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Scimitar
12-12-2012, 01:39
A bit of light reading on what RAND thinks about the future of ARNG SF.

RAND Link (http://www.rand.org/pubs/technical_reports/TR1199.html)

Box
12-12-2012, 04:50
My curiosity lies more in what the customer thinks of the results. In the summary it claims that there are "trust issues" in the ability of ARNGSF to perform.
Since the USASOC is the 'customer' in this study if there is in fact a trust issue, then I wouldn't expect to see the ARNG-SF being deployed into theater very often. It also offers a few things to ponder...

-With the OPTEMPO the way it is, would anyone ever expect an ARNG Group Commander to be entrusted with the CJSTOF job? (It has been done at least once that I am aware of, almost ten years ago, but not since according to my feeble memory)
-How many times (within the last five years) has an ARNG SF Battalion had ownership of a SOTF level command?
-Does anyone expect to see the USASOC/USASFC commanders openly commenting on the level of trust in the ARNG-SF elements like it is suggested in the summary?

Interesting report when it talks about the playbook, trust issues and favoritism.

Badger52
12-12-2012, 08:49
Maybe too far down the road to know (or too far down in the weeds for me to be asking) but am pondering:

With the other discussions about inevitable resource cuts, if the full-version of a DTA-type situation for NG SF companies is too spendy is that something that might get resolved with the advisor going to the unit instead, and the NG SF unit training closer to home? (1-2x TDY$ < ECT travel$ for whole unit going to the AC-aligned location.) Advisor comes to the unit & advises at unit's best/nearest (granted not always same thing) venue, perhaps ISO or ICW other NG or AR exercises that would let them get some experience running the gamut from RSOI to OPFOR or some other specific type of airborne insertion or other problem to solve...? When/if these reports gain any legs do they typically allow some imagination in the implementation?




60,000 acres, great ranges, DZ's, bargains & all kinds of stuff. C'mon up & play. Tabs welcome always.[/shamelessmarketing]

Scimitar
12-12-2012, 12:18
Ignore

2018commo
12-13-2012, 15:47
Random Answers No Direction; someone trying to do a doctoral thesis on at topic everyone already knows.

ccrn
01-01-2013, 13:28
My curiosity lies more in what the customer thinks of the results. In the summary it claims that there are "trust issues" in the ability of ARNGSF to perform.
Since the USASOC is the 'customer' in this study if there is in fact a trust issue, then I wouldn't expect to see the ARNG-SF being deployed into theater very often. It also offers a few things to ponder...

-With the OPTEMPO the way it is, would anyone ever expect an ARNG Group Commander to be entrusted with the CJSTOF job? (It has been done at least once that I am aware of, almost ten years ago, but not since according to my feeble memory)
-How many times (within the last five years) has an ARNG SF Battalion had ownership of a SOTF level command?
-Does anyone expect to see the USASOC/USASFC commanders openly commenting on the level of trust in the ARNG-SF elements like it is suggested in the summary?

Interesting report when it talks about the playbook, trust issues and favoritism.

Could be wrong but I think 3rd Batt had SOTF-E command when we deployed.

Interestingly, one of the ODA I supported conducted more missions outside the wire in two months than their AD counterpart did in nine.

Box
01-01-2013, 14:21
When I was a company OPs NCO we replaced a company of SF NG in the North so I am not sure who the SOTF was, but the meat of the BN was in SOTF-E so it might have been NGSF. I reckon it would have been around the 2006 time frame.

As far as 'who does more missions', the number of missions outside the wire used to impress me before I took over my current duty position. I have seen ODA's post INCREDIBLE numbers when it comes to 'missions outside the wire'; then you see than one ODA does 20-30 'missions' in a month compared to 9 or 10 by another ODA over the same time period. Then you see that the ODA with big numbers is only doing local security patrols within 2km of the 'wire' while the other is out for several days at a time, beyond 10km outside the wire. One is just defending the camp, while the other is out roaming the countryside; add to that the location dynamic, maybe the one 'defending the camp' is surrounded by bad guys, and the other has better freedom of movement. When you are looking at it from a C2 point of view you cant help but notice that every location is different. As I heard a few times this last trip, if you've seen one VSP, you've seen one VSP. They are surrounded by different tribes in different areas with different team 'personalities' being brought to bear against the threat.

Every team in the company worked their collective asses off this year even though some of them looked like they didn't do a lot on paper.
Unfortunately, when it comes time to give out 'trophies' for 1st 2nd and 3rd place, there has to be a "metric" that you use to measure success and trips outside the wire along with how many local cops you have trained seem to be the measuring stick we are using to define success right now.

...just a few rambling thoughts, maybe I am missing a few details.

ccrn
01-14-2013, 17:27
When I was a company OPs NCO we replaced a company of SF NG in the North so I am not sure who the SOTF was, but the meat of the BN was in SOTF-E so it might have been NGSF. I reckon it would have been around the 2006 time frame.

As far as 'who does more missions', the number of missions outside the wire used to impress me before I took over my current duty position. I have seen ODA's post INCREDIBLE numbers when it comes to 'missions outside the wire'; then you see than one ODA does 20-30 'missions' in a month compared to 9 or 10 by another ODA over the same time period. Then you see that the ODA with big numbers is only doing local security patrols within 2km of the 'wire' while the other is out for several days at a time, beyond 10km outside the wire. One is just defending the camp, while the other is out roaming the countryside; add to that the location dynamic, maybe the one 'defending the camp' is surrounded by bad guys, and the other has better freedom of movement. When you are looking at it from a C2 point of view you cant help but notice that every location is different. As I heard a few times this last trip, if you've seen one VSP, you've seen one VSP. They are surrounded by different tribes in different areas with different team 'personalities' being brought to bear against the threat.

Every team in the company worked their collective asses off this year even though some of them looked like they didn't do a lot on paper.
Unfortunately, when it comes time to give out 'trophies' for 1st 2nd and 3rd place, there has to be a "metric" that you use to measure success and trips outside the wire along with how many local cops you have trained seem to be the measuring stick we are using to define success right now.

...just a few rambling thoughts, maybe I am missing a few details.

We were told by our AD counterparts the AO was pacified and there was no enemy in the area.

I was sent out there to survey the AO and was told I would be there 2 weeks and move on. Turned out all one had to do was go more than 5K off the MSR and there was plenty of contact to be had.

Im not sure if their patrol numbers figured into anytnhing like awards. I think we were just surprised one evening when we were conducting the daily meeting and that figure was dropped.

All three ODA I suported did an outstanding job from what little I know. They were aggressive and worked hard. Not trying to undermine the AD guys. I know for a fact there are NG units I wouldnt want to work with. But I think it a diservice to state all SFG units cant be trusted. Maybe one in particular that hasnt depolyed a battalion since 2005-2006 but Im not sure about those stats.

The corporate types were able to justify using a unit for ten years to the order of a seventy percent civ unemployment and divorce rate (higher actually), only to justify not using it now due to trust issues lol.

I think its more about politics and careers at this point....
v/r

hetzer
05-03-2013, 01:13
Could be wrong but I think 3rd Batt had SOTF-E command when we deployed.

Interestingly, one of the ODA I supported conducted more missions outside the wire in two months than their AD counterpart did in nine.


Yes, SOTF-E (and much of the north and south) were under the 3/20th from 08/10 until 04/11. A number of new VSOs were set up during that time, I don't remember the actual numbers now.

18Ddave
05-21-2013, 22:12
Been off the net for a while....

Good find and worthwhile thread. I think this study is on to something. I was thinking of writing a white page paper myself to explore options for further use of SF NG units. In my personal opinion, NG SF simply has a hand up on UW type skill sets because we, in large part, are the 'auxiliary'. Many in our part of the Regiment have a wide variety of civilian experiences and education. These abilities allow for greater understanding of 'civilian life' and how it correlates with the various tasks required to execute a successful UW campaign.

"Being both Citizens and Green Berets, we bring a unique capacity to the SF Regiment; numerous additionally honed skills not normally found in SF. These extensive capabilities reside in the day-to-day experiences inside the civilian sector as public and private servants. Our members work in law enforcement, federal agencies, defensive contracting, medicine, business/management, and social work. Additionally, most of our members have bachelors, masters and even doctorate degrees. This dovetails nicely into the complex SF missions of unconventional warfare, foreign internal defense, and counterterrorism which require the SF Soldier to think, act and execute missions using all his resources. This is particularly important since Green Berets, already the most versatile of all of the military’s SOF, work in environments that not only require cultural sensitivities but political, economic and ideological awareness as well."


And yes, I know I took this from our company website... I wrote it. :p