A crisis of trust and cultural incompatibility

[Unapologetic Soldier]

I was going to post this as a reply to the Green on Blue thread poster a few days back but decided against it. This RED report addresses the culture difference between ISAF and ANSF as a way of mitigating green of blue attacks.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB370/docs/Document%2011.pdf

It's an interesting read and brings to light many issues that may have been overlooked in the past. (Some of it's nothing new) I recommend anyone heading down rang (AFGAN) read this before pushing out.

[Adam1680]

Thanks for posting this, it's an interesting read..

That being said, understand that there are many factors contributing to why this is happening and most of them are not cultural differences or anything of the sort.

I'm not gloating, saying that USSF are indestructable, or that we don't make mistakes; however, these events are not happening to us. There is a reason for that. Without making derogatory statements about services, units, practices, leadership, or how things are currently running over here right now, that's all I can really elaborate, so my apologies in advance for being vague.

Another note... - This paper assessed one region that had the same battlespace owner (1 brigade).. The more I read this paper, the more it doesn't tell you anything except for the one region of RC-E and the one unit. If they went to different battlespace owners in different regions and received similiar results, then and only then would I go so far to state "cultural differences". I haven't finished the paper, but if negative, one could argue this unit didn't treat its counterparts properly as the summary instead of cultural differences.

[Unapologetic Soldier]

Thanks for posting this, it's an interesting read..

That being said, understand that there are many factors contributing to why this is happening and most of them are not cultural differences or anything of the sort.

I'm not gloating, saying that USSF are indestructable, or that we don't make mistakes; however, these events are not happening to us. There is a reason for that. Without making derogatory statements about services, units, practices, leadership, or how things are currently running over here right now, that's all I can really elaborate, so my apologies in advance for being vague.

Another note... - This paper assessed one region that had the same battlespace owner (1 brigade).. The more I read this paper, the more it doesn't tell you anything except for the one region of RC-E and the one unit. If they went to different battlespace owners in different regions and received similiar results, then and only then would I go so far to state "cultural differences". I haven't finished the paper, but if negative, one could argue this unit didn't treat its counterparts properly as the summary instead of cultural differences.

I’ll go out on a limb and disagree with your statement. This report specifically states multiple times that the root of this problem comes from cultural difference between ISAF and ANSF. After reading this report and saying that it has nothing to do cultural differences or anything of the sort are you saying you agree with President Karzia’s response saying that foreign spy agency are behind the Green on blue attacks? (Not trying to put words in your month) Additional, yes the results for the research are geographically limited for ISAF, although if all of RC-E are saying the same thing their words should not be so easily dismissed.

Besides the ANSF perceptions of ISAF came from 613 ANSF individuals. The report states “Many of these participants reported having been previously stationed in a wide variety of other provinces country-wide. They were instructed to base their answers on their total experience, including those regions as well.” Suggesting that this problem is only limited to RC-E or a problem created by the BSO is what I would call inaccurate. (See pg 6 for quote)

[Adam1680]

I didn't say "nothing to do with cultural differences.." I said MOST of them are not.. I also didn't say anything about any foreign spy agencies.. In addition, how often do you think the ANSF units change RC's? I can tell you the 201st Corps (where these soldiers are from) have been in the same place for a long time. So it doesn't matter their total experience, MOST of them still haven't been to RC-S, W, N.. Maybe SOME have.. But that report talks in vague generalities with broad brush strokes. I never said there was nothing valid about that report, just that the statistics could easily be skewed to mean something completely different based on those polled. I can almost guarantee different corps, different RC's, differerent cultures, different reports. I can assure you that ALL of RC-E is not saying the same thing.. (Nobody from 203rd corps was even polled...) If you're arguing the ugly American causes some green on blue incidents, you definitely won't get an argument from me. Lastly, I wouldn't argue most of the claims made by the ANSF are cultural differences. Do you really believe killing civilians, breaking people's things in their house, rudeness, swearing, urinating/ defecating in public near people's residence, etc. etc. are cultural differences?? Definitely not acceptable in American culture either..

I'm not sure what level you're working at right now, but there are a lot of things going on that you're probably not aware of.. I'm not trying to be mean, but at IJC/ RC/ SOJTF/ SOTF level, you probably don't have any awareness of decisions being made or the direction things are going. I have the unfortunate honor of working at that level for this deployment.

If you really want to talk specific conditions that I believe contribute to these incidents more than simply culture, feel free to PM me.

[blue02hd]

GIJOE,,,

I hope you realize that this forum is dedicated to men who are trained, tasked, and currently working endless hours in harms way to BUILD Trust and Cultural Compatibility?



You may be amazed at what the Q Course has to offer with respect to these issues. (I add this as I am under the impression you are not SF Qualified). I would also warn you away from holding up "a" study as the root of all ground truths. As ADAM, an 18A who is currently knee deep within this problem set has pointed out to you, there are more complicated factors at hand that Battle Field Tourists such as the PHD'd thousand pound brained scientists cannot capture. This is always true whenever Reviews and Journals are written "from the gound POV, which means they read SITREPS and interviewed at the SOTF/BSO Level. IF security allowed, and the trans could be scheduled, then they could touch the "ground" but for a brief moment. Seen it over and over, and the intellectual products that are the result vary greatly with respect to accuracy and relevancy.

The dynamic has also changed drastically over this past year, as anyone in the RC East can tell you.

Hell I like you!! You are showing true focus and intelligence by researching and analyzing information concerning the safety of you and your unit. Just keep an open mind when you begin discussing your POV in here please?

There will always remain a HUGE gap between those views and experiences shared by the men here who have to live, work, and suffer the consequences of failure, and those educated specialists who write lofty opinions that spin the wheels of Political or Military Leaders who can't understand "PROBLEM x" for themselves.

Culture is HUGE, of course. But ignoring the economic, political, family, criminal, psychological, intelligence, and survival dynamics (which changes not only from culture to culture, but region to region, district to district, and village to village) with the always present and monstrously important Time Line that effects everything will lead to similarly fatal results. Hell the weather even has a vote.

But yeah your right! This shits not easy.

[Inflexible Six]

delete

[Unapologetic Soldier]

Lastly, I wouldn't argue most of the claims made by the ANSF are cultural differences. Do you really believe killing civilians, breaking people's things in their house, rudeness, swearing, urinating/ defecating in public near people's residence, etc. etc. are cultural differences?? Definitely not acceptable in American culture either..

I'm not sure what level you're working at right now, but there are a lot of things going on that you're probably not aware of.. I'm not trying to be mean, but at IJC/ RC/ SOJTF/ SOTF level, you probably don't have any awareness of decisions being made or the direction things are going. I have the unfortunate honor of working at that level for this deployment.

If you really want to talk specific conditions that I believe contribute to these incidents more than simply culture, feel free to PM me.

You bring up many issues I would not argue with. I’m currently working on a Battalion level SFAT team in RC-S and none of the Soldiers from my Kandak were polled either. On the same hand, I do get the same feelings as what’s being reported in conversations I have with my ANA counterparts.
I would also say killing civilians, breaking people things…………….. is not “cultural difference” but a matter of being a respectable person/Soldier. Other issues such as respecting women or the Koran outranking orders is IMO a difference in cultural.

If you’re willing to share your wisdom with me on what’s going on it would be appreciated. Also, so you know I was not trying to be a smart ass I thought it was a ligament question so I asked. Question + Answers = a more educated GIJOE. :)

[blue02hd]

GIJOE, ADAM,

Stay Safe,,,

[Unapologetic Soldier]

Sir,
I am tracking who this site is for and what they’re doing even as we speak. I am not a QP nor am I ignorant enough to hide behind a study, especially on this site! Disrespect to anyone on this site is not what my aim is.

As I told adam1680 I’m currently deployed and working on a SFAT. I like to stay current; it’s in my best interest seeing how I work with the ANA daily. I ask question and form my POV based off the information that I have. (Open source and first hand experience). My POV or questions may seem retarded to QP’s because of the level you guys operate on but it’s what I have to go off. I’m here to learn.

Thanks for your time, I’ll continue to keep my eyes and ears open.