View Full Version : Bitterness and unease in bankrupt Zimbabwe
Bitterness and unease in bankrupt Zimbabwe
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/8551616.stm
"After 30 years in power, Zimbabwe's veteran leader Robert Mugabe said this week he was ready to stand for another term as president. BBC Africa correspondent Andrew Harding finds Mr Mugabe's party in angry mood, and others - the white minority and the former opposition MDC party - full of foreboding.................."
After running the country into the ground for the last 30 years he and his party still blame the west for all their problems. The reporter got to throw in his two cents.........
"...........Many white Zimbabweans have been slow to acknowledge the debt they owe to the black majority here. Economic empowerment is clearly necessary........."
Do whites under 30 have a debt?
Pete
They deserve what they created........
Hopefully some day they will dig them selfs out of the hole they created but not anytime soon.
Guymullins
03-03-2013, 08:21
Prime Minister Ian Smith said "There will be a drop in standards with majority rule."
The entire world, including the cold war enemies Russia and America united to force simple majority rule on Rhodesia and South Africa, despite the multiple examples of its failure in the rest of Africa. Thanks guys, good job.
MK262MOD1
03-03-2013, 08:53
I always feel for Rhodesia. Her future is bleak.
Badger52
03-03-2013, 11:00
Do whites under 30 have a debt?Good question. Change the age & it could be applied in many places where such debt will never be shed, it is inherited. Like bad Songbun in NK, or the NY-reload in politics with the race card.
The entire world, including the cold war enemies Russia and America united to force simple majority rule on Rhodesia and South Africa, despite the multiple examples of its failure in the rest of Africa. Thanks guys, good job.Purest of motives I'm sure.
"This time it'll be different."
:rolleyes:
ZonieDiver
03-03-2013, 11:06
Prime Minister Ian Smith said "There will be a drop in standards with majority rule."
The entire world, including the cold war enemies Russia and America united to force simple majority rule on Rhodesia and South Africa, despite the multiple examples of its failure in the rest of Africa. Thanks guys, good job.
You're welcome.
Peregrino
03-03-2013, 11:55
Just one more example to prove the adage that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Though I doubt seriously that the Marxist Internationale that forced the embargos on Rhodesia and South Africa gave a shit about "good intentions". Another victory for world socialism - tear down anything successful so everyone (except the annointed leaders) is even more miserable than when they started; then put the corrupt, incompetent thugs who butchered their way to power in charge to see to it that nothing ever rises out of the resultant cesspool again. (And everyone wonders why "progressives" hate the 2nd Amendment.)
To me, Rhodesia is THE standard for understanding the catastrophic failures of liberal western foreign policy.
I'm no expert on Rhodesia, but I've read everything I can on it, and enjoyed time I've spent with Rhodesians/Zimbabweans trying to get a grasp on what happened.
The way I understand it(based on reading and talking to Rhodesians) Ian Smith and the Rhodesian Government/people/tribal chiefs has a plan that would have seen an achievable transition to majority rule in approx 25 years.
And the West dropped them like a hot potato for not moving fast enough.....like all of the "insta-democracy" efforts of the era that pretty much all ended in abject failure.
Which to me is a bit like insisting on driving a dangerous but achievable journey at an arbitrary 5X the recommended speed limit just to get to the destination faster.
What could possibly go wrong? Right? :mad:
I have the utmost respect for veterans from the US/Canada/UK/OZ/NZ who volunteered to serve there.
How much negative press did Mugabe, the left's darling, get when his North Korean trained 5th brigade committed mass genocide with the Gukurahundi....executing tens of thousands in ethnic cleansing of the Matabele people(Mugabe is Shona) and power consolidation?
Not nearly as much as Op Dingo and other cross border ops into Mozambique, where a handful of RLI/SAS/Selous Scouts Rhodie Security Forces attacked legitimate insurgent camps supporting incursions into Rhodesia with great success only to be bashed in western mass media for "slaughtering innocent civilians in refugee camps".
As I understand it, Ian Smith was able to walk freely in Harare's worst ghettos and shanty towns without fear of reprisal until he had to move to South Africa for health reasons in the middle of the last decade.
Whereas Mugabe can't seem to go anywhere in less than regimental strength.
I was there in 2009 when President Obama "won" the Nobel Prize.......when Morgan Tsvangirai in Zimbabwe had literally been to hell and back leading the Movement for Democratic Change in Zimbabwe paying an exceptionally high personal price for his efforts.
The average African I met was mostly asking me "WTF just happened?"
But the Nobel Prize for Peace is another corrupt and polluted institution.
Meh.....makes me angry.....especially the Left's failure to reflect on it's failure and instead effectively erasing it from ever having happened.
Thank god for the internet, some decent books, and the opportunity to travel and meet folks who lived it.
At least I was able to procure some valuable training aids while in the region for my sons when they grow older, in the form of twenty Zimbabwean 50 Billion Dollar notes.....a trillion bucks. To teach my kids about inflation and tyranny.
Here's a decent write up on Zimbabwe....from 10 years ago:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2003/12/how-to-kill-a-country/302845/
Guymullins
03-04-2013, 04:27
Westerners invariably criticise African leaders for the plight of their countries and the poverty that has always followed majority rule.
This is a big mistake and they should know , from their own experience, that leaders will commonly get away with what they can if the people allow them to.
The West, and East for that matter have had many rulers and leaders who have abused their positions in order to enrich themselves and entrench their power base. Over the centuries, civilisation has enabled the people to begin to realise that the power rests in their hands, if only they are prepared to use it. Western democracy has evolved into a system which largely prevents the rise of dictators and the ruination of countries. Even here, there has been the odd slip-up in the persons of Hitler, Mussolini and Franco, but by in large, it all works quite well. In Africa , on the other hand, the people have not grasped the concept of true democracy, which is just as much about voting people out of office as it is about voting them in. Mugabe still gets a huge portion of his countrymans vote, despite having completely ruined the country. The point of all of this is to say: Dont blame the leaders, for they will always be venal if allowed. Blame the people.
Here's a decent write up on Zimbabwe....from 10 years ago:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2003/12/how-to-kill-a-country/302845/
The "money" quote from the article, which is rife with the echoes of George Orwell's Animal Farm:
When Mugabe called for the "indigenization of the economy," he asserted pointedly that some Zimbabweans were "more indigenous than others."
Animal Farm indeed...
Peregrino
03-04-2013, 19:12
------ Mugabe still gets a huge portion of his countrymans vote, despite having completely ruined the country. The point of all of this is to say: Dont blame the leaders, for they will always be venal if allowed. Blame the people.
Trust me - some of us do understand. After all - look at our last two presidential elections. Thankfully, our system forces the ruling party to come up with a new candidate at least every eight years. Unfortunately, that doesn't necessarilly include any improvements among the electorate.
My workload has been pretty hectic, but I've been trying to use Google Image search in a futile effort to find an old photo of Robert Mugabe.
Specifically one where Mugabe is in China, wearing a Mao suit and hat(photo taken with Mao I think), two rows of pers, about 10/12 pers total in photo(like a class photo).
Black and White photo dating back to the 1960's I believe.
Can't bloody find it!
Meanwhile, fast forward to 2013 and I've read China has extensive agricultural interests in Zimbabwe protected by Mugabe.
Which makes sense since Mugabe's group during the Bush War was largely Chinese supported.
But you don't read much about Marxist/Maoist imperialism/intervention....then or now.
Just like few know about Cuba's long adventure in Angola.
MTN Medic
03-05-2013, 19:19
This country is the perfect example of how to #%$& up democracy. Take away the farm of a man, simply because he is white (who, by the way, employs 200 people) and give the farm to a man (boy really) who is the son of a minister (who is a minister because his father is a governor). Everyone gets fired, the land goes to waste and everyone is worse for wear except for the lucky few to be in positions of power. Imagine that farm, then apply it, in scale, to a whole country and you have Mugabe's reign in a nutshell.
MTN Medic
03-05-2013, 19:23
Meanwhile, fast forward to 2013 and I've read China has extensive agricultural interests in Zimbabwe protected by Mugabe.
Which makes sense since Mugabe's group during the Bush War was largely Chinese supported.
China envisions the whole of the continent of Africa as its nouveau-imperialistic territory. Name one country in Africa where the Chinese are not sucking the proverbial life-blood out of the continent. From the tiny islands of the Seychelles to Cape Town, to Algiers, they are there and their greed is not abated by humanitarianism; to any degree. The dark continent will be the new battleground for resources, cheap labour and will be, as a whole, worse off for it.
Whenever I think about the cycle of history of Zimbabwe (and many African countries), I am always reminded of something Anglican Bishop Desmond Tutu used to say.
"'When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said "Let us pray." We closed our eyes. When we opened them, we had the Bible and they had the land.'"
It's complicated.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
Whenever I think about the cycle of history of Zimbabwe (and many African countries), I am always reminded of something Anglican Bishop Desmond Tutu used to say.
"'When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said "Let us pray." We closed our eyes. When we opened them, we had the Bible and they had the land.'"
It's complicated.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
I tend to get a bit fired up about this particular topic.
It's always good to remind myself that while I've enjoyed reading about the history of this country(and the region) and always really enjoy learning more from the direct experiences of those folks who've lived it.......I still only have a fraction of a slice of the whole "pie".
IIRC Desmond Tutu was also a bit surprised by the Nobel Award in 2009.
Congo336
03-06-2013, 18:13
I hate to see what's happened in Zimbabwe. I was there several times during the early 90s and made good friends with several people to include a local farmer (former Rhoadie who fought for Zimbabwe during the war). The Zim that I knew then is all gone. I dug around and found a poem I was compelled to write after one mission there. I'm not a "warrior-poet" but I guess I came close to it at one time. For your entertainment! ;) This is from 93.
MISSION MEMORIES
Blue skies over Africa filled with 'chutes of green and gray,
Special Forces and Para Commandos training hard throughout the day.
Shona, Tomba, Mandiki, tribes of Zimbabwe House of Stone.
Men of Carolina, tribe of Fort Bragg, Home of the Airborne.
Makuti, follow spore, heat and rain, hills and valleys, follow spore,
every man feels the pain.
Sleep at night, keep one awake, outside the camp lions roar
and elephants, the ground can shake.
Soldiers think of family and friends, so far away,
part of their heart and mind asking, "why do I stay?"
The answer is not to be found, it is not that simple.
One hears the call and follows.
The rifle, an extension of my arm.
A soldier and a weapon. Both together, complete the one.
"Elephants on the Drop Zone" one Commando was heard to say.
Under parachute, he flew to tall trees, that day.
Para group, Hot DZ, Maroon beret on their head.
The sight of the Paras fill the enemy with fear and dread.
American Green Berets, known around the world,
known to Zimbabwe.
American warriors train with warriors of the House of Stone,
each learning, each teaching, strength comes as our nations grow closer.
Zimbabwe military, American military,
elements of a great team.
As we depart, we remain joined in spirit,
the spirit of the warrior.
The entire world, including the cold war enemies Russia and America united to force simple majority rule on Rhodesia and South Africa, despite the multiple examples of its failure in the rest of Africa. Thanks guys, good job.For a slightly different perspective on the United States' motivation for its policies towards South Africa, interested readers might consult the declassified version of Director of Central Intelligence [William J. Casey], Prospects for South Africa: Stability, Reform, and Violence, Special National Intelligence Estimate, 73.2-85 (February, 1987). This document updated/revised SNIE, 73.2-85 (August, 1985).
Prospects for South Africa: Stability, Reform, and Violence (http://www.faqs.org/cia/docs/21/0000659143/PROSPECTS-FOR-SOUTH.html)