The True Meaning of the Second Amendment

[Snaquebite]

Interesting article.

http://www.cmosnetworks.com/TheTrueMeaningOfTheSecondAmendment.html

[cbtengr]

Two and a half years since it was updated and as relevant now as it was back then in 2010, thanks for the post.

[Streck-Fu]

So, if the Second Amendment had been written using today's style of writing, it would read like this:

"A well-regulated military being necessary to the security of a free state,

I disagree with some of the author's reasoning. Militia does not equate to a modern professional Army. The militia was and is meant to be comprised of the citizens of the several states. A professional army is an agent of the State (government). It is the purpose of the 2nd Am to ensure the citizens can protect themselves from a tyrannical government and its agents.

[Ret10Echo]

I believe any thoughts on "True meaning" of the words contained in the Constitution require one to take into account the morals, attitudes, mindset and recent experiences of those composing the words.


Armies existed...why would one believe they would use the term militia?

The right of the "people" is specifically expressed...

[ZonieDiver]

A gripe I have with 'talking heads' who opposed gun control is they rarely seem to talk about the meaing of "militia" in the time when the Constitution was written.

Even the NRA seems to frame the debate in terms of "hunters' and hobbyists' rights"!

They also do not delve into the meaning of the word "well-regulated" in those days.

[fng13]

A gripe I have with 'talking heads' who opposed gun control is they rarely seem to talk about the meaing of "militia" in the time when the Constitution was written.

Even the NRA seems to frame the debate in terms of "hunters' and hobbyists' rights"!

They also do not delve into the meaning of the word "well-regulated" in those days.

That is because after years of media (rightly in some cases and wrongly in others)

portraying a militia as a bunch of extremist paranoid fuds, the talking head would

lose all credibility as soon as they mention the word.



I agree with you, and am baffled by those who read or "interpret" the 2nd Amendment any other way.

[Pete]

Organized vs Unorganized Militia

Haven't seen that one kicked around in a while

[Badger52]

They also do not delve into the meaning of the word "well-regulated" in those days.Amen. I believe in the jargon of the day this would now be "well-trained" "competently led" "proficient."

Doubtless, many here have experience in both observing & fostering that condition.

[ZonieDiver]

Amen. I believe in the jargon of the day this would now be "well-trained" "competently led" "proficient."

Doubtless, many here have experience in both observing & fostering that condition.

In one of the Federalist papers, Hamilton opined that it also meant "well-armed"!

So... is the 'solution' to have the Feds fund, and (in their infinite abilities) require the states to form militias - both organized and unorganized. Organized would be every able bodied man between 18-65. No pay except for travel expenses to monthly meetings. A 'cadre' could be formed with minimal pay for training and admin. Once past 65 - into the Unorganized Militia - similar to today's IRR - name on a list.

Only these people could have the dreaded "military type" firearms.

[rob99vmi04]

Found this VERY INTERESTING!!!!



http://yarchive.net/gun/politics/regulate.html


On the original meaning of the 2nd Amendment
Henry E. Schaffer

"Whereas in all well regulated Governments, it is the indispensable duty
of every Legislature to consult the Happiness of a rising Generation,
and endeavour to fit them for an honorable Discharge of the Social
Duties of Life, by paying the strictest attention to their Education."

These resounding words were the opening of a November 12, 1789 Act of
the North Carolina Legislature which was passed on December 11, 1789 and
which chartered the University of North Carolina. Noting that this Act
was contemporaneous with the Bill of Rights (which was transmitted to the
state legislatures on September 25, 1789) and that the North Carolina
Legislature was active at that time, North Carolina being one of the
original 13 states, let us pay particular attention to the usage of the
words "well regulated" found both in this Act and in the 2nd Amendment
of the BoR. The use of "well regulated" in this act can shed some light
on the meaning of the 2nd Amendment.

The 2nd Amendment reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary
to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and
bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The debate between the collectivist and the individualist
interpretations of the 2nd has often focused on the meaning of "well
regulated" in the opening phrase "well regulated Militia". The
collectivists claim this this refers to a Militia which is tightly
controlled by the government, deducing this from the etymology of
"regulated" which relates to "ruled". However, this ignores the usage
of the word "regulate" in which the "rule" refers to the proper
operations of a device rather than to man-made laws. We still see this
in the word "regular", which in many contexts means "properly operating."

Let me give two examples of usage of the word "regulate" which have
been in existence for quite a long time and which have the same
"properly operating" interpretation.

1) Horology: The adjustment of a portable timepiece so it will keep
time in the different positions in which it may be carried and kept (and
perhaps at the different temperatures which it may encounter.) A
(mechanical) wrist-watch which has been so designed and adjusted is said
to be "regulated" and likely has this word stamped or engraved on its
back-plate.

2)Firearms: The adjustment of a multi-barrel firearm (e.g., a double
barrelled shotgun) so that the barrels shoot to the same point-of-aim.
If such a gun (a double-barrelled shotgun or a three barreled "drilling")
fails to shoot properly, it is considered to be "out of regulation" and
needs to be "re-regulated".

Both of these uses have meanings *related* to the "to rule" of
man-made laws, but are more in the nature of "to adjust to or to be in
a state of proper functioning". So a "well regulated watch" or a "well
regulated double barreled shotgun" both would have meaning of "having
been put into properly functioning condition".

From my reading of material from the colonial era, I have come to
understand that "well regulated militia" had a meaning at that time
(ca. 1789) in the nature of "a properly functioning militia" - which
would mean something along the lines of a properly trained and equipped
militia (since it was common at that time for militiamen to bring their
own firearms, with which they were already proficient.)

The language of the NC Legislature in 1789 strengthens this
interpretation. What can "well regulated Governments" mean other
than "properly functioning Governments"? Surely it didn't and
couldn't refer to a government under the control of man-made laws, for
it is the government itself which makes these laws, and it would neither
be noble nor sensible for the Legislature to be proclaiming that it is
controlling itself.

An additional contemporaneous document which exhibits the same
meaning is the Federalist Paper #29, in which Hamilton is discussing
the composition of the militia and says, "To oblige the great body of
the yeomanry, and of the other classes of the citizens, to be under
arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and
evolutions, as often as might be necessary to_acquire_the_degree_of_
perfection_which_would_entitle_them_to_the_charact er_of_a_
well-regulated_militia, would be a real grievance to the people, and a
serious public inconvenience and loss." (emphasis added)

Note that "well-regulated" clearly refers to how well the militia
functions and how well trained are the militia members. It does not
refer at all to the degree to which the government controls the militia
or the members of the militia.

This interpretation is also borne out by some old or obsolete
definitions in the Oxford English Dictionary. "Regulated" has an
Obsolete definition (b) "Of troops: Properly disciplined" and then
"discipline" has a definition (3b) applying to the military, "Training
in the practice of arms and military evolutions; drill. Formerly, more
widely: Training or skill in military affairs generally; military skill
and experience; the art of war."

The "people" have the 2nd Amendment right, not the militia. Today
many people make a large distinction between the two groups, perhaps
confusing "militia" and "Army". The militia is more inclusive,
including the Armed Forces, the National Guard and the unorganized
component described in the U.S. Code as "The militia of the United
States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and,
except [for felons], under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a
declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States..."
The age and gender restrictions might be challenged as discriminatory.
The historical basis for a more inclusive definition includes the U. S.
Supreme Court statement that "It is undoubtedly true that all citizens
capable of bearing arms constitute the reserved militia force or
reserve militia of the United States as well as the States; ..." From
this we see that the mention of the militia does not conflict with the
individualist interpretation.

Therefore I conclude that the meaning of the 2nd Amendment is, "A
properly functioning Militia is necessary to the security of a free
State; therefore the (pre-existing) right of the people to keep and bear
Arms shall not be infringed."

References:

Act of NC Legislature of Nov. 12, 1789 - Legislative Papers, H. of C.,
1789, AH. Cited in A Documentary History of The University of North
Carolina 1776-1799 Compiled and Annotated by R. D. W. Connor The
University of North Carolina Press 1953. Volume 1, page 23.

Original Charter of the University, December 11, 1789, An Act to
Establish a University in this State. N. C. Laws, 1789, S. R., XXV,
Chap. XX, 21-25. Cited in Connor (1953) Volume 1, page 34.

Federalist Paper #29

Oxford English Dictionary, Second Edition, 1989.

United States Code, Title 10, Section 311(a)

Supreme Court, Presser v. Illinois 116 U.S. 252

[Streck-Fu]

In one of the Federalist papers, Hamilton opined that it also meant "well-armed"!


Federalist 29....LINK (http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa29.htm)

[DJ Urbanovsky]

I actually enjoyed that. If I'd seen this link anywhere else, I probably wouldn't have finished reading it, but I'm glad that I did. About midway through, you think he's going to zig and instead he zags. Nice.


Interesting article.

http://www.cmosnetworks.com/TheTrueMeaningOfTheSecondAmendment.html

[grog18b]

I can understand where he is coming from. He is saying that, because our Nation needs an Army, and since that Army could be used by a nefarious leader against it's own people, the right of "The People" to keep and bear arms for their protection against that Army shall not be infringed.

The 2nd Amendment reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary
to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and
bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Most assume that the "militia" in that paragraph is referring to all the people capable of being in the military and that "We the people" comprise that "Militia". I can see it his way... Perhaps a better way of writing it to show that would be:

"Because a well regulated Military, is necessary for the security of a free State; the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


He makes a good point, but I'm tired and medicated... ;)

[Scimitar]

IMO, the issue is excellence v perfection.

And the anti-gun lobby revisionists will make it say what ever suits them.

It's been said that governing is like farming, it's not a tidy business, and you will get mud on your shoes. It's not about perfection, it is about excellence and they're two very different things.

The issue I find with the left wing is their twist on humanism - i.e. Utopian goals.

IMO, having guns in our society is not perfect, therefore the liberal base want to "fix it" by banning guns.

Another example is having poor people in our society is not perfect, so the liberals want to fix it with Socialism, the greater of two evils.

Something that doesn't need to be said here, is that no guns is the greater of two evils.

Just my $0.02

S

[Box]

stop being difficult and turn in your guns so we can make crime go away.....

[tonyz]

An article published in the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy which might be of interest to some.

WOULD BANNING FIREARMS REDUCE MURDER AND SUICIDE?
A REVIEW OF INTERNATIONAL AND SOME DOMESTIC EVIDENCE

DON B. KATES AND GARY MAUSER

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

[Richard]

Like debating the "true" meaning of scripture... :rolleyes:

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin

[T-Rock]

Like debating the "true" meaning of scripture...

Penn & Teller sum it up rather nicely… :D

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GNu7ldL1LM

[ZonieDiver]

I didn't read their mental masturbation but I have seen lots of folks attempt and succeed at suicide. If they really want to do it they will find a way.

Why do you choose to classify this study as "mental masturbation"? It seems an odd thing to do, especially while admitting you have not read, or even skimmed through its contents.

I found it informative and enlightening, and consider myself an expert on masturbation - mental and otherwise.

[Streck-Fu]

I didn't read their mental masturbation but I have seen lots of folks attempt and succeed at suicide. If they really want to do it they will find a way.

Read it. It does not contain what you think it contains.

[MR2]

Beware academics bearing gifts...

[SF18C]

stop being difficult and turn in your guns so we can make crime go away.....

You first!:D

[Pericles]

We can have a fairly good idea of what the founders meant via the Militia Act of 1792:

The Militia Act of 1792, Passed May 8, 1792.

An ACT more effectually to provide for the National Defence, by establishing an Uniform Militia throughout the United States.

I. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, That each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective States, resident therein, who is or shall be of age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years (except as is herein after excepted) shall severally and respectively be enrolled in the militia, by the Captain or Commanding Officer of the company, within whose bounds such citizen shall reside, and that within twelve months after the passing of this Act. And it shall at all time hereafter be the duty of every such Captain or Commanding Officer of a company, to enroll every such citizen as aforesaid, and also those who shall, from time to time, arrive at the age of 18 years, or being at the age of 18 years, and under the age of 45 years (except as before excepted) shall come to reside within his bounds; and shall without delay notify such citizen of the said enrollment, by the proper non-commissioned Officer of the company, by whom such notice may be proved. That every citizen, so enrolled and notified, shall, within six months thereafter, provide himself with a good musket or firelock, a sufficient bayonet and belt, two spare flints, and a knapsack, a pouch, with a box therein, to contain not less than twenty four cartridges, suited to the bore of his musket or firelock, each cartridge to contain a proper quantity of powder and ball; or with a good rifle, knapsack, shot-pouch, and powder-horn, twenty balls suited to the bore of his rifle, and a quarter of a pound of powder; and shall appear so armed, accoutred and provided, when called out to exercise or into service, except, that when called out on company days to exercise only, he may appear without a knapsack. That the commissioned Officers shall severally be armed with a sword or hanger, and espontoon; and that from and after five years from the passing of this Act, all muskets from arming the militia as is herein required, shall be of bores sufficient for balls of the eighteenth part of a pound; and every citizen so enrolled, and providing himself with the arms, ammunition and accoutrements, required as aforesaid, shall hold the same exempted from all suits, distresses, executions or sales, for debt or for the payment of taxes.

II. And be it further enacted, That the Vice-President of the United States, the Officers, judicial and executives, of the government of the United States; the members of both houses of Congress, and their respective officers; all custom house officers, with the clerks; all post officers, and stage-drivers who are employed in the care and conveyance of the mail of the post office of the United States; all Ferrymen employed at any ferry on the post road; all inspectors of exports; all pilots, all mariners actually employed in the sea service of any citizen or merchant within the United States; and all persons who now are or may be hereafter exempted by the laws of the respective states, shall be and are hereby exempted from militia duty, notwithstanding their being above the age of eighteen and under the age of forty-five years.

III. And be it further enacted, That within one year after the passing of the Act, the militia of the respective states shall be arranged into divisions, brigades, regiments, battalions, and companies, as the legislature of each state shall direct; and each division, brigade, and regiment, shall be numbered at the formation thereof; and a record made of such numbers of the Adjutant-General's office in the state; and when in the field, or in serviced in the state, such division, brigade, and regiment shall, respectively, take rank according to their numbers, reckoning the first and lowest number highest in rank. That if the same be convenient, each brigade shall consist of four regiments; each regiment of two battalions; each battalion of five companies; each company of sixty-four privates. That the said militia shall be officered by the respective states, as follows: To each division on Major-General, with two Aids-de-camp, with the rank of major; to each brigade, one brigadier-major, with the rank of a major; to each company, one captain, one lieutenant, one ensign, four serjeants, four corporals, one drummer, and one fifer and bugler. That there shall be a regimental staff, to consist of one adjutant, and one quartermaster, to rank as lieutenants; one paymaster; one surgeon, and one surgeon's mate; one serjeant-major; one drum- major, and one fife-major.

IV. And be it further enacted, That out of the militia enrolled as is herein directed, there shall be formed for each battalion, as least one company of grenadiers, light infantry or riflemen; and that each division there shall be, at least, one company of artillery, and one troop of horse: There shall be to each company of artillery, one captain, two lieutenants, four serjeants, four corporals, six gunners, six bombardiers, one drummer, and one fifer. The officers to be armed with a sword or hanger, a fusee, bayonet and belt, with a cartridge box to contain twelve cartridges; and each private of matoss shall furnish themselves with good horses of at least fourteen hands and an half high, and to be armed with a sword and pair of pistols, the holsters of which to be covered with bearskin caps. Each dragoon to furnish himself with a serviceable horse, at least fourteen hands and an half high, a good saddle, bridle, mail-pillion and valise, holster, and a best plate and crupper, a pair of boots and spurs; a pair of pistols, a sabre, and a cartouchbox to contain twelve cartridges for pistols. That each company of artillery and troop of horse shall be formed of volunteers from the brigade, at the discretion of the Commander in Chief of the State, not exceeding one company of each to a regiment, nor more in number than one eleventh part of the infantry, and shall be uniformly clothed in raiments, to be furnished at their expense, the colour and fashion to be determined by the Brigadier commanding the brigade to which they belong.

V. And be it further enacted, That each battalion and regiment shall be provided with the state and regimental colours by the Field-Officers, and each company with a drum and fife or bugle-horn, by the commissioned officers of the company, in such manner as the legislature of the respective States shall direct.

VI. And be it further enacted, That there shall be an adjutant general appointed in each state, whose duty it shall be to distribute all orders for the Commander in Chief of the State to the several corps; to attend all publick reviews, when the Commander in Chief of the State shall review the militia, or any part thereof; to obey all orders from him relative to carrying into execution, and perfecting, the system of military discipline established by this Act; to furnish blank forms of different returns that may be required; and to explain the principles of which they should be made; to receive from the several officers of the different corps throughout the state, returns of the militia under their command, reporting the actual situation of their arms, accoutrements, and ammunition, their delinquencies, and every other thing which relates to the general advancement of good order and discipline: All which, the several officers of the division, brigades, regiments, and battalions are hereby required to make in the usual manner, so that the said adjutant general may be duly furnished therewith: From all which returns be shall make proper abstracts, and by the same annually before the Commander in Chief of the State.

VII. And be it further enacted, That the rules of discipline, approved and established by Congress, in their resolution of the twenty-ninth of March, 1779, shall be the rules of discipline so be observed by the militia throughout the United States, except such deviations from the said rules, as may be rendered necessary by the requisitions of the Act, or by some other unavoidable circumstances. It shall be the duty of the Commanding Officer as every muster, whether by battalion, regiment, or single company, to cause the militia to be exercised and trained, agreeably to the said rules of said discipline.

VIII. And be it further enacted, That all commissioned officers shall take rank according to the date of their commissions; and when two of the same grade bear an equal date, then their rank to be determined by lots, to be drawn by them before the Commanding officers of the brigade, regiment, battalion, company or detachment.

IX. And be it further enacted That if any person whether officer or solder, belonging to the militia of any state, and called out into the service of the United States, be wounded or disabled, while in actual service, he shall be taken care of and provided for at the publick expense.

[Pericles]

Part II

X. And be it further enacted, That it shall be the duty of the brigade inspector, to attend the regimental and battalion meeting of the militia composing their several brigades, during the time of their being under arms, to inspect their arms, ammunition and accoutrements; superintend their exercise and maneuvres and introduce the system of military discipline before described, throughout the brigade, agreeable to law, and such orders as they shall from time to time receive from the commander in Chief of the State; to make returns to the adjutant general of the state at least once in every year, of the militia of the brigade to which he belongs, reporting therein the actual situation of the arms, accoutrement, and ammunition, of the several corps, and every other thing which, in his judgment, may relate to their government and general advancement of good order and military disciple; an adjutant general shall make a return of all militia of the state, to the Commander in Chief of the said state, and a duplicate of the same to the president of the United States.

And whereas sundry corps of artillery, cavalry and infantry now exist in several of the said states, which by the laws, customs, or usages thereof, have not been incorporated with, or subject to the general regulation of the militia.

XI. Be it enacted, That such corps retain their accustomed privileges subject, nevertheless, to all other duties required by this Act, in like manner with the other militias.

[Razor]

Once again, the status and standing of a militia became irrelevant in the 2A argument after the Hellar and Miller SCOTUS decisions, whereby the 2A was determined that the right to possess firearms is an individual right, membership in an organized or unorganized militia notwithstanding. Further debate regarding the militia IRT the 2A is either a mental exercise or a Red Herring.

[Peregrino]

The 2nd Amendment works as intended when required and enough people are fed up with tyranny.

http://constitution.org/mil/tn/batathen.htm

I invite everyone's attention to the NYT take on the matter. Some things never change.

[craigepo]

An interesting take on the reason for the 2nd Amendment.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/336529/regulating-militia-kevin-d-williamson