View Full Version : question of 1969-1970 SFQC
Hello all,
My question is in regard to 1969-1970 SFQC:
If a person entered SFQC during these years,finished phase 1 and then either left training or was asked to leave training would that person:
Be allowed to wear his Green Beret with a Crest only,no flash after leaving SFQC ?
Would that person be allowed to volunteer to go to Vietnam from SFQC and be allowed to wear the Green Beret with Crest,No Flash,while on leave ,and then on to Vietnam ?
Would that person not have been returned to their Home /Mother Unit and request deployment to Vietnam from there ?
I ask as I have been told that wearing the Beret and Crest,without Flash,(or candy stripe), was standard protocol,(as per REGS.), for that time when leaving or asked to leave in the middle of SFQC training .
I find it hard to believe that this would be allowed as it was always you either are Special Forces ,or you are not. If you didn't graduate SFQC you were not Special Forces,period.
Here is the picture in question:
http://army.togetherweserved.com/army/servlet/tws.webapp.WebApp?cmd=ShadowBoxProfile&type=Person&ID=264369
Thank you in advance for any help regarding this question.
Jim
The Infantry Cord wasn't authorized for wear while assigned to SF (Green Beret and SF Oval in pic)
http://armyphotos.togetherweserved.com/390297_med.jpg
Trapper John
02-03-2013, 21:21
I am from that era. We were not allowed to wear the Beret until completion of Phase I and then only with the crest (no flash). At any point during the subsequent 2 training phases we did not complete the training (voluntarily or involuntarily) we would have been re-assigned to a regular army unit. No Beret wearing after that point. The flash was awarded upon assignment to an active SF unit. Failure to complete Phase I would not result in the wearing of the Beret for any reason.
I am curious though, why do you ask? The link in your post is to a deceased veteran. What interest do you have in a deceased veteran's creds/claims, etc.? As a Vietnam War veteran myself, I am not particularly interested in discrediting a deceased Veteran for any reason. It seems to me that you are questioning the deceased Veterans claims. Am I correct? So please explain the reason for your questions?
Ambush Master
02-03-2013, 21:46
Hello all,
My question is in regard to 1969-1970 SFQC:
If a person entered SFQC during these years,finished phase 1 and then either left training or was asked to leave training would that person:
Be allowed to wear his Green Beret with a Crest only,no flash after leaving SFQC ?
Would that person be allowed to volunteer to go to Vietnam from SFQC and be allowed to wear the Green Beret with Crest,No Flash,while on leave ,and then on to Vietnam ?
Would that person not have been returned to their Home /Mother Unit and request deployment to Vietnam from there ?
I ask as I have been told that wearing the Beret and Crest,without Flash,(or candy stripe), was standard protocol,(as per REGS.), for that time when leaving or asked to leave in the middle of SFQC training .
I find it hard to believe that this would be allowed as it was always you either are Special Forces ,or you are not. If you didn't graduate SFQC you were not Special Forces,period.
Here is the picture in question:
http://army.togetherweserved.com/army/servlet/tws.webapp.WebApp?cmd=ShadowBoxProfile&type=Person&ID=264369
Thank you in advance for any help regarding this question.
Jim
I went through the "Q" during this exact period.
#1 You could only wear the Beret/w Crest as long as you were still assigned to Training Group.
#2 When you left Training Group, if you were not a Graduate, you reverted back to the Standard Issue Airborne Headgear that the rest of the Airborne wore, you NO LONGER had any attachment to "The Beret"!!
#3 You would have been sent to where ever Mother Army needed and it may not have been an Airborne Unit!!
Any other Questions, give a shout!!
Martin
Hello Trapper John,
I ask because the site was posted to be looked at and read. When I saw the picture posted on Together We Served,I asked the person who posted it,another former Green Beret,why he put that picture up,as it was known that the person pictured never went past Phase one.
He said it was to show that the person pictured was a phase one graduate wearing his Green Beret Home on leave prior to being sent to Vietnam.
When I asked how he could wear it at all due to the fact that the person pictured left or was asked to leave training I was told it was per Regualtions at the time that he was allowed to wear it.
I am not trying to discredit the wearer,as he finished phase one and moved on from SFQC ,went to Vietnam ,was wounded and sent home, as a decorated Veteran.
I am just asking about wearing of the Green Beret and Crest after leaving training as being part of the Regulations at the time.
I had never heard of that and decided to ask here,where people would know the answer and not give an off handed reply they were not sure of.
I remember the candy stripes under the crest for unqualified people assigned to SF Units ,but had not heard of the crest alone as authorized head gear ,especially not when one walked away or was sent away from training.
I hope that answers your question,and I Thank You and the others for your replies, Much appreciated.
Jim
From the pic and what you've said about it:
He completed Infantry BCT/AIT (blue Infantry Cord).
He completed the BAC (Basic Parachutist Badge).
He completed PH1 (beret w/crest - SF oval).
He failed to complete either PH2 or PH3.
He went home on PCS leave enroute to RVN.
He wore his SFTG beret on PCS leave enroute to RVN.
What it means:
He knowingly continued to wear his SFTG beret against regulations to "profile" for the ffolkes/girls/friends back home because it was so much "cooler" than a blank "overseas cap" or "service hat."
He was wrong and knew it...but it was not uncommon, either, for soldiers to do such a thing - we called 'em "PX warriors" back then and "posers" or "wannabes" today.
He is not being truthful about it to you. :mad:
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
When, if ever was the INF cord authorized for wear by soldiers assigned to SFTG?
When, if ever was the INF cord authorized for wear by soldiers assigned to SFTG?
It wasn't.
Richard :munchin
rubberneck
02-04-2013, 08:43
I remember reading about Echanis in SOF magazine in the early 80's. IIRC he killed himself and a couple others by trying to throw a live hand grenade out of an airplane in Nicaragua. He was also one of the people involved in the men who stare at goats thing.
Yep, he sure did. Was a "Mercenary" for a while before his death. Didn't know it was a grenade that killed him though. Thought it was an SA-7 that hit the plane? :confused:
blue02hd
02-05-2013, 11:18
Love the hands in the pockets and the porn stache. You old timers had no discipline,,,,,
I remember reading about Echanis in SOF magazine in the early 80's. IIRC he killed himself and a couple others by trying to throw a live hand grenade out of an airplane in Nicaragua. He was also one of the people involved in the men who stare at goats thing.
Was he a protege of Guy Savalle?
jkirkthomas
02-05-2013, 11:46
Love the hands in the pockets and the porn stache. You old timers had no discipline,,,,,
Us old timers all had porn staches.
So much hate here... What did the Porn Stash do to you......:p
Trapper John
02-05-2013, 12:09
Love the hands in the pockets and the porn stache. You old timers had no discipline,,,,,
Hey now??? Do you see any porn-staches in this pic? ;)
Trapper John
02-05-2013, 12:13
So much hate here... What did the Porn Stash do to you......:p
Ooops! Now porn stash - that's a different matter all together:D
I do believe that Lyman was one of our instructors at MedLab in 75-76 and Weiler was my Senior Medic at Tolz in 77-78.
rubberneck
02-05-2013, 19:48
Yep, he sure did. Was a "Mercenary" for a while before his death. Didn't know it was a grenade that killed him though. Thought it was an SA-7 that hit the plane? :confused:
The way I remember it was that they were trying to bomb the Sandanista's from an air plane by pulling the pin on a grenade and dropping them in a mason jar before throwing them out the window. He either dropped the jar or a live grenade and it detonated killing all aboard. His devotees claim that it was a bomb that was rigged with an altitude sensitive detonator. Who knows what the truth really is.
rubberneck
02-05-2013, 19:51
Was he a protege of Guy Savalle?
I honestly don't know.
I have to join the defense of the "porn stash". I grew mine as soon as I graduated from Tng Gp (1971) and have worn it ever since.
As for having no discipline, I disagree. We were a bunch of bandits in those days (at least us younger guys) but we fought a war being lost by our poli-whores in Washington, some of which are still around today. We wore the Green Beret with pride inspite of the media and many politicians. We went where we were told and did what we were told to do. We watched the miltary being torn apart and still soldiered on.
We were professionals. Many got out but some of us stayed and carried on. SF disciipline is less the parade ground discipline and more the individual personal discipline that we don't see that much any more.
As for the hands in the pockets, I remember standing around with the battalion command group (Bn Cdr, XO, CSM, myself and others) on the drop zone with ALL of us with our hands in our pockets!
Trapper John
02-10-2013, 07:19
I have to join the defense of the "porn stash". I grew mine as soon as I graduated from Tng Gp (1971) and have worn it ever since.
Now that's a visual image for ya:eek: Sure you don't mean "pornstache":D
BMT (RIP)
02-10-2013, 13:12
porn stash
'60's- '70's they were call Womb Brooms!! :D
BMT
longrange1947
02-10-2013, 13:23
Love the hands in the pockets and the porn stache. You old timers had no discipline,,,,,
Us old timers all had porn staches.
Still have mine! :p
porn stash
'60's- '70's they were call Womb Brooms!! :D
BMT
Mine turned white for some reason. Must have been the bleach...
Mine turned white for some reason. Must have been the bleach...
You must spend too much time in the sun like me. Mine turned white also - well, more a dirty gray.
Dang mine too. Must be all this Florida sun I run around in.
Looks like an 8th group patch behind the wings, another no no. :mad:
While in training group one jerk was putting E-5 stripes and a majors pins on his uniform before going on leave, said he was a "Sergeant Major", his buddies stopped him, we all had a good laugh, then he failed the Q course. :D
Looks like an 8th group patch behind the wings, another no no. :mad:
Not an 8th SFGA flash but the branch unassigned colors jump wings oval we used to wear in Group and while going through SFTG unless you were assigned to the 10th SFGA or IMA which had different ovals.
Richard :munchin
Looks like an 8th group patch behind the wings, another no no. :mad: :D
How could you have served in 6th Grp and not know that the blue/yellow wing background/oval was worn by all groups but the 10th?
"12B4S, 1st SF 1969-1971. 6th Group, 8th Group"
How could you have served in 6th Grp and not know that the blue/yellow wing background/oval was worn by all groups but the 10th?
"12B4S, 1st SF 1969-1971. 6th Group, 8th Group"
I'm not sure WHEN you served, but, the oval patch behind the jump wings matched your assigned unit patch on the beret, in 1969-71. :p
I'm not sure WHEN you served, but, the oval patch behind the jump wings matched your assigned unit patch on the beret, in 1969-71. :p
Unless you were in the 10th or IMA, the oval was the teal blue/gold one for the 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 8th SFGAs, and the 46th SFC and DetKorea.
Richard :munchin
I was going from memory, I'll take a seat in the bleachers.
Got to training group Spring 67 just out of Infantry AIT and BAC.
Had to give up the pretty blue cord and brass trim for the plain unassigned stuff of SF.
Lot of us youngsters only had a year or so in and you saw lots of funny things going home on leave that would not have gotten far on the hill.
Hands in pockets were known as Air Force Gloves and would get you 20 likely as not.
Wearing a beret was not a status of training-it was SF or not.
A "terminee" was not authorised a beret.
Some guys flunked out, some screwed up, and some others left for personal reasons.
There was actually a waiting list for 5th Group slots in those days.
Very few went straight to 5th from SFTG. but some did.
I got back in 70 and SF grads were stacked on top of each other in the 7th-5th was downsizing and they were all dressed up with no place to go,
Most had been to every available school, including Ranger, just to keep them busy.
They all had real bad atitudes and it was not a good environment.
Funny remembering that stuff.
longrange1947
07-18-2013, 09:08
I remember reading about Echanis in SOF magazine in the early 80's. IIRC he killed himself and a couple others by trying to throw a live hand grenade out of an airplane in Nicaragua. He was also one of the people involved in the men who stare at goats thing.
I believe he was killed before the staring at goats thing occurred. I also understood you killed himself with a dropped grenade in a helicopter.
As far as the picture, he is wrong in all ways. :munchin
Love the hands in the pockets and the porn stache. You old timers had no discipline,,,,,
Us old timers all had porn staches.
In order to give free mustache rides, you MUST have a porn stash!
Photo is of Michael D. Echanis. It was taken by his family the day he left from Casual Leave (1 July 1969 - 28 July 1969) at home (Ontario, Oregon) for Vietnam.
Per his 2-1 Echanis entered service on 12 May 69 and attended Basic Training beginning on 19 May 69 at Fort Ord, California (Co D 3d BDE).
He then attended Advanced Individual Training at Fort Gordon where he was awarded his 11 Bravo MOS (hence the Blue Infantry Cord). He cross-trained at Fort Gordon as an Infantry Direct Fire Crewman, as well.
Echanis then attended and completed ABN School at Fort Benning, GA (4th Student BN (ABN). His ABN Student # was 534.
On 25 October 69 with a Duty MOS of 09B2P he reported to CO D, USASFTNGGRP (ABN) at Fort Bragg. He attended and, as recently learned, SUCCESSFULLY completed Phase One of the SFQC on 21 JAN 1970.
However, Mike's primary goal (as a 19 year old) was to get to Vietnam and try to learn what had happened to his cousin, the CPT Joseph Echanis, whose F4 had crashed in Laos in November of 69.
Upon completion of Phase One Echanis volunteered for duty in Vietnam.
He (and this is where the picture comes in) remained assigned to Special Forces and his 2-1 reads he was now a Replacement assigned to USASFCTNGGRP (ABN).
After Casual Leave Mike arrived in Vietnam as a replacement SF replacement on 3 FEB 1970. He was recruited and assigned to CO C, 75th RGR INF on 23 MAR 1970. His MOS was then listed as 11B1P and his principle duty was that of Scout-Observer.
Echanis took every opportunity to get where he felt he might learn something about Joseph Echanis - and LRP with CO C, 75th INF seemed to fit.
On May 6, 1970, the Daily Log for Company C (RANGER), 75th Inf., Engineer Hill, Pleiku, VN states the following:
"1900 - Company had one truck ambushed today at An Khe Pass. Suffered 7 friendly WIA's. Got four confirmed KIA's. Negative Operations."
Gerald F. Colvin, CPT, Operations, signed the log entry.
Per the August 5, 1970 Company C (RANGER) 75th Infantry (ABN) "Operational Report - Lessens (sic) Learned, Period Ending 31 July 1970, Paragraph B -
"During the month of May, the company conducted 73 operations in twenty-three operational days resulting in 27 contacts, 32 enemy sightings, 34 enemy KIA, and 14 weapons. Friendly losses were 2 US KIA and 14 US WIA.
"The high casualty figure was mainly due to a convoy ambush in the An Khe Pass on 6 May."
The report is signed by Major Donald L. Hudson, Commanding.
In the aftermath of that ambush on May 6th, Mike Echanis was awarded the Bronze Star with Valor Device (General Orders Number 1810, dated 15 July 1970, Department of the Army, Headquarters, 173rd ABN BDE).
His award narrative states Echanis was wounded four time during the ambush but "continued to fight until the beleagured truck was relieved. Specialist Echanis's aggressive spirit and undaunted courage were decisive in preventing the annhilation of the truck and its personnel."
Mike was also awarded the Vietnamese Cross of Gallanrty for this action (with Palm Device) and the Purple Heart.
Orders for his and all those others wounded in the ambush were cut on 7 May 1970, the day after the ambush. They were cut at Headquarters, 17th Field Hospital, VN (General Orders Number 104).
The PH for those Rangers assigned to CO C, 75th RANGERS include:
Roberts, Eddie L., SSG (2nd Award)
Carr, Alfred L., SP4
Echanis, Michael D, SP4
Ladeaux, Robert W, SP4
Laughton, Mark E, PFC
The driver and assistant driver of the vehicle, also wounded, were:
Lewis, James H, SP5 (597th Transportation Company)
Baker, Gary L, SPF (597th Transporation Company)
Major Clarence A Martin Jr, Acting Commander, signed the orders.
Echanis was transferred from the 17th Field Hospital on 17 May to the 249th General Hospital in Japan where his lower right leg was saved from amputation.
He was transferred to Letterman Army Hospital on June 3, 1970 for roughly 7 months of intensive in-patient and then out-patient care and treatment.
On 18 December 1970 he was medically retired with a 100% VA disability rating.
Echanis would return to the Special Forces community in 1976 as the senior civilian instructor for the new Hwa Rang Do military combatives program he designed. And yes, I have all of the relevant documentation for that.
On September 8, 1978 he, Chuck Sanders (recently retired from the Army/SF) and Bobby Nguyen were killed in an aviation crash near Lake Nicaragua. I have the US and NIC documentation on that event, as well.
All three were returned and buried / cremated (Chuck Sanders) in Ontario, Oregon.
GEN McMull, then SF CDR at Bragg, directed then MSG Ivan Jakovenko (who was very close to Mike and Chuck at Bragg) and was the Team Sergeant of ODA 594 (SCUBA) -
To provide a formal SF escort / color guard at Mike and Chuck's services.
Jake described this to me himself.
At the conclusion of Mike's ceremony MSG Jakovenko, SSG James Lally, SSG Roger Bascomb and SFC Thomas Powell filed by Mike's casket and placed their berets upon it. These were then buried with Mike. Also a pall bearer was former POW James Jackson, who was very close to Mike at Fort Bragg.
On February 11, 1971, the Echanis Family received a Presidental Certificate from then President Jimmy Carter. It reads -
"The United States of America honors the memory of Michael D. Echanis - This certificate is awarded by a grateful nation in recognition of devoted and selfless consecration to the service of our country in the Armed Forces of the United States."
In 2013, Echanis was inducted into Black Belt Magazine's Hall of Fame as Weapons Instructor of the Year.
In short, Echanis was authorized to wear his beret with crest when reporting for duty in Vietnam as he was assigned to Special Forces as a replacement. He did successfully complete Phase One. He was authorized to wear the blue infantry cord on his uniform (I wore mine when I reported to SFQC in 1980 and thereafter, as appropriate).
He volunteered and was accepted as a LRP/RGR by Co C, 75th INF (RGR) and was wounded with that unit (after saving 6 other members in the ambush per his award narrative) and was awarded the PH by the unit per the orders cited.
SGM (Retired) Jakovenko and selected members of his ODA, as named, paid our community's respects to Mike, Chuck and the families per GEN McMull.
We might agree if Echanis was less than what he clearly was Jake and the others would not have been sent nor left their berets on Mike's casket in honor of him.
And "mercenaries" don't recieve such attention much less a presidential certificate after the fact.
There's much more about Mike and what he really was doing in NIC and for who - but that's another chapter in his Life story that includes then SWC CDR Colonel Charlie Beckwith:D
Rest in peace, Mike.
In short, Echanis was authorized to wear his beret with crest when reporting for duty in Vietnam as he was assigned to Special Forces as a replacement.
I don't think so.
USASFTNGGRP and USASFTG were abbreviations for SF training at Fort Bragg. You wore your Army headgear when reporting, the beret w/SF DUI while in training, and either the beret w/flash/DUI upon completion of the program and awarding of the SQI "S" or the regular Army headgear if not when departing Training Group.
Once he was no longer in the program, he should have worn the overseas cap or garrison hat enroute to his next duty assignment as an 11B1P unassigned which should have been reflected on his 2-1 as something along the lines of "Casual enroute USARPAC" or one of the many variations that were used at the time.
I think he was just 'profiling' when that pic was made - as many did and still do when away from the flagpole and home on leave. We all know how that one works.
Richard
Richard is correct.
You terminate, you give up your beret, period.
You don't wear infantry ropes with SF Uniform.
I attended the Ft Gordon Infantry AIT course in 1967.
It was oriented for airborne volunteers and run like jump school
The course separated us into 3 groups, 11B riflemen, 11C Mortars, and 11H 106RR shooters. One section each, only.
We were randomly given to one of those sections upon arrival.
When we graduated we were put on busses to Ft Benning.
There was a lot of hi-jacking at replacement centers in VN. I know SF guys with SF orders who ended up in other units-didn't pass go, didn't collect $200.
I'll tell you something about those VN after action reports and enemy casualty reports-don't believe any of them-how do you kill 34 guys and capture 14 weapons?
Charlie did try and recover weapons before casualties, though.
Those are the facts, the documents, the history from FOIA and National Archives.
The from the Echanis Family.
And it explains the origin of the photo posted on this thread.
It's pretty interesting how some only focus on "wear of the beret" or other cosmetics -
Glossing over what the guy's actual combat record and awards / decorations.
Does anyone with the E/C Company Ranger Association know if any of the other four rangers wounded with Echanis are still alive? That would be interesting to know.
I concur with Art Gitlin, long time Sigung and one of the old San Francisco school of martial artists and instructors "back in the day"..
"I never like discussing Mike because it drives me crazy to hear all these people who now claim to have known or trained with him and so on. I've had people mention his name and say, "Ah, he wasn't so tough." Yeah, right. Now that he's dead everyone is willing to say how not so tough he was. It makes me sick, you know what I mean?" - Art Gitlin, February 1996, interview with Michael de Alba/Fighting Knives Magazine
SGM Jake Jakovenko (Retired) and Master Chief Bob Nissley, both who knew Echanis well, would agree.
Little known fact. After an H2H demonstration in Puerto Rico where Echanis and Jakovenko, according to Jake, beat the crap out of each other Echanis later contacted Grand Master Joo Bang Lee, described the event and recommended Jake be promoted to Black Belt in Hwa Rang Do. Which he was. Prior to that Jakovenko was a brown belt in jiu jitsu.
Echanis was tough enough to both earn and give rank when he worked for both our community and Naval Special Warfare (ST2) in '76/'78.
Just a neat historical note.
If Mike had PCS'd from SFTG enroute to OCONUS and had not been awarded the SQI 'S' he was 'profiling' in that pic and he would undoubtedly be the first to admit it if he was still around.
As far as 'knowing' him, I only knew him superficially from his short time spent with us (I was in A/2-7th then) on Alamo Field teaching his instinctive combatives style of fighting. When it came to that, he was proverbially serious as a heart attack and harder than woodpecker lips, and we had nothing but respect for his fighting abilities.
May he rest in peace - and so it goes...
Richard
I believe you have nailed it :)
In a recent e-conversation with SGM Jakovenko about Echanis -
We discussed the "Q" course question among other things -
He offered, knowing Mike as well as he did, that Echanis wouldn't care one way or the other "S" or tab wise where he was concerned. Those things didn't matter to him as much as they do to others.
Jake also offered Mike never, to his recollection, talked about his wounding or his awards after the fact. He didn't even know that Mike had attended the "Q" course. Mike never said anything.
From what I've learned from Jake, Juan Montes (who knew MDE at Bragg and was instrumental in seeing him hired by Somoza while Montes was Army attache at the US embassy in Managua), Chief Nissley, Master Randy Wanner and others this was pretty much Echanis' style.
His dad and uncles had all fought in WW2...his cousin, Joe Echanis, was shot down over Laos in November of 1969...and he'd met / worked with guys like the above named who he truly respected and saw as far more than he was.
To include his closest friend and fellow Soldier / Warrior, Chuck "Sandy" Sanders. Chuck was instrumental in Mike's successful recovery from his wounds - and was himself a fully qualified "Green Beret" who had been awarded the Soldier's Medal in '77 while on Jakovenko's SCUBA team. I have the citation narrative for that event - he saved the life of one of his teammates during a hign angle climbing accident.
Master Chief Bob Nissley (Ret.), who likewise knew Mike very well and oversaw his, Chuck's and Bobby's return to the States and funerals (to include, at the request of the Echanis Family, viewing the remains once all three arrived safely in Ontario ... this to ensure positive ID) said of Mike -
"He was a Free Spirit. He just wanted to be exactly who he was and do what he wanted to in life. That's why so many were drawn to him."
Attached is the photo taken by then Major Juan Montes in Puerto Rico just after Echanis and then MSG Jakovenko did their impromptu H2H demo in the field.
The company had been flown down to PR to provide its National Guard with "training and assistance" during a period when Puerto Rican "nationalists", read terrrorists, were becoming a significant problem.
Echanis was invited to go along but because he was then a civilian and because of his leg injury (he would have if they'd let him) he couldn't jump in with the company.
So he air-landed after the jump and caught a ride out to link up with Jake's team.
According to those who were there the demo was pretty amazing. SGM Jakovenko punched Echanis who then smacked him back...then Jake smacked him...then Echanis hit back harder...and pretty soon both were bleeding and giving it all they had.
As Jake told me they got a standing ovation after it was over and Mike saw to it Jakovenko was promoted to black belt ranking in Hwa Rang Do.
In the photo you can see SGM Jakovenko in the background over Echanis' right shoulder.
Of Jakovenko Echanis said in a Soldier of Forune interview he did in '77 - "...when we are talking about individuals, probably one of the toughest hand to hand combat instructors and probably one of the best professonal soldiers I have ever seen is MSG Jakovenko...He was one of the leaders on the Son Tay Raid...He's Special Forces and Ranger Qualified."
Returning the accolade and more it would be MSG Jakovenko who, along with three others from his SCUBA team, who would honor their friend by placing their berets on his casket on September 16, 1978.
....The company had been flown down to PR to provide its National Guard with "training and assistance" during a period when Puerto Rican "nationalists", read terrrorists, were becoming a significant problem......
There are a number of stories about the HALO and SCUBA teams and PR during that time period. Don't know it the statute of limitations have run out on a couple of them.
3/5th spent a good bit of time there for about three years.
Some people tend to get time compression over the years. Which is how his time on Smoke Bomb Hill around the mid 70s gets stretched by the posers to all the stare at goat crap from the early 80s. Bam Bam popped up a while back on that thread and straightened all the posers out.
While Mike mostly hung out with Jake's team a few like Bam Bam from Co A were pretty much regulars. Mike did the round robin training around the Hill but I was doing something and missed it.
IIRC Mike had a brother who worked at the Siam Club on the 500 block for a short while. I say that because I was downtown with some of Mike's regulars and we were having a few beers. Some dude pulled a pistol on the bartender and he reached over the counter, took it away from him, jumped over the bar and beat the crap out of him - fast as you could blink your eyes. I said that was pretty slick and one of the guys replied "Yeah, that's Mike's brother." Don't know if it was his brother but that's what the guy said...
That was some weird times for sure.
Chuck Sanders' brother, Jim Sanders, helped both Mike and Chuck teach at Bragg during that time period.
It is Jim who is shown in a number of published photographs taken during that period - taking punches and kicks from Mike. In the JAN/FEB 1976 issue of VERITAS in an article titled Hwarang Do by Spec. 4 Rick Mullen, the then two-week military Hwa Rang Do instructors course is described. Jim is featured in one photo on Page 19.
Jim was hoping / planning to join the Army and follow in Chuck's footsteps in Special Forces. He got into trouble in Fayetteville, don't know exactly what, and never was able to follow through with enlistment.
In a personal letter home during this period Mike wrote, in part, "I am completing a 6-week film and completing a Army Manual [his first O'Hara book]. I'll be working for the government for the next 5 to 10 years. I feel I have found my profession and I know the military is my home...Chuck was 28 the other day, and Jim turned 23. Jim will soon be in the Army going to Special Forces hopefully."
Chuck was born May 21, 1948 so it's easy to figure out when this letter was written.
Upon Mike, Chuck and Bobby being returned to Ontario Jim, along with Master Chief Nissley, viewed and confirmed his brother's remains.
Jim is still with us and remains in touch with the Echanis Family.
Attached is two part photo sequence taken at Bragg. Mike is demonstrating his version of Bruce Lee's famous "One Inch Punch". Chuck Sanders is taking the hit :eek:
Never before seen and one of Mike's favorite photos taken during this period.
This is the beginning of the punch sequence - :munchin
Echanis ran with primarily Jakovenko's SCUBA team (594, I believe) and Andre Smith's.
Chuck Sanders was on Jake's team and it was through Chuck that Mike met Jake.
Echanis was sent down to Panama to teach H2H to the SCUBA folks there with Group. Underwater H2H techiques. Chuck assisted.
It is my understanding Andre Smith, after leaving the Army, passed away while attempting an extremely deep water dive.
Photo is of Echanis during his recovery / rehabilitation from the wounds received with C Co, 75th Infantry (RANGER) while outpatient from Letterman Army Hospital. We first published it in Black Belt Magazine, August/September 2013, as part of the story about Mike's journey as a Wounded Warrior.
My sincere appreciation and thanks to the Echanis Family for their invaluable help in properly researching their son/brother's life and service.
The writer fee for this article ("Hwa Rang Do's Immortal Warrior") and the article announcing his induction into the Black Belt Hall of Fame this same year were donated directly to the Green Beret Foundation in Mike's name.
....Chuck Sanders' brother, Jim Sanders, helped both Mike and Chuck teach at Bragg during that time period........
Most probably so.....and that might have had something to do with the "trouble".
Mike and his time at Smoke Bomb Hill is an interesting example about the circle of knowledge. While there he had a more intimate relationship with Jake, his team and a few others. Others, like Richard, trained with him and his techniques. Still others, like myself, were there, knew all the people involved but didn't interact because we were doing other things.
During that time period 3/5th did two Sub-Ops. Joint operation between the three teams getting about 18 divers each trip. I'd really have to dig through my dive logs to find out everybody who went but IIRC the first was built around Jake's team and the second was built around B Co's team. Andre Smith came from the SCUBA Locker for the second one.
So it was a pretty small circle of known people.
What was your connection to Mike?
I am a close friend of the Echanis Family...particularly Mike's mom, Pat.
Now nearly two years ago the family chose to allow me to help set the record straight about Mike.
An effort which, among other things, led to seeing him successfully inducted into the Black Belt Hall of Fame.
They, and others close to them, felt it was time to put and end, if possible, to all the negative, misleading, false accounts and stories about Mike and Chuck (and Bobby Nguyen). And to claimed relationships meant to profit from primarily Mike's name, image and legacy or to dishonor / denigrate him for less than honorable personal agendas.
It was and remains a great, great honor to have been of service to them in this manner.
Pat Echanis passed away on December 29th of last year. She remained with us long enough to see her son's life properly accounted for and to see him honored by induction into the Hall of Fame.
I lost a very dear friend when she passed on.
Attached is my favorite picture of Pat and I last year. We are in the backyard of where Mike grew up, recovered from his wounds and last solo trained in his Art before returning to Nicaragua for the last time.
Thank you for asking.
VR,
Greg Walker, Author
"At the Hurricane's Eye - U.S. Special Operations Forces VN to Desert Storm"
SFA - Life Member
SOA - General Member
AMB - Green Beret Foundation
Chuck Sanders grew up with Mike Echanis and the two were the closest of friends.
Sanders was immensely talented in the Art of Judo and competed in this art while attending the University of Oregon in Eugene, Oregon, before enlisting.
On September 8, 1978, both were killed in an aviation crash near Lake Nicaragua along with former South Vietnamese commando and Airborne officer Nguyen "Bobby" Ngyuen.
On September 16th, 1978, Sanders and Echanis were laid to rest in Ontario, Oregon. Bobby Nguyen was laid to rest on the 17th. He is buried next to Mike per the Echanis Family's wishes and efforts.
Special Forces provided formal representation at the services per GEN McMull. This honor guard was led by then MSG Valdimer Jakovenko and selected members of his ODA, Company C, 3rd BN, 5th Special Forces Group (ABN) to include SSG James Lally, SSG Roger Bascomb and SFC Thomas Powell.
Charles Wilfred Sanders joined the Army on September 10, 1973.
He ETS'd on September 9, 1977 and joined his childhood friend and fellow Soldier, Mike Echanis, in Nicaragua.
Chuck's military education included the USAAHS MedCorps school, USAAHS MedSpec course, USAIMA MedSpec course, "Q" Course (1974), SF UnderwaterOps course (1975), USAIS Basic ABN course (1973) and USATC SLPP course (1973).
He was assigned to teams at both B and C companies, 3rd BN, 5th SFG(A).
His awards and decorations include the Soldier's Medal.
The citation narrative reads:
Sergeant Charles W. Sanders - United States Army - for heroism:
"Sergeant Sanders is cited for heroism while conducting mountain climbing training at 1100 hours, 12 May 1977, at Little Cottonwood Canyon, Utah.
"While participating in a "free climb" exercise on a mountain approximately 1500 feet high the third man (MSG Nail) slipped on a smooth granite slope. The climbing party was at the 1200 foot level above the base of the canyon with an 800 foot drop to the nearest rocks below.
"Master Sergeant Nail immediately yelled for a rope from the second man on the party, Master Sergeant Jakovenko. Master Sergeant Jakovenko threw a rope for Master Sergeant Nail but to no avail since he was already slipping at a high rate of speed to the nearest rocks 800 feet below.
"When Sergeant Sanders heard Master Sergeant Nail yelling he immediately looked up and saw him sliding towards his death 800 feet below unless he could be stopped.
"Completely disregarding his own safety he ran across 15 feet of dangerouslyl steep granite slope and threw his hands up in an attempt to stop Master Sergeant Nail's fall.
"He placed his right hand underneath Master Sergeant Nail's left foot and held him stationary while balancing himself. His and Master Sergeant Nail's complete weight was balanced on a one inch ledge being supported by Sergeant Sanders' toes.
"After staying in this precarious position for 7 minutes, Master Sergeant Jakovenko and Sergeant First Class Anderson lowerd a rope to the endangered men which they used to pull themselves to safety.
"Sergeant Anderson then lowered himself Sergeant Sanders; however, Sergeant Sanders refused to be assisted until Master Sergeant Nail was safely enroute to the top.
"The heroic manner in which Sergeant Sanders risked his life to save Master Sergeant Nail from sure death, with utter disregard for his own safety, makes him truly deserving of the award of the Soldier's Medal."
Chuck Sanders was awarded his black belt in Hwa Rang Do by Grandmaster Joo Bang Lee, 1st DAN, on April 10, 1975 (75-0653). Mike Echanis would be so acknowledged on the same date, his black belt number 75-0652)
On November 10, 1978, Grand Master Lee would posthumously award both Michael D. Echanis and Chuck Sanders their 3rd DAN "black sash" in Hwa Rang Do.
Two days prior to his passing he and Miss Susie Thomas, of Fayetteville, NC, were married in Managua, Nicaragua. Susie became close to the Sanders and Echanis families and remained in contact with them long after her husband's death.
Chuck is survived by his two brothers and two sisters. His parents passed away after their son.
Rest in peace, Chuck.
Bobby Nguyen passed away on September 8, 1978.
He was killed along with Michael Echanis and Chuck Sanders in an aviation crash near Lake Nicaragua.
Dr. John E. Padgett, who knew Bobby well, wrote an excellent memorial article about his friend in the October 1982 issue of Soldier of Fortune ("May Buddha Bless Bobby".
Dr. Padgett is a Special Forces Vietnam era medic (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/john-padgett/34/215/a2).
Dr. Padgett last visited with Bobby Nguyen when the two of them were in Managua, Nicaragua. Doc Padgett was overseeing the provision of health services for over 100 rural clinics - Bobby was working with Mike Echanis on behalf of President Somoza.
Bobby Nguyen, orphaned as a child, was adopted at age 11 by a Special Forces A-Team in Vietnam. He became an inerpreter. He remained with SF and worked a number of projects to include recruiting and training Mike Force troopers out of Qui Nhon.
The only known photo of Bobby appears in John's article and was taken during this training.
Upon SF leaving Vietnam and the peace accord signed, Doc Padgett writes "Bobby joined the one unit where he still had an opportunity to aggressively take the fight to the enemy; the ARVN airborne. He worked up from NCO to warrant officer to lieutenant and was commanding a company that held out for as long as possible at Ton Son Nhut airport.
"Surrounded and cut off in a nation that had given up, Bobby then led the remnants of his company in a break-out. They fought their way to Vung Tau, taking advantage of the confusion, and "liberated" a fishing vessel which they sailed out to meet the Seventh Fleet.
Bobby was sponsored by a church group in New York and went to work at a restaurant on Long Island. Soon after he relocated to Fayetteville where he worked at the Sheraton as head chef.
He reunited with the SF community, specifically Master Chief Bob Nissley then the senior naval special warfare liaison at Center, and was later recruited to join Echanis and Sanders in Nicaragua by Cuban Expat and senior advisor to President Somoza, Raymond Molina (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=860&dat=19780904&id=3IRUAAAAIBAJ&sjid=MI8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=4074,4365104).
When the remains of Echanis and Sanders were returned to Oregon, Bobby's were, as well.
The Echanis Family did not know Bobby nor were they informed the State Department was sending his casket along with Mike and Chuck's to Ontario for burial.
Still, with the direct help of Master Chief Nissley (Retired), they believed their son would want Bobby buried with him. They provided Bobby with one of the Echanis family plots at Sunset Cemetery.
Bobby's headstone was originally Pat Echanis' mother's marker. They had replaced it and now had the original marker refinished and engraved for Bobby.
They had to receive permission from the local Catholic church for Bobby to be buried in the catholic cemetery. As Frank Echanis, Mike's dad, recalls he went to the church and asked for permission. As no one knew if Bobby was a Catholic or not Frank, knowing many Vietnamese were Catholics, felt he just as easily was as was not and attested this to the Church.
Permission for burial was granted.
The announcement of Bobby's service was made in the Ontario local paper (Argus-Observer). It reads:
"Nigoyen Van Ngoyen, 32, of Nicaragua died September 8 at Nicaragua. Graveside services were conducted today at 3 p.m. at Sunset Cemetery in Ontario by Rev. Cletus Kirkpatrick, under the direction of Bertelson-Lienkaemper Chapel in Ontario.
"He was born in 1946 in Vietnam and entered the Vietnamese Army when he was 11. He served for 15 years and moved to the United States in 1975. He lived in North Carolina and worked as the head chef at the Fayetteville Sheraton Hotel. He was one of the highest decorated men in the Vietnamese Army and was expert in karate."
Bobby was not a U.S. citizen at the time of his death. He was traveling back and forth from the U.S. to Nicaragua on his refugee papers. Still, the US embassy on September 13, 1978, attested that "Viet Van Nguyen, citizen of the United States, who died at RIVAS, Nicaragua, on September 8th, 1978...".
The embassy document was signed by Ms. Mary M. Daniel, Consul of the United States of America, Managua, Nicaragua.
Bobby was buried the day after Mike and Chuck (September 17, 1978).
The Echanis Family tends to his grave to this day as does the small Vietnamese community in Ontario.
Until last year Dr. Padgett believed his fellow warrior and friend was in an unmarked grave in Nicaragua. When contacted and told the above he expressed his gratitude and great personal relief.
Rest in peace, Bobby.
I remember reading about Echanis in SOF magazine in the early 80's. IIRC he killed himself and a couple others by trying to throw a live hand grenade out of an airplane in Nicaragua. He was also one of the people involved in the men who stare at goats thing.
I did quite a bit of research on Michael and his accomplishments, etc. I heard that he was becoming too rogue and pushing the envelope of what he was involved with-maybe stepping on toes. Heard that the helicopter he and a couple others were in was rigged with an altitude sensitive explosive device and that's what killed them, although he was the target. Funny how so many theories/"facts" arise to complicate the truth. Who knows...?
He and the others were not in a helo. Another myth.
No altitude device, either.
See this link - the Wiki page is spot on - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Echanis
Here is the promised photo of MDE and then MSG Jakovenko after their H2H demo in Puerto Rico as decribed earlier on this thread.
Jakovenko can be seen over Mike's right shoulder.
The Four Rivers Cultural Center in Ontario, Oregon, also features the town's Veteran Memorial Park.
All of the Echanis Family members who have served the Nation have bricks on the walkway.
Major Joseph Y. Echanis (http://taskforceomegainc.org/e002.html). He was listed as MIA at the time.
He was Mike's cousin.
It was for this reason Echanis enlisted as swiftly as he legally could with the expressed intent (of a 19-year old who grew up in a Basque family in eastern Oregon among family members who were vets dating back to WW2) to find out what happend to Major Echanis.
To Mike, according to his family, it didn't matter to him how he got there...SF or otherwise...as long as he did.
Both were reunited when their names were engraved on the same brick in the memorial walkway by the family.
Many years ago Master Chief Nissley (Retired) placed bricks for MDE and Chuck at the UDT/SEAL Museum walkway in Florida. This to honor their training of ST-2 operators at A.P Hill per then ST-2 CDR Richard Marcinko.
"No Fallen Comrade Left Behind".
Just a quick note -
To offer appreciation for the thread from JimH -
All that needs to be said, has been said -
Anyone futher interested can check on the Wiki page on Echanis -
It is detailed, referenced, objective and accurate as possible to date -
EOM - Out
Can anyone further assist in identifying the folks in this picture?
Back row I've identified Mike Echanis, Chuck Sanders, CW Evans, Jimmy Jackson.
Seeking to ID (possibly) Paul Glasser, Gary O'Neal and those others in back row.
Front row, kneeling, Master Chief Bob Nissley and Bru. Does anyone recognize the Marines, please?
Thank you!
Wasn't Randy Wanner a protege of Michael's? I believe he is in several books on Michael's usage of the knife and stick.
Wasn't Randy Wanner a protege of Michael's? I believe he is in several books on Michael's usage of the knife and stick.
Woops, should of read the the wiki article first.;)
Did they ever determine why the airplane crashed? Shot down, mechanical failure, pilot er etc? I know down there things are not always investigated like they are here, just wondering if the cause was ever determined.
After 16 months of research, interviews and FOIA/Presidential Library requests / documentation review -
On September 4, 1978, President Somoza declared open warfare on his government's opponents - http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2457&dat=19780904&id=NxI9AAAAIBAJ&sjid=jy4MAAAAIBAJ&pg=3128,1063611
Raymond Molina, quoted in the article, was also the recruiter for Echanis, Sanders and Bobby Nguyen. Molina, a Cuban-American and veteran of the Bay of Pigs, was a member of the inner circle of President Somoza and GEN Ivan Alegrett.
Echanis was recruited to form and run an intelligence fusion cell that reported to Molina and President Somoza alone. Their information, if and when deemed appropriate, was then passed to the US embassy in Managua via the MilGrp.
Former US Army attache to the embassy in Managua, then Major Juan Montes, recommended Echanis to Molina when the latter contacted his childhood friend at the embassy looking for names. Montes, former company commander at the 5th Group where he knew and was close to Echanis and Sanders, is SF/RGR qualified and a retired colonel today.
On September 8, 1978, the US embassy contacted Molina and advised him a force of Sandinistas had crossed the Costra Rican border with NIC. This force was headed for the southern town of Rivas. the assault was part of the Sandinista "final offensive" for September 1978.
Molina met with Somoza - they called Alegrett - Alegrett offered to fly a recon in his Aero Commander 114-A - Alegrett called Echanis and asked him to fly the recon with him.
Echanis and Sanders were driven to Alegrett's office by Bobby Nguyen. Molina had agreed to fly with them. However, this did not occur and Nguyen took the vacant seat.
GEN Alegrett, nicknamed "El Loco" for things like dropping live grenades placed in glass jars from his aircraft (he was a helo pilot, as well), flew toward Rivas.
Arriving just south of the town they spotted Sandinista fighters and proceeded to recon / drop grenades from the plane.
An EEBI (Home of the Infantry Training Center) patrol witnessed this. They were patrolling near "los Pochotes". The aircraft suffered an explosion inside the aircraft and crashed near the mouth of the Sapoa River.
The EEBI patrol radioed news of the crash and was the first to arrive at the scene. They recovered all four bodies. Echanis, Sanders and Bobby's were taken to El Retiro Hospital in Managua. Due to the number of NIC KIA in the morgue because of the past several days of fighting the three were placed on the morgue's floor.
2nd LT Oscar Mienienta and CPT Juan Rivera, both from the EEBI, were at the morgue that day looking for EEBI dead. They knew the Americans from the EEBI. They discovered the three on the floor and called the EEBI commandante, President Somoza's son.
He contacted his father, the President.
President Somoza called then AMB Solaun at the US embassy.
Solaun sent Telegram 7482 to the Department of State.
"President Somoza informed ambassador this afternoon (Sept 8) and we have heard same reports from other sources in the GN that an aircraft pioloted by GEN Alegrett with three US CITS ONBOARD crashed in Lake Nicaragua south of Rivas and that all aboard are dead. GEN Alegretts' passengers reportedly are Michael Dick Echanis, Charles Wilford Sanders. The third dead passenger was Bobby Lee, a South Vietnamese who, we understand, was recruited at Fort Bragg, North Carolina."
The EEBI patrol leader on site stated "...que habia habido una explosion dentro de la aeronave algo asi como la de una granada fragmentacion, la que causo las explosion del aparato."
US Naval Attache at the US embassy, now retired SEAL Skip Crane, affirms the first reports he heard was that grenades were being dropped from the plane. Crane would be the first American from the embassy to identify Echanis' remains. This at a secure hanger at the international airport.
Crane and CPT Rivera knew each other, as well.
The officlal cause of death on all three's NIC death certificates reads aviation accident - in Echanis' case (Certificate #107432) as an example - "...Michael Echanis, soltero, sin asistencia medica, de accidente aero." Time of the accident is given as 1300 Hours, September 8, 1978.
Additional NIC GN / Medico documents support the cause of death for all three.
US embassy documents signed on September 13, 1978, by Mary Daniel, counsel to the embassy in Managua, affirm the deaths having occurred near Rivas on September 8, 1978.
Embalment and custom caskets were ordered by President Somoza. The caskets were flown from Managua on September 13, 1978, to the United States on La Nica Airlines which Somoza owned.
Early reports of the Aero Commander having been hit by a SAM 7 are false. This story came from Keith "Jack" Idema long after the fact.
Soldier of Fortune published an interview with an alleged OSN officer who claimed Somoza ordered Alegrett be assassinated. Ray Molina, close to Somoza since 1972, says this allegation is absurd. Even SOF said in its article none of what they were told could be supported independenty.
There were, despite a claim otherwise, no Americans at the crash site and no American assisted in the body recovery operation. One American who has claimed otherwise offers he has photos of the crash site and the recovery ops...however he has never produced these over the years. His own given location in NIC when the plane went down places him too far away to have arrived - even by air - before the bodies were dragged from the plane's wreckage and trucked back to Managua.
He, his wife (also American) and two other Americas working as trainers at the EEBI fled the country on the same La Nica flight carrying the dead.
In short, Echanis, Sanders, Nguyen and Alegrett died as the result of a fragmentation grenade detonating inside the plane.
The NIC GN stopped the offensive in brutal fighting by using aerial bombardment of the major cities under attack. Somoza would hang on to power for roughly one more year before abdicating and fleeing first to the US - where he was rebuked and declared Persona non grata - and then to Paraguay.
There he wrote a book about his fall from grace, mentioned Echanis and Alegrett with great praise, and was later assassinated by a Marxist Argentine hit team using submachine guns and RPG-7s.
Can anyone further assist in identifying the folks in this picture?
Back row I've identified Mike Echanis, Chuck Sanders, CW Evans, Jimmy Jackson.
Seeking to ID (possibly) Paul Glasser, Gary O'Neal and those others in back row.
Front row, kneeling, Master Chief Bob Nissley and Bru. Does anyone recognize the Marines, please?
Thank you!
The SGT in the very center of the front row looks like a guy I was in 2d Recon Bn. with named Gibson. He went to 2d Force Recon Co. in 1978ish? Could be wrong, about every Recon unit did MTTs in El Sal or Honduras during the late 70s- '80s. And looking at the barracks, its possibly Rosie Roads or Veiques. I'll run this picture through FRA.
Can anyone further assist in identifying the folks in this picture....
Far left way in the back - looks like Bob Huff. Worked out with the guys a lot. Very slender, whip like. Got out as a Sergeant.
The SGT in the very center of the front row looks like a guy I was in 2d Recon Bn. with named Gibson. He went to 2d Force Recon Co. in 1978ish? Could be wrong, about every Recon unit did MTTs in El Sal or Honduras during the late 70s- '80s. And looking at the barracks, its possibly Rosie Roads or Veiques. I'll run this picture through FRA.
Echanis was very close to and noted in his books reference the Development Team he'd assembled -
That a "Staff Sergeant O'Grady, 2 Force Recon, was a contributing member / representative for the Corps.
Can you check that out, too, please? And is O'Grady possibly in the photo?
Thanks!
Far left way in the back - looks like Bob Huff. Worked out with the guys a lot. Very slender, whip like. Got out as a Sergeant.
Thanks. Helpful. Something to follow up on. Was he 5th Group and if so do you recall which company?
Thanks!
Gary O'Neal also noted in Echanis' books in the SORDG dedication.
His assignment at the time is given as "Staff Sergeant O'Neal, Ranger Instructor and 82nd Airborne Raider Recondo/Hand to Hand Combat Special Weapons Instructors' Team.
1st Class Petty Officer Paaaina, SEAL Team 2, is also noted. Do any SEAL/UDT members know of him? UDT/SEAL Association?
I am in touch with Master Chief Nissley and SGM Jakovenko reference this time period.
Thanks!
Thanks. Helpful. Something to follow up on. Was he 5th Group and if so do you recall which company?
Thanks!
A/3/5th - may have been Jim Huff - but last name was Huff.
A/3/5th - may have been Jim Huff - but last name was Huff.
Thanks. Apprciate the assist.
Echanis was very close to and noted in his books reference the Development Team he'd assembled -
That a "Staff Sergeant O'Grady, 2 Force Recon, was a contributing member / representative for the Corps.
Can you check that out, too, please? And is O'Grady possibly in the photo?
Thanks!
Will do! It makes sense that O'Grady is from 2d Force, IF that's Gibson. And I may be wrong.
Scott Wimberley
09-18-2014, 01:16
Can anyone further assist in identifying the folks in this picture?
Back row I've identified Mike Echanis, Chuck Sanders, CW Evans, Jimmy Jackson.
Seeking to ID (possibly) Paul Glasser, Gary O'Neal and those others in back row.
Front row, kneeling, Master Chief Bob Nissley and Bru. Does anyone recognize the Marines, please?
Thank you!
That is me standing next to Chuck in the back row.
I think that might be Jack Alvarez second from the left in back row.
Scott Wimberley
09-18-2014, 01:31
In response to the request on this thread to help ID those in a photo:
I am standing in the back row next to Chuck.
I think the second from the left in the second row might be Jack Alvarez. Jack would be the second from the left if you considered that there is a single man in the third row. Jack would be the third from the left if you were to decide there are only 2 rows.
Scott, your post count shows only 2 posts and you have a join date of 2010. Your intro may have been lost in the intro thread that went missing. Make another to keep everyone on the same sheet.
And Yes, that does look like Jack. I saw him a couple of years ago and he is one of those people who age very well - looked about the same as he did in the younger years. He was like "I know you.." snapped his fingers a couple of times and "Pete, yeah that's it."
Wilcox the big bruiser?
Not an 8th SFGA flash but the branch unassigned colors jump wings oval we used to wear in Group and while going through SFTG unless you were assigned to the 10th SFGA or IMA which had different ovals.
Richard :munchin
Yep!
Wore the baseball hat with wings and this background while in Training Group.
I seem to recall the wings on the baseball hat were silver not the black subdued like you would have thought. Can someone correct my old memories here?
Same background behind our wings on the Class A uniform.
Never wore the beret with or without the "candy flash" while in Training Group, only the coveted baseball hat. 1976-78 time-frame