left eye dominant

[frostfire]

I have been paying it forward and doing knowledge dump on several 18 and 38 series. I came across two left eye dominant right handed students. Tight group shots but to the left of 300m targets on paper qual. So far we've done turning the head slightly to the right for pistol and closing/covering the left eye for rifle paper qual. This yields decent success. They also did well shooting weak/left hand. Iirc master gene econ wrote here once that eye dominance is conditioned and can be changed, but I don't think that approach works with these two.

There are tons of cumulative instructing knowledge on this forum so i'd like to solicit what technique and drills have you done to enable these type of shooters to execute surgical proficiency with both rifle and pistol.

Much obliged:)

[Old Dog New Trick]

I'm assuming you are trying to get them to shoot with both eyes open. Is that right?

I have always suffered LED but grew up right handed. It takes lots and lots of practice. Repetition acquiring the weapon sights with both eyes open and teaching the brain to correctly identify the weapon that is not the ghost but the one that bullets are coming out of...

In my case even after more than three decades of shooting I see two handguns on full extension. My brain can quickly identify the correct one which for a right handed, left eye dominant (LED) person is the image on the left as seen by my right eye. This can be quickly confirmed by temporarily closing my left eye. Upon opening both eyes the ghost weapon reapears and is slightly off to the right and the sights are severely angled (out of alignment), the sights I'm looking through right eye, right hand are perfectly lined up. It's become automatic for me. Sometimes when shooting offhand I just go with left eye, left hand.

With long guns the only problem (I incountered) which is quickly correctable is to not over rotate the weapon (bad cheek weld) to shoot right handed left eye. On quick (front post) shooting it's the same...I see two front sights...I use the left one.

Practice, practice, practice...don't even need bullets. Just bring the weapon into position on an aiming point, confirm correct sight picture by closing the non preferred eye and train the brain. If you are using Tritium (night) sights on the handguns this is especially useful by lowing the lights and practice aligning the correct three dot pattern, because now the shooter is going to see five or six green dots. I say five because for me sometimes the front sight of the ghost weapon lines up with the right rear of the real weapon, so there is some overlap with both eyes open. Again just close left eye quickly to confirm, then it's pretty easy to stay on sights while scanning with both eyes open.

I don't know if that helps you, but it's what works for me.

[Badger52]

Iirc master gene econ wrote here once that eye dominance is conditioned and can be changed, but I don't think that approach works with these two.I personally don't think eye dominance is such a black & white issue. I have seen eye dominance change in people over time, with & without corrective lenses. Not sure what other occupational or biological factors drive that. Having also dealt with that myself, after decades of being RH-RED and now LED, it may come down to defining what's the quickest-to-execute and most trainable for retention workaround. Also depends on what level of accuracy you're striving for, but if it works for the shooter there are no limits on off-dominance capability.

For me, long-gun was the easier of the two as I've always slightly squinted the left eye anyway to some extent based on level of precision desired. Full extension on the pistol, for me, is a much more instinct-driven thing and I found that slightly squinting the right eye IF I wanted real precision helped - chose that way because that's how the pistol comes up, a classic eye-dominance test with gun in hand. A couple of rimfire shooters I worked with, not wearing a blinder on one eye, found that even the slightest amount of squint helped and became natural after a very short time. Not closing the "off" eye at all, just enough to cause some degradation that makes the non-dominant (on the dominant side) take over. Kinda like when someone gives you the proverbial hairy eyeball. It doesn't take much to make that 'second' front sight disappear; making it disappear is, imho, better than asking the brain to make a choice for you.

Whatever works to achieve the result that is easily repeated by the student is, I think, where you want to go. Old Dog New Trick said what to do when that's found: practice. When it gets down to the details, even those two may have differences in how they learn. Thread tagged & I'd be interested in a link for the ref you made to "conditioning" of eye dominance.
Good topic, thanks.

[SF18C]

I am also one of those “jacked up” left-handed types who had to grow up in a right-handed world. For the record, I am Right Eye Dominate.

I write left-handed but I throw baseballs/footballs right handed. I eat (use utensils) with my left hand but use scissors with my right hand. When I was younger I sometimes didn’t know if I was left or right handed to do something until I tried it…golf being an example (FWIW…I suck no matter what side I am using!) I have always been a challenge to sports coaches, shooting instructors and anything requiring a moderate amount of hand-eye coordination (and my wife says I can’t two-step worth a crap either!)

I grew up learning to shoot rifles right handed. As a kid, I never really shot handguns with much regularity. When I went to basic, I shot well enough (RH) with an M16. It was not until I hit SF and started shooting pistols that I had to figure out which hand to use. Thru persistence, practice and pure frustration I finally figured how to shoot handguns with my left hand and right eye dominance.

So what do I do? For handguns I tend to “pull” the gun across my body just a little more to the right to achieve the proper sight picture with my right eye, allowing me to keep both eyes open. However, this “pull “to the right makes me angle my wrist back to the left, ever so slightly. I don’t have a whole lot of advice on how to “cross-over” on a rifle but I suppose you would have to “tilt” your head over farther…sounds uncomfortable to me.


As O.D.N.T. said, the bottom line is to understand your situation and “find your way to Carnegie Hall” practice, practice, practice!


Side notes:
1) My daughter is LH and LED but she shoots pistol RIGHT HANDED and rifle LEFT HANDED (totally opposite of me) but I “know” her issues and can help her with her marksmanship drills.
2) I was always the “fastest” at transition drills from M4 to M9 pistol…I never had to take my right hand off the pistol grip of the M4 and could just drop my left hand and draw my M9 and fire!!!

[Bill Burt]

I'm right handed but left eye dominant. As several before me have said there are quite a few ways to deal with that. I've trained myself to slightly squint my left eye when shooting which forces my right eye to take over. My middle son is also right handed but left eye dominant. I place a piece of tape over the left lense of his shooting glasses and that seems to work just fine.

[Streck-Fu]

Is there no option for them to shoot the rifle left handed? I am right handed and LED and have always shot rifles left handed. Hand dominance is really a non-issue in handling a rifle. It even makes transitions easier when they drop the rifle with the left hand and draw the handgun with the right.

[Badger52]

For handguns I tend to “pull” the gun across my body just a little more to the right to achieve the proper sight picture with my right eye, allowing me to keep both eyes open. However, this “pull “to the right makes me angle my wrist back to the left, ever so slightly.Ditto, although I'm a mirror of you. I suspect we can articulate this because we're aware of it, but I'll bet it's an almost imperceptible distance the gun would be in some "non-traditional" line - but enough to get it done & let our "best" eye take over.

I should've added in first post above that while I am now RH-LED, that occurred only in later years and for decades figured that anyone that wasn't "matched up" was 'broke'. Heavily RH, still, but eyes change. A fine & empathetic optometrist who began working with me after a year when some match scores went in the toilet has still not been able to tell me what causes this change.

Frostfire, strictly out of curiosity, do either of your students have any corrective issues with their vision, past or current, and were they always cross-dominant?

[frostfire]

thanks for all the inputs so far. I myself slightly squint my left eye to get clearer front sight when doing "flash" front sight and pushing for sub 1 second with plates at 10 yards and beyond. Never knew that squinting can "undo" eye dominance and let the other eye take over. I should have them try that next. FWIW, for weak hand shooting, I completely close my right eye and have been able to sling lead very fast and still maintain surgical accuracy ie. the Roger's shooting school weak hand stage, 10-8 drill, and CSAT standard # 6

I'm assuming you are trying to get them to shoot with both eyes open. Is that right?



preferrably, but not necessarily. Just to do whatever needed to meet the drill standards, while still relevant to two-way range application

Thread tagged & I'd be interested in a link for the ref you made to "conditioning" of eye dominance.
Good topic, thanks.

this is one of them:
http://professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7649&highlight=eye


2) I was always the “fastest” at transition drills from M4 to M9 pistol…I never had to take my right hand off the pistol grip of the M4 and could just drop my left hand and draw my M9 and fire!!!

distance wise, not sure how that results in faster draw. I mean there are longer distance from the rail to holster than from pistol grip to holster regardless of type of holster of location. You sure it wasn't just the other guys being slower? Kiddin! Just kiddin! :D
I've managed to get one 38A do it in 1.48 seconds from rifle click to pistol click. Economy of motion all the way. Dry run though....so probably with live rounds there will be no hole on the A zone at all hehehe

[Bill Burt]

Is that 1.48 seconds from the time the last rifle round is fired to the time the first pistol round goes down range? If so, are you training them in the punch out technique and are they squeezing the first shot off as they extend their arms as soon as their eyes transition from target to front sight?

[ZonieDiver]

Well, if all else fails, you can always "go all snake-eyed"!:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx0zC22C4RM

[Team Sergeant]

I have been paying it forward and doing knowledge dump on several 18 and 38 series. I came across two left eye dominant right handed students. Tight group shots but to the left of 300m targets on paper qual. So far we've done turning the head slightly to the right for pistol and closing/covering the left eye for rifle paper qual. This yields decent success. They also did well shooting weak/left hand. Iirc master gene econ wrote here once that eye dominance is conditioned and can be changed, but I don't think that approach works with these two.

There are tons of cumulative instructing knowledge on this forum so i'd like to solicit what technique and drills have you done to enable these type of shooters to execute surgical proficiency with both rifle and pistol.

Much obliged:)

You're kidding me right?

Have you not read how much I've written on this very subject? Use the search button.
If you'd like to understand absolute precision talk to one of the doctors, lawyers, law enforcement or military folks I've trained to shoot holes through holes.
It has nothing to do with being left eye dominant.
Yoda

[miclo18d]

I have found that many instructors when they come across an opposite eye domination problem resort to the Catholic nunnery method of teaching shooting techniques.... beat it out of them (aka I've never encountered this before so I will make them learn the way I shoot).

I remember one of my first encounters with opposite eye dominance. I was an augment instructor for SFAUC, standing out on a range in Bragg and watching this CPT shoot and as I was watching a group of about 5 I kept going back because something was off about this guy and after about 5 minutes I realized that he was shooting rifle with his left hand and pistol with his right. I talked to him about eye dominance asked him if he was comfortable shooting like that and let him get at it. He had never really shot 2 gun CQB style before and just didn't have time on the gun. His accuracy was more a function of other fundamentals like grip and trigger pull.

No use in fighting it unless you just can't get it and everyone starts nicknaming you "Escopeta Bob", "Shotgun" (This may or may not have been a similar nick given to my 1st TS), or John "couldn't-hit-the-side-of-a-barn-from-2-ft-away" Smith or something to that effect.

My Mother-in-Law is LED and Shoots Righty with the gun moved slightly left to her Dominant eye. I gave the basics, did an eye dominance test on her, gave her instruction on Safety and fundamentals and shot with her several times. She was a very accurate shot and a good student. I told her not to fight the eye dominance, and that it would just make it that much harder. For a Vacation, my In-laws went to a shooting course and the instructors tried to break her of shooting like that. She told them that her Son-in-Law was SF and he taught her to shoot like that and that she wouldn't change for them...they left her alone. She is very matriarchal ;)

[Bill Burt]

It seems to me that when someone is left eye dominent, but right handed you only have a few options, they can either be taught to shoot their long guns left handed while aiming with the dominent left eye, or shoot them with their dominent right hand while aiming with their right eye. Shooting right handed and left eyed with a long gun doesn't seem to me to be conducive to good form. In my son's case he ends up trying to twist his head over the top of the stock to get his left eye lined up.

In his case it's been easier to learn to use his right eye than his left hand. For me that was the determining factor.

In terms of transition speed from rifle to pistol all a right handed shooter has to do is train himself to ground the rifle with his left hand while drawing with his right. In the competions I participate in we carry two pistols, in my case double strong side. So which way the stage requires me to move determines which pistol comes out first. That in turn dictates which hand is used to ground/pick up a long gun. If I'm holstering with my left hand I ground/pick up the long gun with my right and vice versa.

For example: http://youtu.be/15DuGfgujf0

[PSM]

My son is LED and shoots long gun left handed and handgun right handed/left eye. Transitioning should be easy for him but I have not seen him run both, yet.

He grew up ambidextrous but settled on right handedness sometime in elementary school. I encouraged him to remain ambi in case one hand got injured he could still do his homework. That might be the reason he stopped. :D

Pat

[frostfire]

Is that 1.48 seconds from the time the last rifle round is fired to the time the first pistol round goes down range? If so, are you training them in the punch out technique and are they squeezing the first shot off as they extend their arms as soon as their eyes transition from target to front sight?

second click with pistol at full extension.


You're kidding me right?

Have you not read how much I've written on this very subject? Use the search button.
If you'd like to understand absolute precision talk to one of the doctors, lawyers, law enforcement or military folks I've trained to shoot holes through holes.
It has nothing to do with being left eye dominant.
Yoda

well, TS, I have a word file of archived marksmanship discussion here since 2004 especially posts by you, NDD, Peregrino, TR, LR, Gene and many others.
My way, or the better way. Obviously your way is better as you're a bona fide instructor. Hell, I never even claim to be an instructor, only a grateful soul eager to share everything he's been privileged to know/given by those BTDT. In fact, I'm still grateful over some gems you told me at Blade show in ATL few years back. You probably don't remember. Even in my daily job, every month or so I'd come across "certain folks" who are enthusiastic in sharing tips/tricks to one eager to learn on how to get better straight from his OTC curriculum.

Speaking of archived discussions...you wrote once to come see you for training once one can do 100 push ups, 100 sit ups, and 20 pull ups. Is the invitation still valid? :D

[Team Sergeant]

second click with pistol at full extension.




well, TS, I have a word file of archived marksmanship discussion here since 2004 especially posts by you, NDD, Peregrino, TR, LR, Gene and many others.
My way, or the better way. Obviously your way is better as you're a bona fide instructor. Hell, I never even claim to be an instructor, only a grateful soul eager to share everything he's been privileged to know/given by those BTDT. In fact, I'm still grateful over some gems you told me at Blade show in ATL few years back. You probably don't remember. Even in my daily job, every month or so I'd come across "certain folks" who are enthusiastic in sharing tips/tricks to one eager to learn on how to get better straight from his OTC curriculum.

Speaking of archived discussions...you wrote once to come see you for training once one can do 100 push ups, 100 sit ups, and 20 pull ups. Is the invitation still valid? :D

You make it to the Phoenix area and I'll do the training.;)

[Bill Burt]

I'm not a combat shooter (obviously), but I do shoot competitively. I'm curious as to why you can't shoot the first round as you're still extending your arms? That's a standard technique for many world champions in my discipline. Most of us shoot as soon as we see the target behind our sights. I'm definitely not criticizing, just curious. As long as you hit the target why not?

[Team Sergeant]

I'm not a combat shooter (obviously), but I do shoot competitively. I'm curious as to why you can't shoot the first round as you're still extending your arms? That's a standard technique for many world champions in my discipline. Most of us shoot as soon as we see the target behind our sights. I'm definitely not criticizing, just curious. As long as you hit the target why not?

Game shooting and real world shooting are two different worlds. In the real world you have to take other people into account. I don't think many game shooters have humans standing next to or in front of their intended targets. It's why we (Special Forces soldiers) learn to shoot with surgical precision.

[Bill Burt]

Game shooting and real world shooting are two different worlds. In the real world you have to take other people into account. I don't think many game shooters have humans standing next to or in front of their intended targets. It's why we (Special Forces soldiers) learn to shoot with surgical precision.

Yep, you're definitely right on that one, we generally avoid shooting when there are people down range, it's frowned upon. For SASS shooters a hit is a hit, no extra points for xring, even an edger counts. We do occassionally do trick shots like shooting through a quarter sized hole at 18-21 feet with a revolver, but that's rare and most can't do it.

[Tuukka]

Just my personal experience, I am left handed, right eye dominant.

I shoot both short and long weapons left handed.

Shooting SMGs/rifles ( and pistols ) both eyes open has not been an issue, atleast I have not seen it as something that would hinder my performance with long guns, either with iron sights or red dot / variable power scopes.

In the Army I shot well in the range quals and due to my civilian shooting background, our instructor was pushing me for a slot in the sniper NCO course, but I declined that offer to go to a another unit. Also shot well in our applied training shoots later on.

I shoot both pistol and rifle IPSC at a national level, ie. I was on our national IPSC Open class rifle team between 2009-2012 and I am now in the Production class national pistol team.

Like said above, have not noticed any limitation to my performance from cross eye dominance.

[Ken Cox]

I prefer my left hand, and have right eye dominance due to an eye injury incurred during my teen years (I recovered from the injury but remained right-eyed).

The Marine Corps of the 1960's and 70's taught me to let my dominant eye determine which hand I used.

With handguns, I shoot comfortably with either hand. I lead with the opposite foot to the shooting hand, and line up my right eye behind the sights. Because I lead with the opposite foot as the hand, I don't need to tilt my head in order to line up my eye with the sights.

Once I have gun in hand, I feel equally comfortable with either hand. That said, I feel more comfortable carrying on my left side and drawing from my left side.

Regarding long arms, I shoot right-handed. Although my left eye has the same acuity as my right eye, I don't seem to process what I see through my left eye the same way I process visual information through my right eye. My Marine Corps instructors described that as normal, and the reason for using the dominant eye as the sighting eye.

One can re-train the eyes. Near and far distance contact lenses take advantage of, or rely upon, the ability of the brain's visual processor to learn new tasks. Nonetheless, one can more easily and reliably train the musculo-skeletal system than the visual system.

Take the easier and proven path: right-eyed, shoot right-handed; left-eyed, shoot left-handed.

To teach or learn the opposite hand, do everything very slowly and deliberately, and alternate left and right with each shot. The two sides of the body will observe each other and learn from each other, very quickly. It greatly helps to think positively and to not tell yourself you can't use your other hand. Observe how each hand and body-hand organization performs the task, without verbally judging the two hands.

By the way, alternating hands with each shot, at least with a handgun, will bring about an almost instantaneous improvement in the strong hand. The improvement quickly plateau's, though. Still, an easy and quick way to get a noticeable performance gain in one afternoon of shooting.

Just do 14 rounds; odd rounds left-handed and even rounds right-handed, alternating left and right with each shot, taking your time and observing how each hand does the job (without judgement), and enjoy a noticeable improvement in your dominant hand.