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Dadaleci
11-02-2012, 11:33
Hello Quiet Professionals, and those who respect the QP.

I've been reading on the web a lot of reviews about various watches, primarily the G-Shock's, which I've come to understand are good quality for the price and supported by more than a couple of members of this forum.

I searched these forums for the "G9000" model but could not find any results, so I'd like to ask about the G9000 in particular, as well as some other questions.

Firstly, my price range is any durable watch under $100.

1) The G9000 is the "Mudman" release by G-Shock, which is meant to be "mud resistant", does this claim mean that other G-Shock versions such as the G6900 are not (or less) mud resistant?

2) Has anyone worn the G9000 and are there any particular drawbacks that a deployed soldier might find to it?

I've read that these watches have "Auto Dual EL Backlights with Afterglow", I'm under the impression that this could reveal your position to an enemy, so has this posed a problem for anyone?

I do like the altimeter and barometer of the ProTrek, for example, but I won't worry about getting that right now unless I'm actually going into a situation that I will need it, as of right now I basically just want a rugged watch which will do what I want when I want, and not do unwanted things such as glowing in the dark when I'm trying not to be seen.

I also like that this watch (W94HF) is only $15 http://www.casio-usa.com/products/Watches/Sports/W94HF-3AV/

It has a nylon band, which I prefer, but I've read it is a lot smaller, anyone have this watch that can comment?

Thank you in advance, QP

Red Flag 1
11-02-2012, 16:27
Not sure if this will help or not, http://professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6219&highlight=wrist+watches, . This is an older thread, but it may address some of your questions.

RF 1

Dadaleci
11-02-2012, 18:13
Not sure if this will help or not, http://professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6219&highlight=wrist+watches, . This is an older thread, but it may address some of your questions.

RF 1

Hello Red Flag 1, thank you for your response. I have read that thread thoroughly and was interested in a few of the watches, but they were expensive for my taste. Also I know that some G-Shock's have brighter/dimmer lights than others, as well as other features that are more/less appealing to an active duty soldier.

I know that in the end of the day it is "just a watch", but I rarely buy items for myself and when I do, I am picky and like to buy something well crafted that will last a long time which I will thoroughly appreciate. Everyone has their faults, that's one of my many.

I have actually been shown a few nice watches, such as the Seiko seen in this picture... http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EoIyL5SfL._SL246_SX190_CR0,0,190,246_.jpg

But I imagine having many of the features on a digital watch outweighs the aesthetics of this analog one.

Ret10Echo
11-02-2012, 20:01
But I imagine having many of the features on a digital watch outweighs the aesthetics of this analog one.

But there are things that an analog will do for you that a digital will not.

Personal preference...I prefer a watch with an analog function (available as a G-Shock)

A watch is not just for telling time. (do a search on field expedient direction finding)

blue02hd
11-02-2012, 20:13
I have read that thread thoroughly and was interested in a few of the watches, but they were expensive for my taste. Also I know that some G-Shock's have brighter/dimmer lights than others, as well as other features that are more/less appealing to an active duty soldier.

I know that in the end of the day it is "just a watch", but I rarely buy items for myself and when I do, I am picky and like to buy something well crafted that will last a long time which I will thoroughly appreciate. Everyone has their faults, that's one of my many.

But I imagine having many of the features on a digital watch outweighs the aesthetics of this analog one.

Is it advice you are looking for or validation for the decision you have made?

My advice? A quality field watch will cost you more than $100.00.

Much like the rest of the gear/kit/items we use in the field that we literally trust our lives to, you get what you pay for.

Dadaleci
11-02-2012, 20:14
But there are things that an analog will do for you that a digital will not.

Personal preference...I prefer a watch with an analog function (available as a G-Shock)

A watch is not just for telling time. (do a search on field expedient direction finding)

Hello Ret10Echo, that is true. Do you know of any durable analog watches (withstand exposure to lots of mud and being banged around)? I'm looking at the Traser Type 3 right now, it looks really nice, http://www.medalsofamerica.com/Item--i-W3008

Thanks for the responses so far,

Dadaleci
11-02-2012, 20:17
Is it advice you are looking for or validation for the decision you have made?

My advice? A quality field watch will cost you more than $100.00.

Much like the rest of the gear/kit/items we use in the field, you get what you pay for.

Well I like to discuss these decisions with people who have experienced using a good watch in a dirty environment, and hope to stumble upon a gem.

Indeed I would go for a mudman if I don't find a more appealing option.

I agree entirely with "Get what you pay for".

stfesta
11-02-2012, 20:19
http://www.casio-usa.com/products/Watches/G-Shock/DW5600E-1V/

I've had one of these for about 20 years. I finally replaced it...with another one.

I agree with knowing your survival directions but, there are ways around that.

Just my $0.02
sf

Ret10Echo
11-02-2012, 20:39
Hello Ret10Echo, that is true. Do you know of any durable analog watches (withstand exposure to lots of mud and being banged around)? I'm looking at the Traser Type 3 right now, it looks really nice, http://www.medalsofamerica.com/Item--i-W3008

Thanks for the responses so far,

It comes down to personal preference...what do you need this tool to do? (Yes at the end of the day, it's a tool...perhaps your preference is a tool that looks cool...that's up to you)

What standard of performance? Does there need to be a light...alarm...multiple alarms...analog function with digital capability...band, case...etc. You can buy an expensive watch that does a lot of what you don't need or you can buy a watch that does what you need. Depends on your criteria, and personal taste. If a G-Shock presents an attractive price point for you, I would suggest you look through their site and find one with the functionality you desire.

I've never had a watch that was categorized as "mud resistant" nor have I had one that stated in the documentation that it would survive 25,000+ feet unpressurized..but my G-Shock survived.

Dadaleci
11-02-2012, 21:00
It comes down to personal preference...what do you need this tool to do? (Yes at the end of the day, it's a tool...perhaps your preference is a tool that looks cool...that's up to you)

What standard of performance? Does there need to be a light...alarm...multiple alarms...analog function with digital capability...band, case...etc. You can buy an expensive watch that does a lot of what you don't need or you can buy a watch that does what you need. Depends on your criteria, and personal taste. If a G-Shock presents an attractive price point for you, I would suggest you look through their site and find one with the functionality you desire.

I've never had a watch that was categorized as "mud resistant" nor have I had one that stated in the documentation that it would survive 25,000+ feet unpressurized..but my G-Shock survived.

Good points from everyone, yes I've thought about the functionality and tried to imagine which features I need.

The thing is, I haven't been deployed before or in a spot where I needed to survive, so I can't say for certain. The "better to have and not need than to need and not have" quote comes to mind.

I'm going to get a g-shock since everyone raves about them, but now I'm very keen on trying out an analog, so I'm searching around for a solid accurate one.

I think I'll keep it simple for now, and later I can upgrade to a digital watch such as the ProTreks, with altimeter, compass, etc...

I know I've gone far from my original post, I should've been more vague, at the time though I was pretty set on the G-Shock G9000, which I still prefer over the other G-Shocks at the moment, but now I've seen some nice analog watches which really grabbed my attention.

Red Flag 1
11-02-2012, 21:20
Hello Red Flag 1, thank you for your response. I have read that thread thoroughly and was interested in a few of the watches, but they were expensive for my taste. Also I know that some G-Shock's have brighter/dimmer lights than others, as well as other features that are more/less appealing to an active duty soldier.

I know that in the end of the day it is "just a watch", but I rarely buy items for myself and when I do, I am picky and like to buy something well crafted that will last a long time which I will thoroughly appreciate. Everyone has their faults, that's one of my many.

I have actually been shown a few nice watches, such as the Seiko seen in this picture... http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EoIyL5SfL._SL246_SX190_CR0,0,190,246_.jpg

But I imagine having many of the features on a digital watch outweighs the aesthetics of this analog one.

I am a watch geek, and have watches ranging from Timex to Rolex. The most useful watch that I have is a Citizen Skyhawk. It provides three time zones at a glance plus a slide rule function that I can use to estimate fuel consumption rates while flying. A time piece that I generally use day in and day out is a Casio AMW-320R, http://www.amazon.com/Casio-AMW320R-1EV-Marine-Ana-Digi-Watch/dp/B000GB1R5U,. This timepiece is analog/digital with dual timezones, alarms, timekeeping modes, etc. It is accurate, rugged, and within your price window.

Like most are saying, it is preference, and $ that makes the decision. For me the analog/digital is perfect; analog gives me time at a glance vs reading a digital product.

Be well,

RF 1

Ret10Echo
11-02-2012, 21:29
I generally use day in and day out is a Casio AMW-320R, http://www.amazon.com/Casio-AMW320R-1EV-Marine-Ana-Digi-Watch/dp/B000GB1R5U,. This timepiece is analog/digital with dual timezones, alarms, timekeeping modes, etc

RF.... Same day-to-day timepiece I wear only with yellow dial

MtnGoat
11-02-2012, 21:40
I have never owned a G-Shock G9000, I have owned some G-shocks. I like them. No issues.

What are you looking for in a watch?

I will give a review on a Timex Expedition Shock, I love this watch. Go for military use, not an altimeter watch, but has a compass. Which the compass you can turn off and on as needed. Which helps with battery life. I love this watch night funtion, whihc you turn on so any button you push the light turns on. It takes a beating for sure. I got mine from the PX for around $60.00.

I hate Sunnto now, their first couple of years they were the shit. Not now.

Dadaleci
11-02-2012, 22:06
I am a watch geek, and have watches ranging from Timex to Rolex. The most useful watch that I have is a Citizen Skyhawk. It provides three time zones at a glance plus a slide rule function that I can use to estimate fuel consumption rates while flying. A time piece that I generally use day in and day out is a Casio AMW-320R, http://www.amazon.com/Casio-AMW320R-1EV-Marine-Ana-Digi-Watch/dp/B000GB1R5U,. This timepiece is analog/digital with dual timezones, alarms, timekeeping modes, etc. It is accurate, rugged, and within your price window.

Like most are saying, it is preference, and $ that makes the decision. For me the analog/digital is perfect; analog gives me time at a glance vs reading a digital product.

Be well,

RF 1

That Casio AMW-320R is very nice indeed, and will save me some money.

So here is a new question, as I've read some mixed opinions about lighting... Are the hands bright and need to be covered during a mission? Does it expose your position to the naked eye, or NVGS?

I'd like to know these valuable life saving facts, as well as whether it ticks loudly? Is the steel shiny? The steel looks okay but can be hard to tell from a picture.

Thank you.

MtnGoat, yes that Timex was on my watchlist but I figured I might as well get a G-Shock if I'm going for the rugged route. Because I'm new to watches, as I've never bothered wearing one before, I'm overwhelmed by the options available, so I don't know exactly what I want, I discover new elements which are changing my opinion by the hour. At the moment, after reading an insightful post on a different forum, I'm keen on something light and durable, reliably accurate, which won't draw attention due to its brightness, etc...

Thank you all again

MtnGoat
11-03-2012, 14:04
MtnGoat, yes that Timex was on my watchlist but I figured I might as well get a G-Shock if I'm going for the rugged route. Because I'm new to watches, as I've never bothered wearing one before, I'm overwhelmed by the options available, so I don't know exactly what I want, I discover new elements which are changing my opinion by the hour. At the moment, after reading an insightful post on a different forum, I'm keen on something light and durable, reliably accurate, which won't draw attention due to its brightness, etc...

Thank you all again

If you're look at the enemy seeing you light from your watch, IMO that is not something you'll be looking at or needing to turn on. They are close!! The fire going on is OUT GOING FIRE!!

I like the Expedition and it is very rugged.

I will say this, don't pay for a feature that you will never use or only use a couple of times. I.E.: altimeter watch when you don't climb mountians, if you're looking towards Afghanistan, great but IMO altimeter not need here. If you are looking for tracking movement along a mountainous environment then I would even look towards these ones, they have GPS features too:

(I don't own any of these, but poeple love them, but more for fitness that I know that have them)


New Model Garmin Forerunner 110 $150-$200
Garmin Forerunner 910XT (Heffty price tag tho.. $450-$500!!)
Timex Ironman Run trainier GPS $200-$250

Most guys nowadays wear some kind of GPS on them. Most wear a Garmin Forerunner

What do you want the watch for again?? If you want a Rugged beefy watch, you can find one for $40.00.

Dadaleci
11-03-2012, 16:03
Thank you MtnGoat,

Well I originally planned on getting a durable G-Shock, I have never worn watches before but I know it will be handy knowing the time without a cell-phone (I'm a young buck still) and being able to use it in the field.

I have been writing on a watch forum and summarized that I'm completely new to the watches and because I'm overwhelmed by the choices, and not knowing what I will need, I think I'll get something sturdy and simple that will just tell time (ie a nice looking Analog watch), and can always upgrade to digital ProTrek ABC GPS type watches in the future if need arises.

So I was hoping to wear something through BCT that I can wear 24/7, not need to take it off during muddy low crawls or showers, and not have to worry about it being inaccurate (losing/gaining minutes monthly, etc...)

So I made up this list of watches that I currently am attracted to,

GS2000 130 gbp (approx 190 usd)
Marathon Navigator 190 usd
Traser Type 3 Tritium 117 usd
Seiko SNZG15 104 usd
Casio AMW320R-1EV 50 usd
Seiko SNK809 62 usd
Timex T49875 50 usd

I really like the look of the Marathon Navigator and the Traser... I'm seeing which is the most accurate and most durable (dirt proof, mud proof, water proof), don't want it fogging up getting cloudy under the glass and stop working.

I know I said under 100 but I realized that there are few closer to 200 that may be well worth it. Once again, I wouldn't be taking this watch off, and I rarely buy stuff for myself, when I do it lasts me a long time as I'm responsible with my items.

The Reaper
11-03-2012, 16:29
I don't think the watch makes the man.

A watch is a timepiece. It may also have other functions, like an altimeter, barometer, thermometer, GPS, alarm, etc.

Certainly, a ruggedized version is desirable in our line of work.

And a digital will keep better time, though then you have to either go solar, or worry about the batteries. Changing batteries can compromise the watertight integrity of the watch.

A mechanical watch, even a self-winder or automatic, has to be wound or exercised.

Most kids today will not wear a watch, they use cell phones for the time.

I guess the bottom line here is if you have less than $100, you will have to compromise somewhere. If your budget is unlimited, you can have one that will do nearly everything, or at least make you fashionable while you are wearing it.

Ultimately, a watch is a tool to tell time. The better job it does of that, in all conditions, the better watch you have acquired. You will probably own several in your life time. Looks and style are irrelevant to its intended purpose and are marketing tools the manufacturer uses. Don't over think it.

TR

Dadaleci
11-03-2012, 16:34
I don't think the watch makes the man.

A watch is a timepiece. It may also have other functions, like an altimeter, barometer, thermometer, GPS, alarm, etc.

Certainly, a ruggedized version is desirable in our line of work.

And a digital will keep better time, though then you have to either go solar, or worry about the batteries. Changing batteries can compromise the watertight integrity of the watch.

A mechanical watch, even a self-winder or automatic, has to be wound or exercised.

Most kids today will not wear a watch, they use cell phones for the time.

I guess the bottom line here is if you have less than $100, you will have to compromise somewhere. If your budget is unlimited, you can have one that will do nearly everything, or at least make you fashionable while you are wearing it.

Ultimately, a watch is a tool to tell time. The better job it does of that, in all conditions, the better watch you have acquired. You will probably own several in your life time. Looks and style are irrelevant to its intended purpose. Don't over think it.

TR

Hello Sir,

Thank you for your input, that summarized it quite clearly for me, as I suspected I was over thinking it as I typically do. I also suspected that I'd buy quite a few watches, but I want this first one to be a special watch, I'm sentimental about it, but won't be too disappointed if it gets lost/broken.

With that said, I really do want an accurate quartz analog watch that will tell time precisely.

But I've noticed that a lot of these watches have +/- 15 or greater discrepancy ratings, which to my untrained eye seems steep if I'll pay $200.

I'm willing to pay $200 for a top quality watch (not a Rolex, I understand).

mark46th
11-03-2012, 19:35
Save your money- buy a solid analog, stainless watch. I have had a Rolex Submariner, a Seiko dive watch and an Omega Seamaster. I prefer the Omega.

Red Flag 1
11-03-2012, 20:21
Thank you MtnGoat,

Well I originally planned on getting a durable G-Shock, I have never worn watches before but I know it will be handy knowing the time without a cell-phone (I'm a young buck still) and being able to use it in the field.

I have been writing on a watch forum and summarized that I'm completely new to the watches and because I'm overwhelmed by the choices, and not knowing what I will need, I think I'll get something sturdy and simple that will just tell time (ie a nice looking Analog watch), and can always upgrade to digital ProTrek ABC GPS type watches in the future if need arises.

So I was hoping to wear something through BCT that I can wear 24/7, not need to take it off during muddy low crawls or showers, and not have to worry about it being inaccurate (losing/gaining minutes monthly, etc...)

So I made up this list of watches that I currently am attracted to,

GS2000 130 gbp (approx 190 usd)
Marathon Navigator 190 usd
Traser Type 3 Tritium 117 usd
Seiko SNZG15 104 usd
Casio AMW320R-1EV 50 usd
Seiko SNK809 62 usd
Timex T49875 50 usd

I really like the look of the Marathon Navigator and the Traser... I'm seeing which is the most accurate and most durable (dirt proof, mud proof, water proof), don't want it fogging up getting cloudy under the glass and stop working.

I know I said under 100 but I realized that there are few closer to 200 that may be well worth it. Once again, I wouldn't be taking this watch off, and I rarely buy stuff for myself, when I do it lasts me a long time as I'm responsible with my items.

FWIW. Many years ago, an experienced watch repairman told me to not wear a watch to bed. He said that they needed to be taken apart and cleaned much more frequently. He went on to add, that a lot of lint found it's way into those watches regularly worn to bed. It made sense to me, so I never wear a watch to bed. I don't know if his advice includes watches with screwdown crowns.

As to the Casio I pointed out, it is polished, and will reflect light very well. Also, after a few hours without light, the face is hard to read in complete darkness. The watch does not use tritum for markers. As for light reflection, most all the watches that I have, reflect light very well; especially from the glass lens/crystal covering the watch face. I have not looked for a watch with an antireflective lens/crystal, I suppose they are out there.

I must say, that you are putting a lot of time and research into your quest for a watch. I hope you find what you are looking for. TR has it boiled down pretty well; he always does. Again, good luck.

RF 1

MtnGoat
11-03-2012, 22:00
Thanks for the reply.. I will still state that buy what you need. Most watches nowsdays that are "ruggedized " will do what you're asking of a watch.


I was hoping to wear something through BCT that I can wear 24/7, not need to take it off during muddy low crawls or showers, and not have to worry about it being inaccurate (losing/gaining minutes monthly, etc...)

I will say that what TR said, about that if start going solar, or Kinetic Watches you may not worry about batteries. But I personally don't like those style watches for work. Don't get one of the watches that you can charge off a laptop or wall, BAD IDEA for the feild!!!!!!!

Buy what you need it for.. Tell time, alarms, stop watch, timers, Back lightings??? GPS?? altimeter?? barometer?? thermometer?? Maybe kool and great to have, but do you need a $300 to $1000.00 watch for muddy low crawls or showers and to wear 24/7?? WHAT ARE YOUR NEEDS? I say buy for your needs and go from there. Needs will change later on. Just like that Laptop or Ipod you got last year!!??!! :D

Look on Youtube too, a lott of reviews on watches there too. If you haven't already.

El Rojo
11-04-2012, 15:03
I have been wearing a tough solar G-Shock for a few years now with no issues. Its pretty basic but keeps good time and doesn't need its battery changed.

Dozer523
11-04-2012, 21:31
I don't think the watch makes the man

TR Right. it takes more than a Rolex.
You need a cool car,
and a pair of Rayban Aviators,
and a Harley,
and a leather jacket,
and a pretty wife or a hot girl friend (or both)
and a green beret.

Ret10Echo
11-05-2012, 07:04
Concur with the general thought of function over form. The watch is a tool and you need to be "OK" with using it as a hammer if necessary :eek:

My Casio use started back in the late 80’s – early 90’s. My first was a Casio ARW-320 (Alti-Depth). The Altimeter function came in handy for navigating in mountainous terrain. Of course it was necessary to understand the impact of weather and barometric changes on the readings. Fate: After several battery changes the watch eventually just stopped functioning and had to be retired.

The first of several G-shocks I’ve owned through the years began with the DW-5900E… Never had issues with the watch although the bands would only last about a year or so. I think Casio changed the materials as the newer models seem to fare better and not be as brittle. Fate: The outer plastic/rubber split and fell off the watch so it was basically a metal disk.

Replacement G-Shock DW met a similar fate after about 4 years of use. The plastic covers over the selection buttons fell off one by one which left fairly sharp pins you either had to press or got snagged on things… There were a couple others along the way that ended up in similar condition and were retired either due to physical damage or after a couple years would simply cease to function for whatever reason. It was cheaper to replace than repair in most cases.

Life for these watches was abusive. All watches went unpressurized to altitude, extremes of heat and cold and were victim to whatever else I went through. None cost over $100. I found increased functionality also included increased battery consumption. Bezel and case construction mattered as the integrity of the watch would be compromised if gaskets were damaged or became worn. I had one instance where a jeweler incorrectly reassembled the watch (inverted a metal gasket during a battery replacement) and took me some time to determine what the cause of the problem was. I liked the durability in relation to the price point. Ease of use and readability of the dial were primary. Didn’t help having a dozen different readouts and indicators on the dial that I couldn’t make out… A digital circle sweeping for seconds was pretty much worthless and just cluttered the face. Likewise function indicators that were very difficult to read were a turn-off.

As a former-action-guy.. I’ve stuck with Casio for day-to-day wear…but have no need for the durability of the G-shock and have gone with the functionality of an analog watch with digital alarms.

Dadaleci
11-05-2012, 08:25
Go to Wal Mart and buy this watch:

http://www.walmart.com/ip/1762770?adid=22222222227001436205&wmlspartner=wlpa&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=&wl3=14117550310&wl4=&wl5=pla&veh=sem


IMO, this is more than enough watch for telling time, making it through the low crawl pit, and reminding you to wake your battle buddy to take over fireguard. Go out and get a more high speed and expensive model as a BCT and AIT graduation gift to yourself with the piles of money the Army will be paying you.

Ironically enough, the DW-9052 is exactly what I bought last night from Wal-Mart for $46, I only just read your post now, so good advice, as I enjoy the watch and its simplicity.

Thank you Ret10Echo, I read your post and, like others I've read before who wore G-Shocks and Casios, have realized that their line of watches are affordable, durable, and should not let you down easily.

I really do want a reliable Analog some day, most likely will get one of the Nite MX10's or something very similar (meant to be 'mil-spec', reportedly given to members of SAS, I think it is one of the few legit companies that claim such though, and isn't just a marketing ploy.)

I know I have a habit of over-complicating simple purchases for myself, but I like to make sure I get it right the first time, as I dislike shopping for myself.

Thanks Dozer523 for the laugh, the "Green Beret" ending was great. I'd love to be a part of the legacy, but I think my color deficiency will hold me back from that ever happening. But the Army needs 68W's too, so I'm just glad to be helping any way I can.

Best wishes to all of you, will speak to you again I'm sure, most likely after BCT though.

ZonieDiver
11-05-2012, 14:43
Thank God that's over!

Sdiver
11-05-2012, 15:00
Thank God that's over!

WHAT !!!!!!!!
DID YOU SAY, OVER ?????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8lT1o0sDwI

:D

Dusty
11-05-2012, 15:11
WHAT !!!!!!!!
DID YOU SAY, OVER ?????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8lT1o0sDwI

:D

Dude, either put down the mouse, or put the box of wine back in the fridge.

x SF med
11-05-2012, 15:22
Thank God that's over!

I can give you an AMEN on that, Brother.:cool:

Dadaleci
11-05-2012, 15:24
Thank God that's over!

Until my next watch purchase.

Ret10Echo
11-05-2012, 16:21
Dude, either put down the mouse, or put the box of wine back in the fridge.

Next thing you know he's taking a cutting torch to Flounder's Brother's car... Geeesh...

MR2
11-05-2012, 17:30
Thank God that's over!

About time...

Dozer523
11-05-2012, 18:29
I can give you an AMEN on that, Brother.:cool:

"Forget it, he's rolling."
Oh look, he's not an asset any more.
This thread is so cute!:D:D:D

Dadaleci
11-05-2012, 18:37
Happy to be your punching bag, always at your service :)

ZonieDiver
11-05-2012, 19:43
For the love of Pete... someone in authority CLOSE this thread... please...please. I've already thrown MY Casio into the trash on general principles. (Oh, wait... I forgot... a lot of generals don't have principles anymore. Never mind...)