Do NOT get out of shape.

[Bracholi]

The year was 2006. I was a 310 pound college geek who drank too much and cared too little. I'd wanted to join the army since I was young. I remember running around with whatever "firearms" myself and my neighbors could find playing army men. We'd chase one another around for a little while or just lay for what seemed to be hours in ambush for one of our other friends coming home from dinner with their family.

So you'd figure... If I wanted to eventually join the military, I should've never let myself get to 310 pounds right? That I'd have competed in sports, or at least participated heavily in Boy Scouts? Something right? Anything at all?

I, however, was spoiled and lazy. By the time I began the 9th grade I was already 190 pounds... by the time I graduated high school I was up to 250. In the 6 months after graduation I somehow managed a 60 pound increase in the appearance of prominence.

It took 8 months of hell, but, thanks to a very dedicated Army recruiter, and actually more-so to the Marine recruiters, I managed to break down to my 228 pound self, and passed tape (24% Body Fat). I'd finally managed to enlist!

At my leanest I made it down to 212 with a 20% tape test (I'd say bodyfat but I was closer to 14% on calipers).

This brings me to my original point... do NOT get out of shape.

I've managed to crawl my way up to 272 again... I've fluctuated down and up ten pounds in the past few years since leaving the Army. I recently determined that my injury was no excuse for failing myself when I was in. I had injured my back prior to deployment, deployed anyway, and lost my heart. within a year of returning from deployment, I was a disenchanted civilian again, with wounds some physical, though minimal, but mostly to my pride.

So here I am again, 272 and not happy with it. I've found my pride again, licked my wounds thoroughly, and plan to blaze a quicker trail to 220 again. This time I won't stop until I'm SFAS quality (at least in my physical prowess :p).
Who knows, maybe this time around God's plan might include my interview to join a class of people I've admired my entire life?

I started yesterday, my first workout in 3 years, with an hour of cardio at 85-90% intensity for my age/weight group. Every journey seems to begin with one subtle, life-changing step.

Thank you all for your service. I hope one day I'll be blundering around hopelessly lost in a small tent city with a board dictating my life.

[kozak]

Good on you for starting up again. Good luck with your future endeavors mate.

[GratefulCitizen]

Seen the weight thing come up a few times now.
Will share what I've learned.

Step 1: stop consuming poison.

-Do not eat anything containing high fructose corn syrup, anything which has the words hydrogenated or brominated, artificial sweeteners, maltodextrin, margarine, soy/soy products, or any type of pork.
-Do not eat anything which you can't be sure of the ingredients.
-Try not to eat anything which has ingredients you couldn't easily explain to a 6 year-old.
-Limit meat consumption.

Unfortunately, this wipes out much of what you'll find in a grocery store and almost everything you'll find in a restaurant.

Step 2: Do eat plenty of soluble fiber.
-Oatmeal is an easy way to do this.

Step 3: Sweat.
-Whatever type of exercise you do, make sure to sweat.
-Saunas work, too.


Notice that calories, fats, protein, carbs, cardio, etc. have not been mentioned.
Not completely sure why it works, it just does.

The theory I've heard is that fat storage has much to do with an inflammation response.
Reducing poison consumption and cleaning out poisons (soluble fiber, sweating) is supposed to enable your body to reduce excess fat.

Not a doctor, so I can't vouch for the validity of the theory.
The people I've known who follow the guidelines always get good results.

So long as it's not on the "do not eat" list, I eat what, when, and as much as is wanted.
Lately been getting the majority of my calories from seeds/nuts.

Sometimes consume 1500 calories worth of pistachios or cashews just for a snack.
Weight is staying down and body fat percentage is still dropping.

Good luck, HTH.

[Bracholi]

That's not bad advice... I've been trying to steer more natural anyway since there's been evidence of human fetal remains being added to food supply... Usually listed under the Artificial and Natural Flavorings catch-all. We've pretty much quit with coffee now (due to the lack of knowledge over which creamers DONT contain dead babies) and switched to tea... I now understand why Captain Picard prefers his Early Grey; good stuff. I'm trying to stick to organic/local honey in organic Green tea. If I've been reading correctly some of the contents in Green tea have some weight loss benefits. If it's untrue I'm still getting a healthy caffeine source with some good antioxidant power.

The general consensus has been that one shouldn't try to do, or quit, too many things at the same time. I'd generally agree, but I figured if I just found out I had cancer or AIDS or something else scary and deadly, I'd likely do just that. So why can't I have the willpower to do all of the above? Quitting smoking, new diet, and re-intro to exercise? I should be able to achieve better results this way, and with results come motivation right?

I was going to do a 7 day detox diet, but determined that I could achieve the same effect over time by just changing my overall eating habits.

The thing I need to get over; stretching. for the past two days I've gone to the gym and haven't properly stretched. I think today I'll take 10 minutes to do so, instead of my usual hop on the bike and warmup routine (which I usually fail to just warmup and instead push too hard)

Thanks for the advice and encouragement.

[Trapper John]

Seen the weight thing come up a few times now.
Will share what I've learned.

Step 1: stop consuming poison.

-Do not eat anything containing high fructose corn syrup,

I have highlighted this from GC's post because, IMO, that is the most important factor contributing to obesity. HFCS alters the gut microbiota in such a way as to promote more efficient caloric conversion of food. Hence, you can actually eat far fewer calories and still gain weight. There is substantial experimental evidence in mice and clinical evidence in humans that this alteration in intestinal microbiota occurs in obese patients. The etiology for that change is still unknown.

MO: HFCS is a stressor to intestinal endothelial cells and the cellular response to the stress is to secrete proteins that alter the composition of the intestinal microbiota. We have experiments planned to test this hypothesis. If correct then the process can be reversed. My advice, stop consuming HFCS and the microbiota reversal will occur naturally. The weight loss will follow and will be maintainable.

[ZonieDiver]

That's not bad advice... I've been trying to steer more natural anyway since there's been evidence of human fetal remains being added to food supply... Usually listed under the Artificial and Natural Flavorings catch-all. We've pretty much quit with coffee now (due to the lack of knowledge over which creamers DONT contain dead babies) and switched to tea... I now understand why Captain Picard prefers his Early Grey; good stuff. I'm trying to stick to organic/local honey in organic Green tea. If I've been reading correctly some of the contents in Green tea have some weight loss benefits. If it's untrue I'm still getting a healthy caffeine source with some good antioxidant power.

The general consensus has been that one shouldn't try to do, or quit, too many things at the same time. I'd generally agree, but I figured if I just found out I had cancer or AIDS or something else scary and deadly, I'd likely do just that. So why can't I have the willpower to do all of the above? Quitting smoking, new diet, and re-intro to exercise? I should be able to achieve better results this way, and with results come motivation right?

I was going to do a 7 day detox diet, but determined that I could achieve the same effect over time by just changing my overall eating habits.

The thing I need to get over; stretching. for the past two days I've gone to the gym and haven't properly stretched. I think today I'll take 10 minutes to do so, instead of my usual hop on the bike and warmup routine (which I usually fail to just warmup and instead push too hard)

Thanks for the advice and encouragement.

Drink your coffee black.

Seek help.

Seriously.

[Bracholi]

Drink your coffee black.

Seek help.

Seriously.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/its-not-just-pepsi-drug-food-cosmetic-companies-use-aborted-baby-cells-says/

http://www.naturalnews.com/035276_Pepsi_fetal_cells_business_operations.html

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2012/01/26/bill-would-ban-aborted-fetuses-in-food/

http://gawker.com/5879254/which-companies-are-using-aborted-human-fetuses-in-their-food

http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2012/01/27/fetal-cells-in-soda-not-quite-the-discomfort-behind-the-controversy/

[The Reaper]

That's not bad advice... I've been trying to steer more natural anyway since there's been evidence of human fetal remains being added to food supply... Usually listed under the Artificial and Natural Flavorings catch-all.

From the Forbes article, and the others appear to be saying the same thing.

No person or entity is manufacturing food or other products intended for human consumption that contain aborted human fetuses. But some food companies are using cell lines that were originally derived from human fetuses in order to develop new food products. Moreover, many medicines and vaccines, which I suppose could be seen as “meant for human consumption.” The Children of God For Life, which according to press reports inspired Shortey’s bill, also opposes standard vaccines for chickenpox, rubella and hepatitis A and drugs such as Roche’s Pulmozyme for cystic fibrosis and Amgen‘s Enbrel for rheumatoid arthritis. (See a list of products Children of God For Life say are unethical.)

Please save the Soylent Green nuttery for another day.

You are wearing your welcome thin.

TR

[ZonieDiver]

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/its-not-just-pepsi-drug-food-cosmetic-companies-use-aborted-baby-cells-says/

http://www.naturalnews.com/035276_Pepsi_fetal_cells_business_operations.html

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2012/01/26/bill-would-ban-aborted-fetuses-in-food/

http://gawker.com/5879254/which-companies-are-using-aborted-human-fetuses-in-their-food

http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2012/01/27/fetal-cells-in-soda-not-quite-the-discomfort-behind-the-controversy/

Interesting. Did you actually read those articles that you listed? Here are some quotes I gathered... one from each:

“Now, currently, there are no aborted fetuses in any food products. But some pundits interpret “consumption” in this bill to mean not just food products, but any product humans “consume,” like drugs, vaccines, treatments or even beauty products.”

“The fetus-derived cell line we’re talking about was also created around the time I was born. This is 35-year-old technology. And it is widely used in cell biology. And there is no way you’ll consume them or that the cells would cause any health problems.”

“Shortey may be acting on claims that the San Diego-based company Semonyx used proteins derived from human embryonic kidney cells to test artificial sweeteners, NPR reported. The cell line, known as HEK 293, was created from a human embryo in 1970 and has become a staple in biochemistry labs around the world.”

“Using human embryonic kidney (HEK-293) to produce flavor enhancers …the aborted fetal tissue used to make Pepsi's flavor chemicals does not end up in the final product sold to customers…”

PepsiCo for working with a company called Senomyx that "has been accused of using proteins derived from human embryonic kidney cells in its research."

For sure, switch to black coffee!

[Razor]

HFCS alters the gut microbiota in such a way as to promote more efficient caloric conversion of food.
MO: HFCS is a stressor to intestinal endothelial cells and the cellular response to the stress is to secrete proteins that alter the composition of the intestinal microbiota.

TJ, since OChem gives me a migraine just saying the name, do you know if this response is triggered only by HFCS, or by fructose (or sucrose, or lactose) from any source? I'm just curious if the body "sees" and handles HFCS differently from other "sugars".

[PSM]

Do NOT get out of shape.

The first day of PT in Basic, Nov. 1967, PT Instructor SSG Porter (you still owe me the keys to your blue 'Vette you Welcher!) said that the hardest thing we had to do was to get into shape and that it was his job to get us into shape. The easiest thing was to stay in shape and that that was up to us. I took that advice to heart. I've slipped recently, but I still hear that Welcher's voice in my head. ;)

Pat

[Last hard class]

So long as it's not on the "do not eat" list, I eat what, when, and as much as is wanted.




Regarding the substance in the can you are holding:

Which of your categories does it fall into?:D



LHC

[GratefulCitizen]

Regarding the substance in the can you are holding:

Which of your categories does it fall into?:D



LHC

That was nearly 13 years ago and it had the bad stuff in it (HFCS).
Has since been replaced by Guinness.

Consume 1-2 pints most evenings during the warmer months (don't like it during colder months).
Not on the banned list.
:D

[Trapper John]

TJ, since OChem gives me a migraine just saying the name, do you know if this response is triggered only by HFCS, or by fructose (or sucrose, or lactose) from any source? I'm just curious if the body "sees" and handles HFCS differently from other "sugars".

Good question and the short answer is I don't know. Now for MO: Fructose is a simple monosaccharide found in fruits and other plants at relatively low concentrations and as such is processed normally. HFCs are polymeric forms of fructose and in the concentrations we consume them, represent a distortion of the normal diet we are engineered to handle.

One of the hottest topics in molecular biology is the mechanisms by which cells recognize stressors in their local environment (e.g. pathogens, foreign proteins, breakdown products from injured cells, hypoxia, pH, metabolic disorders, etc.) and how they respond to these stressors. The central intracellular controlling platform appears to be what is called the Inflammasome. In the intestinal endothelial cells lining the large and small intestine, one of these inflammasome platorms (NLRP6) is central to maintaining the environment that promotes the normal microflora of the gut. When this altered by a variety of possible stressors (infection for example) the microflora changes. This change in the microflora has been shown to be capable of inducing obesity in mice and circumstantial evidence in morbidly obese humans suggests the same process.

I have been studying the inflammasome response to various stressors and have shown that different stressors and different durations of cellular exposure to the stressor, induce different inflammasome responses. Glucose at high concentrations or low concentrations is a stressor that induces different inflammsome responses. Although I have yet to do the pivotal experiments, it is my hypothesis that intestinal endothelial cells will see HFCs as a stressor and over time the inflammasome response will alter the intestinal microflora towards the obesity profile. My thinking is that we can pharmaceutically redirect the inflammasomal response to the normal type and therefore the microflora will revert to the normal type. The short-term solution is to watch out for HFCs in the diet (nearly impossible).

Given that the entire food processing industry depends on HFCs, I am not about to advocate banning HFCs. Just look at the brooh-hah-hah Bloomberg caused over sugary drinks (HFCs). I am looking for a pharmaceutical solution to the problem.

Oh and BTW, we got this point by banning Cuban imports (sugar cane) and we found a substitute (corn syrup). And who says there are not unintended consequences to well intended foreign policy. :D

Probably got more than you asked for didn't ya Bro? ;) Sorry, but you asked :p

[Bracholi]

My apologies all. My knowledge of chemistry is severely lacking.
“Using human embryonic kidney (HEK-293) to produce flavor enhancers …the aborted fetal tissue used to make Pepsi's flavor chemicals does not end up in the final product sold to customers…”
I didn't, and still don't, understand how the HEK-293 doesn't end up in the final product. I'm not trying to make waves, but it does appear I may have cannon-balled into a shark tank. I'll let this one go, but would like to see someone explain how one might extract a chemical from HEK-293, add it to a food, and then state that nothing of the original material made it into the food supply. :confused:

[ZonieDiver]

My apologies all. My knowledge of chemistry is severely lacking.
“Using human embryonic kidney (HEK-293) to produce flavor enhancers …the aborted fetal tissue used to make Pepsi's flavor chemicals does not end up in the final product sold to customers…”
I didn't, and still don't, understand how the HEK-293 doesn't end up in the final product. I'm not trying to make waves, but it does appear I may have cannon-balled into a shark tank. I'll let this one go, but would like to see someone explain how one might extract a chemical from HEK-293, add it to a food, and then state that nothing of the original material made it into the food supply. :confused:

Put the shovel down.

And...open some books, google some non-tinfoil sites, and read thoroughly.

Then report back.

Thanks.

And... switch to black coffee! Seriously, it makes life so much more simple!

[Trapper John]

Bracholi - I could give you a short answer to your question about HEKs, but I much prefer Zonie's advice, so I won't :p Looking forward to reading what you have learned. :D

[Bracholi]

Put the shovel down.

And...open some books, google some non-tinfoil sites, and read thoroughly.

Then report back.

Thanks.

And... switch to black coffee! Seriously, it makes life so much more simple!

After looking into it, I think the switch to drinking my coffee black makes sense. I'm thinking it may help me quit smoking as well. Thanks for the advice.

[Bracholi]

Bracholi - I could give you a short answer to your question about HEKs, but I much prefer Zonie's advice, so I won't :p Looking forward to reading what you have learned. :D

With this labyrinth of information and misinformation I figure I'll just wait until some reliable sourcing is available. So far the only things I can confirm is that HEK-293 is recovered from voluntarily aborted fetuses.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/mar/28/pepsico-denies-accusations-on-link-to-aborted-feta/?page=all
“What Pepsi is doing is saying that they’re not taking the cells directly from a fetus. Well, that’s true, they’re taking them from a lab,” Ms. Vinnedge said. “They’re doing this with semantics to get around what they’re really doing.”

“We really aren’t going after [Nestle and Kraft] like we are with Pepsi because Pepsi is still in the development stages,” Ms. Vinnedge said. “They can change it. They can say, ‘Let’s use a morally responsible cell line.’ “


So it appears I've been wrong about many things. The original argument, before being twisted equally by the two sides, isn't about the ends, it's about the means.

[Razor]

Probably got more than you asked for didn't ya Bro?

No, not at all. I had never even heard of inflammasomes until now, so I truly appreciate the education. I'm assuming, using a HS-level understanding of cell function, that the nucleus has at least a degree of control over these inflammasomes, or are they independent actors?

I would be very interested to see if its the molecular structure of the HFCS or simply the large amount of glucose that causes the inflammatory response, i.e., if I give someone enough HFCS or enough sucrose to result in equal amounts of glucose reaching the gut, is the response the same or markedly different? Most folks don't stop to consider the sheer amount of sugar-based calories they consume in a day when they pound down soda--its shocking, really, and I wonder if that knowledge would influence their daily drink choices.

Since the national sugar beet research facility is here in CO, I'm a strong proponent of limiting HFCS, and advocate for more research in creating HFBS...something has to replace the business lost by Magpul's move. ;)

[GratefulCitizen]

The short-term solution is to watch out for HFCs in the diet (nearly impossible).


True story.

I'm on the road for 230-300 miles/day in the UPS truck and another 200 miles/day commuting.
Given the location and time restrictions, finding poison-free food is difficult.

The driver who had this route before ate too much fast food, ended up with IBS, and eventually had to have a section of intestines removed.
I'm not taking any chances.

"Road" food and drink has pretty much been restricted to coffee, water, seeds, and nuts.
Only use real dairy and real sugar in coffee, and have to be careful about seeds/nuts (Planters and Frito-Lay stuff usually comes poison-free).

Food at home involves plenty of oatmeal (regular whole grain rolled oats) some "organic" stuff, and things recommended in Joel Fuhrman's GOMBBS diet.
Drink is limited to coffee, green tea, herbal teas, water, and Guinness beer.

A strange side-effect of the diet is changing taste preferences and reduced cravings/hunger.
Sometimes go 20 hours without eating and don't feel hungry.

The food tends to be more expensive, but your health is probably a good investment.
Possessions can be replaced or purchased in the future, lost health can't always be restored.

[Bracholi]

So after rummaging around the kitchen for a bit, it appears we're low on foods containing HFCS as it is. The exceptions being pop-tarts, nutrigrain bars, and karo syrup. My wife's now considering making our daughter home-made nutrigrain bars and pop-tarts from scratch.

Also, she's currently making Lactation Cookies, being as she's 40 weeks pregnant and should bring our son into the world any day now. I didn't realize how delicious a healthier cookie could be. I thought the use of dried oats in it would make a chewy cookie, but I was wrong. There isn't any noticeable difference in consistency. Good stuff.

Just made a run on spinach as well... I've never been a fan of any form of salad dressing/vinaigrette so I've actually never eaten a salad. I can however eat my weight in Spinach. So I now believe that a majority of my diet will be made up by bell peppers / spinach / onions / broccoli, stir fried in a small amount of olive oil and soy sauce.

[NurseTim]

I found this interesting.



http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwrel&v=dBnniua6-oM

[GratefulCitizen]

I would be very interested to see if its the molecular structure of the HFCS or simply the large amount of glucose that causes the inflammatory response, i.e., if I give someone enough HFCS or enough sucrose to result in equal amounts of glucose reaching the gut, is the response the same or markedly different? Most folks don't stop to consider the sheer amount of sugar-based calories they consume in a day when they pound down soda--its shocking, really, and I wonder if that knowledge would influence their daily drink choices.


Glucose vs fructose is addressed about the 45 minute mark.

I found this interesting.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwrel&v=dBnniua6-oM

Around the 41 minute mark he seems to summarize why steps 1 and 2 work in my suggestion.
Not so worried anymore about getting 70% of my calories from fat.

Good stuff NT, thanks for sharing.

<edit>
Finished the video.
Wow.

Have a few more adjustments to make to the household diet.
Don't consume much sucrose, but definitely going to address it...especially with regards to my kids.
:eek:

[GratefulCitizen]

Watching that video prompted action.
Been doing something about sugar for the past 5 weeks.

Age/activity level:
-41 years old.
-Don't "work out".

Get about 2-4 hrs per day of natural movement hauling around boxes in the afternoon, but it doesn't really rise to the level of "working out".
Spend most of the day sitting (driving or at home).

Cut sugar completely for 3 weeks, excepting what occurred naturally in berries and other plant foods.
Gradually been letting a little back in for the past 2 weeks.

Satisfied with results.

Within 3 days, I could take deeper breaths and had more torso flexibility.
Must have something to do with "visceral" fat.

Prior to cutting sugar, weighed in the low 180 lb range (at 6'2") and the body fat scale would read 13-15% (weight had been stable, body fat was gradually lowering).
Blood pressure was often reading above 120/80 and morning RHR was around 52-56 bpm (both had been creeping up recently).

Weight is in the low 170 lb range now with body fat reading 9-11% (tonight it was 171 lbs and 8%).
Blood pressure is back under 120/80 and morning RHR is 43-48 bpm.


Told a customer about what I was doing so he tried it and is getting results.

He has serious weight problems, digestive tract issues, and gout.
He's dropped 10 lbs in 3 weeks with no issues other than some minor fatigue.


Looks like the guy in the video may be on to something.

[Trapper John]

No, not at all. I had never even heard of inflammasomes until now, so I truly appreciate the education. I'm assuming, using a HS-level understanding of cell function, that the nucleus has at least a degree of control over these inflammasomes, or are they independent actors?

Sorry it took so long to get back to answering your question. The short answer is Yes but there is feedback - one regulating the other. I've attached a pretty good paper by one of the leaders in the field.

We can follow up with a discussion of how HFCS (or high doses of glucose) are stressors that effect the gut microbiota and that is what promotes obesity. HFCS is just a more concentrated form of fructose and in the continual levels we are ingesting them induce the change in the gut microbiota via the inflammasome. I suspect that fructose is more potent at inducing this effect than glucose, but haven't done the critical experiments to prove that point yet.

Hope this helps. More later.

[Dusty]

Just make pinole squares and make sure you mix in some chia. Spread with peanut butter. You can go all day on a couple.

[sinjefe]

Watching that video prompted action.
Been doing something about sugar for the past 5 weeks.

Age/activity level:
-41 years old.
-Don't "work out".

Get about 2-4 hrs per day of natural movement hauling around boxes in the afternoon, but it doesn't really rise to the level of "working out".
Spend most of the day sitting (driving or at home).

Cut sugar completely for 3 weeks, excepting what occurred naturally in berries and other plant foods.
Gradually been letting a little back in for the past 2 weeks.

Satisfied with results.

Within 3 days, I could take deeper breaths and had more torso flexibility.
Must have something to do with "visceral" fat.

Prior to cutting sugar, weighed in the low 180 lb range (at 6'2") and the body fat scale would read 13-15% (weight had been stable, body fat was gradually lowering).
Blood pressure was often reading above 120/80 and morning RHR was around 52-56 bpm (both had been creeping up recently).

Weight is in the low 170 lb range now with body fat reading 9-11% (tonight it was 171 lbs and 8%).
Blood pressure is back under 120/80 and morning RHR is 43-48 bpm.


Told a customer about what I was doing so he tried it and is getting results.

He has serious weight problems, digestive tract issues, and gout.
He's dropped 10 lbs in 3 weeks with no issues other than some minor fatigue.


Looks like the guy in the video may be on to something.

GC,

Normally I enjoy reading your posts. This one, however, has forced me to come to the conclusion that you are a dork.

[frostfire]

I found this interesting.



http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwrel&v=dBnniua6-oM

good stuff...makes me reevaluate lots of thing
Some of my habits that has helped since childhood are I don't drink soft drink because it hurts my throat and I don't use salad dressing because the main course is normally flavorful enough that I can just toss it in. At the same time, my consumption of processed/instant meal and using fastfood joints as ruck destination definitely need revision

Thanks for the self empirical study GC, and lol at sinjefe post...you can count me in the dork category too. I think you meant very analytical and methodical though :D INTJ all the way!

[GratefulCitizen]

Thanks for the self empirical study GC, and lol at sinjefe post...you can count me in the dork category too. I think you meant very analytical and methodical though :D INTJ all the way!

INTJ...very much so.
Most of my close friends are also INTJ.

Still have some workout logs somewhere tracking what exercise routines got the best results for the least amount of workout time.
Also tried different supplements and diets to see how they worked.

<Break>

Sinjefe, you're just now figuring out that I'm a dork?:D
Thought it was pretty evident in the exchanges with Nmap 4-5 years ago.
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18342