months.
http://www.engadget.com/2013/06/14/microsoft-reveals-government-data-requests-stats-including-nati/
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-06-15/internet-companies-begin-revealing-extent-government-snooping
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-06-12/ibm-or-amazon-whom-will-cia-choose
Team Sergeant
06-15-2013, 12:46
So I own a billion dollar internet social media website or I am a corp that owns a multibillion dollar search engine, or I own a multibillion dollar telephone company. I have 100's of millions users and am making millions an hour in advertising/sales/user revenue.
The US Government (NSA,FBI, DEA, CIA, TSA, DHS, et al) contacts our legal department and demands all of our data on all of our users. This demand is "secret" and we're not even allowed to discuss or divulge it to our users or our advertisers under the threat of serious legal action and or prison time.
My legal department presents this "Government Data Demand" to our corporate board in a "secret" meeting.
Our decision concerning handing over the data is simple;
1st it "secret" so our users and advertisers will never find out. And even if they do we can point the finger at the US Government.
2nd If we fight we actually risk a very lengthy and very costly legal battle with the US Government.
3rd, Win Win for us, we hand over without even a whimper terabytes of data demanded by the US Government. Total cost $220 for three terabyte hard drives handed over to the US Government.
Trust me there isn't a billion dollar corporation out there that is going to spend millions in a fight for your "rights". They are engaged in the same operation that the US Government is doing secretly, data mining. Every day they sell your data to thousands of businesses all over the world, so a demand for the same data from the US Government is not a problem.
Keep posting at Facebook, every key stroke is being archived and sent to the US Government. And those secret FB Groups are not secret, but it sounds cool doesn't it.......
Hay hay hay ...... Do Not throw us in with those other idiots. We have never been given the secret hand shake. We have to do a court order for every thing we want. We at not the FBI:eek:
Maybe we'll see a resurgence in old fashioned means of communication....smoke signals, lost languages, carrier pigeon, face to face, etc.
Team Sergeant
06-15-2013, 15:54
Maybe we'll see a resurgence in old fashioned means of communication....smoke signals, lost languages, carrier pigeon, face to face, etc.
I can't wait for the kinetic communications to start.....:munchin
GratefulCitizen
06-15-2013, 23:42
Maybe we'll see a resurgence in old fashioned means of communication....smoke signals, lost languages, carrier pigeon, face to face, etc.
Wonder how much luck they'll have deciphering the calls from inside the Navajo Nation.
:D
I think the biggest thing that bugs me is "Who has access to the information?"
That's a lot of information that smart IT guys can wire & rewire to put together all kinds of links and trends.
Not only is there some deep pockets out there willing to pay for it - we've seen from the IRS debacle there are partisan hacks at all levels willing to use such information for political ends.
Badger52
06-16-2013, 05:50
Partnership indeed.
It's not yet to an official "furor" yet (that seems to take the civil Brits a bit of time to do publicly), but the growing coverage regarding their GCHQ's cooperative arrangement & relationship to PRISM - example here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10106507/GCHQ-has-been-accessing-intelligence-through-internet-firms.html) - is still playing things like this story line: (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2013/jun/09/data-snooping-law-abiding-citizens-nothing-fear-hague-video)
The foreign secretary, William Hague, says reports that GCHQ are gathering intelligence from phones and online sites should not concern people who have nothing to hide.
Seems like I've heard that before, so kudos! They've got their talking points down better than the kluge handling Benghazi.
:rolleyes:
Trapper John
06-16-2013, 07:24
On Prism, partisanship and propaganda
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/14/nsa-partisanship-propaganda-prism
Long but very interesting read.
"I haven't been able to write this week here because I've been participating in the debate over the fallout from last week's NSA stories, and because we are very busy working on and writing the next series of stories that will begin appearing very shortly. I did, though, want to note a few points, and particularly highlight what Democratic Rep. Loretta Sanchez said after Congress on Wednesday was given a classified briefing by NSA officials on the agency's previously secret surveillance activities:..........................."
Interesting read, but misses the larger issue and the point IMO. The issue is not whether NSA and PRISM is or has been "spying" on us, it is not whether Snowden is a "hero" or a "traitor", nor is it whether the "debate" is being politicized.
The issue as I see it is how do we manage the information technology revolution and not allow it to control us. Every technological advancement has inherent within in it the ability to be used for good or evil (eg, nuclear technology).
I see the capabilities of PRISM as necessary considering the world today. The potential for abuse of such capabilities is obvious. The current Administration has shown its hand with the recent revelations coming out of DoJ, IRS, NSA abuses, and the profiling of voters with "secret" databases during the elections. That latter point also reveals the real purpose of "Obama phones". Nor do I hold out any naive illusion that the other Party, if it were in power, wouldn't be doing the same thing.
We live in a not so brave new world. The institution of government has evolved to the point where priority one is protection of the institution of government itself. To do that 300+ must be manipulated and controlled. It matters not what political party is in power - both sides are derived from the same political class and once in power are going to be concerned with priority one. Information technology is the primary tool for accomplishing that end.
So if you accept this premise, the question is what can we do about it? (A kinetic solution won't work no matter how much that appeals to me TS. :D ) We will not be able to dismantle the permanent political class, or repeal the 16th Amendment, or impose term limits, or pass a balanced budget amendment all of which are necessary IMO. That ship sailed long ago.
Fundamental truths are our most powerful weapon and chief among those truths is the sanctity of the individual right to self-determination. We are in fact endowed by our creator (no matter how you define "creator") with certain inalienable rights. But with those rights comes personal responsibility. We need to keep this truth alive in our souls, to nurture it, to speak it whenever and wherever possible, and pass it on to generations that follow us. We need to use the information technology that is oppressing us toward that end. One day, a day of reckoning will come and we need to be prepared.
Nous Defions
Fundamental truths are our most powerful weapon and chief among those truths is the sanctity of the individual right to self-determination.
Nous Defions
So true.
That sanctity is being bred, educated and pressured away by progressive liberals.
We've got 60's radicals running the Country, now.
One day, a day of reckoning will come and we need to be prepared.
That is something I would bank on, it is just a matter of when and by what means.....and whether or not I get to watch it climax from a chair with a cooler of cold ones.
That is something I would bank on, it is just a matter of when and by what means.....and whether or not I get to watch it climax from a chair with a cooler of cold ones.
You really think you'll have 'cold ones' in that FEMA camp?
You really think you'll have 'cold ones' in that FEMA camp?
lol Made my weekend.
(Although, you don't have to worry about paslode.);)
You really think you'll have 'cold ones' in that FEMA camp?
Windows of opportunity, a few in the BOB, a hidden stash and a secluded ice cold spring.
1. From what I have seen up to this point, those in FEMA camps go there willingly. So my guess is initially the authorities would be busy putting on a good show with a complacent herd of the needy and have less time to deal with the few strays.
2. If and when chaos ensues, under this distraction you can likely stray off if you stay off the commonly traveled routes.
3. Carry barter items for potential payoffs during your journey.
Be Prepared! :D
:D
Be Prepared! :D
That's so gay. :D
:D
That's so gay. :D
HAHAHAHA
GratefulCitizen
06-16-2013, 11:26
The problem with centralized control is that they're outnumbered.
Collective intelligence and human creativity find a way.
If someone really wants privacy, there are options.
Onion routing and Deadbolt security with cash-paid Internet cafes as end points would be difficult to counter.
As economies of scale take hold, these things become more common.
Anyone remember the fit thrown (ITAR mess, Clipper chips) when PGP spread in the 90s?
http://www.onion-router.net/
http://www.rune.sg/index.php/products-solutions/products/deadbolt
ddoering
06-16-2013, 16:17
The problem with centralized control is that they're outnumbered.
Collective intelligence and human creativity find a way.
If someone really wants privacy, there are options.
Onion routing and Deadbolt security with cash-paid Internet cafes as end points would be difficult to counter.
As economies of scale take hold, these things become more common.
Anyone remember the fit thrown (ITAR mess, Clipper chips) when PGP spread in the 90s?
http://www.onion-router.net/
http://www.rune.sg/index.php/products-solutions/products/deadbolt
Unless they have been compelled to provide everything to the NSA.....
It would appear they are NOT just collecting metadata...
National Security Agency has acknowledged in a new classified briefing that it does not need court authorization to listen to domestic phone calls, a participant said
Agency discloses in secret Capitol Hill briefing that thousands of analysts can listen to domestic phone calls. That authorization appears to extend to e-mail and text messages too.
Link:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57589495-38/nsa-spying-flap-extends-to-contents-of-u.s-phone-calls/
What a surprise
Edit Add: Because of these developments I actually discussed making an easy (and advanced) email website which provided aes and RSA auto/manual encryption using opensource with a few Linux developers for U.S. users only. Conclusion: Would need too many lawyers - pretty sad. Surmised reason Google hasn't done it already as well.
Badger52
06-17-2013, 06:04
The rhetoric from the WH gatekeeper (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/06/16/denis-mcdonough-obama-does-not-feel-americans-privacy-has-been-violated/)would be amusing under other circumstances.
(WH Chief of Staff) “I saw the Bart Gellman story, and he’s obviously worked on this over the course of the last couple of weeks pretty aggressively,” McDonough said. “I will say that much of what he was reporting on was a draft inspector general report about a program that was suspended now several years ago because of the way we saw its usefulness.”
I thought that line was already used about Treadstone.
Edit to add: Interview with 3 former "snowdens" who've done their part from within the belly of the beast.
LINK here. (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/16/snowden-whistleblower-nsa-officials-roundtable/2428809/)
From article above...
"...a Leviathan surveillance state and much of it is in violation of the fundamental basis for our own country..."
Another quote from a different article defending the program at link below...which essentially tells us that millions of phone records are gathered daily...in just one of the programs.
"Last year, fewer than 300 phone numbers were checked against the database of millions of U.S. phone records gathered daily by the NSA in one of the programs..."
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57589502/officials-nsa-programs-broke-terror-plots-in-20-nations/
Badger52
06-17-2013, 11:01
I couldn't resist.
OS-1776 has been on-line for some time now and proven itself to be both functionally adaptable and unusually durable - so is it really time for a "REBOOT" as some are clamoring to happen?
Richard
Badger52
06-17-2013, 12:52
OS-1776 has been on-line for some time now and proven itself to be both functionally adaptable and unusually durable - so is it really time for a "REBOOT" as some are clamoring to happen?
RichardUsing that analogy sir, a "reboot" doesn't necessarily fix things. There are some persistent applications that need to be brought up in task manager and terminated without giving them the choice to shutdown IAW their own timeline because they never will. And then a real forensic cleansing to insure the de-install works and there aren't any ghost-files hanging around. Unfortunately, no one ever wants the outage to occur on their shift.
:rolleyes:
Using that analogy sir, a "reboot" doesn't necessarily fix things. There are some persistent applications that need to be brought up in task manager and terminated without giving them the choice to shutdown IAW their own timeline because they never will. And then a real forensic cleansing to insure the de-install works and there aren't any ghost-files hanging around. Unfortunately, no one ever wants the outage to occur on their shift.
:rolleyes:
Huk, if they're using Windows for processing your privacy is safe and we're f..ked ;)
ddoering
06-17-2013, 19:54
Perhaps classaction lawsuits against the companies for violation of their privacy policies. Best case is they are compelled to show what the feds made them do. Worst case is they become reluctent to help the feds.
Badger52
06-17-2013, 20:06
Huk, if they're using Windows for processing your privacy is safe and we're f..ked ;)Yeah, roger, but it was an analogy.
Yeah, roger, but it was an analogy.
I know you're an IT guy, just like taking shots at ms whenever the chance presents itself.
Thought it was funny too...
This could be problematic...
Richard
Russ Tice, Bush-Era Whistleblower, Claims NSA Ordered Wiretap Of Barack Obama In 2004
HuffPo, 20 Jun 2013
Russ Tice, a former intelligence analyst who in 2005 blew the whistle on what he alleged was massive unconstitutional domestic spying across multiple agencies, claimed Wednesday that the NSA had ordered wiretaps on phones connected to then-Senate candidate Barack Obama in 2004.
Speaking on "The Boiling Frogs Show," Tice claimed the intelligence community had ordered surveillance on a wide range of groups and individuals, including high-ranking military officials, lawmakers and diplomats.
"Here's the big one ... this was in summer of 2004, one of the papers that I held in my hand was to wiretap a bunch of numbers associated with a 40-something-year-old wannabe senator for Illinois," he said. "You wouldn't happen to know where that guy lives right now would you? It's a big white house in Washington, D.C. That's who they went after, and that's the president of the United States now."
(Cont'd) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/20/russ-tice-nsa-obama_n_3473538.html
This could be problematic...
Richard
Russ Tice, Bush-Era Whistleblower, Claims NSA Ordered Wiretap Of Barack Obama In 2004
HuffPo, 20 Jun 2013
Russ Tice, a former intelligence analyst who in 2005 blew the whistle on what he alleged was massive unconstitutional domestic spying across multiple agencies, claimed Wednesday that the NSA had ordered wiretaps on phones connected to then-Senate candidate Barack Obama in 2004.
Speaking on "The Boiling Frogs Show," Tice claimed the intelligence community had ordered surveillance on a wide range of groups and individuals, including high-ranking military officials, lawmakers and diplomats.
"Here's the big one ... this was in summer of 2004, one of the papers that I held in my hand was to wiretap a bunch of numbers associated with a 40-something-year-old wannabe senator for Illinois," he said. "You wouldn't happen to know where that guy lives right now would you? It's a big white house in Washington, D.C. That's who they went after, and that's the president of the United States now."
(Cont'd) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/20/russ-tice-nsa-obama_n_3473538.html
The "Boiling Frogs" show? Really?
The "Boiling Frogs" show? Really?
CleanUpNSA.org might be a better name for it.
It the website/blog of the attractive Turkish-American former FBI Translator Sibel Edmonds who claims that:
On 1 February 2011, Edmonds published a story on her own website, adding details of events she described as taking place in April 2001. The account centered around her post-9/11 role as translator of a pre-9/11 interview during which an informant had told the FBI agents:
Bin Laden’s group is planning a massive terrorist attack in the United States. The order has been issued. They are targeting major cities, big metropolitan cities; they think four or five cities; New York City, Chicago, Washington DC, and San Francisco; possibly Los Angeles or Las Vegas. They will use airplanes to carry out the attacks. They said that some of the individuals involved in carrying this out are already in the United States. They are here in the U.S.; living among us, and I believe some in US government already know about all of this.
The agents, along with Edmonds, reported this information internally at the FBI but, according to Edmonds, no one at the bureau ever asked for follow-ups or further information prior to 9/11
In August, 2004, Edmonds founded the National Security Whistleblowers Coalition (NSWBC), which exists to assist national security whistleblowers through advocacy and reform.[31] Edmonds is also the founder and publisher of the Boiling Frogs Post, an online media site that aims to offer nonpartisan investigative journalism
The "Boiling Frogs" show? Really?
An anecdote whose premise is that if a frog is placed in boiling water, it will jump out, but if it is placed in cold water that is slowly heated, it will not perceive the danger and will be cooked to death. The story is often used as a metaphor for the inability or unwillingness of people to react to significant changes that occur gradually.
The story has been used to warn about diverse phenomena such as in the 60's about sympathy towards the Soviet Union during the Cold War, in the 80's about the impending collapse of civilization anticipated by survivalists, in the 90's about inaction in response to climate change, and lately by libertarians warning of the slow erosion of civil rights.
I'm surprised nobody's heard it before; it's commonly used out there in the blogosphere.
Richard
An anecdote whose premise is that if a frog is placed in boiling water, it will jump out, but if it is placed in cold water that is slowly heated, it will not perceive the danger and will be cooked to death. The story is often used as a metaphor for the inability or unwillingness of people to react to significant changes that occur gradually.
The story has been used to warn about diverse phenomena such as in the 60's about sympathy towards the Soviet Union during the Cold War, in the 80's about the impending collapse of civilization anticipated by survivalists, in the 90's about inaction in response to climate change, and lately by libertarians warning of the slow erosion of civil rights.
I'm surprised nobody's heard it before; it's commonly used out there in the blogosphere.
Richard
Covered in science classes and political science in the early 1970's at least ;)
An anecdote whose premise is that if a frog is placed in boiling water, it will jump out, but if it is placed in cold water that is slowly heated, it will not perceive the danger and will be cooked to death. The story is often used as a metaphor for the inability or unwillingness of people to react to significant changes that occur gradually.
The story has been used to warn about diverse phenomena such as in the 60's about sympathy towards the Soviet Union during the Cold War, in the 80's about the impending collapse of civilization anticipated by survivalists, in the 90's about inaction in response to climate change, and lately by libertarians warning of the slow erosion of civil rights.
I'm surprised nobody's heard it before; it's commonly used out there in the blogosphere.
Richard
Not the concept, the show.
lately by libertarians warning of the slow erosion of civil rights
Since Teddy Roosevelt...even though protecting wild areas was a good thing.
Cleveland understood the document's intent and purpose as well as the limitations they imposed on the fed gov.
The erosion hasn't been that slow lately in my opinion, probably why so many are now starting to get it. Probably the Progressives biggest mistake...
It looks like the Simpson’s predicted what the NSA scandal before Ed Snowden. Enjoy this clip from 2007.
http://www.break.com/video/ugc/simpsons-movie-2008-prism-lisa-talking-about-government-spyin-2460919
From the LAWFARE Blog...the answers to these questions might be interesting, to say the least.
A copy of the letter at link below.
Senators’ Letter to DNI Clapper on NSA Surveillance
By Wells Bennett
Friday, June 28, 2013 at 3:19 PM
A group of twenty-six senators yesterday wrote to DNI James Clapper, and inquired about the executive branch’s application of the USA PATRIOT ACT—chiefly, it seems, the “business records” provision set forth in Section 215 of the statute.
The missive concludes with this volley of questions:
How long has the NSA used PATRIOT Act authorities to engage in bulk collection of Americans’ records? Was this collection underway when the law was reauthorized in 2006?
Has the NSA used USA PATRIOT Act authorities to conduct bulk collection of any other types of records pertaining to Americans, beyond phone records?
Has the NSA collected or made plans to collect Americans’ cell-site location data in bulk?
Have there been any violations of the court orders permitting this bulk collection, or of the rules governing access to these records? If so, please describe these violations.
Please identify any specific examples of instances in which intelligence gained by reviewing phone records obtained through Section 215 bulk collection proved useful in thwarting a particular terrorist plot.
Please provide specific examples of instances in which useful intelligence was gained by reviewing phone records that could not have been obtained without the bulk collection authority, if such examples exist.
Please describe the employment status of all persons with conceivable access to this data, including IT professionals, and detail whether they are federal employees, civilian or military, or contractors.
http://www.lawfareblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/senate-letter-to-james-clapper.pdf
Trapper John
06-30-2013, 18:51
Here is some more fallout from Lil Eddies' wet dream.
http://weaselzippers.us/2013/06/30/eu-furious-over-reports-that-nsa-spied-on-their-offices/
The president of the European Parliament, Martin Schulz, said he was “deeply worried and shocked about the allegations of U.S. authorities spying on EU offices” made in a report published Sunday by German news weekly Der Spiegel......
Schulz said that if the allegations that the NSA bugged European Union offices were confirmed “it would be an extremely serious matter which will have a severe impact on EU-US relations.”
Here is some more fallout from Lil Eddies' wet dream.
http://weaselzippers.us/2013/06/30/eu-furious-over-reports-that-nsa-spied-on-their-offices/
One thing I've learned in life is that arrogant assholes sooner or later screw themselves very well without any intervention. Oddly, feel relieved with some empathy hoping that they have gained some wisdom and humility.
For the moment though I'm enjoying my hundred percent security and safety with a big grin :D
Trapper John
07-01-2013, 06:47
Oddly, feel relieved with some empathy hoping that they have gained some wisdom and humility.
Wouldn't want to count on that! ;)
Stay vigilant.
Nous Defions.
Trapper John
07-01-2013, 08:52
Here's another disturbing report today. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/01/us/job-title-key-to-inner-access-held-by-snowden.html?hp&_r=0
Lil Eddie may just be the most damaging spy since, well, EVER!
Interesting article containing links to relevant documents and additional discussions.
The NSA Can't Tell the Difference Between an American and a Foreigner
That's why it sucks up information on everyone.
BY SHANE HARRIS | JUNE 28, 2013
FP
The National Security Agency has said for years that its global surveillance apparatus is only aimed at foreigners, and that ordinary Americans are only captured by accident. There's only one problem with this long-standing contention, people who've worked within the system say: it's more-or-less technically impossible to keep average Americans out of the surveillance driftnet.
<snip>
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/06/27/the_nsa_cant_tell_the_difference_between_an_americ an_and_a_foreigner?page=0,0
Trapper John
07-01-2013, 09:56
Some reports circulating on Twitter that (i) Ecuador has denied Lil Eddie a passport and (ii) Putin may offer him asylum if he quits leaking.
IMO, this is just a public concession on Putin's part - posturing. I'm thinking there are serious negotiations on-going to return him to the US. Barry, is posturing too by appearing to not care. This all smells like the public side of the gamesmanship. :munchin
I wager that Lil Eddie comes home. The question is - what do we give up to get the little traitor?
I wager that Lil Eddie comes home. The question is - what do we give up to get the little traitor?
Probably way too much especially since the docs not yet released are highly Iikely to be in others hands...like a reporter/newspaper, wiki leaks, and/or an automated process...among others...
As for NSA not being able to determine whom is a citizen or not, no s...
Especially if they're using the crap called Hadoop as some have said, HPCC they might. Folks whom use high level languages for 'systems' level or hpc stuff aren't that bright to begin with (unless experimenting in certain circumstances). Don't bother commenting on how wrong the above statement is...it would be viewed as about as believable, knowledgeable, and useful as the IRS targeted progressives the same as conservatives.
With that said gonna go write an installable file system in VB :D
Trapper John
07-01-2013, 13:11
Probably way too much especially since the docs not yet released are highly Iikely to be in others hands...like a reporter/newspaper, wiki leaks, and/or an automated process...among others...
As for NSA not being able to determine whom is a citizen or not, no s...
Especially if they're using the crap called Hadoop as some have said, HPCC they might. Folks whom use high level languages for 'systems' level or hpc stuff aren't that bright to begin with (unless experimenting in certain circumstances). Don't bother commenting on how wrong the above statement is...it would be viewed as about as believable, knowledgeable, and useful as the IRS targeted progressives the same as conservatives.
With that said gonna go write an installable file system in VB :D
Anybody understand what he just said. I don't understand what he just said. :D Confessed Knuckledragger here. Translation please. ;)
Irishsquid
07-01-2013, 13:15
With that said gonna go write an installable file system in VB :D
That makes my brain hurt. I'm an assembly coder, and have steadfastly refused to learn a high-level language for years now...and my boss is pushing me to learn something for scripting, so it looks like python it is...
That makes my brain hurt. I'm an assembly coder, and have steadfastly refused to learn a high-level language for years now...and my boss is pushing me to learn something for scripting, so it looks like python it is...
Nice, good choice. Not a Python guy but I know it does good stuff. Add: It's all over Linux. VB for an ifs would be a train wreck...
Trapper John, hoping someone else will help with your question but fundamentally those things are the platforms for Big Data that provide data crunching split between many computers, with the results then combined for hopefully useful information. Just think of it as ten people picking though papers and organizing/counting them, then handing to a guy who then combines and totals the results...magnified thousands of times.
Surf n Turf
07-01-2013, 15:22
I'm an assembly coder
I thought the last assembler coder died before the pilgrims landed in 1620. :D
SnT
uberkamper
07-01-2013, 15:34
Thoughts on Meta Data
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o2djiZOxyA&feature=share&list=UUaGoVAB64Ojh3JU_VPis8ig
my 1st post, hope I did this correctly...
There you go again...
:munchin
Thoughts on Meta Data
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o2djiZOxyA&feature=share&list=UUaGoVAB64Ojh3JU_VPis8ig
my 1st post, hope I did this correctly...
If you didn't jump the gun and you read all the 'stickys' you should be GTG......if not you will be advised shortly :D
dollarbill
07-01-2013, 18:41
Just another case of where "We The People" has been removed from the Preamble. 4th Amendment rights can be fit to who ever reads them and moldedd to fit there interpretations. We are in an age to where a group of Administrators will deside on what's best for the majority. All the phone calls, emails, ect. are absolutely useless. IMO they are acting well outside the Constitution,but yet are not held responsible.
The signature below sums it all up. After saying this, wonder if I'm on the hit list. If so...Bring it on! :lifter:lifter
Thoughts on Meta Data
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o2djiZOxyA&feature=share&list=UUaGoVAB64Ojh3JU_VPis8ig
my 1st post, hope I did this correctly...
Informative video for the layman.
If I had someone's metadata and the numbers were listed...after writing some code and setting up a Google maps interface. Could tell you a lot about someone with a years worth of data in five minutes or less, on my liquid cooled cyberpower using win7 no less. Faster on one of my gentoo servers.
Add: Add a big cluster and include all the friends, contacts, doctors...etc. that your contacts contacted, repeat.
Comforting isn't it...:eek:
ddoering
07-02-2013, 18:14
"WASHINGTON (AP) — Director of National Intelligence James Clapper has apologized for telling Congress earlier this year that the National Security Agency does not collect data on millions of Americans, a response he now says was "clearly erroneous.""
http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-politics/20130702/US-NSA-Surveillance-Clapper/
What he meant to say was "Sorry I got caught lying." Ass!!! If an official doesn't have to tell Congress the truth then we truly are in a police state. I guess he feels he doesn't need oversight.
Anybody understand what he just said. I don't understand what he just said. :D Confessed Knuckledragger here. Translation please. ;)
I am a little lost in the grammar to give you a direct translation of the quote, but I hope Bad Shot's follow up post cleared it up enough.
Tools are great, but it would be analogous to having a keys to open 10 locked drawers and 10 people to open them to compare what is in them but they are all stuck and each one is full of information in different languages with typographical errors. Your data is somewhere in those drawers. Will they ever open? Sure. But not all at once and those drawers are from last year. 3 changed locks 4 times and changes languages as well. Chasing old data means cleansing old data. So you have to have a sort. That means choosing whose data you really need to get right. The larger the warehouse and number of inputs, the more it is not just about processing power and programming tools.
Data warehousing and parallel processing aside, the fallacy in this regard is data cleansing. To mine all that data and analyze it, clean data could be the long pole in the tent. You have unmatched, unvalidated data from numerous sources within numerous companies over time when they change and upgrade systems. Check with any professional services guy from IBM or Teradata you might sleep easier. :munchin
"WASHINGTON (AP) — Director of National Intelligence James Clapper has apologized for telling Congress earlier this year that the National Security Agency does not collect data on millions of Americans, a response he now says was "clearly erroneous.""
http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-politics/20130702/US-NSA-Surveillance-Clapper/
What he meant to say was "Sorry I got caught lying." Ass!!! If an official doesn't have to tell Congress the truth then we truly are in a police state. I guess he feels he doesn't need oversight.
They all are lying...
It's only metadata...it only shows your location and everyone you've spoken to. It wouldn't take split second a reference a phone database for all the names (telecoms have standardized the databases for easier access), another minute to link it to emails, texts, etc.
There are some other activities I won't mention here but they do have some interesting bed fellows and fixations.
I am a little lost in the grammar to give you a direct translation of the quote, but I hope Bad Shot's follow up post cleared it up enough.
Tools are great, but it would be analogous to having a keys to open 10 locked drawers and 10 people to open them to compare what is in them but they are all stuck and each one is full of information in different languages with typographical errors. Your data is somewhere in those drawers. Will they ever open? Sure. But not all at once and those drawers are from last year. 3 changed locks 4 times and changes languages as well. Chasing old data means cleansing old data. So you have to have a sort. That means choosing whose data you really need to get right. The larger the warehouse and number of inputs, the more it is not just about processing power and programming tools.
Data warehousing and parallel processing aside, the fallacy in this regard is data cleansing. To mine all that data and analyze it, clean data could be the long pole in the tent. You have unmatched, unvalidated data from numerous sources within numerous companies over time when they change and upgrade systems. Check with any professional services guy from IBM or Teradata you might sleep easier. :munchin
Nice take, even getting current data from NOAA requires cleaning
"NSA recruitment drive goes horribly wrong"
Link:
http://m.guardiannews.com/world/shortcuts/2013/jul/05/national-security-agency-recruitment-drive
Badger52
07-05-2013, 16:00
"NSA recruitment drive goes horribly wrong"
Link:
http://m.guardiannews.com/world/shortcuts/2013/jul/05/national-security-agency-recruitment-driveThat's almost Comedy Zone material. Shades of SNL and "Jane, you ignorant slut..."
I thought the last assembler coder died before the pilgrims landed in 1620. :D
SnT
I was an assembly language programmer for 16 years. 10,000 line automated Telex Switching System. (General Automation SPC 16/65 - it was actually top-of-the-line for mini-computers back in the 1980s w/very powerful I/O capabilities.)
Yeah, I know how old telex is; but at the time it was the only LEGALLY sound method for bank interactions. Not to mention it was the standard for embassies and many other corporate communications before Algore invented the internet!
[QUOTE=Surf n Turf;513697]I thought the last assembler coder died before the pilgrims landed in 1620. :D
SnT[/QUOTE
I was an assembly language programmer for 16 years. 10,000 line automated Telex Switching System. (General Automation SPC 16/65 - it was actually top-of-the-line for mini-computers back in the 1980s w/very powerful I/O capabilities.)
Yeah, I know how old telex is; but at the time it was the only LEGALLY sound method for bank interactions. Not to mention it was the standard for embassies and many other corporate communications before Algore invented the internet!
I use/used it for resident interrupt handlers, task switchers, ifs's, network crap, boot loaders, direct disk stuff (ie. Bypassing bios) and mixed with pascal or c (inlines).
It's good stuff...every good programmer should have least had to write a few programs completely in it. It gives you an understanding about the box that serves one well in any aspect of tech related endeavors.
Irishsquid
07-06-2013, 09:08
I thought the last assembler coder died before the pilgrims landed in 1620. :D
SnT
Lol! I steadfastly refused to learn to program for a long time...but I ended up having to read assembly for malware analysis...at that point, I may as well learn to write it as well, right? So yeah...I was completely motivated by IDAPro...
I heard that they are "not" targeting CAIR phones users or obamaphones users.....;)
The fact that CAIR is in this country still operational shows the how deep the internal enemies of the United States are borrowed in. That disgusts me.
Roguish Lawyer
07-09-2013, 10:05
http://www.law.com/jsp/ca/PubArticleCA.jsp?id=1202610020594&kw=Long-Running%20Domestic%20Surveillance%20Suit%20Advance s&et=editorial&bu=The%20Recorder&cn=20130709&src=EMC-Email&pt=News%20Alert&slreturn=20130609120139
http://rare.us/story/move-over-nsa-here-comes-the-obamacare-big-brother-database/
Would you trust thousands of low-level Federal bureaucrats and contractors with one-touch access to your private financial and medical information? Under Obamacare you won’t have any choice. As the Obamacare train-wreck begins to gather steam, there is increasing concern in Congress over something called the Federal Data Services Hub. The Data Hub is a comprehensive database of personal information being established by the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) to implement the federally facilitated health insurance exchanges. The purpose of the Data Hub, according to a June 2013 Government Accountability Office (GAO) report, is to provide “electronic, near real-time access to federal data” and “access to state and third party data sources needed to verify consumer-eligibility information.” In these days of secret domestic surveillance by the intelligence community, rogue IRS officials and state tax agencies using private information for political purposes, and police electronically logging every license plate that passes by, the idea of the centralized Data Hub is making lawmakers and citizens nervous. They certainly should be; the potential for abuse is enormous. The massive, centralized database will include comprehensive personal information such as income and financial data, family size, citizenship and immigration status, incarceration status, social security numbers, and private health information. It will compile dossiers based on information obtained from the IRS, the Department of Homeland Security, the Department of Defense, the Veterans Administration, the Office of Personnel Management, the Social Security Administration, state Medicaid databases, and for some reason the Peace Corps. The Data Hub will provide web-based, one-stop shopping for prying into people’s personal affairs. Not to fear, HHS says, the Data Hub will be completely secure. Really? Secure like all the information that has been made public in the Wikileaks era? These days no government agency can realistically claim that private information will be kept private, especially when it is being made so accessible. Putting everyone’s personal information in once place only simplifies the challenge for those looking to hack into the system. However, the hacker threat is the least of the Data Hub worries. The hub will be used on a daily basis by so-called Navigators, which according to the GAO are “community and consumer-focused nonprofit groups, to which exchanges award grants to provide fair and impartial public education” and “refer consumers as appropriate for further assistance.” Thousands of such people will have unfettered access to the Data Hub, but there are only sketchy guidelines on how they will be hired, trained and monitored. Given the slap-dash, incoherent way Obamacare is being implemented the prospect for quality control is low. [COLOR="Cyan"]And the Obama administration’s track record of sweetheart deals, no-bid, sole-source contracting and other means of rewarding people with insider access means the Data Hub will be firmly in the hands of trusted White House loyalists.
Snip-
You sort of answered my question in the last sentence, which was "who will oversee the hub?" DHS involvement doesn't give me any warm fuzzies.
This really scares me.
http://rare.us/story/move-over-nsa-here-comes-the-obamacare-big-brother-database/
Would you trust thousands of low-level Federal bureaucrats and contractors with one-touch access to your private financial and medical information? Under Obamacare you won’t have any choice.
Those low-level bureaucrats will never take a peek at C-lebs, pols or neighbor's records...well, not a long peek...and the Inquirer and their ilk won't pay for info...
...and the IRS won't target political opponents...
:munchin
http://rare.us/story/move-over-nsa-here-comes-the-obamacare-big-brother-database/
Would you trust thousands of low-level Federal bureaucrats and contractors with one-touch access to your private financial and medical information? Under Obamacare you won’t have any choice. As the Obamacare train-wreck begins to gather steam, there is increasing concern in Congress over something called the Federal Data Services Hub. The Data Hub is a comprehensive database of personal information being established by the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) to implement the federally facilitated health insurance exchanges. ..... It will compile dossiers based on information obtained from the IRS, the Department of Homeland Security, the Department of Defense, the Veterans Administration, the Office of Personnel Management, the Social Security Administration, state Medicaid databases, and for some reason the Peace Corps. The Data Hub will provide web-based, one-stop shopping for prying into people’s personal affairs. ...... The hub will be used on a daily basis by so-called Navigators, which according to the GAO are “community and consumer-focused nonprofit groups, to which exchanges award grants to provide fair and impartial public education” and “refer consumers as appropriate for further assistance.” Thousands of such people will have unfettered access to the Data Hub, but there are only sketchy guidelines on how they will be hired, trained and monitored. Given the slap-dash, incoherent way Obamacare is being implemented the prospect for quality control is low. [COLOR="Cyan"]And the Obama administration’s track record of sweetheart deals, no-bid, sole-source contracting and other means of rewarding people with insider access means the Data Hub will be firmly in the hands of trusted White House loyalists.
Snip-
What are the odds that one of these NGOs or companies or our own state or federal government will use prisoners as a cost savings so felons have access to all of this "secure" data? It happened in telemarketing. I was going to put this in pink font, but as I consider it -- maybe not. This is dated, but interesting.
June 7, 2002
PRISON-BASED TELEMARKETING: *Adding Insult to Injury* This short paper points out why the FTC should eliminate all prison-based telemarketing (PBT):
Job-training to reduce prisoner recidivism is an admirable goal, but even without considering the issue of prisoner access to personal information, prison-based telemarketing defeats the idea of prison sentences to isolate incarcerated criminals from society. PBT not only requires interaction of criminals with private citizens, but also requires that interaction to occur in their private residence. Most objectionable of all, is that outbound telemarketing calls an uninvited and unwanted interaction, per se.
Personal information has been abused in PBT programs many times. April Jordan*s daughter was solicited by a prisoner calling from Utah. The prisoner later sold personal information he coaxed out of the daughter to another prisoner who used it to write the daughter a letter. Her family is still concerned about what will happen when these prisoners are eventually released. This and a similar incident helped lead Utah to terminate its PBT program on August 31, 2000. The Washington state prison telemarketing operation was also shut down for similar abuses.
President Bush Opposes Prisoner Access to Personal Information. As Governor of Texas, George Bush wrote in 2000 that *Inmates should not have access to personal data about individuals,* and he phased out jobs allowing Texas inmates access to personal information. (Source: May 25, 2000 letter from Governor George Bush to April Jordan).
Congress*s General Accounting Office (GAO) found that as of Sep. 1998, of about 1.2 million inmates, approximately 1,400 inmates in Bureau of Prison and 19 state prison systems had access to personal information through correctional industry work programs. (Source: GAO/GGD-99-146, Inmates* Access to Personal Information, August 1999).
Public opposition to Prison-based Telemarketing is very strong. In April 2002 Colorado legislators, including the bill*s original House sponsor, killed a proposal to allow PBT for magazine subscriptions after outraged Colorado citizens called the governor*s office. (Source: Denver Post, Arthur Kane, *Complaints Torpedo prison telemarketing,* April 11, 2002).
Prisoner recidivism is rising. In June 2002, the U.S. Dept. of Justice released the first major study of recidivism in over a decade. The report examined 272,111 former inmates in 15 states during the first three years after their release. The report found that 67% of inmates released from state prisons in 1994 committed at least one serious new crime within three years, a 5% increase over inmates released in 1983. Do we want a criminal to telemarket a residence when that criminal is more than likely to commit another crime?
Identity Theft is Rising. The GAO reported in Feb. 2002 that the FTC Clearinghouse responded to an average of 445 calls per week in Nov. 1999. By March 2001 the average was 2,000 calls/week, and by Dec. 2001, the weekly avg. was about 3,000.
The GAO wrote: *Identity theft can cause substantial harm to the lives of individual citizens - potentially severe emotional or other non-monetary harm, as well as economic harm. Even though financial institutions may not hold victims liable for fraudulent debts, victims nonetheless often feel *personally violated* and have reported spending significant amounts of time trying to resolve the problems caused by identity theft - problems such as bounced checks, loan denials, credit card application rejections, and debt collection harassment,* GAO-02-424T, Identity Theft: Available
Data Indicate Growth in Prevalence & Cost (www.gao.gov/new.itmes/d0242t.pdf). Prison-Based Telemarketing is a breeding ground for Identity Theft. Even if prisoners are prevented from having personal information, and are subject to monitoring and other restrictions (like not being allowed to take notes), as soon as they get out of prison, they can immediately get a telemarketing job which will not have these restrictions. And even in PBT programs with close monitoring, taping of inmate calls, selective hiring, security checks at the exits, the abuses still occurred. Prisoners now discuss ID theft in prisons as a less risky and less dangerous alternative to other crimes. (Source: a national privacy expert speaking to attorneys in June 2002).
There are many better jobs for prisoners besides telemarketing. Telemarketing is not just reviled by an overwhelming majority of the public, but is a job defined by repeated and often nasty rejection, not exactly the kind of confidence and esteem-building work prisoners need. Besides telemarketing, Utah prisoners* work included well-paying technically complex jobs, clothing manufacturing, copying historical files, and computer repair. (Prison Legal News, December 2001, Roger Hummel, *Telemarketing and Computer Programs Crash at Utah Prison,* page 1). The GAO*s 1999 report (p. 3) distinguished manufacture of license plates, wood products and textiles, office and administrative work, food service, laundry, building maintenance, farming/agriculture, and work on roads and parks from work such as data entry, where inmates were most often allowed access to personal information. This author has viewed an informational video describing the invaluable role played by prisoners in helping maintain Independence Pass, an important road through the mountains near Aspen, CO, where erosion and falling rocks are a regular and real danger without needed road maintenance.
States should be certified in the federal Prison Industry Enhancement (PIE) Program. Federal law prohibits state prisons from selling their products in interstate commerce unless they are certified by a federal program known as PIE. By failing to get certification, states may preclude opportunities for certain jobs for prisoners, and may unconsciously look towards telemarketing as an easy fix to fill the gap for prison jobs.
CONCLUSION: PRISON-BASED TELEMARKETING SHOULD BE COMPLETELY BANNED, FOR ALL IN-BOUND AND OUTBOUND TELEMARKETING.
This article can be re-printed freely with appropriate credit to the author, Michael C. Worsham.
It is hard to find much recent data on this in a quick search, but apparently it is alive and well. http://www.convictionleads.com
What are the odds that one of these NGOs or companies or our own state or federal government will use prisoners as a cost savings so felons have access to all of this "secure" data?
Crim-nals with access to sensitive government information, you say...never happen.
Are you talking conviction pre or post government employment?
Nevermind. :D
What are the odds that one of these NGOs or companies or our own state or federal government will use prisoners as a cost savings so felons have access to all of this "secure" data? It happened in telemarketing. I was going to put this in pink font, but as I consider it -- maybe not. This is dated, but interesting.
It is hard to find much recent data on this in a quick search, but apparently it is alive and well. http://www.convictionleads.com
You raise an interesting point. In the business and banking industry where there is lots of customer data to mine, ID thieves actively try to get jobs in these types of places to mine the data to sell for manufacturing fake credit cards, etc. This is a huge business for them. But I am sure the governments hiring and screening process would be adequate to prevent this...
You raise an interesting point. In the business and banking industry where there is lots of customer data to mine, ID thieves actively try to get jobs in these types of places to mine the data to sell for manufacturing fake credit cards, etc. This is a huge business for them. But I am sure the governments hiring and screening process would be adequate to prevent this...
Hoping the pink font was implied. :munchin
Criminals with access to personal information! Which ones - the ones in prison or the ones in Washington?
Hoping the pink font was implied. :munchin
I wasn't sure if I needed to do that or not. But, yes, for the last sentence. No for all the rest.
Criminals with access to personal information! Which ones - the ones in prison or the ones in Washington?
Both. :(
DrudgeReport link
This is from the article, the link follows text
.......The purpose of the Data Hub, according to a June 2013 Government Accountability Office (GAO) report, is to provide “electronic, near real-time access to federal data” and “access to state and third party data sources needed to verify consumer-eligibility information.” - See more at: http://rare.us/story/move-over-nsa-here-comes-the-obamacare-big-brother-database/#sthash.lcZY3zET.dpuf
The thing that gets me is the cognitive dissonance that allows people to think that this is OK, but asking for ID to vote is somehow an invasion or attempt at deprival!
....More proof that those awake implicitly understand how the average Roman felt watching that train-wreck happen.
The thing that gets me is the cognitive dissonance that allows people to think that this is OK, but asking for ID to vote is somehow an invasion or attempt at deprival!
There's a bill up in the Senate outlining mandatory voter ID for Republicans only; it'll probably get through the House.
Badger52
07-28-2013, 09:38
From Wired (no shock), but an interesting couple of charts supporting their premise of:
The numbers tell the story — in votes and dollars. On Wednesday, the House voted 217 to 205 not to rein in the NSA’s phone-spying dragnet. It turns out that those 217 “no” voters received twice as much campaign financing from the defense and intelligence industry as the 205 “yes” voters.
Apparently the "enlightened ones" are paid to be so.
Link to full story, which has a link to the Amash amendment as well here. (http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/07/money-nsa-vote/)
NSA admits tracking locations of cellphones in the United States
By Brendan Sasso - 10/02/13 12:48 PM ET
The Hill
The director of the National Security Agency revealed Wednesday that the government collected Americans' cellphone location data in bulk as part of a secret pilot program in 2010 and 2011.
The program tracked the locations of an unknown number of people in the United States who were under no suspicion of wrongdoing.
At a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing, NSA Director Gen. Keith Alexander said the agency "received samples in order to test its systems" but that the cellphone location data was not used for any intelligence analysis.
Leaks by Edward Snowden revealed earlier this year that the NSA is using Section 215 of the Patriot Act to collect records on all U.S. phone calls. Those records include phone numbers, call times and call durations — but whether the NSA also collected cellphone location information had remained unclear.
At a Senate Intelligence Committee hearing last week, Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) asked Alexander about the existence of a location data program.
Alexander responded that the NSA is not currently collecting cellphone location data in bulk, but Wyden pressed the NSA chief on whether the agency had "ever" collected such information.
“What I don't want to do, senator, is put out in an unclassified forum anything that's classified here,” Alexander said at the time.
http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/326123-nsa-program-tracked-us-cellphone-locations
<snip>
Big brother is watching...
NSA collects millions of e-mail address books globally
By Barton Gellman and Ashkan Soltani, Published: October 14
Washington Post
The National Security Agency is harvesting hundreds of millions of contact lists from personal e-mail and instant messaging accounts around the world, many of them belonging to Americans, according to senior intelligence officials and top-secret documents provided by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden.
The collection program, which has not been disclosed before, intercepts e-mail address books and “buddy lists” from instant messaging services as they move across global data links. Online services often transmit those contacts when a user logs on, composes a message, or synchronizes a computer or mobile device with information stored on remote servers.
Rather than targeting individual users, the NSA is gathering contact lists in large numbers that amount to a sizable fraction of the world’s e-mail and instant messaging accounts. Analysis of that data enables the agency to search for hidden connections and to map relationships within a much smaller universe of foreign intelligence targets.
During a single day last year, the NSA’s Special Source Operations branch collected 444,743 e-mail address books from Yahoo, 105,068 from Hotmail, 82,857 from Facebook, 33,697 from Gmail and 22,881 from unspecified other providers, according to an internal NSA PowerPoint presentation. Those figures, described as a typical daily intake in the document, correspond to a rate of more than 250 million a year.
Each day, the presentation said, the NSA collects contacts from an estimated 500,000 buddy lists on live-chat services as well as from the inbox displays of Web-based e-mail accounts.
The collection depends on secret arrangements with foreign telecommunications companies or allied intelligence services in control of facilities that direct traffic along the Internet’s main data routes.
Although the collection takes place overseas, two senior U.S. intelligence officials acknowledged that it sweeps in the contacts of many Americans. They declined to offer an estimate but did not dispute that the number is likely to be in the millions or tens of millions.
A spokesman for the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, which oversees the NSA, said the agency “is focused on discovering and developing intelligence about valid foreign intelligence targets like terrorists, human traffickers and drug smugglers. We are not interested in personal information about ordinary Americans.”
The spokesman, Shawn Turner, added that rules approved by the attorney general require the NSA to “minimize the acquisition, use and dissemination” of information that identifies a U.S. citizen or permanent resident.
The NSA’s collection of nearly all U.S. call records, under a separate program, has generated significant controversy since it was revealed in June. The NSA’s director, Gen. Keith B. Alexander, has defended “bulk” collection as an essential counterterrorism and foreign intelligence tool, saying, “You need the haystack to find the needle.”
Contact lists stored online provide the NSA with far richer sources of data than call records alone. Address books commonly include not only names and e-mail addresses, but also telephone numbers, street addresses, and business and family information. Inbox listings of e-mail accounts stored in the “cloud” sometimes contain content, such as the first few lines of a message.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-collects-millions-of-e-mail-address-books-globally/2013/10/14/8e58b5be-34f9-11e3-80c6-7e6dd8d22d8f_story.html
Big brother is watching...
The NSA’s collection of nearly all U.S. call records, under a separate program, has generated significant controversy since it was revealed in June. The NSA’s director, Gen. Keith B. Alexander, has defended “bulk” collection as an essential counterterrorism and foreign intelligence tool, saying, “You need the haystack to find the needle.”
Think I'll drop off the grid.
Think I'll drop off the grid.
I'm givin' that some thought...but then I'd miss the great stuff here. :D
Can't wait till the political operative types get their hands on all this type of stuff and selectively leak small portions of opposition emails and health records. ;)
I'm givin' that some thought...but then I'd miss the great stuff here. :D
Can't wait till the political operative types get their hands on all this type of stuff and selectively leak small portions of opposition emails and health records. ;)
I'm serious. I could go puredee Dan'l Boone out here.;)
I'm serious. I could go puredee Dan'l Boone out here.;)
Now you're just making me jealous !
Now you're just making me jealous !
Think about it, Tony; the way things are going, I may not have to pull my own plug.
My advice to anyone and everyone:
Get a house in the deep country with your own water, wood and meat supply, seeds, chickens, some hogs and a milk cow, and a woodburning cook stove.
Then, you can sit there and confidently post what you think are hilarious snippets of wisdom without a care in the world until the power grid's gone, just like Dusty. :D
Think about it, Tony; the way things are going, I may not have to pull my own plug.
My advice to anyone and everyone:
Get a house in the deep country with your own water, wood and meat supply, seeds, chickens, some hogs and a milk cow, and a woodburning cook stove.
Then, you can sit there and confidently post what you think are hilarious snippets of wisdom without a care in the world until the power grid's gone, just like Dusty. :D
:lifter
Do you know how many folks want off the grid !
I think you're on to something - tough sell to the wimmins - my brother-in law is trying. I think my wife could make a go of it.
:lifter
Do you know how many folks want off the grid !
I think you're on to something - tough sell to the wimmins - my brother-in law is trying. I think my wife could make a go of it.
See, there's your first problem; what difference does it make what your wife thinks? That's so millenial. :D