View Full Version : F-35 - Necessary Modernization or Boondoggle?
F-35 by the numbers. :eek:
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
BY THE NUMBERS: The Most Expensive Jet Ever Built
BusInsider, 17 Mar 2013
http://www.propublica.org/special/the-most-expensive-fighter-jet-ever-built-by-the-numbers#ixzz2No7GcWVl
longrange1947
03-17-2013, 09:23
While I am all for updating and modernization, and having come from a family that worked with McDonnell Aircraft Company, then McDonnell/Douglas, this is a boondoggle that has gotten out of control.
I will admit that part of it, as always, is the services not being able to make up their mind on specs. However, the technology was not where they thought it was and thus this sucker has grown legs and hair. I would put it on the chopping block and put up notice that this type of BS will always result in a dropped project. That notice needs to go to not only the industry, but the services as well.
Just my 2 cents. :munchin
The Reaper
03-17-2013, 10:05
The problem is that given the lead time, we have no alternatives, and current airframes are running out of service life/options.
The Harriers are at the end of their lives. They don't make them anymore, and even the Brits are dropping them.
What do we propose to replace them with? Same for the Super Hornet, F-15 and F-16 replacements.
The program should have been more closely supervised, penalties assessed for missing milestones and cost goals, and alternatives developed years ago.
Of course, given the pitiful Osprey, I guess the pattern has been set.
TR
UWOA (RIP)
03-17-2013, 10:58
I vote: boondoggle. From what I've read, there are no other nations close to matching us in air power or its associated technology. IMHO this is just another example of empire ... boys with toys ... building. It's not the result of threat analysis.
And before someone makes the argument that we need to preserve the defense industry -- after Pearl Harbor we re-tooled and produced a massive amount of armaments in less than two years. Given today's technology and infrastructure, that timeframe would be reduced. We are an insular power; it is why our strategies are based on power projection -- and it is also why we continue to enjoy a lag time before a response is required (obviously excluding MAD scenarios).
UWOA (RIP)
03-17-2013, 11:00
Make drones bigger.
And make them para-drop capable .... Can you jump a drone?
I never knew how much was spent on this plane. Fricking CRAZY!!!!
As far as the fact that we have no alternatives, and current airframes are running out of service life/options; I call BS on that. Yes, on paper and .ppt shows it is true. But like UWOA no one can touch us currently or for the last 20+ years.
The F-22 Raptor is the world's first stealth air-to-air fighter and was/is developed to replace the F-15C in the air superiority role.
History as I know it. Boeing Corp designed and built the X-32 prototype and Lockheed Martin team developed the X-35. The X-35 was selected as the winner. Both were built to replace the F-16 and the A-10 for the USAF. USN and USMC have their variant for aircraft carriers and SVOT.
So with all of that, the F-22's main task is to get air superiority, while the F-35's/JSF's main task is to attack ground targets. Well having being supported by all of the replacements, A-10, F-16, F-16, F-18, ETC; we don't need to change them. IMO I feel we should stop the funding of the F-35 ASAP. F-22 is in production, so fix the small issues with it. I feel we need something slow to replace the A-10. IMO I don't think we need to replace the A-10. Just take the currently air frame and update it and all the electronics and guidance systems. They are great, flying in slow and low and what they bring to the battlefield.
My niece’s husband is an F-22 pilot and says that the F-22 smokes the F-35 and DoD should have dropped the whole program back in 2006 or 2007. Everyone knows it is a money pit, except for the people in our government that are getting all these kickbacks.
As far as the states and all these workers; I get that many will lose their jobs. With the way things are now, even more will than if this program would have been stopped back in 2005. 2005 is when it was known that the plane cost too much.
I'm not one to know about how stuff works in the Air. But talking to in-laws I know many say what is the slack time to develop a different fighter for ground troops support? What would be less expensive and better at this point? New line of F-16/F-15's? Well how much does the F-15T cost, I know it's a lot and comparable to 2 JSFs, not including research which has already been done? How much would a new line of F-16's with uber upgrades cost? Also a lot and how long to make?? Ok, another option is a new plane. Well, you have to do all the research on that new plane again?? New prototypes AGAIN!! You know those congressional people types want their state monies and all that. Even the F-16/F-15 may have to retire by then, because the USAF keeps saying their soooo ooooooooooold, anyway. Now because of "rules" we can't produce more F/A-22's to fill the gap. I've read and been told that there's the FB-22 Strike Raptor option but again, more R&D and more time than we have. Then you have the ONE Company making every service AC or every mission. CORP America will bitch to their congressional people types again. You run into the F/A-18 C/D and F/A-18 E/F problem again as far as it not being able to be built along with the Harrier. Soooooooooooo, let's look at solutions that those congressional people types are looking at, likely (NOT). All in the $$$$$.
The US DoD can produce the F-35 or we can spend more time we don't have making and developing another type of Prototype or aircraft. So what other options do we have open??
Is it a Boondoggle or not?? All on what side you’re on.
We keep selling F-16 and F-15 to other countries and these countries are not helping out on funding of the F-35. But they all want it once it is in full production. WHATEVER!!
I find it VERY FUNNY on how back in 2002 the F-35 was more cost effective. Ha-ha ROTFLMAO now!!
ddoering
03-17-2013, 13:43
I agree. Look at the B-52. Still flying. I wonder how many times they were said to have reached the end of their service life.
Depends on who's district you live in
Depends on who's district you live in
Bingo!
It doesn't matter if you're talking about Republicans or Democrats. Its all about the money, for them and their cronies. Every time we talk about budget cuts to defense spending its the line units who get affected first and the most. I can't go to the range for the rest of the year because we are "out of ammo", but programs like this keep getting funded. I also wonder how many general officer positions are going to be cut with the proposed troop draw down. My guess is none.
BMT (RIP)
03-17-2013, 14:59
http://www.stripes.com/news/us/dod-report-f-35-training-is-premature-1.212100#.UUYj3HvyYAw.twitter
BMT
MK262MOD1
03-17-2013, 15:14
That last article is a bit misleading. The restrictions on the jet are not because of the jet but rather the local complaints about things like noise etc. At least that's my understanding. I know a bunch of the current crop of 35 pilots and can ask them next week.
Roguish Lawyer
04-15-2013, 16:49
http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/the-pentagons-new-trillion-dollar-jet-is-a-garbage-can
:munchin
Well this follows the contractor motto…a problem NOT solved today is worth money tomorrow!
longrange1947
04-15-2013, 19:48
I will say it again, it is a boondoggle.
mark46th
04-15-2013, 20:59
What would Kelly Johnson say?
Badger52
04-16-2013, 12:48
What would Kelly Johnson say?Great point. After starting during WW-II and building P-38's (which she loved to see roaring back in from the ocean at low-level following test flights), Mom worked with Kelly Johnson in the skunk works thru U-2 and the beginning of the SR-71 programs.
He would have already thrown (politely) some people into the LA reservoir. Lockheed development was known for high-performance, under-budget & ahead of schedule.
A different country then. C-130 is still going strong too.
F-35: Ditch it. Then again, people keep voting the same non-performers to go to DC year after year...
:rolleyes:
Speaking of Kelly Johnson, this just arrived in my inbox:
The Challenge of Transporting the A-12s to Area 51 - V.2 (http://www.roadrunnersinternationale.com/transporting_the_a-12.html)
Badger52
04-16-2013, 13:30
Speaking of Kelly Johnson, this just arrived in my inbox:
The Challenge of Transporting the A-12s to Area 51 - V.2 (http://www.roadrunnersinternationale.com/transporting_the_a-12.html)THANK YOU! All the pics were great, but I've never seen those particular photos inside the plant. If someone did that CONOP and route recon today in PPT they'd be looking for another 117 slides. LOL.
While not understanding the term "horizontal" like I do now I got the sense, confirmed by readings, that Johnson's engineers had the freedom of action to work directly with fabricators and changes/improvements were very much done on the fly and, if approved, a new drawing made and kept the blueprint & microfilm gal (Mom) hopping. I wonder what the heirarchy currently looks like...
That was really cool.
miclo18d
04-16-2013, 14:27
Many military projects take on lives of their own. What usually keeps these duds going is that someone's (high up) career is usually attached to it and that person usually has enough political clout to not want to look like they dragged a dead cat into the room with them, so they hook the dead cat up to a bunch of machines and keep hiring in people that tell them that the cat is indeed still alive and will actually be better than before if they can just throw some more money at it.
This is the same disease that AGW has taken on and if I remember right the M2 Bradley was one of those V-22 Osprey type of projects where they were going to MAKE it work no matter what.
BTW those A-12 pics were cool, I still have to read the article. I've been out in that area training back in the early 90s and before my 06 AFG deployment and I think I recognized one of those roads. Not sure of their exact route but....WOW!
Badger52
04-18-2013, 19:09
Many military projects take on lives of their own. What usually keeps these duds going is that someone's (high up) career is usually attached to it and that person usually has enough political clout to not want to look like they dragged a dead cat into the room with them, so they hook the dead cat up to a bunch of machines and keep hiring in people that tell them that the cat is indeed still alive and will actually be better than before if they can just throw some more money at it.That is one of the most astute things I've ever heard on the topic.
Thanks - priceless.
That is one of the most astute things I've ever heard on the topic.
Thanks - priceless.
Add to that the number of jobs in a given congressional district and many things that should have died a long time ago stick around, regardless of whether DOD needs or wants it.
We do need to keep ahed of the others in the air, however the F-35 Charlie Foxtrot is a symptom of the deeper problems of this county ie putting personal gain over the country and the loss of morals and anything goes attitude we have today.When did these deeper problems not face America?
miclo18d
04-19-2013, 04:00
After reading that website about Kelly Johnson and the Skunkworks, it's quite apparent what we need. Good people with great ideas with enough autonomy to get the job done without politics or price involved. That story that went along with the A-12/SR-71 project was incredible, it's like the story of Special Forces...just getting the job done no matter what it takes.
Dozer523
04-19-2013, 06:54
?... And before someone makes the argument that we need to preserve the defense industry -- after Pearl Harbor we re-tooled and produced a massive amount of armaments in less than two years. . . .
True. And don't forget (since Pearl Herbor) we've figured out to make wars last as long as we want. :( It ain't pink for a reason.