View Full Version : 8 Principles For Dems Re: Fiscal Cliff
Former Labor Secretary Robert Reich and MoveOn.Org video for Democrats regarding the so-called "Fiscal Cliff".
http://front.moveon.org/dear-democrats-please-stick-to-these-8-principles-from-robert-reich
IMO, Republicans need to take notes and wonder why the Dems are - yet again - outmaneuvering them when it comes to PR over issues like this.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
Because as usual the press is on the side of the D's.
The Republicans could stand in front of the Capital and lay out exactly what they want to do. What would the national news report that evening? Evil Republicans want to starve the poor, kick granny out to the street and close the public schools.
ZonieDiver
12-03-2012, 18:52
How does the media keep the R's from setting up a website and making a video?
I watch ALL the network Sunday shows and I have yet to hear an R call POTUS or any of his wimpy lapdogs (Carney, Geitner, etc) on their continuous statements that 'the Rs don't want to raise taxes on millionaires and billionaires'. I didn't know those making $250,000 to $999,000 had been 'promoted'!
Trapper John
12-03-2012, 19:09
Because as usual the press is on the side of the D's.
The Republicans could stand in front of the Capital and lay out exactly what they want to do. What would the national news report that evening? Evil Republicans want to starve the poor, kick granny out to the street and close the public schools.
I agree!! By #4 I was :mad: I can't help but wonder why is the press so biased on the liberal viewpoint? This is the antithesis of journalism at least as I understood it. What are we doing wrong? What do we need to do to change the dynamic?
The Republican party "as is" just doesn't seem to have a ground truth handle on the problem, let alone a plan. I am a little confused right now, as many others here may also be, as to what the solution is and how to execute.
Really good post as usual, Richard {Salute}
Trapper John
12-03-2012, 19:18
How does the media keep the R's from setting up a website and making a video?
I watch ALL the network Sunday shows and I have yet to hear an R call POTUS or any of his wimpy lapdogs (Carney, Geitner, etc) on their continuous statements that 'the Rs don't want to raise taxes on millionaires and billionaires'. I didn't know those making $250,000 to $999,000 had been 'promoted'!
It just occurred to me when reading your post, Zonie. My complaining in the earlier reply is simply about the lack of leadership - Duh! WE NEED A F'N LEADER WITH SOME F'N BALLS!! Yeah, Yeah I know - How sexist and politically incorrect of me! Before anyone is offended :eek:, I mean that figuratively :p
There, now I feel better :D
The majority of the ol' Republican Party just doesn’t get it and never will, their word is lost, muddied and worthless. When out of power they preach smaller govt’, fiscal constraint and personal liberties. But when they are in power they expand the gov’t as much as the libs, breach individual rights and spend like a drunken sailor on shore leave!! (Well all most, drunken sailors stop spending when they run out of money)
Please don’t misunderstand me, I am no fan of the Dems, they just come right out and tell everyone they plan to spend, spend & spend some more (and tax accordingly to support their habits) while shreading the Constitution in the process.
As long as our Constitution is held hostage by a two party system (where they are all in cahoots) nothing will change, we will all just sway from side to side!!
Peregrino
12-03-2012, 21:31
Every 12-Step Plan starts with a significant emotional event. Obviously America hasn't experienced anything significantly emotional yet. Probably going to be pretty ugly when it finally does happen.
XngZeRubicon
12-03-2012, 22:33
How does the media keep the R's from setting up a website and making a video?
I watch ALL the network Sunday shows and I have yet to hear an R call POTUS or any of his wimpy lapdogs (Carney, Geitner, etc) on their continuous statements that 'the Rs don't want to raise taxes on millionaires and billionaires'. I didn't know those making $250,000 to $999,000 had been 'promoted'!
I agree!! By #4 I was :mad: I can't help but wonder why is the press so biased on the liberal viewpoint? This is the antithesis of journalism at least as I understood it. What are we doing wrong? What do we need to do to change the dynamic?
The Republican party "as is" just doesn't seem to have a ground truth handle on the problem, let alone a plan. I am a little confused right now, as many others here may also be, as to what the solution is and how to execute.
Really good post as usual, Richard {Salute}
I attempted to explain the answer in my "How do you raise taxes?" thread. An overwhelming majority of people coming out of our Ivy League Schools have been indoctrinated in Keynsian economics. Some know it, and some don't. But these are the people who then go out and manage, oversee, and communcate to the rest of the population through their Keynsian lenses.
Also there are two things in particular that make it hard for Republicans to outsell Democrats. One is because the REAL way to produce economic growth is COUNTERintuitive. If you understand little about the businessworld, it's intuitive to think RAISING taxes reduces the debt. Cutting taxes is counterintutive.
Second is that one party is doing the heavy lifting by offering to take candy away. The other is offering to give more candy.
Oh, one party is masterful at obfuscation and will make people think up is down and black is white and they are doing the heavy lifting, but in reality, it's not the case.
Badger52
12-04-2012, 07:49
Because as usual the press is on the side of the D's.
The Republicans could stand in front of the Capital and lay out exactly what they want to do. What would the national news report that evening? Evil Republicans want to starve the poor, kick granny out to the street and close the public schools.Ding.
Here are those Evil Republicans from yesterday (http://www.speaker.gov/sites/speaker.house.gov/files/documents/letter_to_wh_121203.pdf).
Work browser is allergic to NBC websites but looks like they covered the letter too. (http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/03/15649000-gop-offers-own-proposal-to-avert-fiscal-cliff?lite)
There also were yesterday some opinion pieces (which I can't reach from the work desk) basically saying, "ok, GOP, back off, let 'em own it & when America begins to really feel the pain the Entitled Ones may feel differently."
As Peregrino indicates, that "moment of clarity" hasn't happened yet. Having seen that in some individuals (not a whole sub-section of a populace), it ain't pretty to watch - but is necessary.
ETA: The video duped #2 & 4, which is within their goal of continuing to reinforce class warfare.
..........Work browser is allergic to NBC websites but looks like they covered the letter too. (http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/03/15649000-gop-offers-own-proposal-to-avert-fiscal-cliff?lite)......
A few comments in the "fair & balanced" MSM news source......
".......Still, the GOP proposal on Monday appears to move no further toward compromise on Obama’s central demand that tax rates be allowed to increase on the wealthiest Americans. While Republicans have agreed in principle that richer Americans can shoulder a greater share of the tax burden, they insist this must be achieved through ending loopholes and deductions, rather than raising rates.........."
"........It’s unclear, though, whether the Republican plan would move toward ending the stalemate around the fiscal cliff negotiations, with less than a month remaining until the automatic tax hikes and spending cuts are scheduled to snap into place on Jan. 1............."
".......The new GOP plan reflects the posturing that has come to characterize these negotiations, separated just a month from an election which awarded Obama a second term and which kept Republicans in control of the House and Democrats in control of the Senate.........."
Hey MSM D-rats - do you see anything unclear in the Presidents plan. Any posturing? Not moving forward?
1stindoor
12-05-2012, 08:17
I attempted to explain the answer in my "How do you raise taxes?" thread.
Also there are two things in particular that make it hard for Republicans to outsell Democrats. One is because the REAL way to produce economic growth is COUNTERintuitive. If you understand little about the businessworld, it's intuitive to think RAISING taxes reduces the debt. Cutting taxes is counterintutive.
You know, I've enjoyed reading your posts, even when I don't agree with your premise...much like Sig...even though his posts require additional reading with his <link> <link> <link> and reminders of what you said last year <here> <here> and <here>....but seriously you think the businessworld thinks raising taxes reduces the debt?
Badger52
12-05-2012, 09:54
You know, I've enjoyed reading your posts, even when I don't agree with your premise...much like Sig...even though his posts require additional reading with his <link> <link> <link> and reminders of what you said last year <here> <here> and <here>....but seriously you think the businessworld thinks raising taxes reduces the debt?First, that was a fun (in a deservedly respectful way) set dressing for a 'Sigabapost'. Nice.
:D
I could be wrong but the way I was reading XZR's comment there are some missing "qualifiers" in the way it's written. Not putting words in XZR's mouth, but I read it as:
If you understand little about the businessworld (like most of the electorate and too many politicians), it's intuitive to think RAISING taxes reduces the debt (if you're a large part of the electorate or one of those ignorant politicians). Cutting taxes is counterintutive (to that group mentioned, who simply think more tax money should mean a paid down debt).
(I've seen people in an aircraft in a shuddering stall find it counter-intuitive to push the nose over even though that's what's needed.)
XZR fire away if I missed the point.
XngZeRubicon
12-05-2012, 10:25
You know, I've enjoyed reading your posts, even when I don't agree with your premise...much like Sig...even though his posts require additional reading with his <link> <link> <link> and reminders of what you said last year <here> <here> and <here>....but seriously you think the businessworld thinks raising taxes reduces the debt?
Very good question. Let me get back to you. Unfortunately, we use a lot of double negatives in this discipline.
The quick answer is that business people will tell you the more you tax and regulate them, the more that bites into their productivity.
As for taxing policy, my outlook is a little more complicated....if we raise the rax RATES, this will contract the economy. I am for other forms of "revenue" like closing loopholes and cappng deductions, even though those have a little bit of a contractionary impact as well. I've come to the conclusion that even though a flat tax is regressive - which is why I resisted it up to about 2 years ago - I now believe this thing about so many people not having skin in the game is a contributor to our current disastrous situation. The election put the last nail in the coffin for me on that one. I'll get back though.
ZonieDiver
12-05-2012, 10:40
I attempted to explain the answer in my "How do you raise taxes?" thread. An overwhelming majority of people coming out of our Ivy League Schools have been indoctrinated in Keynsian economics. Some know it, and some don't. But these are the people who then go out and manage, oversee, and communcate to the rest of the population through their Keynsian lenses.
Also there are two things in particular that make it hard for Republicans to outsell Democrats. One is because the REAL way to produce economic growth is COUNTERintuitive. If you understand little about the businessworld, it's intuitive to think RAISING taxes reduces the debt. Cutting taxes is counterintutive.
Second is that one party is doing the heavy lifting by offering to take candy away. The other is offering to give more candy.
Oh, one party is masterful at obfuscation and will make people think up is down and black is white and they are doing the heavy lifting, but in reality, it's not the case.
Yes, I know. Economics is difficult and the American people are dense. :D
I don't hold either of those beliefs (as to basic economic principles, at least).
My point is that there are many very simple answers to the policies proposed by the Ds and I have yet to hear one R make those simple points in the MSM, which many of them have been all over of late.
How 'counter-intuitive' is it for people to understand that a families making $300,000 a year are not 'millionaires and billionaires'?
How 'counter-intuitive' is it for people to understand that a families making $300,000 a year are not 'millionaires and billionaires'?
It's not so much that folks don't understand that 300,000 <> 1,000,000, but rather that many folks believe "The Rich" is anyone that makes more than they do. They don't stop to consider that, comparatively, they are "The Rich" in the eyes of those making less than them.
Won't they be in for a treat when "The Rich" find ways to move their money and assets elsewhere, and Uncle Sugar shifts his tax siphon to them, the "new" rich?
1stindoor
12-05-2012, 12:57
First, that was a fun (in a deservedly respectful way) set dressing for a 'Sigabapost'. Nice.
:D
I could be wrong but the way I was reading XZR's comment there are some missing "qualifiers" in the way it's written. Not putting words in XZR's mouth, but I read it as:
....
Thanks for the additional "qualifiers." And, honestly, I do enjoy reading Sigaba's posts. He makes me read a lot more.
Just wait for inflation to kick in - then we'll all be rich!
Trapper John
12-06-2012, 12:21
And since you brought up the "Rich", why is it that it was OK to be rich if you inherited wealth (i.e. JFK), married into wealth (i.e John Kerry), but if you EARNED it (i.e. Mitt Romney) you are demonized?
BTW (XZR) the question is rhetorical :D
Trapper John
12-06-2012, 12:44
I attempted to explain the answer in my "How do you raise taxes?" thread. An overwhelming majority of people coming out of our Ivy League Schools have been indoctrinated in Keynsian economics. Some know it, and some don't. But these are the people who then go out and manage, oversee, and communcate to the rest of the population through their Keynsian lenses.
Also there are two things in particular that make it hard for Republicans to outsell Democrats. One is because the REAL way to produce economic growth is COUNTERintuitive. If you understand little about the businessworld, it's intuitive to think RAISING taxes reduces the debt. Cutting taxes is counterintutive.
Second is that one party is doing the heavy lifting by offering to take candy away. The other is offering to give more candy.
Oh, one party is masterful at obfuscation and will make people think up is down and black is white and they are doing the heavy lifting, but in reality, it's not the case.
My confusion is not about causality, the confusion (frustration) is about formulating a cohesive plan to counter the misinformation and disinformation and how to execute that plan. Perhaps, confusion was not the right word, however. Frustration, is more accurate.
Thank you anyway.
XngZeRubicon
12-06-2012, 19:53
First, that was a fun (in a deservedly respectful way) set dressing for a 'Sigabapost'. Nice.
:D
I could be wrong but the way I was reading XZR's comment there are some missing "qualifiers" in the way it's written. Not putting words in XZR's mouth, but I read it as:
(I've seen people in an aircraft in a shuddering stall find it counter-intuitive to push the nose over even though that's what's needed.)
XZR fire away if I missed the point.
Outstanding job, Badger. You interpreted it perfectly. And your analogy about a stalling aircraft is just perfect as well (I was in CivilAirPatrol as a kid and I had to learn to do the opposite of my instincts so spot on.)
XngZeRubicon
12-06-2012, 19:56
Thanks for the additional "qualifiers." And, honestly, I do enjoy reading Sigaba's posts. He makes me read a lot more.
I hope it makes more sense now, 1stindoor. Another example of the counter-intuitive is Obama's 98% vs. 2% meme. Most people think that sounds uber-reasonable. It is not. I explain why in the TAX thread.
XngZeRubicon
12-06-2012, 19:58
My confusion is not about causality, the confusion (frustration) is about formulating a cohesive plan to counter the misinformation and disinformation and how to execute that plan. Perhaps, confusion was not the right word, however. Frustration, is more accurate.
Thank you anyway.
TJ, this requires a longer answer so let me get back. The answer is a tough one I think. One of the problems is that THEY have control of the message via Academia, Mainstream Media, and Hollywood. How we overcome that is going to be tough I think.
Trapper John
12-06-2012, 20:12
TJ, this requires a longer answer so let me get back. The answer is a tough one I think. One of the problems is that THEY have control of the message via Academia, Mainstream Media, and Hollywood. How we overcome that is going to be tough I think.
The only easy day was yesterday:D
GratefulCitizen
12-07-2012, 22:49
Politicians suffer from the illusion of control.
Taxes and regulations don't have the desired effect when control is the objective.
Essentially, control-oriented taxes and regulations are a battle plan against the private sector.
In any battle plan, the enemy gets a vote.
The private sector can be quenched or unleashed.
It cannot be controlled.
Ah - the all powerful and mighty Ozim have spoken. Now, about those effin' ruby red uggs...
Richard :munchin
GratefulCitizen
12-09-2012, 12:36
Just wait for inflation to kick in - then we'll all be rich!
This guy has some interesting insights on inflation.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/1030251-the-fiscal-cliff-stagflation-vs-deflation
Trapper John
12-09-2012, 13:42
This guy has some interesting insights on inflation.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/1030251-the-fiscal-cliff-stagflation-vs-deflation
Great article and IMO fairly summarizes the issues. The biggest problem we are dealing with right now is the "uncertainty factor" that is strangling cash-flow in the economy (not necessarily in the markets - two very different things). I am most concerned about the effects of policy on the economy (not the markets), after all that is what effects all of us. My prediction (as posted earlier) is stagflation and a return to the '70s economy ala Carter. We are just going to have to weather this one and, as I have been saying in other posts, formulate a recovery plan, find an effective and articulate leader with some balls (figuratively of course lest I offend the PC crowd :eek:) and execute the plan with competent management.
The only easy day was yesterday.
GratefulCitizen
12-09-2012, 14:00
Great article and IMO fairly summarizes the issues. The biggest problem we are dealing with right now is the "uncertainty factor" that is strangling cash-flow in the economy (not necessarily in the markets - two very different things). I am most concerned about the effects of policy on the economy (not the markets), after all that is what effects all of us. My prediction (as posted earlier) is stagflation and a return to the '70s economy ala Carter. We are just going to have to weather this one and, as I have been saying in other posts, formulate a recovery plan, find an effective and articulate leader with some balls (figuratively of course lest I offend the PC crowd :eek:) and execute the plan with competent management.
The only easy day was yesterday.
Probably looking at about 10 years of anemic growth.
The resources have already been wasted.
All of this is just a game of musical chairs to see who gets stuck with the bill.