View Full Version : Out of Africa
Guymullins
08-22-2012, 13:04
It is good to see that some things of lasting value have come from South Africa. The Boy Scouts movement, which appears to have a strong following here, came from Mafiking, a small town in the Northern Cape Province. It was held under siege during the Boer War when 75 000 Boers kept an army of 450 000 British at bay for two years. Lord Baden Powell, a British officer in Mafeking founded the Boy Scouts in order to get essential tasks done during the siege and also to keep the youngsters from becoming idle and bored.
This is fairly common knowledge, but what isnt well known, is that the British Commandos, and by extension, your US Rangers have their origins here as well. The Boers ran their volunteer army as a system of Kommandos, a force originating from a single geographic area, commanded by a Kommandant, or Lt. Colonel. These Kommandos were the inventors of modern guerrilla war in that they pioneered the hit and run tactics that tied up hundreds of thousands of British troops using a handful of irregular Boer soldiers. The Boers also invented trench warfare. The British were so impressed by the Kommandos, that Winston Churchill, who had been captured by the Boers during the war, decided that they would call their new WW2 special forces , the Commandos, in emulation of their warlike spirit and unconventional tactics. When the US Rangers were established, they merged with the British Commandos and other SF units. Today, the marching tune used by the Marine Commandos is Sarie Marais, an old Afrikaans folk song. Small world isnt it?
That's some cool history. I know the Boers could shoot. :cool:
Guymullins
08-22-2012, 13:43
Yes Dusty, they were people, much like your frontiersmen, who shot for the pot on a daily basis. City slickers from London or Manchester couldnt compete with that, but it must be said. The Boers had far superior rifles to the British. The Mauser compared to the Martini Henry was balistically and powerwise light years ahead.
ZonieDiver
08-22-2012, 13:45
The Boers also invented trench warfare.
I'm not sure I agree with you a hundred percent on your police work, there, Lou.
I guess it may all depend upon how one defines "trench warfare"! However, I'm pretty sure Vauban would disagree, as would the American Civil War soldiers at Petersburg.
Guymullins
08-22-2012, 13:58
I guess it may all depend upon how one defines "trench warfare"! However, I'm pretty sure Vauban would disagree, as would the American Civil War soldiers at Petersburg.
Zonie, I have probably overstated the case there. It has probably been known since the Spartans, but the Battle of Modder River was the first time the British had encountered trench warfare. The Boers dug proper slit trenches and strung trip wires with empty stone filled cans on them to warn of a night attack. A little later, at the Battle of Magersfontein, the Boers survived a massive artillery barrage completely unscathed in their trenches, then wiped out several crack Higthland regiments in the battle that followed.
The Boers also invented trench warfare.Those damn American Democratic Party liberals screwed the CSA by using a method of warfare that had not yet been invented.
And those damn revisionist historians, at it again (http://www.amazon.com/American-Civil-Origins-Modern-Warfare/dp/0253207150/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1345665341&sr=1-5). And again (http://www.amazon.com/Trench-Warfare-under-Grant-Fortifications/dp/0807831549/ref=la_B001H6U5W4_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1345665398&sr=1-8). And yet still again (http://www.amazon.com/In-Trenches-Petersburg-Fortifications-Confederate/dp/0807832820/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_c).
Guymullins
08-22-2012, 14:13
At the start of the Boer War, our General Koos De La Rey was certainly unaware of the innovations of the American Civil War. His only reading matter was the family bible and that didnt feature any Yankee know-how. The British were also blissfully unaware of trench warfare as it took them some considerable time to adapt their tactics to minimise the damage they suffered because of it. So, it was not known to the worlds greatest Empire at the time, and it was" invented" in ignorance that it had been used on the other side of the world. As I said earlier, I overstated the case, but in our hemisphere, it was a new new deadly thing thought by an unschooled farmer turned reluctant General.
ZonieDiver
08-22-2012, 14:21
At the start of the Boer War, our General Koos De La Rey was certainly unaware of the innovations of the American Civil War. His only reading matter was the family bible and that didnt feature any Yankee know-how. The British were also blissfully unaware of trench warfare as it took them some considerable time to adapt their tactics to minimise the damage they suffered because of it. So, it was not known to the worlds greatest Empire at the time, and it was" invented" in ignorance that it had been used on the other side of the world. As I said earlier, I overstated the case, but in our hemisphere, it was a new new deadly thing thought by an unschooled farmer turned reluctant General.
I'm pretty sure the British had some vague ideas about trench warfare, since a variety had been used by the French in sieges of fortresses, and British military schools undoubtedly studied it at some point.
http://www.fortified-places.com/sieges/maastricht1673.html
They also had "observers" during, as some say, "The Late Unpleasantness" here in the USofA, and were probably aware of such things. Adapting to them is another matter, as WWI demonstrated.
As far as the UK's Commandos go, it seems to me as if it had more to do with the German formations than the Boers - at least in Churchill's mind.
The Army Commandos were formed in June 1940, at a time when the British Empire no longer had a single ally in the field, and when the British Army had been compelled to quit the continent of Europe as a result of the disastrous campaigns in Norway and the Low Countries. While the germ of the idea had originated in the brain of Lieut-Colonel Dudley Clarke R.A., as early as 4th June 1940, it was Winston Churchill himself who, not content with a purely passive defensive, actually ordered their formation. In a minute of 18th June, 1940, he wrote: "What are the ideas of C,-in-C., H.F., about Storm Troops? We hae always set our faces against the idea, but the Germans certainly gained in thee last war by adopting it, and this time it has been a leading cause of their victory. There ought to be at least twenty thousand Storm Troops or 'Leopards' drawn from existing units, ready to spring at the throat of any small landings or descents. These officers and men should be armed with the latest equipment, tommy guns, grenades, etc., and should be given great facilities in motor-cycles and armoured cars." The first Commando raid took place only five days later.
http://www.commandoveterans.org/site/mambots/editors/fckeditor/editor/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=79&Itemid=
And from Wordorigins.org:
The sense of the word commando, meaning an elite soldier, appeared during the Second World War with the raids on occupied France by elite British forces of that name. Winston Churchill wrote to General Ismay on 2 July 1940:
If it be true that a few hundred German troops have been landed on Jersey or Guernsey by troop-carriers, plans should be studied to land secretly by night on the islands and kill or capture the invaders. This is exactly one of the exploits for which the Commandos would be suited.
But the word is much older and is South African, or Afrikaans, not British, in origin. It is a borrowing from Portuguese meaning a military command and used specifically to denote a party of men conducting a military raid or expedition, especially one by European colonists in southern Africa against native Africans. From G. Carter’s 1791 Loss of Grosvenor:
“A colonist,” says he, “who lives...up the country...intreats a commando, which is a permission to go, with the help of his neighbours, to retake his property.”
Afrikaans took the word from the Portuguese using it in the phrase on commando, referring to militia service. From William J. Burchell’s 1824 Travels in the Interior of Southern Africa:
The master himself was at this time absent on the Commando, or militia-service, against the Caffres in the Zuureveld.
The word again rose to prominence in the 1899-1902 Boer War, when it was used to refer to Boer militia units fighting the British. From the Westminster Gazette, 11 November 1899:
The President...has the right of declaring war and calling up one or more commandos.
(Source: Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd Edition)
http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/more/233/
You might consider doing a bit more research on the Boy Scouts, too, while you're researching those slit trench histories you seemed to have pulled from Wikipedia.
Richard :munchin
At the start of the Boer War, our General Koos De La Rey was certainly unaware of the innovations of the American Civil War. His only reading matter was the family bible and that didnt feature any Yankee know-how. The British were also blissfully unaware of trench warfare as it took them some considerable time to adapt their tactics to minimise the damage they suffered because of it. So, it was not known to the worlds greatest Empire at the time, and it was" invented" in ignorance that it had been used on the other side of the world. As I said earlier, I overstated the case, but in our hemisphere, it was a new new deadly thing thought by an unschooled farmer turned reluctant General.Are you saying that Great Britain did not have any observers in the United States during the American Civil War?
Is it your argument that, in the decades following the American Civil War, there was not an international dialogue about that conflict and future wars? A dialogue that saw military observers from a variety of nations going on tours to see the battlefields of wars currently in progress and to discuss recent conflicts?
(Do you have any actual historical evidence to establish what GEN Koos de la Rey did or did not know? You know, stuff like a catalog of the books he owned, an analysis of the marginalia in those books, letters/articles/press clippings, comments about warfare that he made either contemporaneously or after the fact?)
Let's not forget Crimea. Of course it was mostly artillery doing the digging.
Thin Red Line and all, what, what!
And by Spion Kop time it shows the British troops were just as brave and the Army Leadership just as dumb.
14 years later the British Generals were still 50 years behind technology.
Guymullins
08-22-2012, 15:52
As far as the UK's Commandos go, it seems to me as if it had more to do with the German formations than the Boers - at least in Churchill's mind.
http://www.commandoveterans.org/site/mambots/editors/fckeditor/editor/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=79&Itemid=
And from Wordorigins.org:
The sense of the word commando, meaning an elite soldier, appeared during the Second World War with the raids on occupied France by elite British forces of that name. Winston Churchill wrote to General Ismay on 2 July 1940:
If it be true that a few hundred German troops have been landed on Jersey or Guernsey by troop-carriers, plans should be studied to land secretly by night on the islands and kill or capture the invaders. This is exactly one of the exploits for which the Commandos would be suited.
But the word is much older and is South African, or Afrikaans, not British, in origin. It is a borrowing from Portuguese meaning a military command and used specifically to denote a party of men conducting a military raid or expedition, especially one by European colonists in southern Africa against native Africans. From G. Carter’s 1791 Loss of Grosvenor:
“A colonist,” says he, “who lives...up the country...intreats a commando, which is a permission to go, with the help of his neighbours, to retake his property.”
Afrikaans took the word from the Portuguese using it in the phrase on commando, referring to militia service. From William J. Burchell’s 1824 Travels in the Interior of Southern Africa:
The master himself was at this time absent on the Commando, or militia-service, against the Caffres in the Zuureveld.
The word again rose to prominence in the 1899-1902 Boer War, when it was used to refer to Boer militia units fighting the British. From the Westminster Gazette, 11 November 1899:
The President...has the right of declaring war and calling up one or more commandos.
(Source: Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd Edition)
http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/more/233/
You might consider doing a bit more research on the Boy Scouts, too, while you're researching those slit trench histories you seemed to have pulled from Wikipedia.
Richard :munchin
Richard, Afrikaans is one of the youngest languages and is entirely made up from borrowed words. Mainly Dutch in origin, but with a strong French influence from the Huguenots who fled France for Africa. There are many Portuguese words too, because they were neighbors on both east and west sides. There was German from German SW Africa, another neighbor and of course English due to being an English Colony for some time. So, when someone say an Afrikaans word, it could have come from almost any language originally.
What exactly is your problem with the Boy Scouts? Dont tell me they were actually invented by Davy Crockett and Mr Bowie at the Alamo?
Dont tell me they were actually invented by Davy Crockett and Mr Bowie at the Alamo?It is interesting how you attempt to draw comparisons between the history of SA and U.S. history--but quickly come to mock the latter when your understanding of either is questioned.
What exactly is your problem with the Boy Scouts? Dont tell me they were actually invented by Davy Crockett and Mr Bowie at the Alamo?
Sarcasm noted.
I was a Scout as were my sons, one of which achieved the rank of Eagle.
This is what the BSA says about its founder and their history.
http://www.scout.org/en/about_scouting/facts_figures/history/b_p_chief_scout_of_the_world
Today, the marching tune used by the Marine Commandos is Sarie Marais, an old Afrikaans folk song.
And an even older CSA tune.
Granted, the "Sarie Marais" was a Boer song about the Boer War, but the tune was originally called "Ellie Rhee" and it comes - ironically - from the Confederate States of America.
"Ellie Rhee" tells the story of a Tennessee slave who runs away from his master but now wonders if the price of his new-found freedom (the loss of his one true love) was too high to pay.
Although the song never enjoyed enormous popularity here, it certainly has as the basis for "My Sarie Marais Is So Ver Van My Hart."
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
The Boers were outstanding warriors.
The Scout thing's moot if they go gay; then, nobody will claim lineage. ;)
Team Sergeant
08-22-2012, 20:24
It is interesting how you attempt to draw comparisons between the history of SA and U.S. history--but quickly come to mock the latter when your understanding of either is questioned.
Sigaba, I just sent you the:
Military Order of the Loyal Legion of the United States, Commandery of the State of New York. 1867-1922 [Eight Volumes]
New York Commandery
First edition
It needs to be transcribed, it's in Latin, now go and play.
Warriors are chatting.
TS
mark46th
08-22-2012, 20:51
TS- One of those reasons why Team Sergeants yell.
What exactly is your problem with the Boy Scouts? Dont tell me they were actually invented by Davy Crockett and Mr Bowie at the Alamo?
Funny you should mention that. The Boy Scouts of America was indeed heavily influenced by B-P's Scout organization; however, they also find their lineage in Daniel Carter Beard's Sons of Daniel Boone and Ernest Thompson Seton's Woodcraft Indians. In fact, all three men knew of each other's youth movements, and B-P even used elements of Seton's Woodcraft Indian program in fleshing out his Scout program. So, it could be said that while B-P was "majority owner", as it were, of today's World Organization of the Scout Movement, there's more than a trace of Yank blood flowing through its veins.
The Scout thing's moot if they go gay; then, nobody will claim lineage.
Ironically, Dusty, there are plenty of questions about ol' B-P's partner preference.
Guymullins
08-23-2012, 01:00
Sarcasm noted.
I was a Scout as were my sons, one of which achieved the rank of Eagle.
This is what the BSA says about its founder and their history.
http://www.scout.org/en/about_scouting/facts_figures/history/b_p_chief_scout_of_the_world
And an even older CSA tune.
Granted, the "Sarie Marais" was a Boer song about the Boer War, but the tune was originally called "Ellie Rhee" and it comes - ironically - from the Confederate States of America.
"Ellie Rhee" tells the story of a Tennessee slave who runs away from his master but now wonders if the price of his new-found freedom (the loss of his one true love) was too high to pay.
Although the song never enjoyed enormous popularity here, it certainly has as the basis for "My Sarie Marais Is So Ver Van My Hart."
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
Richard, I had heard that about the origin of Sarie Marais and I am sure it may be true. However, the Royal Marine Commando Marching Song version is surely derived from the Afrikaans vesion. Incidentally, I was a Scout too, but the bastardised and watered down South African version.
The Wiki sourse for Trenches is probably derived from the book I use for all things concerning the Boer War, Thomas Packenhams Boer War. It is an excellent very readable history of the war and at last , gives the story without taking sides. All the other Boer War books have been either totally anti-British or the reverse regarding the Boers. Another good book is Three Years War by Gen. Christiaan De Wet, but I doubt whether you can get that there.
Guymullins
08-23-2012, 01:14
Funny you should mention that. The Boy Scouts of America was indeed heavily influenced by B-P's Scout organization; however, they also find their lineage in Daniel Carter Beard's Sons of Daniel Boone and Ernest Thompson Seton's Woodcraft Indians. In fact, all three men knew of each other's youth movements, and B-P even used elements of Seton's Woodcraft Indian program in fleshing out his Scout program. So, it could be said that while B-P was "majority owner", as it were, of today's World Organization of the Scout Movement, there's more than a trace of Yank blood flowing through its veins.
Ironically, Dusty, there are plenty of questions about ol' B-P's partner preference.
Regarding the Gayness, or grumpiness of BP. The Victorian English Gentleman of the time was an energetic and industrius fellow who often sublimated his sex drive by doing great things. Cecil Rhodes was also accused (many years after his death) of having doubtful sexual orientation. He never married, in contrast to BP, but died very young although he achieved great things. Although much digging has been done into his past, no-one has managed to prove anything one way or the other about him. I dont think either BP or Rhodes were gay, but Sigaba will no doubt demand that I examine their underwear and report in detail on the stains found therein.
TiroFijo
08-23-2012, 12:53
Afrikaans is one of the youngest languages and is entirely made up from borrowed words. Mainly Dutch in origin, but with a strong French influence from the Huguenots who fled France for Africa. There are many Portuguese words too, because they were neighbors on both east and west sides. There was German from German SW Africa, another neighbor and of course English due to being an English Colony for some time. So, when someone say an Afrikaans word, it could have come from almost any language originally.
IIRC, and according to my language teachers at U. of Pretoria, about 90% of afrikaans words come from ancient ducth. And from my belgian friends, the flemish dialect has more in common (and pronunciation) with afrikaans than modern dutch.
I have sadly forgotten about 90% of the little afrikaans I learned...
I'm a native spanish speaker, but my english was pretty decent and I think actually got worse after two years submerged into afrikanerland :)
Guymullins
08-23-2012, 14:53
IIRC, and according to my language teachers at U. of Pretoria, about 90% of afrikaans words come from ancient ducth. And from my belgian friends, the flemish dialect has more in common (and pronunciation) with afrikaans than modern dutch.
I have sadly forgotten about 90% of the little afrikaans I learned...
I'm a native spanish speaker, but my english was pretty decent and I think actually got worse after two years submerged into afrikanerland :)
That could be about right Tiro. The Afrikaaners who left the Cape still spoke High Dutch and their only reading matter, their bibles, were in Dutch. Being litteral people, they refused to give the new animals they encountered new names, but used only names that occured in the Bible. Thus a Hippo became a Sea Cow, a girraffe a Camel Horse, a Meercat a mouse dog, a leopard a Tger despite no stripes and an Impala, a Red Goat. Today, I find it fairly easy to read Dutch, but very difficult to speak and hear it. Flemish and Afrikaans are so close it is just a matter of accent that differentiates and I suppose this is also because of the French influence acting on both Dutch-based languages acting completely independently of one another, but coming to a similar conclusion. If you were in Pretoria, you would have heard much more Afrikaans than English, so you were probably tri-lingual here.
TiroFijo
08-23-2012, 15:22
Ja, nearly all my friends and professors were afrikaner, and some families remembered well the "umpleasantries" of the Boer war and still disliked to some extent the english. If you are of english origin you should know that well, specially in the army.
Compared to U. of Pretoria, liberal Johannesburg Wits was "Moscow on the Hills" :)
When Mandela came to our university it was something to see.
Oddly, being a catholic from south america the family values, friends and lifestyle of most of SA made me feel at home inmediatly. And you could go to the Chaco region around here and think you are in the SA bush.
Guymullins
08-24-2012, 02:06
Ja, nearly all my friends and professors were afrikaner, and some families remembered well the "umpleasantries" of the Boer war and still disliked to some extent the english. If you are of english origin you should know that well, specially in the army.
Compared to U. of Pretoria, liberal Johannesburg Wits was "Moscow on the Hills" :)
When Mandela came to our university it was something to see.
Oddly, being a catholic from south america the family values, friends and lifestyle of most of SA made me feel at home inmediatly. And you could go to the Chaco region around here and think you are in the SA bush.
I am of Irish/Greek extraction, but married an Afrikaaner so I am well aware of the antipathy to the English because of another first South Africa gave to the world. Concentration Camps. The British during the Boer War rounded up the families of the Boers and put them into Concentration Camps where they were allowed to die of starvation and disease by the thousands.
I am of Irish/Greek extraction, but married an Afrikaaner so I am well aware of the antipathy to the English because of another first South Africa gave to the world. Concentration Camps. The British during the Boer War rounded up the families of the Boers and put them into Concentration Camps where they were allowed to die of starvation and disease by the thousands.
I have always been taught that such camps - as we've come to understand them - first appeared in Spain's war against Cuban independence and then by the English during the Boer War.
Richard :munchin
Guymullins
08-24-2012, 08:39
I have always been taught that such camps - as we've come to understand them - first appeared in Spain's war against Cuban independence and then by the English during the Boer War.
Richard :munchin
If you go right back, you can argue that the US camps used to inter the Indian tribes were the first ones, followed by the Spanish Cuban ones, which were called reconcentrados or re-concentration camps. I think the first time the word Concentration Camp was used, it was by the English in South Africa. The Germans used them in our neighboring territory German South West Africa as well in real genocidal intent. They perfected them during WW2 many years later.
I am of Irish/Greek extraction, but married an Afrikaaner so I am well aware of the antipathy to the English because of another first South Africa gave to the world. Concentration Camps. The British during the Boer War rounded up the families of the Boers and put them into Concentration Camps where they were allowed to die of starvation and disease by the thousands.
If you go right back, you can argue that the US camps used to inter the Indian tribes were the first ones, followed by the Spanish Cuban ones, which were called reconcentrados or re-concentration camps. I think the first time the word Concentration Camp was used, it was by the English in South Africa. The Germans used them in our neighboring territory German South West Africa as well in real genocidal intent. They perfected them during WW2 many years later.
So now you're saying it wasn't South Africa which gave us the concpet of 'concentration camps' as "we've come to understand them in recent history", but America? :confused: Nothing like perverse view of Yankee ingenuity combined with pseudo-historical revisionim on a scale which would make the likes of a Ward Churchill proud to liven up a discussion of this sort.
Richard :munchin
Guymullins
08-25-2012, 15:20
So now you're saying it wasn't South Africa which gave us the concpet of 'concentration camps' as "we've come to understand them in recent history", but America? :confused: Nothing like perverse view of Yankee ingenuity combined with pseudo-historical revisionim on a scale which would make the likes of a Ward Churchill proud to liven up a discussion of this sort.
Richard :munchin
Yes, if people wish to pick nits about things, I can also do so. This time it rebounds upon the nit-picker somewhat.
ZonieDiver
08-25-2012, 15:37
Yes, if people wish to pick nits about things, I can also do so. This time it rebounds upon the nit-picker somewhat.
I'm still in 'crabby mode'! Who the F are you calling a 'nit-picker'?
No pink. No smiley. No nothing
I think this whole Thread needs a dose of Qwell.
and I mean both meanings!
Yes, if people wish to pick nits about things, I can also do so. This time it rebounds upon the nit-picker somewhat.
You stated one thing and then - when called on it - said something else and then - when called on that - call it nit picking.
Ek doen 'n beroep dat, "Jy is vol kak!"**
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
** That may not be 100% correct, but I'm sure you'll get the "Duffer's Drift" of what I meant.
ZonieDiver
08-25-2012, 16:12
I think this whole Thread needs a dose of Qwell.
and I mean both meanings!
Yes, my Brother.
However, (still in my very crabby mode) I am very tired of 'whomever' challenging, clarifying, adding-on, contradicting QPs on a QP board.
Richard may be a lot of things. Call him a 'nit-picker' - unless your a Brother QP, and even then, not in public - and you're on 'the fighting side' of me.
Guymullins
08-26-2012, 02:33
You stated one thing and then - when called on it - said something else and then - when called on that - call it nit picking.
Ek doen 'n beroep dat, "Jy is vol kak!"**
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
** That may not be 100% correct, but I'm sure you'll get the "Duffer's Drift" of what I meant.
Ha Ha, excellent Richard. Where did you get that translation from? I doubt whether Google would do it so well.
Guymullins
08-26-2012, 02:40
Yes, my Brother.
However, (still in my very crabby mode) I am very tired of 'whomever' challenging, clarifying, adding-on, contradicting QPs on a QP board.
Richard may be a lot of things. Call him a 'nit-picker' - unless your a Brother QP, and even then, not in public - and you're on 'the fighting side' of me.
Its OK, you can mention names. I will cease commenting on this board. In my opinion, which I am sure many of you will take issue with, some of the QPs take themselves a little too seriously. Maybe you need to get over yourselves a little.
Destrier
08-26-2012, 05:55
Its OK, you can mention names. I will cease commenting on this board. In my opinion, which I am sure many of you will take issue with, some of the QPs take themselves a little too seriously. Maybe you need to get over yourselves a little.
Or you might have wanted to simply do more research once you realized these men will delve into a topic thoroughly. Now you simply sound like the small pup that got chased off the porch, but just has to give one last yip.