View Full Version : From pilot to cab driver in one easy step.
This guy is in for a long weekend.
How not to practice target acquisition (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,137632,00.html)
any-one hear anything else on this?
Team Sergeant
11-04-2004, 19:23
This guy is in for a long weekend.
How not to practice target acquisition (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,137632,00.html)
any-one hear anything else on this?
How much does pilot training cost?
What's amusing is the fact the they're saying "the gun went off!"
Inorder to hit the school the plane has to be headed in the direction of the target, so saying the "gun just went off" doesn't cut it. This guy will be promoted to Col and lead the AF soon I'm sure.
How much does pilot training cost?
What's amusing is the fact the they're saying "the gun went off!"
In order to hit the school the plane has to be headed in the direction of the target, so saying the "gun just went off" doesn't cut it. This guy will be promoted to Col and lead the AF soon I'm sure.
It was about 1.5 Million to educate this guy through his advanced school.
It is about a year and a half worth of training:
Screening
Primary
Advanced.
Total of 239 hours, give or take a few.
"the gun went off" is going to be a very poor defense for him. He needs a better Counselor or a crew chief stating/confessing that he rigged his plane.
If he's 7k up, then he must have had the aircraft in a fairly steep dive to have the rounds hit the school. Anyone know what the range of the Vulcan is? I wonder what the radar tapes say.
Would an investigation into this be made public at all? I would love to read it when it's finished.
I think I'll wait and let the USAF investigate the cause. It could well have been an equipment malfunction. If he was at 7000 AGL and at night and the entire burst hit the school there are many unanswered questions. The humor is lost if we transpose the incident by about 10K miles.
:munchin
What's amusing is the fact the they're saying "the gun went off!"
Your typical media assclown is a pagan animist. Think of all the BS leading up to Brady, the recently expired AWB, and the frivolous lawsuits against gun companies. Most stories involving these topics involved guns which fired of their own accord. It's not the man, it's the tool.
This type of thing is fairly common; you just don't hear about it because the impact area is usually out in BFE. During workups for Desert Storm, an A-6E pounded a campsite in California.
The Reaper
11-05-2004, 07:16
Your typical media assclown is a pagan animist. Think of all the BS leading up to Brady, the recently expired AWB, and the frivolous lawsuits against gun companies. Most stories involving these topics involved guns which fired of their own accord. It's not the man, it's the tool.
This type of thing is fairly common; you just don't hear about it because the impact area is usually out in BFE. During workups for Desert Storm, an A-6E pounded a campsite in California.
Concur completely.
We are a society which largely denies personal responsibility and embraces victimization.
I have been amazed at the stories we get from SF students who would have probably been selected had they just ponied up and admitted what they did honestly and succinctly, without seeking to place blame elsewhere.
TR
1026: I don't find where the press reported that "The gun went off" or made any judgement at all.
"The National Guard takes this situation very seriously," said Lt. Col. Roberta Niedt, a spokeswoman for the state Department of Military and Veterans Affairs. "The safety of our people and the surrounding communities are our foremost concern."
The jet that fired the rounds was assigned to the 113th Wing of the District of Columbia Air National Guard, based at Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland. The plane returned there after firing the shots, Webster said.
He would not identify the pilot or detail possible disciplinary measures.
Thank god the military investigates before blaming. I feel the press reported the incident responsibly, making no conclusions. It is amazing how the people with the least information sometimes make the quickest determinations.
Based upon the altitude, acft speed and time of night I believe this was an "accidental discharge" rather than simply missing a target. Admiting that most unintentional firings are because of operator's head space, there could, however, be another reason.
Bill Harsey
11-05-2004, 07:55
Your typical media assclown is a pagan animist. Think of all the BS leading up to Brady, the recently expired AWB, and the frivolous lawsuits against gun companies. Most stories involving these topics involved guns which fired of their own accord. It's not the man, it's the tool.
This type of thing is fairly common; you just don't hear about it because the impact area is usually out in BFE. During workups for Desert Storm, an A-6E pounded a campsite in California.
Pagan animist? Now I have homework to do.
Anyone check to see if the pilot had gone to school there?
Ok, Did some homework, found the term "pagan animist" claimed by one who is a "shaman and FTM transgendered intersexual activist and minister." I'm starting to get a picture...
Team Sergeant
11-05-2004, 08:12
1026: I don't find where the press reported that "The gun went off" or made any judgement at all.
"He inadvertently discharged the weapon. He was not in the act of aiming the gun at anything," said Col. Brian Webster, commander of the 177th Fighter Wing of the New Jersey Air National Guard, of the incident. "We do not know exactly why the gun fired."
"Colonel Webster said the incident yesterday was under investigation by the Pentagon and state officials. "We have no idea why the gun went off," he said. "This is a very unusual and unique thing." He said the range at Warren Grove had been open for more than 40 years and that this was the first time bullets fired from the air had struck off the range. It was unclear who reported the incident to military officials."
I knew I read that somewhere.....
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/05/nyregion/05strafe.html
We shall see.
The angle of the bullets will tell the story.
The USAF killed more soldiers (Americans, Brits etc) then the entire Iraq military before, during and after Desert Storm.
TS
(BTW, I are a graduate of the AF TACP school.)
Bill Harsey
11-05-2004, 08:23
Isn't the exact location of the aircraft in the sky when bullets fired an important factor in using bullet angle to judge what happened?
Bullets could come in at an angle because they traveled a long distance and were on the end of the trajectory arc or the airplane could have been pointed straight at the target when firing.
I agree TS. There is no way a shot group that tight could have occured from 7K unless the acft was pointed directly at it. OTOH it is possible that he was in a dive in preparation of strafing the target which was three miles away.
I don't see the quote you cited in the posted URL. Perhaps it is in another article from a different reporter. What I see is:
"The pilot of the single-seat jet was supposed to fire at a ground target on the firing range three and half miles from the school, said Col. Brian Webster, commander of the 177th Fighter Wing of the New Jersey Air National Guard (search), which is responsible for the range. He did not know what led to the school getting shot up.
As is the case with most unintentional discharges it is likely "Operator's Headspace". At this time I don't klnow if any determoinations or accusations have been made by the responsible agencies.
I guess that my original post was that I detected nothing improper in the way the incident was reported.
Isn't the exact location of the aircraft in the sky when bullets fired an important factor in using bullet angle to judge what happened?
Bullets could come in at an angle because they traveled a long distance and were on the end of the trajectory arc or the airplane could have been pointed straight at the target when firing.
Sho 'nuff. I am still inclined to think he was losing altitude in preparation for a straffing run. I have had support from fast movers firing 20 mm "PD" rounds from Vulcans. I can attest that they were closer to 100 feet and were an awsome sight.
Team Sergeant
11-05-2004, 08:44
I don't see the quote you cited in the posted URL. Perhaps it is in another article from a different reporter. What I see is:
Terry,
I read about 10 reports on the shooting, I don't remember where I quoted that one from, my point was it came from the horses mouth, Col Webster. I think I would have not made silly statements and waited for the investigation to finish. And if I were the boy/girl behind the trigger, I'd admit to my mistake if said boy or girl actually pulled the trigger.... That's my beef with the AF pilot training, deny everything....
TS: Maybe he was turning the page in the TM and brushed the button. :D
I saw a post in another location stating that on gunnery practice, the A-10 pilots consistently put 20 rds in an 8 ft square target, and often all 25. It's so valuable as a CAS acft that I understand the USAF is or has trashed it. When I joined the Army, the US Army had the third largest air force in the world. IMNHO we should have retained all tactical ground support aircraft.
The USAF still has the public and much of the government convinced they can win wars without putting boots on the ground. After all of the air strikes in Fallujah it is still going to take the grunts to go in and do what should have been done a year ago.
The USAF killed more soldiers (Americans, Brits etc) then the entire Iraq military before, during and after Desert Storm.
TS
(BTW, I are a graduate of the AF TACP school.)
I had a team mate say something similar to that in front of a TACP. He said "the Air Force has killed more sf guys then the taliban" ...wow the TACP took that little comment very seriously. He was very pissed off.
Team Sergeant
11-05-2004, 10:41
I had a team mate say something similar to that in front of a TACP. He said "the Air Force has killed more sf guys then the taliban" ...wow the TACP took that little comment very seriously. He was very pissed off.
It's too bad its true..... and the reason myself and another Team member went to TACP school.... Very few know that only TACP's and SF'ers can call for airstrikes, set up fixed wing runways, select LZ's and DZ's etc.
Let's not forget how many times they have also pulled our bacon out of the fire in recent wars. The split ODA that was caught behind enemy lines during DS may not have survived had it not been for the USAF!
The Reaper
11-05-2004, 11:41
I saw a post in another location stating that on gunnery practice, the A-10 pilots consistently put 20 rds in an 8 ft square target, and often all 25. It's so valuable as a CAS acft that I understand the USAF is or has trashed it. When I joined the Army, the US Army had the third largest air force in the world. IMNHO we should have retained all tactical ground support aircraft.
The USAF still has the public and much of the government convinced they can win wars without putting boots on the ground. After all of the air strikes in Fallujah it is still going to take the grunts to go in and do what should have been done a year ago.
Well said!
Concur 100%.
The only USAF a/c procurement since 1960, IIRC stopped at the end of its initial buy has been the A-10.
A few years back, the AF looked at transferring them to the Army, WITHOUT THE MAIN GUN, HARDPOINTS, PERSONNEL, OR FUNDING!!
They thought we could use them as FAC a/c for the fast movers.
I think a large part of the reason we had marginal numbers of ground forces in OIF was the AF selling a bill of goods on what air power alone could accomplish.
TR
The Reaper
11-05-2004, 11:44
It's too bad its true..... and the reason myself and another Team member went to TACP school.... Very few know that only TACP's and SF'ers can call for airstrikes, set up fixed wing runways, select LZ's and DZ's etc.
Let's not forget how many times they have also pulled our bacon out of the fire in recent wars. The split ODA that was caught behind enemy lines during DS may not have survived had it not been for the USAF!
Yes, it is true, AF fratricide is a (if not the) major killer of SF.
IIRC, the Navy has flown quite a few support missions for us, and is very happy doing CAS.
Are you taliking about Bulldog's team?
TR
Team Sergeant
11-05-2004, 11:46
Are you taliking about Bulldog's team?
TR
Roger, I knew all those guys.
Would an investigation into this be made public at all? I would love to read it when it's finished.
I would presume it will all be investigated by the Air Force.
The FAA/NTSB will probably get the results afterwards for pacification, if they are even involved at ths point. The NTSB reports their investigations on their website, however, I am not sure where this would fall with them. It may not be included as a public investigation since the aircraft itself was not in an accident.
If you are looking to read accident investigations go to the NTSB website and search away. I used to search through here when I was getting my private license and learned alot about accidents and root causes of them. You will be surprised at what most problems are....you guessed it right, Pilot Error.
The Reaper
11-05-2004, 12:21
This is not unusual, particularly as urban sprawl has encroached on bases.
I have seen bombs, rockets, heavy artillery, mortars, and small arms fire hit civilian housing before.
There will be an investigation, followed by a bunch of new range rules and outreach efforts to the affected community.
If they gripe to long and loud, they might get a visit from the BRAC Committee.
TR
Cheers Flyboy, I'll have a gander over there.
I remember the USAF "got" one of the SAS boys a few a years ago in Kuwait, Maj McNutt I believe his name was.
Cheers Flyboy, I'll have a gander over there.
I remember the USAF "got" one of the SAS boys a few a years ago in Kuwait, Maj McNutt I believe his name was.
IIRC the zoomies claimed they were drugged up on pills. OTOH ithat was the wedding party.
ZOOMIES don't have a monopoly of FF incidents. It was a standing joke in I Corp that for weekend entertainment, the VC would get between two jarhead units, fire a couple of rounds in the air then lay back and watch the fireworks.
:munchin
That was the Canadian snipers in Afghanistan. I have some strong opinions on that paticular incident, too, but I wasn't there so my opinion is probably more like my ar*ehole- full of sh*t.
Yes, it is true, AF fratricide is a (if not the) major killer of SF.
IIRC, the Navy has flown quite a few support missions for us, and is very happy doing CAS.
TR
That we are, Sir.
Update. (http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1217SchoolStrafed17-ON.html)
Bill Harsey
12-18-2004, 08:19
Interesting follow up, Thanks for posting that.
Is this a weapons system design problem?
Interesting follow up, Thanks for posting that.
Is this a weapons system design problem?
"the MP forgot that his aircraft's air-to-ground gun mode was selected and armed ready to fire"
I don't think a redesign will help this one. But I've been wrong before.
Short between the stick and seat... ;)
uboat509
12-18-2004, 14:29
Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,141923,00.html)
I agree that this pilot, a Major, should have known that his weapons were hot, but just the same a redesign wouldn't hurt. Call me crazy, but I believe that the same trigger should not activate both guns and laser designators. That just cuts down the chances for error. If M4 is on accidently semi instead of same for some reason, it is not a huge deal because I am still not going to pull the trigger unless the weapon is pointed at something that I want to hit. With this system you can use the same trigger to perform both lethal and non lethal tasks. That just seems like a bad idea to me.