View Full Version : 27 Dead, Including 18 Children, In Elementary School Shooting In Newtown, Conn.
CA_TacMedic
12-14-2012, 12:27
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/12/14/police-respond-to-report-of-school-shooting-in-conn/
A sad day. Aday to keep those affected in your prayers. Not a day for political crap. Very, very sad.
Wallace
Truly horrible. Words aren't enough...those poor children. And their families...all at Christmas....
JohnnyBlack
12-14-2012, 12:32
Happened a few towns over from me. Ran many calls in the area.
This is an absolute tragedy...at a complete loss for words.
May god bless this community.
My heart cries for the children and their families. May God be with them all.
Chris Cram
12-14-2012, 12:54
My heart cries for the children and their families. May God be with them all.
Amen...
KimuraFTW
12-14-2012, 12:59
I'm practically speechless. With Christmas around the corner, I pray that God looks after all the affected families. I can't imagine how hard it's going to be to cope with this tragedy... :(
TrapLine
12-14-2012, 13:03
Prayers out for the families. It is hard to find the right words...
Prayers are out to all those poor little children and their families.:(
What a horrific tragedy.
Holly
Sad news - prayers out.
This happens all over the world:
Knife-wielding man injures 22 children in China (http://www.courant.com/sns-rt-us-china-stabbingsbre8bd065-20121213,0,5592318.story)
Edit:
The worst mass school murder in American history took place on May 18, 1927 in Bath Township, Mich., when a former school board member set off three bombs that killed 45 people.
PedOncoDoc
12-14-2012, 13:22
My heart weeps and my blood boils. There are no words for the tragic loss of innocent children. Prayers out to all affected by this.
MTN Medic
12-14-2012, 13:27
There is nothing but rage and sadness in my heart right now. Senseless and nauseating.
mark46th
12-14-2012, 13:28
Awful, unimaginable, un-necessary...
medic&commo
12-14-2012, 13:32
Tragic senseless loss, please let the media coverage be about the families, not about an agenda.
m&c
TacOfficer
12-14-2012, 13:49
The sorrow and pain that these families feel, I cannot articulate or imagine.
May God be with them and those touched by this tragedy.
Jersey Dirtbag
12-14-2012, 13:51
Apparently this human scum lived in my city, just a few blocks from me. Unspeakably frustrating that pieces of shit like this exist, especially in such close proximity.
Edit: as it turns out, it's not the killer who lived in Hoboken, but his brother.
ECUPirate09
12-14-2012, 14:05
My blood is boiling. Thoughts are with the families.
Media, get the cameras out of the faces of these kids.
Dozer523
12-14-2012, 14:23
TV report is it was the son of a teacher who killed his brother then went for Mom and the kids in her classroom. Shooter is dead.
DIYPatriot
12-14-2012, 14:26
I took the day off to be at home with our son and daughter (both under age 5). Got a text this morning saying that one of our LEO's was gunned down and killed in the line of duty (a mother of 4) (http://www.wmctv.com/story/20346380/one-mpd-officer-dead-after-shooting). She's friends with several soldiers in my wife's MP unit. I turned on the news to get updates about her and see this horrible tragedy unfolding before my eyes.
My heart is breaking in so many directions right now. Those poor kids and their families. I just don't have the words
Badger52
12-14-2012, 14:43
Obama using it to call for gun control without using the words.Yup, heard that. Just couldn't not do it.
Utah Bob
12-14-2012, 14:44
Horrible beyond belief.
spherojon
12-14-2012, 15:47
I have no words for something like this. My thoughts and prayers are out to the families. Un-freakin-believable...
As others have said, words are not enough to properly state everthing I feel about this tragedy...... And unfortunately my second thoughts are on where to hide MY lawfully owned weapons.
Prayers out to the families and all affected. CSM-H
I've been on the road all morning and listening to this - according to the State Police sopkesman:
27 dead - 20 kindergartners, their teacher (the shooter's mother), principal, and 3 other adults at the school, the father of the shooter who he apparently killed earlier, and the shooter (20 yo male).
18 kids were listed dead at the school; 2 others were seriously wounded and pronounced dead at the hospital where they were taken.
The lone survivor of the shooter's family is his 24 yo brother.
What a terrible situation. :eek: :( :mad:
Richard :munchin
Red Flag 1
12-14-2012, 17:39
Words fail me, I feel such deep sorrow. May the departed Rest In God's Peace. May we someday find answers to end such events, that day can not be too soon.
RF 1
Team Sergeant
12-14-2012, 17:41
A senseless slaughter by an insane coward. So many families in such pain. I could not even imagine what that town and those people are going through right now.
It's crazy that the actions of one insane individual can bring an entire nation to tears.
This is so terrible and tragic, may God be with them all. RIP little ones, and the adults killed as well. Except for the perp, he can rot in hell.
I'm adding my prayers for the first responders. I cannot imagine...
Words fail me, I feel such deep sorrow. May the departed Rest In God's Peace. May we someday find answers to end such events, that day can not be too soon.
RF 1
Very well stated nothing more that I can say. I pray for us all.
My heart breaks for the families who lost their little ones and loved ones. Hell is too good a place for that monster.
Prayers for all the families mourning in what should be a very joyous season, but is forever altered in the blink of an eye.
Susan (who has the urge to go hug her kids...)
SomethingWitty
12-14-2012, 23:22
This has been all sorts of awful.
I am really dissapointed that the major news networks thought that it would be appropriate to interview the kids immediatly after it happened.
My thoughts and prayers with the families of this senseless tragedy
mojaveman
12-15-2012, 11:47
A sad day indeed.
I wish these type of people would quit taking out their rage on others and instead do themselves in.
God be with the families of the victims.
I pray with you. Something is going wrong in the world.
"So another mass-murder conducted by a product of government schools, in a government school, under the government-recommended/mandated care of a government-employed/licensed shrink, on government-approved and government-promoted mind-altering drugs, in a government-mandated weapon-free zone, protected by a government agency the government claims 'serves and protects' (though it is incapable of doing so). Clearly the problem is guns." Via Lew Rockwell
The following table lists the worldwide mass and school shootings from 1996 to the present. Find the date, location, and a short description of each incident.
Read more: Time Line of Worldwide School Shootings — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html#ixzz2FdHYCMTp
Badger52
12-20-2012, 20:30
Thanks for that link. Insufficient dots; the matching link for the timeline of gun control legislation (http://www.infoplease.com/spot/guntime1.html) doesn't tell how many it magically prevented. Shucks.
Funny, I didn't seem to find a bunch of home-schoolers roving the neigborhoods looking for classmate targets.
steel_eel
12-20-2012, 21:19
The following table lists the worldwide mass and school shootings from 1996 to the present. Find the date, location, and a short description of each incident.
Read more: Time Line of Worldwide School Shootings — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777/958.html#ixzz2FdHYCMTp
Guess the Fort Hood shooting didn't count? Am I missing something?
Guess the Fort Hood shooting didn't count? Am I missing something?
I'm thinking there are a few things missing. Maybe they didn't consider terrorist acts, err rather "workplace violence" in their calculations.
He had 2 pistols in the school, the AR was left in the car, then he had 4 pistols, the AR was used in the school and shotgun was left inthe car....and now the media is reporting Lanza WAS NOT wearing body Armour....
http://www.countytimes.com/articles/2012/12/28/news/doc50dd9fc78081c911948569.txt
Who knows what to believe....
Can we blame this on a Youtube video?
Interesting proposal and conversation about arming teachers in Colorado.
Discussed on the Mike Rosen show 1/2/12 10AM hour (http://www.850koa.com/cc-common/podcast/single_page.html?more_page=1&podcast=shows_rosen&selected_podcast=Rosen01-02-13-10AM_1357150126_20681.mp3).
Podcast is 36 min and is usually available for about a week or two.
TV report is it was the son of a teacher who killed his brother then went for Mom and the kids in her classroom. Shooter is dead.
I think you need to find a more reliable new source!
ddoering
01-03-2013, 16:08
Actually that was the initial report.
Sandy Hook media myths (http://www.wnd.com/2013/01/sandy-hook-media-myths/)
Exclusive: Molotov Mitchell reveals Lanza did not use or have an AR-15 rifle
Sandy Hook media myths (http://www.wnd.com/2013/01/sandy-hook-media-myths/)
Exclusive: Molotov Mitchell reveals Lanza did not use or have an AR-15 rifle
You mean the media lied to us?
medic&commo
01-09-2013, 21:25
What about the medical examiner, H. Wayne Carver, MD?
Did he:
a) Lie
b) Do a poor acting job (not the REAL medical examiner)
c) Take drugs prior to the interview
d) All of the above
Question: Doctor, on that examination, could you tell which caliber of the handgun compared to the rifle on these shooting victims were?
Carver: It’s a good thing there’s not be a prosecution ’cause then I couldn’t answer that. All the wounds that I know of at this point are caused by the one weapon.
Question: So the rifle was the primary weapon?
Carver: Yes.
Question: What caliber was used?
Carver: The question was what caliber were these bullets. And I know I probably know more about firearms than most pathologists but if I say it in court, they yell at me and make me answer. So I’ll let the police deal with that for you.
Question: Doctor, can you tell about the nature of the wounds? Were they at very close range? Were the children shot from across the room?
Carver: I only did 7 of the autopsies. Victims I had ranged from 3 to 11 wounds apiece, and I only saw 2 of them with close-range shooting. But that’s – you know, that’s a sample. I really don’t have detailed information on the rest of the injuries.
Question: Wait, you said it was the long rifle that was used? [inaudible, overlapping audio]
Carver: Yes.
Question: How many bullet casings at the crime scene did you find total? [inaudible]
Carver: I’m looking – I can tell you how many I found. I don’t know…there were lots of them, okay? This type of weapon is not – the bullets are designed in such a fashion that the energy – this is very clinical, I shouldn’t be saying this – but the energy is deposited in the tissue and so the bullets stays in.
Question: Did the children die quickly? Are you able to tell that?
Carver: That’s always a difficult question and obviously, I don’t have – I don’t have detailed information on all of them but this is a very devastating set of injuries.
Question: Did they suffer?
Carver: I don’t – I don’t. The best of my ability to answer that question, which is always less than perfect – if so, not for very long.
Question: [inaudible]
Carver: All the ones – I believe so, yes.
Question: [inaudible]
Carver: We did not bring the bodies and the families into contact. We took pictures of them of their facial features. It’s easier on the families when you do that. There is a time and a place for up close and personal in the grieving process. But to accomplish this, we felt it would be best to do it this way, and you can sort of – you can control the situation, depending on the photographer and I have very good photographers.
Question: Do you know the difference between the time of deaths between the body that was recovered from the house and the bodies of the children?
Carver: No, I don’t. Sorry, I don’t.
Question: How young was the youngest victim? How old was the oldest victim?
Carver: You all will have to look at the spreadsheet when we pass it out. I’m sorry.
Question: [inaudible]
Carver: All the ones I don’t know – I first, everybody I dealt with, I believe they were all first graders.
Question: Did the gunman kill himself with the rifle?
Carver: No. I don’t know yet. I’ll examine him tomorrow morning. But I don’t think so.
Question: [overlapping audio]
Carver: I have not seen here yet.
Question: [inaudible]
Carver: …Paul and company will deal with that. Paul and company – Lt. Vance.
Question: You said that all of the children you personally examined were shot multiple times. [inaudible]
Carver: We discussed this briefly with the staff before I came here. There was – I believe everybody was hit more than once.
Question: Was there any evidence of a struggle? Any bruises or…?
Question: Sir, the nature of the shooting, was there any sense that there was a lot of care taken to [inaudible] or was it spread randomly?
Carver: Both. It’s a very difficult question to answer. It’s really…You’d think after the thousands of people I’ve seen shot I could answer that question but I – if I attempted to answer it in court, there’d be an objection and they’d win.
Question: Doctor, can you describe the 7 kids you worked on personally…what did these kids look like when they came to you? What were they wearing?
Carver: Well, they were wearing kids’ stuff. I mean, they were first graders. They were wearing cut kids’ stuff. It’s the kind of stuff you’d send your kids to your grandkids…
Question: Doctor, can you describe the fatal injuries to the adults?
Carver: They’re similar to those of the children.
Question: Doctor, the children you’ve autopsied, where on their bodies were their wounds?
Carver: All over. All over.
Question: What about the mother?
Carver: I have not examined her yet. That will be tomorrow morning.
Question: Were they sitting at desks or were they running away?
Carver: I’ll let the guys – the scene guys address that issue. Obviously, I was at the scene. Obviously, I’m very experienced in that. But there are people who are the number one professionals in that. I’ll let them go over…
Question: You said that the bodies you examined 7 had 3 to 11 shots?
Carver: That’s just the ones that I did.
Question: So this man was there shooting repeatedly…
Carver: I think the guys who did the crime scene are going to be able to tell you how many cartridges were found.
Question: Is there a protocol for the order you did the autopsies? Like the mother and the…
Carver: Other – our goal was to get the kids out and available to the funeral directors first. Just for, well – obviously -
Question: How many boys and how many girls?
Carver: I don’t know.
Question: [inaudible]
Carver: Yeah, there’s been times in my career where I – for reasons I don’t appreciate – go into a locker and sit down and cry. And I think if you don’t have to do that you shouldn’t be in this business. But for this one, not yet. Notice I said yet.
http://www.whatthefolly.com/2012/12/23/transcript-press-briefing-remarks-by-connecticuts-chief-medical-examiner-on-the-newtown-shooting-victims/
m&c
ZonieDiver
01-09-2013, 21:28
Without research (shame on me) into this situation, let me say that "medical examiners" in some lesser populated areas are notorious for "getting things wrong"!
("This was NO boating accident!")
What about the medical examiner, H. Wayne Carver, MD?
It is idiots like this that give conspiracy theories a leg up.
Same site different briefing
http://www.whatthefolly.com/2012/12/24/transcript-connecticut-state-police-briefing-on-the-sandy-hook-shooting-on-dec-16-2012/
The weapon that was utilized most of the time during this horrific crime was identified as a Bushmaster AR-15 assault type weapon. It had high-capacity magazines.
In addition to that, the subject had in his possession a Glock 10mm, a Sig Sauer 9mm – both weapons – all weapons had multiple magazines and additional ammunition.
The fourth weapon recovered was a shotgun that was recovered from the suspect’s vehicle that was parked outside the school.
The Reaper
01-09-2013, 22:24
And this guy is a state prefessional. :rolleyes:
I am not sure he really answered any of the questions definitively.
If you let a killer with a double barreled shotgun and his pockets full of shells wander school hallways blasting children and reloading without armed opposition for ten minutes, he would have a similar body count. I don't see the normal capacity mags being relevant. Hell, a machete would have been horrific as well.
The bottom line remains. Crazy people should not have access to weapons.
TR
NBC aired this report that a rifle was NOT used in the shooting, and that Lanza had an altercation at the school days before the incident, and that he also tried to purchase a rifle, but was denied. I have tried to find this report on the web, it proves difficult to do so, as it does not support the anti-guns assertion that an assault weapon was used in Sandy HooK.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30sjtuXcvOE
Everyone grab your tinfoils hats...the guys that blew up the W.T.C. planned Sandy Hook!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx9GxXYKx_8&sns=fb
How can a coroner tell what particular model/brand was used from the wounds? Is the difference between a colt AR and a bushmaster AR which are similarly configured significant enough to affect what a coroner would see in the wounds?
Note: He said "the wounds were all caused by the long gun".
NBC aired this report that a rifle was NOT used in the shooting, and that Lanza had an altercation at the school days before the incident, and that he also tried to purchase a rifle, but was denied. I have tried to find this report on the web, it proves difficult to do so, as it does not support the anti-guns assertion that an assault weapon was used in Sandy HooK.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30sjtuXcvOE
This earlier post by MR2 goes over the MANY inconsistencies
http://professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=482000&postcount=44
Everyone grab your tinfoils hats...the guys that blew up the W.T.C. planned Sandy Hook!
I don't about that....but the one 'Tinfoil' idea floating about that I did find quite interesting was the possibility of 'Crisis Actors' being used to stage interviews with the media. The evidence/pictures the Tinfoilers provide do bare a striking resemblance to people the media interviewed and these same people apparently all belong to people in a Denver based acting group named VisionBox Crisis Actors.
I am not convinced the theory is true, but considering all the media inconsistencies that have been reported in their hast to demonize firearms, considering the gun control fanatics, considering the never let a crisis go to waste mentality, considering that most of us don't know anyone from Sandy Hook and most of take what we see for face value, and the fact that for fear of ridicule and retribution most would be afraid to even consider such a idea..........as the Myth Busters say.........it's plausible.
I know, I know this is America and that kind of stuff doesn't happen here.
ZonieDiver
01-15-2013, 08:25
Please don't feed the bears!:D
Please don't feed the bears!:D.
How about the enabled and entitled?
ZonieDiver
01-15-2013, 09:40
.
How about the enabled and entitled?
Some bears are more equal than others. Besides, that bear is demonstrating very good tables manners (which will probably end when the "pic-a-nic basket" appears), and such good manners MUST be rewarded.:D
That coroner interview reminds me of Carter Pike, the conspiracy theory spouting coroner on the "Picket Fences" TV show.
Now if the Newtown DA only sounded like Douglas Wambaugh... :D
Richard :munchin
Newtown Calls for Armed School Officers
NBC
2/1/2013
George Colli
"The Newtown Board of Education wants more armed police officers in the town's four elementary schools after the shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary."
Snip
http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/Newtown-Votes-for-Armed-School-Officers-189320221.html?dr
Police forensic scientist at Newtown hearing: Assault weapons ban won’t work (http://dailycaller.com/2013/02/04/forensic-scientist-at-newtown-hearing-slams-assault-weapons-ban/)
The forensic scientist for the Bridgeport, Conn. Police Department sharply criticized proposed assault weapon and high-capacity magazine bans and pointed out the small number of crimes committed by high-capacity weapons in public hearing testimony last week.
Marshall K. Robinson, who said his area of expertise is “firearm and tool mark identification,” testified at the Gun Violence Prevention Working Group, which was convened at the Connecticut State Capitol in response to the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting. There he opposed statements from many of the other 1,300 speakers in attendance advocating for banning high-capacity AR-15 and AK-47 firearms.
Robinson pointed out that less than two percent of the firearms he has examined since 1996 that have been linked to violent crime in Bridgeport have been the caliber of AR-15 or AK-47 weapons.
“Since November 1996, I have examined approximately 2,370 firearms. Of that number 36 of them were either .223/5.56 mm or 7.62×39 mm,” Robinson said. “The percentage of those guns was about [1.5 percent].”
“I did further research on homicides and assaults in the years 2006 to 2012 inclusive. Of the 217 such cases, there were 912 bullets and 466 cartridge cases recovered. One assault involved .223 caliber and none involved 7.63×39 mm caliber. The largest number cartridge cases recovered in one case was 37 and that involved two guns. The investigations that involved the recovery of eleven or more cartridge cases was 22. Of the 22 cases, 21 involved 2 or more guns,” Robinson added.
snip
ETA: Funny how so much legislation targets a weapon used in so little of the crimes committed. :rolleyes:
steel_eel
02-04-2013, 18:12
Holy $#!t.
Sandy Hook dad testifies before CT Capitol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wAYLr6u2FyY
I like how he pounded the table at the end of his statement.:lifter
Stiletto11
02-04-2013, 18:14
The bottom line is that we can bring up all rationale to rebut the attack on the 2nd Amendment but this is a political argument that is not based in reason. Law is never based in reason as Robert Bork proclaimed in his book The Tempting of America.
Holy $#!t.
Sandy Hook dad testifies before CT Capitol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wAYLr6u2FyY
I like how he pounded the table at the end of his statement.:lifter
Here Here !
He gets it !!
ABC, CBS, NBC Admit No Assault Rifle Used at Sandy Hook (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HK8Z5K5M2Dw)
I think the weather forecasters are more accurate than the so-called journalists anymore.
Stiletto11
02-04-2013, 19:55
They were hopping all over each other in an effort to "out scoop" the competition without any regard to facts, truth and responsible journalism. I live in Commiecticut and I saw the AR being pulled from the car live and so did my neighbor. If the feed was delayed then that's another story.
Hmmmm gun control and gun grabbing isn't getting the overwhelming support they thought it would...need an idea to get the One back on TV and talking about evil guns...what can they do???
Slain Newtown educators to get Presidential medals
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local/northern_suburbs&id=8982341
Presidential medals will be awarded posthumously to the six people who died protecting children at Sandy Hook Elementary School, officials said Tuesday.
The award honors Americans who have performed "exemplary deeds of service" for their country or fellow citizens. It is generally recognized as the government's second-highest civilian award.
Meanwhile back at Fort Hood
(1) called the Ft Hood terror attack "workplace violence" and refuses to call it by the correct name of jihadist terrorism
(2) denied the dead and victims any access to combat pay or combat recognition
(3) impeded for years the release of government documents needed for this case, and has obstructed justice
(4) shown no further interest in Ft Hood since he got his photo ops here
(5) has cut all TDY money and issued official policy letters instructing Soldiers and Army civilians who are traveling on business to mooch off their relatives or hang out overnight in bus shelters or city parks (this is NOT a joke)
(6) Just cut $18 million from Soldier, TBI, and and PTSD medical center care at Ft. Hood
My attempt at an unbiased objective opinion: there are two decent videos of the Gun in the trunk.
This is 100% a Saiga 12 Semi Auto. I also believe with about 90% certainty the other Black item on the trunk of the car floor is the Magazine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGALsV6BzFI
Now this video below is catching a lot of tinfoil as well. However, it is not as high resolution. This allows a lot of room for speculation, but not definitive answers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=R_ubdjO_dRY
Starting at 2:30 or so, the examiners empty the trunk. This footage seems to be right after the first video. First removed from the trunk is the Saiga, then at 2:32 something else is removed. I am assuming he took the magazine. It’s too dark to really tell positively, but if it was an AR15 I think it would be more obvious in how it was removed from the trunk, as well as its silhouette.
This would also reflect my opinion:
http://www.ct.gov/despp/cwp/view.asp?Q=517284
"Seized from suspect’s car in parking lot:
#4. Izhmash Canta-12 12 gauge Shotgun (seized from car in parking lot)"
Now unless there is other footage or an official report of the AR15 clearly being removed from the car, I think its case closed on the whole conspiracy thing.
The comments and conspiracy videos are really discouraging honestly. I have not known, nor been aware of anyone whom has been able to make political progress in the 2nd amendment fight by using the argument of the government lying to us, or coming after us for any reason. Is everything we do in the government 100% honest? No, that’s why its politics. Do I believe we have gotten to the point of actually killing kids for political gain, or even pretending to? I sure hope we are not that lost.
As every member of this forum can likely agree, Evil people exist in the world. Bad people exist, and they do bad things. It’s hard for some people to accept that things so evil can happen naturally, but they do. That’s why we have Morals, Hope, faith, religion, laws, law enforcement and military. Everything exists to protect ourselves from ourselves.
Hmmmm gun control and gun grabbing isn't getting the overwhelming support they thought it would...need an idea to get the One back on TV and talking about evil guns...what can they do???
Slain Newtown educators to get Presidential medals
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local/northern_suburbs&id=8982341
Presidential medals will be awarded posthumously to the six people who died protecting children at Sandy Hook Elementary School, officials said Tuesday.
The award honors Americans who have performed "exemplary deeds of service" for their country or fellow citizens. It is generally recognized as the government's second-highest civilian award.
Meanwhile back at Fort Hood
(1) called the Ft Hood terror attack "workplace violence" and refuses to call it by the correct name of jihadist terrorism
(2) denied the dead and victims any access to combat pay or combat recognition
(3) impeded for years the release of government documents needed for this case, and has obstructed justice
(4) shown no further interest in Ft Hood since he got his photo ops here
(5) has cut all TDY money and issued official policy letters instructing Soldiers and Army civilians who are traveling on business to mooch off their relatives or hang out overnight in bus shelters or city parks (this is NOT a joke)(
6) Just cut $18 million from Soldier, TBI, and and PTSD medical center care at Ft. Hood
Just got the "memo". It was complete and total sarcasm. I agree with your other points.
deleted, moved to a seperate thread
The Reaper
02-07-2013, 17:54
Do you think that the LEOs, media, and investigators don't have a big bag of brass, recovered from the floor of the crime scene, that clearly identifies the weapon(s) used by the perp to commit this heinous crime?
Why would you (the LEOs, Coroner, media, etc.) not make that info public?
Someone needs to be FOIAing the Newtown LEOs, ASAP.
TR
Stiletto11
02-07-2013, 19:51
Do you think that the LEOs, media, and investigators don't have a big bag of brass, recovered from the floor of the crime scene, that clearly identifies the weapon(s) used by the perp to commit this heinous crime?
Why would you (the LEOs, Coroner, media, etc.) not make that info public?
Someone needs to be FOIAing the Newtown LEOs, ASAP.
TR
The will claim it is still under investigation and the FOIA will be refused. The autopsy reports will most likely fall under the same premise.
School Shootings: Another Approach
The CT State Police have already made this information public:
STATE POLICE IDENTIFY WEAPONS USED IN SANDY HOOK INVESTIGATION;
INVESTIGATION CONTINUES
In previous press conferences, the Connecticut State Police clearly identified all of the weapons seized from the crime scene at Sandy Hook Elementary School.
To eliminate any confusion or misinformation, we will again describe and identify the weapons seized at the school crime scene.
Seized inside the school:
#1. Bushmaster .223 caliber-- model XM15-E2S rifle with high capacity 30 round magazine
#2. Glock 10 mm handgun
#3. Sig-Sauer P226 9mm handgun
Seized from suspect’s car in parking lot:
#4. Izhmash Canta-12 12 gauge Shotgun (seized from car in parking lot)
This case remains under investigation.
Lt. J. Paul Vance
Source:
http://www.ct.gov/despp/cwp/view.asp?Q=517284
The CT State Police have already made this information public:
Source:
http://www.ct.gov/despp/cwp/view.asp?Q=517284
Well the Corner reported that no victims were killed with a 223 round. They were killed by the pistols (10/9mm) Only.
The Bushmaster was recorded on video being removed from the trunk of the car when they searched it. HUMmmmmmm....?
I watched the car search on TV and saw it. Wonder why so many conflicting reports.....?
It honestly does not matter. The bottom line is a kid was a nut and killed his mother and attacked a school. The system worked as he was denied a gun before so he turned to crime to get them. Bottom line we have to go after the crooks not law abiding citizens...... And quit trying to make safe zones so they know that it is a soft target. Train and arm and when a shooter pops up they are engaged by people that can protect them selves.
........I watched the car search on TV and saw it. Wonder why so many conflicting reports.....?........
We've beaten this horse to death in many threads and post here.
The AR was not the weapon recovered from the car. A close look at the video shows it to be the shotgun.
The press reports from the next couple of days were wrong.
Snaquebite
03-28-2013, 09:09
Pete you're right. The shotgun was in the glove compartment. They also found two 35 round 12 guage shotgun mags. :rolleyes:
A loaded 12-gauge shotgun was found in the glove compartment of the Honda Civic Lanza drove to the school with two magazines containing 70 rounds of Winchester 12-gauge shotgun rounds.
http://www.lawofficer.com/article/news/warrants-reveal-multiple-weapo
Streck-Fu
03-28-2013, 09:31
......and a gun safe in Lanza's bedroom.
WTF?!
I guess that seals the deal on mom's negligence...IMO....
WTF?!
I guess that seals the deal on mom's negligence...IMO....
In the article Snaquebite posted they are certainly leading the reader to this, but they actually wrote they found a safe in the house, not specifically in his bedroom.
Documents indicate authorities found a gun safe with shotgun shells in the house and numerous boxes of bullets.
The article seems to not have all of the facts straight.
Also the shotgun was in the trunk not the glove box. It'd have to be a pretty big glove box to fit a 12 gauge and seventy shotgun shells.
Furthermore, it says they found 3-30 round mags but 154 rounds were fired from the bushmaster. So did he stop and reload a couple mags?
2 shotgun mags with 70 rounds of 12 guage in them? 35 round drums?
I've never seen one but I guess its possible.
Streck-Fu
03-28-2013, 10:44
That article is such a hodgepodge of claims, it is hard to determine what is true.
Leozinho
07-19-2019, 15:54
I want to know when this site (I’ve been a member since 2004) became a welcoming place for civilian and non-QP conspiracy theorists, especially those deluded enough to think Sandy Hook didn’t happen?
Last hard class
07-20-2019, 09:53
I want to know when this site (I’ve been a member since 2004) became a welcoming place for civilian and non-QP conspiracy theorists, especially those deluded enough to think Sandy Hook didn’t happen?
You meant to put that in pink correct? This is my conspiracy theory go to website of record. Many of our members more than 2 deviations off have actually been less vocal as of late. Might be happier with the current political state. More likely though, they just fell off the end of the earth.
LHC
I want to know when this site (I’ve been a member since 2004) became a welcoming place for civilian and non-QP conspiracy theorists, especially those deluded enough to think Sandy Hook didn’t happen?
My apologies. Post deleted.
Ret10Echo
11-12-2019, 13:44
Well the Corner reported that no victims were killed with a 223 round. They were killed by the pistols (10/9mm) Only.
The Bushmaster was recorded on video being removed from the trunk of the car when they searched it. HUMmmmmmm....?
Looks like that won't save Remington
The Supreme Court has denied Remington Arms Co.'s bid to block a lawsuit filed by families of victims of the Sandy Hook school massacre. The families say Remington should be held liable, as the maker and promoter of the AR-15-style rifle used in the 2012 killings.
Link here (https://www.npr.org/2019/11/12/778487920/supreme-court-allows-sandy-hook-families-case-against-remington-to-proceed)
tom kelly
11-12-2019, 15:16
The Anti-2nd Amendment Justices, How about any product used in conjunction with murder, or killing of an another person? Motor Vehicles, Alcohol, Small Tools, hammer, screwdriver, wrench, rope, wire, flammable liquid...????? THE LAWYER SEWAR INDUSTRY that gets 40% of the "SETTLEMENT". JOB SECURITY FOR LAW SCHOOL GRAD's THE ABSENCE OF MALICE SHOULD HAVE BEEN ARGUED BUT THAN THE LIBERAL JURY WOULD HAVE DISMISSED THAT.
The Anti-2nd Amendment Justices, How about any product used in conjunction with murder, or killing of an another person? Motor Vehicles, Alcohol, Small Tools, hammer, screwdriver, wrench, rope, wire, flammable liquid...????? THE LAWYER SEWAR INDUSTRY that gets 40% of the "SETTLEMENT". JOB SECURITY FOR LAW SCHOOL GRAD's THE ABSENCE OF MALICE SHOULD HAVE BEEN ARGUED BUT THAN THE LIBERAL JURY WOULD HAVE DISMISSED THAT.
I suspect Tom notes the problem
The defense did not hit the correct quote for their arguments. SCOTUS has in the past punished the defense lawyers by using very narrow and selective wordage in decent postings. They want the case to come back but can't tell the lawyers how..
They only interpret the law as the case is presented. I think something was way wrong in the presentation. :munchin
Ret10Echo
11-12-2019, 16:55
And on the tail of this
(Reuters) - Whitebox Advisors LLC, a credit-focused hedge fund, has been quietly capitalizing on Wall Street’s ambivalence toward gun manufacturers by replacing some banks as a lender to Remington Outdoor Company
Here (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-remington-whitebox-exclusive/exclusive-hedge-fund-whitebox-places-big-bet-on-gunmaker-remington-idUSKBN1XL17B)
I guess that Remington shouldn't have advertised that, "If you are planning on shooting up a school with a 9mm handgun, be sure to carry one of our AR-15 rifles in the trunk of your car."
Not in pink because that's, apparently, the argument.
I guess that Remington shouldn't have advertised that, "If you are planning on shooting up a school with a 9mm handgun, be sure to carry one of our AR-15 rifles in the trunk of your car."
Not in pink because that's, apparently, the argument.
I think there is something wrong with the SCOTUS filing.
If the AR was in the trunk the filing should have been tossed
If the AR was a Bushmaster XM15-E2S, Remington did not have a weapon on the property?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
A large quantity of unused ammunition was recovered inside the school along with three semi-automatic firearms found with Lanza: a .223-caliber Bushmaster XM15-E2S rifle, a 10mm Glock 20SF handgun, and a 9mm SIG Sauer P226 handgun.[5] Outside the school, an Izhmash Saiga-12 shotgun was found in the car Lanza had driven.[5][7]
On March 28, 2013, court documents released from the investigation showed that the school shooting had occurred in the space of less than five minutes with 156 shots fired. This comprised 154 shots from the rifle and two shots from the 10mm pistol. Lanza fired one shot from the Glock in the hallway and killed himself with another shot from the pistol to the head.[102][103]
Could Connecticut have a law that says you can only file claims against a corporation with headquarters within the state?
If so, can SCOTUS rule on the legality of such state laws?
Would the 2L's please stand?
The Supreme Court does not disclose why it declines to hear a case. The original lawsuit was still in discovery phase. Perhaps, when there is a decision in the lower court - on the merits - perhaps SCOTUS may take up the case.
Excerpt from the CT Supreme Court opinion.
“Just before 9:30 a.m., Lanza shot his way into the locked school using the XM15-E2S. He immediately shot and killed Mary Joy Sherlach as well as the school’s principal. He subsequently shot and wounded two staff members.
Lanza next entered Classroom 8, where he used the rifle to kill two adults and fifteen first grade children, including five of the plaintiffs. Finally, he entered Class- room 10, where he used the rifle to kill two adults and five first grade children, including three of the plaintiffs. Nine children from Classroom 10 were able to escape when Lanza paused to reload with another magazine.
In total, the attack lasted less than four and one-half minutes, during which Lanza fired at least 154 rounds from the XM15-E2S, killing twenty-six and wounding two others.16”
“16 Although the plaintiffs do not specifically allege it, an investigation revealed that Lanza killed his mother in their home prior to the massacre and that the massacre ended when he took his own life in the school. Both of those killings apparently were carried out with other firearms and are not at issue in this case. See Division of Criminal Justice, State of Connecti- cut, Report of the State’s Attorney for the Judicial District of Danbury on the Shootings at Sandy Hook Elementary School and 36 Yogananda Street, Newtown, Connecticut on December 14, 2012 (November 25, 2013) p. 2.”
https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/19/19-168/99987/20190516113702773_Exhibit-1.pdf
More info at the link below than most would want to know about this case:
https://www.supremecourt.gov/docket/docketfiles/html/public/19-168.html
Badger52
11-14-2019, 06:57
In my view too many justices are inclined to allow cases to proceed simply because they pose an interesting thought exercise, with little to no consideration as to whether the suit brought is right or wrong in the first place. (Yes, I'm projecting here; and I don't care.)
This should have never been allowed to get past the first courtroom.
The visceral closure of societal justice has been denied because Lanza off'd himself.
This is a wrong being followed by another wrong and the black-robed demigods who sit above the clouds should be thoroughly ashamed.
Airbornelawyer
11-14-2019, 10:40
As I understand it, the case was filed in Connecticut's state courts because the plaintiffs included the Connecticut gun shop where the rifle was bought, even though the real target of the suit was the manufacturer. Basically, federal courts only have jurisdiction if the case is a matter of federal law (subject matter jurisdiction) or if the parties are in different states or countries (diversity jurisdiction). Plaintiffs who do not want to be in Federal court will often include a party in the state to avoid diversity jurisdiction. Defendants who do not want to be in Federal court will also sometimes try to include a local party to destroy diversity, but defendants, especially corporations, generally prefer Federal courts because they think they will be treated more fairly there.
Plaintiffs often prefer state courts for a number of reasons. First, state court juries drawn from the local population are often seen as more favorable to plaintiffs. Second, state court judges are often elected or appointed to limited terms by the state government, and are thus more subject to political and public relations pressure than Federal judges with lifetime appointments. Connecticut judges are nominated to eight-year terms by the Governor and appointed by the General Assembly.
I assume the U.S. Supreme Court refused to hear the case on ripeness grounds, since it was just returned to the trial court by the Connecticut Supreme Court.
As I understand it, the case was filed in Connecticut's state courts because the plaintiffs included the Connecticut gun shop where the rifle was bought, even though the real target of the suit was the manufacturer.
Basically, federal courts only have jurisdiction if the case is a matter of federal law (subject matter jurisdiction) or if the parties are in different states or countries (diversity jurisdiction).
Plaintiffs who do not want to be in Federal court will often include a party in the state to avoid diversity jurisdiction. Defendants who do not want to be in Federal court will also sometimes try to include a local party to destroy diversity, but defendants, especially corporations, generally prefer Federal courts because they think they will be treated more fairly there.
Plaintiffs often prefer state courts for a number of reasons. First, state court juries drawn from the local population are often seen as more favorable to plaintiffs. Second, state court judges are often elected or appointed to limited terms by the state government, and are thus more subject to political and public relations pressure than Federal judges with lifetime appointments. Connecticut judges are nominated to eight-year terms by the Governor and appointed by the General Assembly.
I assume the U.S. Supreme Court refused to hear the case on ripeness grounds since it was just returned to the trial court by the Connecticut Supreme Court.
What he said.
My 0-LE standing had a sneaky suspicion that the claimants used Remington to avoid Federal intervention.
Thank you..
One man’s simple summary.
Remington v. Soto – Why Everyone Should Keep Calm and Carry On
BY TTAG CONTRIBUTOR |NOV 14, 2019 |
ED: LKB is an experienced litigator and a member of the US Supreme Court bar. He’ll be in the courtroom next month for the arguments in the New York State Rifle & Pistol Association v. City of New York case, reporting for TTAG.]
By LKB
There has been much hysteria in the gun community over the Supreme Court’s refusal to hear the case of Remington Arms v. Soto. That’s the Connecticut case brought by parents and one survivor of the Sandy Hook shooting.
Gun opponents (and most of the media) are crowing that this means firearms companies can now be sued into oblivion, and some gun rights advocates are similarly crying that the sky is falling and the Supreme Court has abandoned us. Neither of these views are accurate.
To understand, let’s dispel some myths.
First, contrary to some of what many TTAG readers are saying in the comments, the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA) does NOT provide blanket immunity to firearms manufacturers. For example, if the gun has a defective trigger, you can still bring a products liability claim against the manufacturer if that particular manufacturing or design defect directly caused you injury. Or if a firearms manufacturer is engaged in price fixing or bid rigging, it is still subject to the normal civil or criminal liability for such conduct.
What PLCAA does say is that you can’t sue firearms manufacturers for liability arising from the criminal or unlawful misuse of a firearm by third parties. But PLCAA does contain several exceptions to this — one of which is the following:
an action in which a manufacturer or seller of a qualified product knowingly violated a State or Federal statute applicable to the sale or marketing of the product, and the violation was a proximate cause of the harm for which relief is sought.
15 USC 7903(5)(A)(iii).
We’ll come back to that in a minute.
Second, the Connecticut Supreme Court did not find that Remington was liable, nor did they reflexively find for the plaintiffs. In fact, it affirmed the dismissal of all but one of the plaintiffs’ claims — a claim that Bushmaster’s advertising violated a Connecticut state law that prohibits false advertising.
With respect to that claim, the Court found that, taking the arguments presented in plaintiffs’ pleadings as true (which is the standard for a motion to dismiss), it was possible that plaintiffs could establish at trial that (1) Bushmaster violated a state law applicable to the marketing of the product, (2) that said violation proximately caused plaintiffs’ injuries, and therefore (3) the above mentioned exception to the PLCAA immunity applies. It’s a very narrow decision that squeaked by the barest of margins (4-3).
Third, while the US Supreme Court’s refusal to hear the case immediately is disappointing, that was hardly unexpected or unusual. The harsh reality is that the Supreme Court takes up very, very few cases — even when there are clear circuit splits or obvious disregard for settled law. It’s frustrating and maddening, but it’s been the reality of Supreme Court practice for generations.
More importantly, procedurally, the case is at the motion to dismiss stage — the case has not been tried on the merits, and the Supreme Court rarely if ever takes any cases that are at this stage.
Compounding matters, the Connecticut Supreme Court majority (likely to further reduce the possibility of immediate Supreme Court review) couched their decision in terms of state law — and the US Supreme Court almost never weighs in on such state issues.
So, what does this mean going forward?
For the plaintiffs in Remington Arms v. Soto, it means that they will now have to prove, with admissible evidence, that (1) Bushmaster in fact violated the Connecticut false marketing statute, (2) that Bushmaster knowingly violated it, and (3) that such violations proximately caused plaintiffs’ injuries.
While I seriously doubt plaintiffs will be able to prove any of these, the third element appears virtually impossible to prove (as I believe the dissent in the Connecticut Supreme Court recognized).
As I see it, the plaintiffs will have to show — with admissible evidence — that Adam Lanza actually saw the advertising in question, and that the false nature of the advertising (i.e., the state law violation) is what caused him to commit mass murder and thus caused plaintiffs’ injuries.
That is, to say the least, a very heavy lift that I doubt plaintiffs will be able to satisfy or carry the burden of proving that at trial.
As for the U.S. Supreme Court . . . because the pro-2A community is highly invested in gun-related lawsuits, it’s easy to get intellectually lazy and see anti-2A bogeyman and stratagems behind everything that happens. Such attitudes are not dissimilar to those of college social justice warrior types who stridently and confidently proclaim that everything they see is the result of racism/sexism/the patriarchy/climate change/etc.
Calm down and look dispassionately at the facts and realities of Supreme Court practice and procedures, rather than simply assuming that the fix is in.
Would I have liked to have seen the Supreme Court grant cert in this case? Certainly.
Was that even remotely likely to happen given the procedural posture of this case? No way.
Does the Court’s decision not to grant cert on an unripe case that turned on a state law issue foreshadow anything regarding the Court’s attitudes toward Second Amendment cases? No.
Now, if Roberts wimps out in New York State Rifle & Pistol Association case, I’ll join everyone in decrying the Supreme Court’s lack of fortitude. But the fact that the Court didn’t take up a case that anybody with a modicum of legal experience would tell you was a longshot cert petition at best signifies nothing.
In the mean time, everyone would do well to take a deep breath and calm down. There’s no indication at all that the sky is falling. Yet.
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/remington-v-soto-why-everyone-should-keep-calm-and-carry-on/
Badger52
11-18-2019, 10:25
Calm down and look dispassionately at the facts and realities of Supreme Court practice and procedures, rather than simply assuming that the fix is in. I don't assume the 'fix' is in. I simply don't trust many of the crop of black robes these days. They have shown they have more stretch than Gumby.
I don't assume the 'fix' is in. I simply don't trust many of the crop of black robes these days. They have shown they have more stretch than Gumby.
Roger that. The author’s comment and the article itself was not directed at you individually. Article does, however, do a fair job of simply explaining the legal gymnastics required for a procedural rather than a substantive determination and next steps.
Arguably one of the most regulated industries in the country is the firearm’s industry. The Lanza kid is to blame for those deaths and his poor dead mother may ultimately be found to have some ownership in that terrible shooting and she’s dead, too.
Adam Lanza reportedly stole the firearm in question and murdered his mother before murdering other innocents. This case is at a point in CT where all the facts, discovery, general rules and exceptions should be fleshed out.
Badger52
11-18-2019, 16:38
Roger that. The author’s comment and the article itself was not directed at you individually.No worries, didn't take it that way. We've all seen times when the fix was in; sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. And sometimes it is, until it isn't (ask HRC). And sometimes it isn't, until it is (ask Comey).
I might be just a little cynical. :cool: