Struggling with marksmanship using Sig P228.

[Streck-Fu]

I am much more proficient with striker fired handguns and really find myself struggling with the DA/SA hammer fired Sig 228.

I do dry fire and thought things were going well during practice but when I hit the range, my precision is not getting better.

I wanted to ask if I am doing something wrong or if there is an obvious flaw. I do not want to continue practicing bad habits if I can avoid it.

Any advice and recommendations are welcome and appreciated.

Below is a video of me shooting and the resulting target (Black is 5.5"). Range is a basic 10 yards. By comparison, my shots with my Springfield XD 3" were much tighter (no picture, sorry).

Also, I am right handed and left eye dominant.

http://s490.photobucket.com/albums/rr263/streckfu/?action=view&current=123_0816.mp4

[Rob_Frey]

You may want to consider taking a training class so someone qualified can watch you shoot and correct your flaws.

[Streck-Fu]

You may want to consider taking a training class so someone qualified can watch you shoot and correct your flaws.

I plan to.

In May, I took a class with Pat MacNamara through Grey Group and did ok. 15yrds and closer, I was on target and on time but could have done much better. At 20 and 25 yards, I struggled and want to improve overall precision. I just want to get a handle on this DA/SA hammer system.

I have heard from those that took his classes that Larry Vickers is very accuracy focused and good to learn from. I plan to get into one of his classes next year. In the meantime, I plan to work on what I can.

[McNamara]

Grip and stance look ok from what I can see, but keep getting professional training on that.

The big thing I see is this: you're not putting your finger on the trigger until your sights are lined up. With a DA/SA pistol, I place my finger on the trigger at position 3 (muzzle downrange, pistol in close near the bottom of my peripheral vision). As I extend the pistol outward, I am simultaneously pressing the trigger to the rear as the sights line up. By the time sight alignment and sight picture are complete, there's just a few pounds of pressure left to go. This eliminates a lot of the shooter-induced error of a long DA pull; often, you end up chasing the sights and thinking too hard about not anticipating the shot if you do the whole pull at full extension.

Now, if it's not primarily your first shot throwing off the group size, then there may be other things at work. But I find that working the initial DA pull as above helps make the first shot more accurate and faster. Practice lots of DA dry fire going from position 3 to 4 to get comfortable with the long pull.

[Streck-Fu]

you're not putting your finger on the trigger until your sights are lined up. With a DA/SA pistol, I place my finger on the trigger at position 3 (muzzle downrange, pistol in close near the bottom of my peripheral vision). As I extend the pistol outward, I am simultaneously pressing the trigger to the rear as the sights line up. By the time sight alignment and sight picture are complete, there's just a few pounds of pressure left to go.

I do what you describe when doing drills from the holster but admit that when just standing on the line practicing marksmanship, I do not.

Pat had us perform and practice the same technique you describe when coming from the low ready or holster and, I think but have not done direct comparisons, that my first shot is more accurate.

I purposely avoided such movement when filming this video to isolate just the shot. Next time, I can incorporate the draw if it would help to evaluate.

[McNamara]

Ok, so you've already been trained to do the "press-out" or whatever we wanna call it by Pat. Good stuff. I'd just keep incorporating it into your training, whether it's from the holster, or slow fire marksmanship practice.

[Dusty]

Can you post a pic of an identical target shot with the XD?

[Streck-Fu]

Can you post a pic of an identical target shot with the XD?

I don't have one right now but will post a comparison next time I go to the range. I just didn't take a picture this time.

[koz]

When you shoot after the first round (SA), are you just coming off the trigger to re-engage the sear, or are you coming back to full reset? It's hard to tell from the video, even though I can hear it. Sometimes coming thru the SA trigger the hitting on the sear can cause you to jerk.

When you dry fire, do you ever have someone reset the pistol for you (or do it yourself holding the trigger back). So you can practice your SA trigger pull? I found that can be a problem w/ the DA/SA guns.. Otherwise you're only practicing on the DA trigger but not the SA.

Can you shoot your BEST group at 5yds and take a pic?

[Streck-Fu]

When you shoot after the first round (SA), are you just coming off the trigger to re-engage the sear, or are you coming back to full reset?

I practice to only reengage the sear and not return the trigger to full forward.


When you dry fire, do you ever have someone reset the pistol for you (or do it yourself holding the trigger back).

Dry firing the Sig (like the M9) does not require a reset like the striker fired guns. That said, I do practice both trigger pulls and I do emphasize the DA in practice because the first shot is the most important.
I still practice the SA trigger pulls as well but admit to focusing on the DA.


Can you shoot your BEST group at 5yds and take a pic?

I'll get back to the range this week (probably Friday) and take pictures of my best DA/SA group and comparison with the XD.


I have no idea if this is any benefit, but here is a video of the trigger pulls lengths with reset (for SA) with a few DA and a few SA........ LINK (http://s490.photobucket.com/albums/rr263/streckfu/?action=view&current=123_0825.mp4)

Thanks again to all responding and helping me with this.

[tom kelly]

I can not tell from your video if you are shooting with BOTH eyes open? Which eye Right or Left are you using for sight alingment & sight picture? A simple test would be to point your trigger finger of the dominant hand at the target with both eyes open; close one eye, than repeat with the other eye. The finger will stay pointed at the target for one eye, but appear to move for the non-dominant eye.
On the range, the clue that the cross dominant shooter is usually misses that impact the target a bit high, but way off to the side. For a right handed /left eyed shooter, for instance, the hits will be high and to the left. Another clue could be indicated by taking a video of the shooter and watching to see if the gun is moving slightly toward the shooter's non-dominant side or the shooter's head moving sideways as he aims. A coach or instructor can pick up these traits an adjust your sight picture into the focal plane of the left eye.
The above condition is discussed in detail in the "CONCEALED CARRY " Magazine Vol.9, issue 5 July 2012. TK

[koz]

Dry firing the Sig (like the M9) does not require a reset like the striker fired guns. That said, I do practice both trigger pulls and I do emphasize the DA in practice because the first shot is the most important.
I still practice the SA trigger pulls as well but admit to focusing on the DA.



I know how the Sig DA/SA works. :cool: Dry firing to get to the SA trigger does require a reset as you show in your video.

Also have you tried any ball and dummy drills?

My reasoning for asking for the best shot group at a close range is to see if it's a sight thing (or eye thing) or a trigger control. Try to shoot a 3-5yd group with all the rounds touching. Another thing that may help is instead of shooting a "group" - shoot a series of dots. One shot per dot. This is the first one that came up on a search http://pistol-training.com/drills/dot-torture

[Streck-Fu]

I know how the Sig DA/SA works. :cool:

That was not directed at you personally and my intent was to show the length of pull and reset for those unfamiliar.

I do not think that any QPs here are unfamiliar.... ;)

Thank you for the dot torture drill. It looks like a good focus tool.

[Streck-Fu]

Ok....A little better. Below is a video of me shooting with a snap cap inserted into an unknown position. Definitely a little flinch...

I did take my XD but stopped shooting it after the TLR-3 light broke and flew off the weapon. See separate thread. :p

Also posted are my worst target for today and my best target for the day. The high flyer on the right (best) target, I called. I had the muzzle high while pulling the trigger. Again, this is 10 yards.
I do appear to be anticipating recoil pushing it down....And I have been practicing my dryfire all week to work this out. I dryfire smoothly but the target speaks for itself.

VIDEO (http://s490.photobucket.com/albums/rr263/streckfu/?action=view&current=126_0006.mp4)

[Team Sergeant]

Ok....A little better. Below is a video of me shooting with a snap cap inserted into an unknown position. Definitely a little flinch...

I did take my XD but stopped shooting it after the TLR-3 light broke and flew off the weapon. See separate thread. :p

Also posted are my worst target for today and my best target for the day. The high flyer on the right (best) target, I called. I had the muzzle high while pulling the trigger. Again, this is 10 yards.I do appear to be anticipating recoil pushing it down....And I have been practicing my dryfire all week to work this out. I dryfire smoothly but the target speaks for itself.

VIDEO (http://s490.photobucket.com/albums/rr263/streckfu/?action=view&current=126_0006.mp4)

Some people just suck at shooting. ;) Come to Phoenix and we'll go shooting. You just need an attitude adjustment.;)

[Streck-Fu]

Some people just suck at shooting. ;)

No doubt. :D I am just trying move out of that group.

Come to Phoenix and we'll go shooting. You just need an attitude adjustment.;)

Thanks for the offer. If I make that way, I'll take you up on that....and provide the libations for after the range.

[Smokin Joe]

Some people just suck at shooting. ;) Come to Phoenix and we'll go shooting. You just need an attitude adjustment.;)

☝☝☝☝☝☝ Do that!!!!

[Rob_Frey]

Ok....A little better. Below is a video of me shooting with a snap cap inserted into an unknown position. Definitely a little flinch...

I did take my XD but stopped shooting it after the TLR-3 light broke and flew off the weapon. See separate thread. :p

Also posted are my worst target for today and my best target for the day. The high flyer on the right (best) target, I called. I had the muzzle high while pulling the trigger. Again, this is 10 yards.
I do appear to be anticipating recoil pushing it down....And I have been practicing my dryfire all week to work this out. I dryfire smoothly but the target speaks for itself.

VIDEO (http://s490.photobucket.com/albums/rr263/streckfu/?action=view&current=126_0006.mp4)


That's what I saw too with the snap cap.