View Full Version : 14 Dead, 50 Hurt In Mass Shooting Inside Aurora Movie Theater
14 Dead, 50 Hurt In Mass Shooting Inside Aurora Movie Theater
Well, this sucks. Lots of us know folks in that area.
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31289126/detail.html
"AURORA, Colo. -- An overnight shooting inside a movie theater near the Aurora Mall has killed 14 people and injured at least 50 others, according to police officers at the scene................. "
Damn unbelievable, what the hell is going on with people these days???
Incredible.
Prayers and well wishes to the victims and families...damn...
BigJimCalhoun
07-20-2012, 05:57
When I get to work I will know if anyone I know lost a loved one.
mud slinger
07-20-2012, 05:58
It's a shame that people take the lives of innocent people who mean no harm to others. Some of these I'm sure are teenagers and young adults being that Batman was being released this morning.
Geographically, that mall is a fairly short distance from Littleton, CO and Columbine HS - for such nice suburban areas - those areas sure have experienced more than their share of tragedies. Prayers out for families. I've been to both locations, albeit some time ago, damn.
Aurora, Colorado Movie Theater Shooting: 12 Dead
http://abcnews.go.com/US/mass-shooting-colorado-movie-theater-14-people-dead/story?id=16817842#.UAlLSXC7HJx
"A lone gunman burst into a movie theater in Aurora, Colo., at a midnight showing of the latest Batman film, "The Dark Knight Rises," and opened fire, killing at least 12 people and injuring at least 50, police said.
James Holmes, 24, of North Aurora, was apprehended at the scene clad in a bullet-proof vest and riot helmet. ................"
Destrier
07-20-2012, 06:37
Just does not appear to be enough sheepdogs left in America.
We need more citizens like Samuel Williams, 71, from Ocala. Remember the patron of the internet cafe that defended himself, and other innocents, against armed robbers.
IMO, it won't be long before the left politicizes this tragedy.
And what's a shame is that it is illegal in NC for a CCW to be carried into in a movie theater as you cannot carry due to having to pay to get in.
SUCKS!
Stargazer
07-20-2012, 07:30
Not a good day =( Thoughts and prayers go out to those whose lives have been forever changed because of a madman...
This senseless violence perpetrated on innocent people just makes my blood boil. :mad: I hope Mr. Holmes receives the death penalty for the lives he took. As a Christian, I am obliged to forgive him (easier for me to say as an observer), but may he be punished to the fullest extent of the law. Now, if someone in the theatre had been packing, this might have ended much quicker....:rolleyes:
My thoughts and prayers go out to all affected by this tragedy...
And what's a shame is that it is illegal in NC for a CCW to be carried into in a movie theater as you cannot carry due to having to pay to get in.
SUCKS!
I would suspect THAT law is simply a guideline...:rolleyes:
DIYPatriot
07-20-2012, 07:49
The youngest victim was 3 months old. My God how sad. Prayers to these families and LEOs and other 1st responders that have this memory to deal with for the rest of their lives.
On another note - Sheeple, wake up! As long as you keep disarming the sheepdogs, the wolves will have open season.
On another note - Sheeple, wake up! As long as you keep disarming the sheepdogs, the wolves will have open season.
Amen. That is exactly what these scumbags/terrorists like Mr. Holmes want...to go into a room full of innocent, unarmed people and open fire, knowing that they will likely cause a lot of death and suffering. They know they don't stand a chance against a heavily armed SWAT team or even regular Law Enforcement. Even someone who has a conceal and carry would jeopardize their plans...
greenberetTFS
07-20-2012, 08:02
This is incredibly sad,WTF is this country going?..........:( :( :(
Big Teddy :munchin
TOMAHAWK9521
07-20-2012, 08:36
The news out here is saying witnesses saw a guy in the front row get up to answer a phone call just as the movie started and walked out the fire exit door at the side of the theater. The same door was used by the shooter to enter the theater. Witnesses thought it odd that the guy didn't go to the lobby. They aren't sure if the guy on the phone was the shooter.
Just plain stupid. What a tragic loss of life.
IMO, it won't be long before the left politicizes this tragedy.
On Good Morning America (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/07/20/It-Begins-ABC-Ross-Stephanolpoulos-Point-to-Tea-Party-for-Dark-Knight-Shooting), ABC News' Brian Ross and George Stephanolpoulos suggested that the Tea Party might be connected to the mass shootings early this morning
and
New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0712/78756.html#ixzz21B0aIqEr), who has emerged as one of the nation’s highest-profile supporters of gun control, demanded on Friday that the presidential candidates “stand up and tell us what they’re going to do about” mass shootings.
How soon they forget...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCeqa65pxos&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Hats off to the trauma teams I just heard that when the hospital had news of a second victim arriving, all staff/trauma teams were at the hospital within 15 minutes.
Also heard there is one victim still in surgery, and a second that may have to go back. This from the hospital spokesperson (not sure of name/position).
Prayers out.
Terrible, just aweful.
Thoughts out to all those affected.
Made commo check with my friend in the AO, early this morning...
Holly:(
He is a nut, mentally off...but it does seem our present society somehow 'enables' these fruitcakes to envision this type of scenario.
We've had nuts forever but the 'look at me/I'll show you' mass murder deal is fairly recent.
He is a nut, mentally off...but it does seem our present society somehow 'enables' these fruitcakes to envision this type of scenario.
We've had nuts forever but the 'look at me/I'll show you' mass murder deal is fairly recent.
In our current society, instead of 72 virgins these nuts think that they get a date (or an MTV show) with "Snookie."
Fame and the quest for fame has polluted our society to such an extent - that it not lost on the mentally unstable.
This same quest for fame may drive our politicians and news agencies to make outlandish statements with respect to these murders.
<----- Checking in.
Crazy times out here. Yes, shades of Columbine. Lots of unarmed, inocent people gathered in a closed in area, supposidly safe.
Had comm with several of my friends involved last night (early this morning). Props out to them, but biggest props out to the Aurora 911 dispatch comm center. One of my friends who works there said it was absolutly crazy. Calls were just coming on, landline, cell phone, PD, FD and EMS nets. They did an awesome job trying to maintain some senmblence of order.
Aurora FD has released their audio from last night. .....
http://www.jems.com/video/news/audio-colorado-theater-shooting
Props out also to the ER staff at the three hospitals closest to the theater, Medical Center of Aurora (Aurora South), University Hsp, and Childern's Hsp. Pts arrived via ambulance, POV and PD. The last two just showed up, no advance call ins. They did an awesome job with their tirage of these Pts.
It's being reported that Mr. Holmes (the suspect) is a PhD student at CU Denver majoring in neuroscience. His apt is suppossedly "boobie-traped" with several explosive/chemical devices, so PD hasn't been able to gain access.
They have just released a pic of the suspect, James Holmes. (see below)
Wonder what it was to cause this guy to snap. He sure was mitotical in his actions(s), just as Harris and Kliebold were 13 years ago.
Again, crazy times and as I find out more from my friends, I'll pass it along.
Shawn
I would suspect THAT law is simply a guideline...:rolleyes:
Nope, It's a written LAW! Now if I'm goiing to a convention where I pay to get in but it's not open to the general public I'm OK. They key is that if you have to pay to get in and it's open to the general public, in NC you cannot carry (CCW). :confused:
blue02hd
07-20-2012, 10:27
And what's a shame is that it is illegal in NC for a CCW to be carried into in a movie theater as you cannot carry due to having to pay to get in.
SUCKS!
When has paying admission for entry ever been a constraint?
Nope, It's a written LAW! Now if I'm goiing to a convention where I pay to get in but it's not open to the general public I'm OK. They key is that if you have to pay to get in and it's open to the general public, in NC you cannot carry (CCW). :confused:
Plainly put....That law is stupid....IMHO
cat in the hat
07-20-2012, 10:34
And what's a shame is that it is illegal in NC for a CCW to be carried into in a movie theater as you cannot carry due to having to pay to get in.
SUCKS!
why is a shame is that Colorado has no such restriction and yet nobody was there to stop him
In our current society, instead of 72 virgins these nuts think that they get a date (or an MTV show) with "Snookie."
Fame and the quest for fame has polluted our society to such an extent - that it not lost on the mentally unstable.
Let's not insult the mentally unstable...seriously, who gives a shit why he did it, right?:(
He should fry...peroid.:mad:
JMHO,
Holly
Let's not insult the mentally unstable...seriously, who gives a shit why he did it, right?
He should fry...peroid.:mad:
JMHO,
Holly
OK, I thought it was fairly obvious from the context - the mentally unstable who commit these types of crimes. No offense intended.
Moreover, the point, that I must have done a poor job of communicating, was that the quest for fame is not lost on that segment of society, either.
Finally, some do give a shit - if he was not mentally competent to lawfully own a firearm - the distinction between the healthy and medically diagnosed as unhealthy may sometimes be lost on those who would call for the blanket ban on lawfully carrying firearms.
Back to the regularly scheduled programming.
The suspected "lone-wolf" shooter of the Batman movie theater massacre in Aurora, Colo., earlier today has been identified as Ph.D. student James Holmes, who recently withdrew from his neuroscience studies at the University of Colorado before shooting up "The Dark Knight Rises" screening.
Holmes, 24, moved to Aurora to pursue his Ph.D. at the University of Colorado medical center, living just blocks from the hospital in an apartment that is now laced with explosives and being searched by HazMat teams.
<snip>
AR-15 and 2 pistols.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/aurora-colo-batman-shooter-james-holmes-phd-student/story?id=16817842
OK, I thought it was fairly obvious from the context - the mentally unstable who commit these types of crimes. No offense intended.
Moreover, the point, that I must have done a poor job of communicating, was that the quest for fame is not lost on that segment of society, either.
Finally, some do give a shit - if he was not mentally competent to lawfully own a firearm - the distinction between the healthy and medically diagnosed as unhealthy may sometimes be lost on those who would call for the blanket ban on lawfully carrying firearms.
Back to the regularly scheduled programming.
What?, sir.
Holly
Last hard class
07-20-2012, 11:52
IMO, it won't be long before the left politicizes this tragedy.
Was posting this your way of beating them to the punch?
LHC
Was posting this your way of beating them to the punch?
LHC
No not really, but they are fairly predictable.
Sorry for the repost.
Latest update ....
Holmes had 4 weapons with him. An AR-15, Remington 870 Shotgun and a Glock-40, (there was also another Glock-40 found in his car).
He entered the theater from the fire exit (back door, where his car was parked), set off two devices which emitted smoke and some sort of chemical agent. He then fired off the shotgun into the air, and then began to fire the AR-15 into the crowd. Unknown on how many rounds were fired or how many Holmes still had on him when he was apprehended. PD is not releasing this numbers.
He was wearing a ballistic helmet, ballistic vest, ballistic leggings, throat protector, as well as a gas mask.
PD is confident he acted alone.
There are confirmed 12 killed and 59 wounded, some still in critical condition.
Some rounds did pass through the wall into an adjoining theater, wounding people in that theater.
ZonieDiver
07-20-2012, 12:39
No not really, but they are fairly predictable.
Sorry for the repost.
So are some of 'us'!
TOMAHAWK9521
07-20-2012, 12:39
Latest update ....
Holmes had 4 weapons with him. An AR-15, Remington H-70 Shotgun and a Glock-40, (there was also another Glock-40 found in his car).
He entered the theater from the fire exit (back door, where his car was parked), set off two devices which emitted smoke and some sort of chemical agent. He then fired off the shotgun into the air, and then began to fire the AR-15 into the crowd.
He was wearing a ballistic helmet, ballistic vest, ballistic leggings, throat protector, as well as a gas mask.
PD is confident he acted alone.
The guy's description sounds eerily like the main character in the low-budget mass-murderer movie "Rampage" from 2009.
So are some of 'us'!
So true dat !:D
The guy's description sounds eerily like the main character in the low-budget mass-murderer movie "Rampage" from 2009.
Interesting correlation.
Had it not been one of Aurora's PD stations was only a block and a half away, and PD arrived on scene MINUTES after the first 911 call, Homes may have been able to get away. He was apprehended, without a gunfight, outside the back door by his car. They are speculating he was about to drive away in to confusion. That he didn't take into account the rapid response (and numbers) of the PD.
This pic has already popped up on FB. Speaks volumes ......
IMO, it won't be long before the left politicizes this tragedy.
Sometimes the truth hurts. IMHO predicting it and being right in that predictoin, is vastly different from being the news anchor that actually attempts to make those connections while events are still unfolding.
Poor "Jim Holmes," who is 41 yo, and had absolutely no connection to any of this until today. Another victim by circumstance.
Basenshukai
07-20-2012, 13:07
The guy's description sounds eerily like the main character in the low-budget mass-murderer movie "Rampage" from 2009.
I thought the exact same thing. In fact, this SOB even looks a little like the character in that movie. I think that "Rampage" is still viewable on Netflix, if anyone is curious.
Sometimes the truth hurts. IMHO predicting it and being right in that predictoin, is vastly different from being the news anchor that actually attempts to make those connections while events are still unfolding.
Poor "Jim Holmes," who is 41 yo, and had absolutely no connection to any of this till today.
My casual observation early this a.m. was based to a great degree on how the press (the basically corrupt MSM) has responded in prior mass-shooting events.
Add to this easily observable behavior (the press and gun issues/shootings) - that this is an election year - plus the 24/7 news cycle and it seems to me to be fairly predictable.
KimuraFTW
07-20-2012, 13:13
They say the police were on the scene in 60-90 seconds. That's one heck of a response time! Considering there were still 71 victims though, that just further confirms the need to carry and be able to take your safety into your own hands. I've read that Colorado permits both open carry and is shall issue. Does anyone know if they are not allowed in theaters?
When has paying admission for entry ever been a constraint?
It's always been that way. :(
(a) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry any gun, rifle, or pistol into any assembly where a fee has been charged for admission thereto, or into any establishment in which alcoholic beverages are sold and consumed. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.
He was armored up with multiple weapons. Yet he gave up easily, wanted the attention but did want to survive it seems.
It's stated he entered through emergency exit doors those open one way yes, who opened the door for him and why. The news showed one witness stating an individual near him received a cell call then opened that door.
Destrier
07-20-2012, 13:27
Since we are talking about a Colorado incident, maybe we can avoid discussing NC law.
He was armored up with multiple weapons. Yet he gave up easily, wanted the attention but did want to survive it seems.
It's stated he entered through emergency exit doors those open one way yes, who opened the door for him and why. The news showed one witness stating an individual near him received a cell call then opened that door.
It's been reported that it was him that got up and walked out the door.
He was armored up with multiple weapons. Yet he gave up easily, wanted the attention but did want to survive it seems.
It's stated he entered through emergency exit doors those open one way yes, who opened the door for him and why. The news showed one witness stating an individual near him received a cell call then opened that door.
Aurora PD stated that Holmes had purchased a ticket, sat in the theater, watched about 10 minutes of the film, got up, walked out the fire exit, got his "gear" on and armed up, then re-entered the fire exit (which he propped opened as he left) and began the rampage.
I'm able to watch on of the local news stations live stream and get this "updates".
Edit To Add .... here is the link for the live stream I've been watching ......
http://media.thedenverchannel.com/livestreampage
Apparently Holmes had set up his apt. as a diversion.
Loud Music Used To Lure People To Booby-Trapped Apt.
'Techno Music' Played From Midnight To 1 A.M. At James Holmes' Apartment
Holmes started shooting at or about 0030 (12:30)
AURORA, Colo. -- A neighbor of the mass shooting suspect thinks the man, James Holmes, may have tried to lure someone into his booby-trapped apartment to create a diversion during the shooting spree.
The neighbor, Chris Rodriguez, told 7NEWS, he and his girlfriend started hearing loud techno music coming from above them at midnight.
"Usually the complex is very quiet, nobody has parties, so that was the first time we actually had a party or a lot of noise at the complex," said Rodriguez.
After about 15 minutes, Rodriguez's girlfriend decided to knock on the door and ask them to turn the music down.
"She went upstairs to the apartment, and she knocked on the door pretty hard, she knocked two or three times and yelled into the door, 'Hey, can you turn that music down, we are trying to sleep,'" said Rodriguez.
Rodriguez said that no one answered and his girlfriend didn't even hear any footsteps.
While she was listening at the door, she noticed that the door moved.
"The door moved a little bit, and the handle jiggled a little, and she was contemplating going into the apartment, but something told her don't do it," Rodriguez said.
Rodriguez said his girlfriend then went back to their apartment and called police.
Officers said they would try to send an officer out, but they weren't sure if they had anyone.
After 20 to 30 minutes, the music continued, so they called the non-emergency number for Aurora Police again.
"The dispatcher said, 'We're in a crisis right now, we really can't have any officers out at the moment,'" Rodriguez said.
At the time, Rodriguez didn't know about the mall shooting.
The couple went back to bed and the music stopped at 1 a.m.
At 2 a.m., Rodriquez said he heard a loud crash, then a knock on the door.
"It's the SWAT team there in full armor," Rodriguez said.
Officers escorted the couple and others out of the building.
"My theory is that what he did is he started the music up around midnight so somebody would go up to the apartment and open that door around 12:15," said Rodriquez.
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31290627/detail.html
"Aurora shooting victim Jessica Ghawi was tweeting just before her death; was present at mall shooting in Toronto six weeks ago"
http://twitchy.com/2012/07/20/aurora-victim-jessica-ghawi-was-tweeting-just-before-her-death/
What are the odds? :(
Pat
My casual observation early this a.m. was based to a great degree on how the press (the basically corrupt MSM) has responded in prior mass-shooting events.
Add to this easily observable behavior (the press and gun issues/shootings) - that this is an election year - plus the 24/7 news cycle and it seems to me to be fairly predictable.
There is an ongoing saying here on PS, graciously traught to me by AM...and others over the years....
If you were not there, then it is all armchair QB.....
Will save my opinions for when the real facts come out.
Holly
BigJimCalhoun
07-20-2012, 15:35
They say the police were on the scene in 60-90 seconds. That's one heck of a response time! Considering there were still 71 victims though, that just further confirms the need to carry and be able to take your safety into your own hands. I've read that Colorado permits both open carry and is shall issue. Does anyone know if they are not allowed in theaters?
Conceal Carry Not permitted in:
Federal Buildings
State /county were metal detectors are at all entrances
schools
private property posted as such.
I don't know if the theatre had a no weapons sign, often they have some code of conduct in a corner somewhere.
source
http://www.dcsheriff.net/Concealed_Handgun_Permits.html
The law is the same statewide for CCW
open carry is allowed except where it is not, and most cities prohibit open carry. Unless in the forest, best to assume OC is banned.
What?, sir.
Holly
My observations are relative to our current MTV/Realty TV culture that glorifies and perhaps encourages the pursuit of fame (perhaps more than in the past). Certainly, the Internet appears to contribute to this phenomena. Everyone seems in search of their 15 minutes. My observations were in limited response to post #22 (directly above my post) that basically identified the fact that we have always had violence but this very public call for attention (public mass murder) by young folks - seems like a fairly recent development - and it might be increasing in frequency.
Experts may or may not find a correlation.
My comments are expressly not an indictment of - nor an insult to - the mentally ill who have not committed mass murder.
My comments might be an insult to the MTV/Realty TV culture. So be it.
I hope that helps.
AngelsSix
07-20-2012, 16:04
And what's a shame is that it is illegal in NC for a CCW to be carried into in a movie theater as you cannot carry due to having to pay to get in.
SUCKS!
A friend of mine asked me yesterday if I was going to see that movie and I told them flat out, no. When they asked me why, I explained that theaters are dangerous and I wouldn't set foot in one. Now they know why....:(
There is an ongoing saying here on PS, graciously traught to me by AM...and others over the years....
If you were not there, then it is all armchair QB.....
Will save my opinions for when the real facts come out.
Holly
Re post # 52 - I was "there" - no, not Aurora, CO, but MY quote that you chose to highlight in post # 52 was MY explanation of MY OWN comments in posts # 8, 35, and 43.
I certainly did NOT armchair quarterback anything (except, right now, my own words that you took out of context) and some of the MSMs early reactions to the mass-shooting. Which they did.
Hope this clears things up.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. Go back and read the thread carefully and you should see the flow of discussion.
KimuraFTW
07-20-2012, 16:33
Conceal Carry Not permitted in:
Federal Buildings
State /county were metal detectors are at all entrances
schools
private property posted as such.
I don't know if the theatre had a no weapons sign, often they have some code of conduct in a corner somewhere.
source
http://www.dcsheriff.net/Concealed_Handgun_Permits.html
The law is the same statewide for CCW
open carry is allowed except where it is not, and most cities prohibit open carry. Unless in the forest, best to assume OC is banned.
Thanks. I live in Maryland and you basically have to know the Governor to get one here so I don't know all the details. :(
Re post # 52 - I was "there" - no, not Aurora, CO, but MY quote that you chose to highlight in post # 52 was MY explanation of MY OWN comments in posts # 8, 35, and 43.
I certainly did NOT armchair quarterback anything (except, right now, my own words that you took out of context) and some of the MSMs early reactions to the mass-shooting. Which they did.
Hope this clears things up.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. Go back and read the thread carefully and you should see the flow of discussion.
My observations are relative to our current MTV/Realty TV culture that glorifies and perhaps encourages the pursuit of fame (perhaps more than in the past). Certainly, the Internet appears to contribute to this phenomena. Everyone seems in search of their 15 minutes. My observations were in limited response to post #22 (directly above my post) that basically identified the fact that we have always had violence but this very public call for attention (public mass murder) by young folks - seems like a fairly recent development - and it might be increasing in frequency.
Experts may or may not find a correlation.
My comments are expressly not an indictment of - nor an insult to - the mentally ill who have not committed mass murder.
My comments might be an insult to the MTV/Realty TV culture. So be it.
I hope that helps.
WTF??? :(:rolleyes::confused:
Stand behind my Ambush Master quote!!!
Holly
'Tea Partier' Jim Holmes calls ABC tie-in on Batman shooting ‘blatantly lazy’
COLORADO SHOOTINGJULY 20, 2012BY: DAVID CODREA
Examiner
http://www.examiner.com/article/tea-partier-jim-holmes-calls-abc-tie-on-batman-shooting-blatantly-lazy?CID=examiner_alerts_article
Excerpt:
"With some rushing to judgment in the wake of the early Friday shootings at the opening of the third installment in the Batman trilogy, “The Dark Knight Rises,” at an Aurora, Colo., movie theater, a member of a Tea Party group who shares the same name as the shooter has responded with justified irritation to a report by Brian Ross of ABC News that “there is a Jim Holmes of Aurora, Colorado, page on the Colorado Tea party site, talking about him joining the Tea Party last year, as well.”
I'm surprised the media hasn't blamed it on Bush yet. Bringing up a TP member's name...really? That's some crack reporting right there.
RIP to those who were murdered, my prayers are with the families. Speedy recovery to those who were hurt.
I hope this SOB fries.
twistedsquid
07-20-2012, 18:21
15 dead now...prayers out...
KimuraFTW
07-20-2012, 19:02
Ak-47/AR15/M4 same thing :rolleyes:
All the local radio is talking about is 6k in ammo purchased on the internet and Hi-Cap Mags for the AR15.
Destrier
07-20-2012, 20:10
All the local radio is talking about is 6k in ammo purchased on the internet and Hi-Cap Mags for the AR15.
Well 6k 5.56 rounds only weighs about 180 pounds so I am sure he was planning on carrying it all during his assault. (sarcasm alert)
BigJimCalhoun
07-21-2012, 07:32
Sispey Street is reporting that theater is a posted "no carry zone"
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2012/07/lesson-of-colorado-ignore-victim.html
*SIGH* .... :rolleyes: Oh boy, looks as is the "Tin Foil Hat Wearing" crowd is already at it ..... :rolleyes: *SIGH*
Colorado Batman shooting shows obvious signs of being staged
Holmes was clearly provided with exotic gear
Continuing from CBS:
"He said pictures from inside the apartment are fairly disturbing and the devices look to be sophisticated, adding the booby-traps were 'something I've never seen.' One rifle, two handguns, a knife, a bullet proof vest, a ballistic helmet, a gas device, a gas mask, military SWAT clothing and unidentified explosives were also found in Holmes' car, a law enforcement source told CBS News. Oates said Holmes wore a gas mask, a ballistic helmet and vest as well as leg, groin and throat protectors during the shooting."
In other words, this guy was equipped with exotic gear by someone with connections to military equipment. SWAT clothing, explosives, complex booby-traps... c'mon, this isn't a "lone gunman." This is somebody who was selected for a mission, given equipment to carry it out, then somehow brainwashed into getting it done.
Snip
From here ........
http://www.naturalnews.com/036536_James_Holmes_shooting_false_flag.html
*SIGH* .... :rolleyes: Oh boy, looks as is the "Tin Foil Hat Wearing" crowd is already at it ..... :rolleyes: *SIGH*
Snip
From here ........
http://www.naturalnews.com/036536_James_Holmes_shooting_false_flag.html
I am betting Monday will be a banner day for the speculative news cycle.
KimuraFTW
07-21-2012, 12:07
Sispey Street is reporting that theater is a posted "no carry zone"
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2012/07/lesson-of-colorado-ignore-victim.html
Thanks for that. Protecting yourself is not only your right, but it's your responsibility. I can't understand how people can continue to call for more gun control when that's the reason this clown didn't get put down long before he could shoot 70+ people. :mad:
I'm waiting for the folks with an axe to grind regarding gun control to start using this. Michael Bloomberg sure didn't waste any time in that department. And the media adhered to the stereotype of automatically saying the guy had an AK-47 at first.
It has already begun. :rolleyes:
http://www.naturalnews.com/036536_James_Holmes_shooting_false_flag.html
In other words, this guy was equipped with exotic gear by someone with connections to military equipment. SWAT clothing, explosives, complex booby-traps... c'mon, this isn't a "lone gunman." This is somebody who was selected for a mission, given equipment to carry it out, then somehow brainwashed into getting it done.
Oh. My. God. What an idiot. Yeah, you can't buy anything like that anywhere. :rolleyes:
turboprop
07-21-2012, 13:14
Thanks for that. Protecting yourself is not only your right, but it's your responsibility. I can't understand how people can continue to call for more gun control when that's the reason this clown didn't get put down long before he could shoot 70+ people. :mad:
I don't advocate gun control, but this example doesn't support your idea. Unless of course you are going to carry a rifle with AP rounds and are faster or surprise the shooter. There is a reason why we have law enforcement teams that follow a military model, and unfortunately a citizen lawfully packing would probably do more harm than good getting into a gunfight with someone like this. If you start firing pistol rounds at a guy dressed like the Hollywood bank robbers in a place with people literally stacked on top of each other it probably won't end well.
I'm waiting for the folks with an axe to grind .
Let's see how the grinding is going..
Bloomberg jumps on the Gun Control band wagon ASAP.
Brian Ross and George Steponhispenis link Holmes to the Tea Party
Breitbart links Holmes to the Democratic Party
Piers Morgan thinks America needs to do something with it's gun laws.
The Reverend Jackson uttered gibberish.
Michael Moore spouts off to the NRA
The Examiner says Holmes maybe linked to OWS Black Bloc
False Flag Alex Jones mentions MK-Ultra, the UN Small Arms Treaty and this ROLL CALL RELEASE (http://info.publicintelligence.net/DHS-FBI-TheaterAttacks.pdf)
They are off and running.
There is a reason why we have law enforcement teams that follow a military model, and unfortunately a citizen lawfully packing would probably do more harm than good getting into a gunfight with someone like this. If you start firing pistol rounds at a guy dressed like the Hollywood bank robbers in a place with people literally stacked on top of each other it probably won't end well.
But when the Police are 5-10 minutes away...........Fight and you may die. Run and you will live at least awhile.
Awhile could be one step, 5 steps, 25 steps and if your lucky all the way to safety. I would rather have a fighting chance.
Mr. Holmes is a ferociously intelligent guy with a background in chemistry who went off the deep end.* At some yet to be determined level, he patterned his attack off of the Joker, a fictional character who is a ferociously intelligent guy with a background in chemistry who went off the deep end.
Had stricter gun control laws been in place, would Mr. Holmes have been deterred by his inability to purchase weapons and ammunition or would he have used his knowledge of chemistry to devise an alternate plan of attack?
Had fewer gun control laws been in place, would Mr. Holmes have been deterred by the prospect of facing movie-goers with firearms or would he have used his knowledge of chemistry to devise an alternate plan of attack?
FWIW, in Batman: The Dark Knight Returns (1986), the mini series that got the whole film franchise rolling, the Joker kills David Letterman and his entire studio audience without firing a shot.
_____________________________________________
* The course requirements for the undergraduate major in neuroscience at UC Riverside are available here (http://neuromajor.ucr.edu/courses.html).
mojaveman
07-21-2012, 14:16
It angers me somewhat everytime that this happens. Whenever these nutjobs have an inclination to do something like this I wish they would just shoot themselves and not a bunch of other innocent people. These incidents don't do well for the Second Amendment and all of the law abiding legal firearm owners.
Prayers out for all of the victims.
Mr. Holmes is a ferociously intelligent guy with a background in chemistry who went off the deep end.* At some yet to be determined level, he patterned his attack off of the Joker, a fictional character who is a ferociously intelligent guy with a background in chemistry who went off the deep end.
Had stricter gun control laws been in place, would Mr. Holmes have been deterred by his inability to purchase weapons and ammunition or would he have used his knowledge of chemistry to devise an alternate plan of attack?
Had fewer gun control laws been in place, would Mr. Holmes have been deterred by the prospect of facing movie-goers with firearms or would he have used his knowledge of chemistry to devise an alternate plan of attack?
Since we are talking hypotheticals, he would have used a large kitchen knife, and a 25lb. bar bell weight. He would have killed as many as he could have. He popped the smoke and tear gas, it was chaos from the start. It wouldn't have mattered if he brought a beer bottle with him and used that as a weapon. He was in killing mode. People were going to die, and did, according to his plan.
(Reuters) - Mexican President Felipe Calderon condemned U.S. gun laws as "mistaken" and urged Washington to review them after a shooter killed 12 people and injured more than 50 others at a U.S. movie theater on Friday.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/21/us-usa-shooting-mexico-idUSBRE86K0IL20120721
He needs to STFU and get back into his box. If we need an opinion out of Mexico we will give them one.
R3V3LATIONS
07-22-2012, 05:39
there is a cartel war all over northern mexico spilling into texas/ NM/ and American sovereign land, countless examples of corruption (police backed cartel killings?) in what is supposed to resemble a government, all his citizens try to hop the fence to live in the US and that idiot has the audacity to think he has advice for us? Maybe he should worry about his own country first....
MoveOn.Org's latest.
Richard :munchin
Tragedy in Colorado
We all woke up to the tragic news of the killing of at least 12 people and the wounding of many more at a late-night screening of the new Batman movie in Colorado.
Reports indicate that the disturbed individual who committed this horrifying act had a bulletproof vest, used some kind of gas canister, and had multiple guns when he opened fire in the crowded theater.1 A three-month-old is among the injured.2
We are immeasurably sad for those who lost their lives, those wounded, and their families—and for all those who experienced the horror of those terrible moments. Let our thoughts and prayers go out to them today.
We're also so angry. From children's lives lost in school shootings, to Trayvon Martin, the Representative Gabrielle Giffords attack, and this latest slaughter of innocents, we are not safe from gun violence.
Mayors Against Illegal Guns has been campaigning to put a stop to senseless gun violence like this with commonsense measures, like fixing gun checks to keep guns out of the hands of dangerous people. They've started a petition in SignOn.org to demand action on ending gun violence.
Sadly, it often takes moments like these to bring politicians to their senses about guns. And while signing a petition seems so inadequate in the face of what happened last night, it's important to do what we can. Today that means taking a small step toward preventing this kind of tragedy from happening again.
Sign the Mayors Against Illegal Guns petition to our leaders: "Join me in standing with the victims and families of the Aurora, Colorado shooting and pledge to end gun violence."
The people who died at the Colorado theater last night are only 12 of the 34 people statistics tell us will die from gun violence today—and among 19,000 murdered with guns since the attack on Representative Giffords in Tuscon.3
And yet today isn't about statistics. It's about the pain of human loss—the loss suffered by the community of Aurora, Colorado. And the losses to gun violence suffered today and every day by other communities, whose tragic stories won't be covered on the news.
It's in the power of Congress to greatly reduce these senseless shootings and make tragedies like today's far less possible. They can start by enacting commonsense measures, like fixing giant loopholes in gun checks, that are supported by the vast majority of Americans—including gun owners.4
Let our anger today help give them the courage to act tomorrow.
Sign the Mayors Against Illegal Guns petition to our leaders: "Join me in standing with the victims and families of the Aurora, Colorado shooting and pledge to end gun violence."
The strength and support we draw from our friends, families, and communities are never more important than on days like today.
What a crock. More people die on the US roads and highways than are murdered by guns. And we still have drivers licenses being issued. Where is the petition to remove cars from the country?
As for the gun deaths. The numbers are broken down, with the majority being sucicides, another large number being crime/drug related deaths (criminals shot by police, criminals shooting criminals, etc. ), and even less fall into homicides.
How about a petition to educate the public on the actual numbers, and how those are broken down?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year
32,885 auto deaths in 2010
ETA: Note the yearly downward trend from 2007, to 2009, to 2010 in firearm homicides.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state
However, the figures themselves are astounding for Brits used to around 600 murders per year. In 2010 - the latest year for which detailed statistics are available - there were 12,996 murders in the US. Of those, 8,775 were caused by firearms.
The FBI crime statistics are based on reports to FBI bureau and local law enforcement. The figures are not complete - there are no stats for Florida on firearm murders and the data for Illinois is "incomplete". But even so it provides a detailed picture of attacks by state.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm
Firearm homicides 2009
•Number of deaths: 11,493
•Deaths per 100,000 population: 3.7
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States
There were 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000.[4] The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides,[5] with 17,352 (55.6%) of the total 31,224 firearm-related deaths in 2007 due to suicide, while 12,632 (40.5%) were homicide deaths.[6]
ETA:http://www.tincher.to/deaths.htm (Note: Go to link if interested in the "Click Here.")
The best way to prevent gun deaths is to treat depression and other mental illness, teach children not to sell or use illegal drugs, treat drug addiction, and have police concentrate on enforcing drug laws. However, the gun control lobby says that we should spend billions of dollars on gun registration and gun licensing instead of using the money to treat depression and combat drugs. Click here for some sensible ways to prevent gun violence.
The accidental gun death rate has been falling since 1930 and US accidental gun deaths per year were down to 613 by 2007, out of the 301,579,895 people in the USA, according to the CDC. For comparison, there were 29,846 accidental deaths by poisoning in 2007, again according to the CDC. Note that it is extremely easy to prevent accidental gun deaths by following Jeff Cooper's Four Rules Of Gun Safety. Click here for a free downloadable brochure that illustrates the four rules.
(Reuters) - Mexican President Felipe Calderon condemned U.S. gun laws as "mistaken" and urged Washington to review them after a shooter killed 12 people and injured more than 50 others at a U.S. movie theater on Friday.
Of course he's going to say something like this ..... he's just looking out for his people/countrymen, a majority of which are here in Colorado. :rolleyes:
Maybe they should look at these numbers as well:
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
Since the outset of the Texas right-to-carry law, the Texas murder rate has averaged 30% lower than it was before the law took effect, while the U.S. murder rate has averaged 28% lower.[115]
Colorado has a sq mileage of 104,093, and had 94 firearm homicides in 2009.
http://stephenewright.com/fromthebluff/2010/12/13/some-interesting-statistics-on-murders-committed-with-guns-by-state/
While Colorado (pop. ~5,100,000), population wise was at about .00002%. in 2009. Looking for data on 2010 for Colorado, and will update if I find any, but basically I don't expect the numbers to change all that much.
Edited to remove mistaken data.
Paragrouper
07-22-2012, 15:33
Since the outset of the Texas right-to-carry law, the Texas murder rate has averaged 30% lower than it was before the law took effect, while the U.S. murder rate has averaged 28% lower.[115]
I read an article recently from the Houston Chronicle (before you say anything, I know) expressiing a concern that Texas justifiable homicides rise with 'Castle Doctrine.' I find it disappointing they did not feel it necessary to mention the cooresponding drop in homicides.
Link (http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Killings-deemed-justified-are-on-the-rise-in-Texas-3676412.php#page-1)
Maybe they should look at these numbers as well:
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
The 2010 report issued by The Guardian in the UK reveals 600 firearm deaths in the UK, which has a square mileage of 94,525. (Reference post #80) And they are astounded at our numbers.
Colorado has a sq mileage of 104,093, and had 94 firearm homicides in 2009.
http://stephenewright.com/fromthebluff/2010/12/13/some-interesting-statistics-on-murders-committed-with-guns-by-state/
Population wise, the UK (pop. ~64,600,000) in 2010 was at about .0001% murder by fireams (based on the 600 statistic given by The Guardian) in 2010.
While Colorado (pop. ~5,100,000), population wise was at about .00002%. in 2009. Looking for data on 2010 for Colorado, and will update if I find any, but basically I don't expect the numbers to change all that much.
Edited for clarity.
Since firearms are not nearly as readily available as knives, the UK numbers that I browsed involved fatal stabbing or knife murder. Those appeared to largely emphasize London and not the entire UK (Ireland, Scotland, Wales). I also found many of the UK numbers to be outdated and difficult to nail down a solid number. The road blocks were how they segregate the stats for example 'capital in the 2010-2011 financial year' and 'Teen Stabbings'.
On one report the Guardian even notes:
Unlike gunshot victims, hospitals don't have to report knife related crime. So, the figures below may not paint the complete picture of knife crime across London as they don't account for unreported incidents. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/datablog/2012/apr/12/london-knife-crime)
Another dated 2008 report stated:
Almost 130,000 attacks involved knives last year - equivalent to one every four minutes - according to the annual British Crime Survey. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1036154/A-knife-attack-4-minutes-130-000-year--ministers-insist-crime-rates-falling.html)
While I didn't feel I could nail down murder by knife, overall violence with knives in the UK appears to be substantial and it exceed gun violence.
tom kelly
07-22-2012, 16:24
First: Sorry for the Victims & their familie's and friends. However the use of a firearm to kill inocent people is a crime, and when a firearm is is used it ignites the anti-gun ultra left liberals to call for more restrivtive gun laws. They know that more restrictive laws will not stop the "gun violence" The way of life in The USA today is react to the problem and not the underlstanding of the basic causes that result in this type of behavior. FAMILY & SOCIETY'S VALUES or the lack of them are at the root causes of criminal behavior. Whatever James Holmes was thinking of during the planning of this crime we may never know. May-be we should be thankful he was studying Neuroscience and not NUCLEAR science...TK
How unfortunate that some want to use this tragedy to further a political platform. The guns didn't kill people... the crazy gun dressed up like the Joker in riot gear killed people. He was perfectly capable of taking out more (without guns) with the rig he had set up in his apartment.
My prayers are with those involved.
Since firearms are not nearly as readily available as knives, the UK numbers that I browsed involved fatal stabbing or knife murder. Those appeared to largely emphasize London and not the entire UK (Ireland, Scotland, Wales). I also found many of the UK numbers to be outdated and difficult to nail down a solid number. The road blocks were how they segregate the stats for example 'capital in the 2010-2011 financial year' and 'Teen Stabbings'...
...
While I didn't feel I could nail down murder by knife, overall violence with knives in the UK appears to be substantial and it exceed gun violence.
Thanks for pointing that out, Paslode. I edited my post above to remove that data, which I misinterpreted.
Firstly, my thoughts and prayers are with the families, friends and all of you who're hurting from this. I've read a lot of these posts, and I think it's sad for the US that the debate always goes to the extremes immediately.
I'll just say this (and yup, I know exactly what's coming my way - see above re: the extremes): societies that cannot handle the responsibility of firearms shouldn't have them freely available. Think about it. YOU can handle it, THEY can't - what are you prepared to live with so that YOU can have any gun you want any way you want? That goes for the place I live too - too many mass shootings before strict gun-laws were brought in. Today in Aus, you CAN own a gun, you just can't carry it around with you in the street. You CAN shoot at the range, you CAN hunt, that's it.
Nothing wrong with licensing and b/round checks and not being able to purchase f/arms and ammunition over the web IMO. You guys will all survive, trust me. At least give a gun-store worker the opportunity to see a face, hear a voice and make a call about whether to report someone to the authorities because he comes across as a whack-job.
Finally, to all of those "wish there were armed people at xx mass shooting" people: three separate shootings in Melbourne over the years where unarmed people stopped a shooter who intended mass murder:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monash_University_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Trobe_University_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_James_Knight
Unapologetic Soldier
07-23-2012, 07:42
The suspect, James Holmes needs to be made an example of. A clear message needs to be sent to any would be shooters of unarmed civilians in our Country. James Holmes should be put on a stage inside a world arena (such as a NFL stadium) viewed by his fellow countrymen and women. The event would be covered by television, radio and internet broadcasting. With every family and friend of the deceased or injured standing in line to get their 30 seconds with him.
I have a feeling if we stopped being so politically correct and started treating the pigs who comment these vile crimes with the same respect and dignity that they treated their victims; we would have a lot less of them so eager to cause undue harm to others.
GratefulCitizen
07-23-2012, 07:47
I will not speak nor write the name of the shooter.
In time, he can be referred to simply as "murderer" and by a DOC number.
Let him be tried, punished, and forgotten.
Rather than focus on the shooter let us shine a light on a few heroes.
I'll raise a glass tonight to 3 of them: Jon Blunk, Matt McQuinn and Alex Teves.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/aurora-shooting-died-bullets-sweeties-article-1.1119395
Rest in peace, heroes.
DIYPatriot
07-23-2012, 08:32
I will not speak nor write the name of the shooter.
In time, he can be referred to simply as "murderer" and by a DOC number.
Let him be tried, punished, and forgotten.
Rather than focus on the shooter let us shine a light on a few heroes.
I'll raise a glass tonight to 3 of them: Jon Blunk, Matt McQuinn and Alex Teves.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/aurora-shooting-died-bullets-sweeties-article-1.1119395
Rest in peace, heroes.
Thank you for posting this. As I read that article my blood boiled and not just because I'm enraged by the murderer, but because America lost good people - people that are not afraid to face the wolf in order to protect the flock even when the outcome means they must sacrifice their own life. Tonight, I'll raise a glass with you - to the heroes! Jon Blunk, Matt McQuinn and Alex Teves! Greater love hath no man...
Firstly, my thoughts and prayers are with the families, friends and all of you who're hurting from this. I've read a lot of these posts, and I think it's sad for the US that the debate always goes to the extremes immediately.
I'll just say this (and yup, I know exactly what's coming my way - see above re: the extremes): societies that cannot handle the responsibility of firearms shouldn't have them freely available. Think about it. YOU can handle it, THEY can't - what are you prepared to live with so that YOU can have any gun you want any way you want? That goes for the place I live too - too many mass shootings before strict gun-laws were brought in. Today in Aus, you CAN own a gun, you just can't carry it around with you in the street. You CAN shoot at the range, you CAN hunt, that's it.
Nothing wrong with licensing and b/round checks and not being able to purchase f/arms and ammunition over the web IMO. You guys will all survive, trust me. At least give a gun-store worker the opportunity to see a face, hear a voice and make a call about whether to report someone to the authorities because he comes across as a whack-job.
Finally, to all of those "wish there were armed people at xx mass shooting" people: three separate shootings in Melbourne over the years where unarmed people stopped a shooter who intended mass murder:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monash_University_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Trobe_University_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_James_Knight
Remember though, there has never been a gun in the history of firearms that has killed another human. If someone wants to kill, they will find a way.
Some people can't handle liqour or beer, either. Yet that is not outlawed. Prohibition has been tried in the past, and is being tried now with narcotics. That never stopped anyone. If you have ever watched an episode of the American show "COPS" every now and then they bust felons with firearms. This is an automatic return to prison for them. They know the risk and do it anyways.
There are strict opponents to gun control here in the US. I for one am glad for that. I have said it here before. I do not own any firearms, however I am glad that others may own them, and may carry if they choose. And I am aware that an individual may do so legally or illeagaly.
BigJimCalhoun
07-23-2012, 09:18
Nothing wrong with licensing and b/round checks and not being able to purchase f/arms and ammunition over the web IMO. You guys will all survive, trust me. At least give a gun-store worker the opportunity to see a face, hear a voice and make a call about whether to report someone to the authorities because he comes across as a whack-job.
Finally, to all of those "wish there were armed people at xx mass shooting" people: three separate shootings in Melbourne over the years where unarmed people stopped a shooter who intended mass murder:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monash_University_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Trobe_University_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_James_Knight
I think you are misunderstanding how our laws work. You cannot purchase a gun from the Internet and have it delivered to your home. The firearm must be sent to a gun dealer who runs the background check.
What is the purpose of registration and licensing? Many might think that is to they can be confiscated later.
If I were to attempt to stop an active shooter, I would rather be armed. I don't have the training that many here have, but I would rather have a firearm than a set of keys, some pepper spray or some "conflict negotiation skills"
BTW, the most unsafe I have ever felt was in Perth earlier this year.
Firstly, my thoughts and prayers are with the families, friends and all of you who're hurting from this. I've read a lot of these posts, and I think it's sad for the US that the debate always goes to the extremes immediately.
I'll just say this (and yup, I know exactly what's coming my way - see above re: the extremes): societies that cannot handle the responsibility of firearms shouldn't have them freely available. Think about it. YOU can handle it, THEY can't - what are you prepared to live with so that YOU can have any gun you want any way you want? That goes for the place I live too - too many mass shootings before strict gun-laws were brought in. Today in Aus, you CAN own a gun, you just can't carry it around with you in the street. You CAN shoot at the range, you CAN hunt, that's it.
Nothing wrong with licensing and b/round checks and not being able to purchase f/arms and ammunition over the web IMO. You guys will all survive, trust me. At least give a gun-store worker the opportunity to see a face, hear a voice and make a call about whether to report someone to the authorities because he comes across as a whack-job.
Finally, to all of those "wish there were armed people at xx mass shooting" people: three separate shootings in Melbourne over the years where unarmed people stopped a shooter who intended mass murder:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monash_University_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Trobe_University_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_James_Knight
So because the few and I mean very few people who have ever committed mass murder with a firearm or even murdered anyone with a firearm in this country chose to break the law, we should take away the rights of the overwhelming majority of people who have not and would not commit such acts?
If I own a gun what does it matter how I purchase ammunition? Should the government track and control how much ammunition I am allowed to purchase?
While you can purchase a firearm over the internet it still has to go to a local gun store before you can take it home. They don't just ship it to your house.
The only advantage of this is you can find better deals online than whats always in your LGS.
So whats the big deal?
No offense but who are you to tell me I should have to walk around unarmed and hope that I can manage to take down an armed assailant unarmed.
If you and your country were willing to lay down your protection and your rights good luck to you. But don't ask or expect me to do the same.
He needs to STFU and get back into his box. If we need an opinion out of Mexico we will give them one.
No shit, I completely agree. If we wanted his opinion we would have asked for it. He should be worrying about the fucking drugs being pushed into the US from Mexico instead...
Also, I think it is absolutely lame that even government officials are using twitter or facebook to discuss events or send condolences rather than picking up the phone and calling the president or whoever it may be directly. This is how bad our society is getting?? wow...
So because the few and I mean very few people who have ever committed mass murder with a firearm or even murdered anyone with a firearm in this country chose to break the law, we should take away the rights of the overwhelming majority of people who have not and would not commit such acts?
...
Kind of reminds me of one of the SEAL mottos, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
Or in this case the rights of the many outweigh the whimsical psychotic outbursts of the few.
The SEALs are only stealing from a movie charcter who was paraphrasing.
"It is the greatest good to the greatest number of people which is the measure of right and wrong." - Jeremy Bentham
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."**
Mr. Spock, 'The Wrath of Khan'
** "Or the one." - James T. Kirk
;)
I was thinking they probably stole it from the QPs! But that's okay. I know the SEALs don't mind a bit of thievery to get the job done. :cool:
The fact remains undisputed that many lives could have been saved if somebody with a CCW was there to pop that loon.
Badger52
07-23-2012, 10:27
Feinstein's latest:
“We’ve got to sit down and really come to grips on what is sold to average citizens.” (emphasis mine)
SoldierForGod
07-23-2012, 14:51
The sad part of this is, when this nut gassed the place, half the kids in there thought it was the movie special effects.
Targeting.....
While pro and anti CC Permit people argue back and forth lets remember Targeting.
In just about all cases where somebody whips it out and starts shooting they do it in a place that does not allow those with permits to carry.
More liberal carry policies and more people with permits and weapons would by itself cut down on opportunity for these punks. Would he have done it if he knew there was a good chance 5% - 10% of the people sitting in there were armed?
The Reaper
07-23-2012, 17:55
Fox had a former NYC cop on this morning who was a complete idiot.
He kept referring to the AR-15 as an automatic weapon and left the impression that the guns were purchased over the internet.
There are a lot of ways to cause significantly more casualties in no more time in such an environment. No point in mentioning any of them.
As far as the firearms go, an AR-15 is a semi-automatic rifle. Nothing special about it, though it looks "evil" to some people. It has a mag, as do most weapons beginning more than 100 years ago. He had a Remington 870, which is a magazine-fed hunting shotgun, and a Glock pistol, which is a normal semi-auto pistol. It is notable for being reliable, and relatively inexpensive ($500 or so).
You can own an M-16 assault rifle (full-auto) in some states. The scumbag in question would probably not have qualified to own one. You would have to have at least $15,000 to buy the weapon, find a willing seller, pay $200 for a tax stamp, get your application signed by your local sheriff, wait 6-9 months for approval, and then you can complete the forms and take the item home. Everyone I know with Class III / NFA items keeps them in a safe and are pretty much exemplary citizens. The legally held NFA items are too valuable for most criminals. Since the NFA registry started in 1934, only one registered automatic weapon is known to have been used in a crime, and the owner was a police officer.
Guns cannot be purchased and shipped to individuals, except by the federal government.
Firearms sales require a BATF Form 4473, proper photo ID, and a background check. You have to complete the form and sign it in person.
Unless you are an illegal alien. The BATF just issued new forms removing the requirement that you present ID and be a legal resident for 90 days or more.
No one can buy firearms for other people who cannot legally possess them. Except for the BATF.
You can buy ammo on the phone or the internet, and have it delivered. He bought a lot of it. Big deal. The ammo he expended at the scene would have fit in his pocket. Thr remainder at his home is irrelevant. You do have to have a photo ID, unlike our elections, and sign a statement that you are not prohibited from purchasing ammo. Or you can just go to the local Wal-Mart and buy all you like.
For those who are unsure, as was the misinformed idiot on Fox, the Second Amendment isn't about duck hunting. It is about the citizens' rights to form an armed militia, to protect themselves, and to forcibly remove oppressive governments.
I would love to point out to him that while, as the talking head noted, the founding fathers had no concept of rapid fire, magazine-fed firearms, the militiaman WERE REQUIRED to own military type weapons and they also held their own artillery. Attempts by the Brits to disarm the colonists led to the Revolutionary War. And I really doubt that the authors of the Bill of Rights had any concept of the television said head was appearing on, but that does not negate the First Amendment either.
I wish an armed citizen had terminated this scumbag's attempt before he fired the first round, but unfortunately, as I understand it, the theater was posted "No Guns" and it would appear that the rest of the patrons were law-abiding.
Now we (and more importantly the victims and their families) have to endure the murdering idiot grinning at us from the TV screen for the next six months.
Tragic. He should have been tried away from the media, his name never repeated, his face never shown, and his sentence carried out in a swift and effective manner. Now he has all of the notoriety he desired.
Prayers out to the families. RIP to the victims.
TR
Streck-Fu
07-23-2012, 18:58
Now he has all of the notoriety he desired.
And this is what will drive the next similarly motivated individual and the media, in the name of ratings and D.A.s seeking reelection attention will keep this on the front page for a year.
I wish an armed citizen had terminated this scumbag's attempt before he fired the first round, but unfortunately, as I understand it, the theater was posted "No Guns" and it would appear that the rest of the patrons were law-abiding.
TR
Hmmm,
Now I'm wondering if we couldn't see some law suits in the future against the theater. I mean they violated the patrons civil rights by telling them they couldn't protect themselves from someone like this.
I'd need to look at the gun laws of that state though.
GratefulCitizen
07-23-2012, 20:46
Hmmm,
Now I'm wondering if we couldn't see some law suits in the future against the theater. I mean they violated the patrons civil rights by telling them they couldn't protect themselves from someone like this.
I'd need to look at the gun laws of that state though.
Carrying on private property with a "no guns" sign doesn't appear to be a violation of carry laws.
It might be considered trespassing.
Seems to be addressed in C.R.S. 18-12-214 (5).
C.R.S. Title 18 Article 12 Part 2
18-12-214. Authority granted by permit - carrying restrictions
(1) (a) A permit to carry a concealed handgun authorizes the permittee to carry a concealed handgun in all areas of the state, except as specifically limited in this section. A permit does not authorize the permittee to use a handgun in a manner that would violate a provision of state law. A local government does not have authority to adopt or enforce an ordinance or resolution that would conflict with any provision of this part 2.
(b) A peace officer may temporarily disarm a permittee, incident to a lawful stop of the permittee. The peace officer shall return the handgun to the permittee prior to discharging the permittee from the scene.
(2) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun into a place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law.
(3) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun onto the real property, or into any improvements erected thereon, of a public elementary, middle, junior high, or high school; except that:
(a) A permittee may have a handgun on the real property of the public school so long as the handgun remains in his or her vehicle and, if the permittee is not in the vehicle, the handgun is in a compartment within the vehicle and the vehicle is locked;
(b) A permittee who is employed or retained by contract by a school district as a school security officer may carry a concealed handgun onto the real property, or into any improvement erected thereon, of a public elementary, middle, junior high, or high school while the permittee is on duty;
(c) A permittee may carry a concealed handgun on undeveloped real property owned by a school district that is used for hunting or other shooting sports.
(4) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun into a public building at which:
(a) Security personnel and electronic weapons screening devices are permanently in place at each entrance to the building;
(b) Security personnel electronically screen each person who enters the building to determine whether the person is carrying a weapon of any kind; and
(c) Security personnel require each person who is carrying a weapon of any kind to leave the weapon in possession of security personnel while the person is in the building.
(5) Nothing in this part 2 shall be construed to limit, restrict, or prohibit in any manner the existing rights of a private property owner, private tenant, private employer, or private business entity.
(6) The provisions of this section apply to temporary emergency permits issued pursuant to section 18-12-209.
So then why dont we send our troops to war without firearms if people with firearms bent on killing folks can be taken down by unarmed people?
Let me clarify; I carry a gun for work. Have carried since 1990. I have no problem with guns. I've gone through all the psych tests, agency tests etc etc and qual monthly with it for my role. To me the issue is if absolutely anyone can get almost any gun anytime, then that opens up the potential for disaster as happens time and again.
I think you are misunderstanding how our laws work. You cannot purchase a gun from the Internet and have it delivered to your home. The firearm must be sent to a gun dealer who runs the background check.
What is the purpose of registration and licensing? Many might think that is to they can be confiscated later.
If I were to attempt to stop an active shooter, I would rather be armed. I don't have the training that many here have, but I would rather have a firearm than a set of keys, some pepper spray or some "conflict negotiation skills"
BTW, the most unsafe I have ever felt was in Perth earlier this year.
Thanks for the clarification Jim! Of course you would rather be armed to stop an active shooter, me too!! I was just pointing out that a bunch of people with no training have done so. I'm interested to know what happened in Perth, feel free to PM me.
GratefulCitizen
07-23-2012, 20:53
Let me clarify; I carry a gun for work. Have carried since 1990. I have no problem with guns. I've gone through all the psych tests, agency tests etc etc and qual monthly with it for my role. To me the issue is if absolutely anyone can get almost any gun anytime, then that opens up the potential for disaster as happens time and again.
The genie is already out of the bottle.
The guns are out there (well over 200 million in the USA) and they will never be fully controlled.
Gun laws will only disarm the law abiding.
This supposed "solution" is just like the mice trying to bell the cat.
ZonieDiver
07-23-2012, 20:58
Tons of illegal drugs flow across our borders each year.
If guns are illegal, the same will happen.
I don't want to get too far into the weeds but maybe you should look at some facts about Australian violent crimes before you jump on the ban wagon.
AUSTRALIA: MORE VIOLENT CRIME DESPITE GUN BAN
It is a common fantasy that gun bans make society safer. In 2002 -- five years after enacting its gun ban -- the Australian Bureau of Criminology acknowledged there is no correlation between gun control and the use of firearms in violent crime. In fact, the percent of murders committed with a firearm was the highest it had ever been in 2006 (16.3 percent), says the D.C. Examiner.
Even Australia's Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime:
In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.
Moreover, Australia and the United States -- where no gun-ban exists -- both experienced similar decreases in murder rates:
Between 1995 and 2007, Australia saw a 31.9 percent decrease; without a gun ban, America's rate dropped 31.7 percent.
During the same time period, all other violent crime indices increased in Australia: assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.
At the same time, U.S. violent crime decreased 31.8 percent: rape dropped 19.2 percent; robbery decreased 33.2 percent; aggravated assault dropped 32.2 percent.
Australian women are now raped over three times as often as American women.
While this doesn't prove that more guns would impact crime rates, it does prove that gun control is a flawed policy. Furthermore, this highlights the most important point: gun banners promote failed policy regardless of the consequences to the people who must live with them, says the Examiner.
Source: Howard Nemerov, "Australia experiencing more violent crime despite gun ban," D.C. Examiner, April 8, 2009.
Source:
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847
It's a couple of years old but you get the idea.
The Reaper
07-23-2012, 21:15
To me the issue is if absolutely anyone can get almost any gun anytime, then that opens up the potential for disaster as happens time and again.
Explain to me how that has happened? Any gun, any time? Have you much experience in buying firearms in the US?
BTW, laws restricting rights and providing arms only to certain classes of people was how the Ku Klux Klan successfully oppressed black Americans for many years. Letting one class of people decide who can and cannot be armed smacks a bit too much of "1984" to me. Some animals will then be more equal than others.
Incidentally, firearms deaths in the US are at historical lows, except curiously for the cities and states with the most restrictive laws. The media just covers them non-stop now as part of their agenda.
TR
Now we (and more importantly the victims and their families) have to endure the murdering idiot grinning at us from the TV screen for the next six months.
Tragic. He should have been tried away from the media, his name never repeated, his face never shown, and his sentence carried out in a swift and effective manner. Now he has all of the notoriety he desired.
Prayers out to the families. RIP to the victims.
TR
I could not have said it better. Mr. Holmes obviously craves the spotlight and is undoubtedly relishing the attention currently being bestowed upon him by the media. Unfortunately, a large segment of the press seems to be playing right into his hands in this regard. His actions and behavior could be the result of a psychological ailment, though IMO that certainly would not make him any less culpable for it.
If it were up to me, he would've have been quietly taken to the gallows on Friday night and administered earthly justice, his name never to be spoken of again and his corpse turned over to his family for burial. It's probably a good thing, therefore, that it's not up to me...
This is a case of where it should be a SPEEDY trial.
Tons of witnesses, so there is no doubt that he is guilty.
Yea, we'll have to go through months of psychological examinations to see if he's nuts. He was sane enough to go to college, purchase firearms, learn how to make explosive devises and booby traps, and plan everything.
It take a pretty dedicated individual to plan and do what he did. Even if he is unstable it doesn't negate that fact that he meticulously plotted and carried out the murders of quite a few individuals. He fully understands what he did.
I say: Just take him out back and put a bullet in his head.
Badger52
07-24-2012, 06:35
To me the issue is if absolutely anyone can get almost any gun anytime, then that opens up the potential for disaster as happens time and again.Attempts to legislate human behavior have not been successful.
:rolleyes:
Would it not be very interesting to find that the AR used was one of the ones that 'walked'. :confused:
Furthermore, I seem to remember a few terrorists armed with nothing but box cutters inflicting far greater damage.
I in no way intend to minimize the loss of life and great deal of pain that this murderer has caused.
In the land of the un-armed, even the one armed man is king....
Attempts to legislate human behavior have not been successful.
:rolleyes:
Bats, Knives, Hachets, Pencils, Scissors, Sawalls, Soda Pop, Candy.......there is no end what the TPTB can try to save us from.
“I don’t understand why the police officers across this country don’t stand up collectively and say we’re going to go on strike” – Michael Bloomberg
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2012/07/24/pmt-bloomberg-police.cnn
That might not be a bad idea, it could free up the jails and the court system, and it might make people think about how they are going to protect themselves now that the false security blanket is on strike. . But I doubt it would happen because of the revenue stream it generates.
Destrier
07-24-2012, 06:58
Actually, Ruth Bader Ginsberg expressed that a fully automatic assault rifle (the modern arm of the military today) is more likely to be protected by the 2nd Amendment than the pistol, of which only officers had at the time of the Constitution. Go figure.
Taxation is legislation.
Something could be taxed to relative death.
IMO, we need to be particularly vigilant regarding proposed tax/fee increases (minor though they may seem at the outset) to most all components of the firearms industry.
This was in the Sunday DMN - if accurate, it would've been a tough "shoot out" to have in a sold-out movie theater with an armed and armored shooter like this.
IMO - the best opportunity for stopping this guy under the circumstances would've been an immediate tackle and dog-pile by people seated directly in front of him when he first came into the theater. Once he began shooting, though...:eek:
An ugly situation offering more 'ammo' for any number of political agendas and a sad ending. :(
Richard :munchin
Destrier
07-24-2012, 08:14
In either response it requires people that move toward the sound of gunfire.
This was in the Sunday DMN - if accurate, it would've been a tough "shoot out" to have in a sold-out movie theater with an armed and armored shooter like this.
IMO - the best opportunity for stopping this guy under the circumstances would've been an immediate tackle and dog-pile by people seated directly in front of him when he first came into the theater. Once he began shooting, though...:eek:
An ugly situation offering more 'ammo' for any number of political agendas and a sad ending. :(
Richard :munchin
QP Richard,
Correct me if I am wrong, AFAIK, most tactical vests are just that, tactical vests. Unless this one had plate carriers and the shooter used said plates, or was wearing a bullet proof vest underneath, wouldn't a center mass shot or two have ended this?
KimuraFTW
07-24-2012, 10:38
QP Richard,
Correct me if I am wrong, AFAIK, most tactical vests are just that, tactical vests. Unless this one had plate carriers and the shooter used said plates, or was wearing a bullet proof vest underneath, wouldn't a center mass shot or two have ended this?
Only from what I've heard/read (and who knows how accurate that might be since his AK-47 magically transformed into an AR-15), but it seems the tactical vest he was wearing wasn't bullet resistant and really offered no ballistic protection. I guess it was just being used to hold/carry ammo maybe? Still, it seems like a strange area to neglect considering the other items he supposedly possessed...
miclo18d
07-24-2012, 11:07
These are the exact thoughts that I had. Why didn't someone tackle him. I actually got the answer from my wife...
... We are trained for it. She believes we (SOF) have a totally different mind set than the sheep. I for one while in A-Stan, in the back of my mind, prayed that I would get it in a shoot out as opposed to an IED, because at least I would have a fighting chance. I think the same about these types of shootings, If I'm going to take a bullet, I want to take it with my hands around the person's throat. I also think that has to be in your head BEFORE you are in these situations. The combat mentality.
I also think there is something more than the training that many soldiers, many cops, and most special ops guys have... hyper vigilance. I think it is something you have or don't have. When you go to a restaurant you sit in the corner near an exit facing the door so you can see everyone that enters. I would say it's a high value of your life.
Now I'm not saying that I, or anyone here, could have made a difference in this shooting or ones that are similar, but you don't know. I carry concealed with my states permission in public and when my wife and I go to the movies I am armed. Because I think that these guys live around every movie theater? No. Because it is my right to self-protect myself and my family from any and ALL threats. To the point that my wife knows to get my gun in the event that I go down (until I can get her CCW).
I feel I could have reacted and got to cover and perhaps ambushed the guy as he came up the rows (having only a pistol vs shotgun and AR). Could I have shot in a crowded theater with people running for their lives? Depends. At a minimum someone with a gun could have knocked him down or hurt him and an excellent marksman with training could have shot at his face. He may have retreated with someone opposing him.
I usually sit in the higher sections near the middle, I would have been trapped up there in a crowded theater. Could I make a 25 yd head shot with my .45 officers model (3.5in bbl), with people running for cover and adrenalin pumping? He did have all the advantages of surprise, stealth, and initiated with violence of action. Would I have noticed him as a threat when he came in? Hard to say. Glad I wasn't there.
I also don't go to midnight movies or premiers, just like I don't drive around in drug areas of my city. I avoid areas with large crowds and controversial parties, that could draw anarchists, militia types, gang members, drunks or terrorists. Whenever I am around these types of things I snap back into hyper vigilance and start scanning, looking for crazy eyes, looking for cover, and escape plans. This is all unseen by my family.
Many of us from SF have taken the Anti-Terrorism and similar courses about making yourself a tiger vice a lamb... hard to get at vice an easy mark. These are the things that most Americans just don't think about from day-to-day. After all they are protected by the police....right?
"When seconds count the cops are only minutes away"
Wonder what he did with the Grant Money?
James Holmes Received $26K Grant From Bethesda-Based National Institutes of Health
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2012/07/24/james-holmes-received-26k-grant-from-bethesda-based-national-institutes-of-health/
"............WNEW News reports that Holmes was awarded a prestigious grant from the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland. NIH is part of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.
It gave the graduate student a $26,000 stipend and paid his tuition for the highly competitive program in Neuroscience at the University of Colorado in Denver."
Looks like it'll be another bumper crop of nuts this year...
Richard :munchin
ZonieDiver
07-24-2012, 12:38
Looks like it'll be another bumper crop of nuts this year...
Richard :munchin
IMHO, anyone who describes himself as a "demolitions expert" is not!
Pericles
07-24-2012, 13:35
You know I'll admit that, not being into firearms at the moment, I didn't know that until today. BUT, I decided to do some research this morning, and about a half hour of searching the Internet taught me that the AR-15 is the civilian variant of the M-16 (for a simplistic definition anyway) and that you cannot just buy fully-automatic weapons, fully-automatic weapons are classified as machine guns and require a whole bunch of paperwork, background check, waiting period, etc...plus cost a bundle. One would think these media types could at least do a little research:rolleyes: Being machine guns, I also do not think automatic weapons are necessarilly protected by the Second Amendment, as machine guns are not under the word "arms" as it is interpreted today from what I understand.
What it also means is that if any criminal goes on a shooting rampage with an automatic weapon, calls for more stringent gun control would be useless as those types of weapons are already heavily-regulated. O'Reilly made the same mistake tonight, saying one could just go and buy a machine gun (in an otherwise very pro-gun Talking Points). I sent him an e-mail saying that isn't the case, you can't just go and purchase an automatic-fire AK-47 or M-16. Stringent regulation of automatic fire weapons sure didn't stop the guys in the 1997 North Hollywood shootout from having them, and that during the time of Dianne Feinstein's "Assault Weapons Ban," in a city with some of the most restrictive gun laws, in one of the most anti-gun states in the nation. Tear gas is illegal for civilians to own, but this Holmes guy still got it. And in Norway last year to this week, some guy went on a rampage and killed over seventy people, gun laws there didn't stop him either.
What really shocked me were Feinstein's comments, saying about how these types of weapons are "military-grade assault weapons," that she has no problem with people owning a firearm, but they shouldn't be allowed to own these weapons meant for "close-range combat." Well what does she think, things like hunting rifles are only for distance shooting? Are pistols not meant for close-range? Guess that makes them "military-grade assault weapons" too.
Something I also learned is especially now the difference between rifles like the AR-15 and hunting rifles is narrowing as there are now lots of semi-automatic hunting rifles that take magazines and have collapsible stocks. Some of them if you don't know guns can easily be mistaken for a "military" rifle. Some of them are also based off of military platforms. At the same time, variants of the AR-15 for hunting are also being manufactured. Not that you don't know all of this already, but I mean thirty minutes of research on the Internet could clear up a whole lot of misconceptions for journalists!
If I may, I would like to add to your research in the form of the Militia Act of 1792, which may provide meaning into what the founder thought about what sort of weapons people should possess:
An ACT more effectually to provide for the National Defence, by establishing an Uniform Militia throughout the United States.
I. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, That each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective States, resident therein, who is or shall be of age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years (except as is herein after excepted) shall severally and respectively be enrolled in the militia, by the Captain or Commanding Officer of the company, within whose bounds such citizen shall reside, and that within twelve months after the passing of this Act. And it shall at all time hereafter be the duty of every such Captain or Commanding Officer of a company, to enroll every such citizen as aforesaid, and also those who shall, from time to time, arrive at the age of 18 years, or being at the age of 18 years, and under the age of 45 years (except as before excepted) shall come to reside within his bounds; and shall without delay notify such citizen of the said enrollment, by the proper non-commissioned Officer of the company, by whom such notice may be proved. That every citizen, so enrolled and notified, shall, within six months thereafter, provide himself with a good musket or firelock, a sufficient bayonet and belt, two spare flints, and a knapsack, a pouch, with a box therein, to contain not less than twenty four cartridges, suited to the bore of his musket or firelock, each cartridge to contain a proper quantity of powder and ball; or with a good rifle, knapsack, shot-pouch, and powder-horn, twenty balls suited to the bore of his rifle, and a quarter of a pound of powder; and shall appear so armed, accoutred and provided, when called out to exercise or into service, except, that when called out on company days to exercise only, he may appear without a knapsack. That the commissioned Officers shall severally be armed with a sword or hanger, and espontoon; and that from and after five years from the passing of this Act, all muskets from arming the militia as is herein required, shall be of bores sufficient for balls of the eighteenth part of a pound; and every citizen so enrolled, and providing himself with the arms, ammunition and accoutrements, required as aforesaid, shall hold the same exempted from all suits, distresses, executions or sales, for debt or for the payment of taxes.
blah blah blah
III. And be it further enacted, That within one year after the passing of the Act, the militia of the respective states shall be arranged into divisions, brigades, regiments, battalions, and companies, as the legislature of each state shall direct; and each division, brigade, and regiment, shall be numbered at the formation thereof; and a record made of such numbers of the Adjutant-General's office in the state; and when in the field, or in serviced in the state, such division, brigade, and regiment shall, respectively, take rank according to their numbers, reckoning the first and lowest number highest in rank. That if the same be convenient, each brigade shall consist of four regiments; each regiment or two battalions; each battalion of five companies; each company of sixty-four privates. That the said militia shall be officered by the respective states, as follows: To each division on Major-General, with two Aids-de-camp, with the rank of major; to each brigade, one brigadier-major, with the rank of a major; to each company, one captain, one lieutenant, one ensign, four serjeants, four corporals, one drummer, and one fifer and bugler. That there shall be a regimental staff, to consist of one adjutant, and one quartermaster, to rank as lieutenants; one paymaster; one surgeon, and one surgeon's mate; one serjeant-major; one drum- major, and one fife-major.
IV. And be it further enacted, That out of the militia enrolled as is herein directed, there shall be formed for each battalion, as least one company of grenadiers, light infantry or riflemen; and that each division there shall be, at least, one company of artillery, and one troop of horse: There shall be to each company of artillery, one captain, two lieutenants, four serjeants, four corporals, six gunners, six bombardiers, one drummer, and one fifer. The officers to be armed with a sword or hanger, a fusee, bayonet and belt, with a cartridge box to contain twelve cartridges; and each private of matoss shall furnish themselves with good horses of at least fourteen hands and an half high, and to be armed with a sword and pair of pistols, the holsters of which to be covered with bearskin caps. Each dragoon to furnish himself with a serviceable horse, at least fourteen hands and an half high, a good saddle, bridle, mail-pillion and valise, holster, and a best plate and crupper, a pair of boots and spurs; a pair of pistols, a sabre, and a cartouchbox to contain twelve cartridges for pistols. That each company of artillery and troop of horse shall be formed of volunteers from the brigade, at the discretion of the Commander in Chief of the State, not exceeding one company of each to a regiment, nor more in number than one eleventh part of the infantry, and shall be uniformly clothed in raiments, to be furnished at their expense, the colour and fashion to be determined by the Brigadier commanding the brigade to which they belong.
blah blah blah
X. And be it further enacted, That it shall be the duty of the brigade inspector, to attend the regimental and battalion meeting of the militia composing their several brigades, during the time of their being under arms, to inspect their arms, ammunition and accoutrements; superintend their exercise and maneuvres and introduce the system of military discipline before described, throughout the brigade, agreeable to law, and such orders as they shall from time to time receive from the commander in Chief of the State; to make returns to the adjutant general of the state at least once in every year, of the militia of the brigade to which he belongs, reporting therein the actual situation of the arms, accoutrement, and ammunition, of the several corps, and every other thing which, in his judgment, may relate to their government and general advancement of good order and military disciple; an adjutant general shall make a return of all militia of the state, to the Commander in Chief of the said state, and a duplicate of the same to the president of the United States.
And whereas sundry corps of artillery, cavalry and infantry now exist in several of the said states, which by the laws, customs, or usages thereof, have not been incorporated with, or subject to the general regulation of the militia.
XI. Be it enacted, That such corps retain their accustomed privileges subject, nevertheless, to all other duties required by this Act, in like manner with the other militias.
Streck-Fu
07-24-2012, 14:58
This photograph shows soft armor on the ground with stuff taken off the perp...
LINK (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2176377/James-Holmes-Colorado-shooting-Gunman-used-drugs-killed-Heath-Ledger.html?ICO=most_read_module)
I might be totally off base but my understanding of soft body armor is that when hit it will still allow a significant amount of cavitation. Basically acting as a net.
So without hard plates isn't it reasonable to believe that shots to center mass may indeed have impeded his ability to continue to shoot effectively at least for some time?
KimuraFTW
07-24-2012, 17:48
I might be totally off base but my understanding of soft body armor is that when hit it will still allow a significant amount of cavitation. Basically acting as a net.
So without hard plates isn't it reasonable to believe that shots to center mass may indeed have impeded his ability to continue to shoot effectively at least for some time?
I imagine it's also possible he could have retreated. It seems he likely chose the location that would provide minimal resistance with a lot of potential targets. Getting struck with a couple shots may have been more than he bargained for even with the soft armor. He didn't finish off with a firefight with the police and didn't resist so maybe he wasn't ready to die that day. Faced with the possibility of a death not on his terms, he may have fled. Unfortunately, we'll never know...
The Reaper
07-24-2012, 17:57
I might be totally off base but my understanding of soft body armor is that when hit it will still allow a significant amount of cavitation. Basically acting as a net.
So without hard plates isn't it reasonable to believe that shots to center mass may indeed have impeded his ability to continue to shoot effectively at least for some time?
Soft armor is built to meet NIJ standards for its rating, and to minimize backface deformation. Most soft vests have thin, hard armor plates that you can slip into pockets on the inner side of the vest to minimize backface derformation over the critical heart area.
You do not want to be hit in the vest, but it beats being hit by a bullet in the same area without a vest.
I believe that you could continue to engage while being hit in the vest, but it would likely affect your aim and rate of fire.
Multiple center of mass hits should have slowed him down, and the follow-up rounds to the face (failure drill) finished it. If not, well, better to die while returning fire than shot in the back while running. It is not like you would have had anything more important to do at that moment, and it could save a lot of lives.
And some people take more effort to kill than others.
TR
Incidentally, firearms deaths in the US are at historical lows, except curiously for the cities and states with the most restrictive laws. The media just covers them non-stop now as part of their agenda.
TR
Exactly. Take Chicago...up 40%.
Entire post
QP TR,
Thanks for the clarification. You learn something new every day. :)
TR- Thanks for the info. I suppose I over estimated the deformation getting hit would cause.
GratefulCitizen
07-24-2012, 20:50
Soft armor is built to meet NIJ standards for its rating, and to minimize backface deformation. Most soft vests have thin, hard armor plates that you can slip into pockets on the inner side of the vest to minimize backface derformation over the critical heart area.
You do not want to be hit in the vest, but it beats being hit by a bullet in the same area without a vest.
I believe that you could continue to engage while being hit in the vest, but it would likely affect your aim and rate of fire.
Multiple center of mass hits should have slowed him down, and the follow-up rounds to the face (failure drill) finished it. If not, well, better to die while returning fire than shot in the back while running. It is not like you would have had anything more important to do at that moment, and it could save a lot of lives.
And some people take more effort to kill than others.
TR
The shooter was rumored to be heavily dosed with painkillers, too.
Seems like he got ideas from the north Hollywood bank robbery.
"I don't understand why the police officers across this country don't stand up collectively and say we're going to go on strike," - Mayor Bloomberg
Because most police officers believe strongly in the Second Ammendment. Because most police officers will tell you that the best way to protect yourself is to arm yourself and train to protect your family until help can arrive.
Roughly 9,000 to 10,000 people are murdered by gunfire every year in the U.S. (a majority of these victims are involved in criminal activity themselves). Approximately 35,000 people die from drug overdose each year. Yet liberals want to legalize drugs and ban firearms. Makes sense to me:rolleyes:
So he had body armor. Return gunfire could have
A. Struck him in the head and killed him
B. Caused him to turn the gun on himself (as many of these mass shooting suspects have done when confronted by police or gunfire)
C. Driven him out of the theater
D. Distracted him enough to allow more people to escape
E. Struck his weapon and created a malfunction, allowing you to close on him and finish it
Etc.....
They should have put a bullet in his face.
Then they could have wiped up his blood and brains with copies of the Bill of Rights.
"I don't understand why the police officers across this country don't stand up collectively and say we're going to go on strike," - Mayor Bloomberg
No guns, no knives, no 16oz soft drinks...it will be Utopia!
DIYPatriot
07-25-2012, 08:03
Then they could have wiped up his blood and brains with copies of the Bill of Rights.
At that point, he'd still have the right to remain silent. ;)
...
And some people take more effort to kill than others.
TR
I have come to realize in my short time on this planet, the propensity for life to continue amidst the harsh line between life and death; the desire to keep going and living in nature, even after much of the organisims (human or other) functions have shut down.
A prime example in this instance are the victims that were shot and injured, some of them in critical condition and left for dead in the shooters mind, that pulled through, albeit with help from the first responders and trauma teams.
This is truly a WTF story from the Aurora shooting.
It's one thing, during a severe crisis, if my guy secures our family and then leaves us because he is rushing the shooter. Personally, I totally support and would admire a man who did that. Even if he was taken down. He'd be my hero.
It's another thing entirely if he leaves his "loved ones", which in this case includes his girlfriend struggling with a 4-yo and a 4-mo old baby while everyone is trampling them, he runs to the car (yes, without them), he leaves the theater (yes, without them), and instead she is helped by a stranger, she gets shot, and he takes a bullet trying to guide her and the kids out.
If some "loved one" did that to me, I wouldn't even speak to him again, much less marry him.
Jamie Rohrs and girlfriend Patricia Legarreta, both 25, were at the theater with 2 small children (her 4yo daughter and their 4mo old son). Gunfire breaks out. She hits the floor with the babies, boyfriend Jamie hauls ass, and 19-yr old Jarell who was sitting nearby helps her out. Good Samaritan Jarell and Patricia both get shot (they're both ok). Loser Jamie pulls his head out of his ass, goes to hospital to find Patricia, proposes to her, and in the final WTF moment she says yes. The internet world today is saying NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/an-awkward-engagement-woman-agrees-to-marry-man-after-he-ditched-her-in-aurora-theater/
Watch the video with Jamie/Patricia and watch her body language while he pours on the waterworks about why he jumped over the wall and ran, leaving her and the babies behind. I wanted to reach through the computer screen with a sledgehammer and smash his POS lying face.
Jarell, you my friend ROCK. May you have a long and blessed life.
KimuraFTW
07-25-2012, 17:09
This is truly a WTF story from the Aurora shooting.
It's one thing, during a severe crisis, if my guy secures our family and then leaves us because he is rushing the shooter. Personally, I totally support and would admire a man who did that. Even if he was taken down. He'd be my hero.
It's another thing entirely if he leaves his "loved ones", which in this case includes his girlfriend struggling with a 4-yo and a 4-mo old baby while everyone is trampling them, he runs to the car (yes, without them), he leaves the theater (yes, without them), and instead she is helped by a stranger, she gets shot, and he takes a bullet trying to guide her and the kids out.
If some "loved one" did that to me, I wouldn't even speak to him again, much less marry him.
Jamie Rohrs and girlfriend Patricia Legarreta, both 25, were at the theater with 2 small children (her 4yo daughter and their 4mo old son). Gunfire breaks out. She hits the floor with the babies, boyfriend Jamie hauls ass, and 19-yr old Jarell who was sitting nearby helps her out. Good Samaritan Jarell and Patricia both get shot (they're both ok). Loser Jamie pulls his head out of his ass, goes to hospital to find Patricia, proposes to her, and in the final WTF moment she says yes. The internet world today is saying NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/an-awkward-engagement-woman-agrees-to-marry-man-after-he-ditched-her-in-aurora-theater/
Watch the video with Jamie/Patricia and watch her body language while he pours on the waterworks about why he jumped over the wall and ran, leaving her and the babies behind. I wanted to reach through the computer screen with a sledgehammer and smash his POS lying face.
Jarell, you my friend ROCK. May you have a long and blessed life.
"I don't wanna live if they all die..." :boohoo
Sooo...I guess trying to save them should have been a no brainer then huh?
Or maybe he was going to when he realized he left the stove on...
The Reaper
07-25-2012, 17:12
TR- Thanks for the info. I suppose I over estimated the deformation getting hit would cause.
The vest takes the energy from the round and spreads it out over a larger area. Human skin is very pliable.
Kind of like getting hit by a baseball, rather than a bullet.
It hurts, and leaves a helluva bruise, but it beats the alternative.
TR
Watch the video with Jamie/Patricia and watch her body language while he pours on the waterworks about why he jumped over the wall and ran, leaving her and the babies behind.
What a tool.
I think they deserve each other. :rolleyes:
The vest takes the energy from the round and spreads it out over a larger area. Human skin is very pliable.
Kind of like getting hit by a baseball, rather than a bullet.
It hurts, and leaves a helluva bruise, but it beats the alternative.
TR
TR
Thanks for the clarification.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/25/exclusive-movie-massacre-suspect-laid-out-plans-in-package-mailed-to/
So he sent a detailed journal to a psychiatrist but it got held in the mail.
It occurred to me while reading this that if his twisted little fantasy is to be the Joker. The Joker always ends up in the sanitarium. I wonder if based on his knowledge of neuroscience and I assume basic psychology this is all still part of his plan to plead insanity.
caveat; I may be giving him way to much credit
Obama urges tighter background checks on gun buyers after Aurora massacre
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/obama-urges-tighter-background-checks-gun-buyers-aurora-033815400.html?_esi=1
"............."I believe the majority of gun owners would agree that we should do everything possible to prevent criminals and fugitives from purchasing weapons; that we should check someone's criminal record before they can check out a gun seller; that a mentally unbalanced individual should not be able to get his hands on a gun so easily," he said. "These steps shouldn't be controversial. They should be common sense."................."
So just what defines mentally unbalanced? Could it include those being treated for PTSD? I've been saying for years that was one of the goals in the War on Guns.
"..........."When there is an extraordinarily heartbreaking tragedy like the one we saw, there's always an outcry immediately after for action. And there's talk of new reforms, and there's talk of new legislation," Obama said in his speech. "And too often, those efforts are defeated by politics and by lobbying and eventually by the pull of our collective attention elsewhere."
"And I, like most Americans, believe that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual the right to bear arms. And we recognize the traditions of gun ownership that passed on from generation to generation -— that hunting and shooting are part of a cherished national heritage," he said.................."
In other words "Lets keep our focus and we can get 'er done this time - well, maybe after the election".
Mr President, the 2nd Amendment is not about hunting, sports or shooting.
"............."I believe the majority of Americans would agree that we should do everything possible to prevent criminals and fugitives from voting and running for office; that we should check someone's record before they can run for office; that a mentally unbalanced individual should not be able to get his hands on a ballot so easily," he said. "These steps shouldn't be controversial. They should be common sense."................."
WARNING: I had to triple the tinfoil lining in my beret after reading this one.
It was staged by the FBI as a follow-up to Fast and Furious just in time for a vote on the UN small arms treaty. :rolleyes:
The mission, as we are now learning, was to cause as much terror and mayhem as possible, then to have that multiplied by the national media at exactly the right time leading up the UN vote next week on a global small arms treaty that could result in gun confiscation across America.
http://www.naturalnews.com/036536_James_Holmes_shooting_false_flag.html#ixzz2 1iUI2WI5
The corn crops may be suffering from a drought, but there will definitely be a bumper crop of nuts this year!
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
"............."I believe the majority of Americans would agree that we should do everything possible to prevent criminals and fugitives from voting and running for office; that we should check someone's record before they can run for office; that a mentally unbalanced individual should not be able to get his hands on a ballot so easily," he said. "These steps shouldn't be controversial. They should be common sense."................."
Amen and Amen
WARNING: I had to triple the tinfoil lining in my beret after reading this one.
It was staged by the FBI as a follow-up to Fast and Furious just in time for a vote on the UN small arms treaty. :rolleyes:
The corn crops may be suffering from a drought, but there will definitely be a bumper crop of nuts this year!
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
Keep in mind Sir, that not all that long ago mentioning Fast and Furious as fact would have got you odd stares, giggles and remarks like 'You're Nuts'.
I am not saying that I disagree with you on this one, but the Government Agencies and the Administration have given the Conspiracy Crowd plenty hard evidence over the past 3 1/2 years (We'll stay out of the Clinton Administration Highlights) that has vindicated some of their claims.
A Government that will knowingly give guns to criminal cartels is an accessory to any crimes committed with those guns. IMO, it is not far fetched that people would believe a Government capable of Fast & Furious would have any issue turning guns on it's own citizenry to achieve a goal.
Streck-Fu
07-26-2012, 07:22
IMO, it is not far fetched that people would believe a Government capable of Fast & Furious would have any issue turning guns on it's own citizenry to achieve a goal.
I disagree and think that it is a huge leap from passively letting guns go to actively enabling the willful slaughter of citizens. The idea that some government agent directed this massacre is equivalent to the Bush admin pulling off 9/11.
I disagree and think that it is a huge leap from passively letting guns go to actively enabling the willful slaughter of citizens. The idea that some government agent directed this massacre is equivalent to the Bush admin pulling off 9/11.
I agree with you, but the Government has set an nefarious example and they are reaping the rewards of their endeavors.
I would argue that the ATF's role in Fast & Furious borders on an active role. While they can plausibly deny they had any intent of causing death, they knew full well what would likely happen with some of the guns. And as the CBS article below mentions ATF's Bill Newell used Fast & Furious press an agenda. Newell was passively just doing his job and following orders.
On Jan. 4, 2011, as ATF prepared a press conference to announce arrests in Fast and Furious, Newell saw it as “(A)nother time to address Multiple Sale on Long Guns issue.” And a day after the press conference, Chait emailed Newell: “Bill–well done yesterday… (I)n light of our request for Demand letter 3, this case could be a strong supporting factor if we can determine how many multiple sales of long guns occurred during the course of this case.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695/documents-atf-used-fast-and-furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations/?tag=re1.channel
People have died and the Government has lied....all to achieve a goal.
Stuff like that vindicates the conspiracies in the mind of the Tin Foil community and to a growing distrust in the Government.
In other words "Lets keep our focus and we can get 'er done this time - well, maybe after the election".
Mr President, the 2nd Amendment is not about hunting, sports or shooting.
I think Suzanna Gratia Hupp said (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1u0Byq5Qis) it best, at the 5:08 mark.
ZonieDiver
07-26-2012, 12:46
I agree with you, but the Government has set an nefarious example and they are reaping the rewards of their endeavors.
I would argue that the ATF's role in Fast & Furious borders on an active role. While they can plausibly deny they had any intent of causing death, they knew full well what would likely happen with some of the guns. And as the CBS article below mentions ATF's Bill Newell used Fast & Furious press an agenda. Newell was passively just doing his job and following orders.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695/documents-atf-used-fast-and-furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations/?tag=re1.channel
People have died and the Government has lied....all to achieve a goal.
Stuff like that vindicates the conspiracies in the mind of the Tin Foil community and to a growing distrust in the Government.
CBS News! I thought that the MSM was in the hip pocket of the government. CBS News is about as MS as MSM can get... without being that MSM called MSNBC.
charlietwo
07-26-2012, 15:50
http://resist44.com/aurora-theater-shooting-armed-response-analysis
Here's an article analyzing the situation and hypothesizing on armed members in the audience.
CBS News! I thought that the MSM was in the hip pocket of the government. CBS News is about as MS as MSM can get... without being that MSM called MSNBC.
Sharyl Attkisson is, thus far, proving to be the exception to the current MSM rule - at least with regard to the Fast & Furious investigation.
Good job Ms. Attkisson, with the F&F investigation.
I wonder if she is being audited? Yet?
miclo18d
07-26-2012, 19:57
http://resist44.com/aurora-theater-shooting-armed-response-analysis
Here's an article analyzing the situation and hypothesizing on armed members in the audience.
That analysis was pretty good. Not sure about the conclusions of the best place to be in the theater. I would say that if you survive the first few seconds then you should be able to get a good shot soon there after especially when he transitions or had the malfunction from anywhere on the right side of the theater. There is no scale of distance on the analysis and more than 25m starts getting tough for a pistol when you have time to take aim at a range. 10m and in should be a no brainer and you could put a mag into the armor and face in just a few seconds. Primary concern at that point is innocent bystanders.
IIRC, the mall and theater had "No Weapon Stickers" meaning that if caught with a weapon could be considered armed trespass (I'm not familiar with CO law) and that law abiding citizens would probably disarm themselves to see a movie there. That would negate his conclusions unless your right to carry is stated in statutes (FL law gives you the right to carry ANYWHERE not prohibited by law, aka crack and whore houses...or if asked to leave a premises...if you stay it becomes armed trespass).
No contemplation of armed civilians in this DHS video.
The gun-free zones do appear to offer the bad guy much more time for the slaughter.
Continued - objective - professional analysis of potential armed citizen response to such situations should be interesting, educational and may save lives.
DHS-funded video gives tips to survive a shooter
Friday - 7/27/2012, 7:08am ET
Federal News Radio
After last week's shooting at a movie theater in Aurora, Colo., the city of Houston has released a how-to video on surviving a shooter event.
The video was created with funds from the Homeland Security Department.
http://www.federalnewsradio.com/473/2966001/DHS-funded-video-gives-tips-to-survive-a-shooter
Destrier
07-27-2012, 12:11
Unfortunately this video ignores the best response available. Set down beverage. Sweep outer garment to side, draw sidearm. Engage with surprise, speed, and violence of action. Threat neutralized, make sidearm safe, holster sidearm, have a seat and wait for the police response team. Finish beverage.
Surprisingly not the worst video I've seen. DHS will probably pull all funding since it says its ok to fight.
I also like the clip where it says first responders are not there to evacuate or help the injured but to stop the threat. I think that was a big problem for the Aurora officers. Listening to the dispatch tapes most became fixated on the injured and evacuations instead of going to the threat and stopping it.
link to tapes if it'll work
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFuNDOQ3b-0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Derek
miclo18d
07-30-2012, 08:22
No contemplation of armed civilians in this DHS video.
The gun-free zones do appear to offer the bad guy much more time for the slaughter.
Continued - objective - professional analysis of potential armed citizen response to such situations should be interesting, educational and may save lives.
DHS-funded video gives tips to survive a shooter
Friday - 7/27/2012, 7:08am ET
Federal News Radio
After last week's shooting at a movie theater in Aurora, Colo., the city of Houston has released a how-to video on surviving a shooter event.
The video was created with funds from the Homeland Security Department.
http://www.federalnewsradio.com/473/2966001/DHS-funded-video-gives-tips-to-survive-a-shooter
The video was really good, I'm sure someone at DHS just got fired.
What was really great were the responses at the bottom!
No contemplation of armed civilians in this DHS video.
The gun-free zones do appear to offer the bad guy much more time for the slaughter.
Continued - objective - professional analysis of potential armed citizen response to such situations should be interesting, educational and may save lives.
DHS-funded video gives tips to survive a shooter
Friday - 7/27/2012, 7:08am ET
Federal News Radio
After last week's shooting at a movie theater in Aurora, Colo., the city of Houston has released a how-to video on surviving a shooter event.
The video was created with funds from the Homeland Security Department.
http://www.federalnewsradio.com/473/2966001/DHS-funded-video-gives-tips-to-survive-a-shooter
Like any good production, creative liberty is at extreme. I like the sound track.:rolleyes:
Funny how in their escape the first group of office workers goes up the stairwell. I suppose that move is to sit up there on the roof and wait for the helo evac.
And if they had been trained in the use of fire equipment, discharging the fire extinguisher as the door opened would have been a first good move, IMO, and then whack the guy.
Pulling the fire alarm as you pass it in the hall, hitting the alarms in the elevators, using that rolling copy machine (the one with the wheels on it) as a rolling ram for cover to make escape or ram the guy, grabbing the firehose (usually in the stairwells) and turning on the water full blast in the direction of the shooter...all hypotheticals for this hypothetical.
As long as one is hiding, may as well be dialing 911, and then silence the phone, but they never mention that either.
ETA: Besides, this is only one possible scenario addressed in the video.
Team Sergeant
07-31-2012, 08:14
Armed response to this sort of shooting takes a trained individual. Many people that carry concealed carry to defend themselves, not the public. This includes the local police, state and federal agents. They all carry side arms to defend themselves.
Most concealed carry individuals carry a six shooter or a small auto with a one inch barrel, not very accurate and not a good choice against a long gun. These weapons even in the hands of highly trained individuals are almost useless past 10 meters.
Now couple that with the training given by 99.99% of all law enforcement (and 99.99% of concealed carry training) that states "You will only engage threats inside of 21 feet." That is written in stone in probably all 50 states. If you shoot someone past 21 feet with your concealed weapon you can be brought up on some very serious charges.
Add to that that not many people are willing to "charge" an individual armed with a long gun, it takes a mindset that most don't possess.
Waiting for the police to respond to this sort of scenario is not the answer, neither is gun-free zones. Running and hiding will get you a bullet in the back. We need trained individuals that are free to carry just about anywhere and without some of the very restrictive laws or rules of engagement.
Had a trained concealed carry individual fired from the top of the theater at the armed individual 30-40 meters away, in Massachusetts, Illinois, California or New York and many other states he might be sentenced to prison for years.
I can hit a man size target all day at 100 meters with the handgun that I carry concealed, and I don't mind killing bad guys but I ain't going to jail for doing it.
In order for the concealed carry to work for the public it requires better training and less restrictive rules of engagement.
TS
Badger52
07-31-2012, 09:34
Now couple that with the training given by 99.99% of all law enforcement (and 99.99% of concealed carry training) that states "You will only engage threats inside of 21 feet." That is written in stone in probably all 50 states. If you shoot someone past 21 feet with your concealed weapon you can be brought up on some very serious charges.
That's astute you mention that 21-ft thing. Back when I was playing the "collect non-res permission slips" game I attended a class where the instructor was trying to emphasize the importance of all-around SA and threat 'management' outside this (in)famous magical Tueller distance. I got the Mattel rubber bayonet, a guy with enough 5.11 gear to match his attitude got the blue gun. I bs'd with the instructor like Maury Wills gettin' a big lead at first and owned this guy bad when I finally started at him from about 18-ft. Kinda like if he'd found himself on the wrong side of a strange town at night....
I think it takes a mindset to begin with, as well as training, to get that 'OO' piece of the loop running faster. I'm no badass but in the above I was already inside his loop even though he knew I was eventually comin' and from what direction.
There's no magic pill but training coupled with your sig line works better for me than the fetal position.
Dozer523
07-31-2012, 10:58
We need trained individuals that are free to carry just about anywhere and without some of the very restrictive laws or rules of engagement.
TSYou want something like a free-roaming Air Marshal, only on the ground. (I'm not being an a. . . Handcock)
I get you and agree -- in theory. But practically sounds pretty hard to do. There's lots of places on the ground unlike not so many places in the air.
One tof the reasons Air Marshals are supposed to work is the bad guy doesn't know if they are on the plane but there is a high possibility he/she is and has been waiting his whole career for this moment.
Just as easily could have been an off-duty Police Officer in the audiance. Hard problem to fix.
That's astute you mention that 21-ft thing. Back when I was playing the "collect non-res permission slips" game I attended a class where the instructor was trying to emphasize the importance of all-around SA and threat 'management' outside this (in)famous magical Tueller distance. I got the Mattel rubber bayonet, a guy with enough 5.11 gear to match his attitude got the blue gun. I bs'd with the instructor like Maury Wills gettin' a big lead at first and owned this guy bad when I finally started at him from about 18-ft. Kinda like if he'd found himself on the wrong side of a strange town at night....
I think it takes a mindset to begin with, as well as training, to get that 'OO' piece of the loop running faster. I'm no badass but in the above I was already inside his loop even though he knew I was eventually comin' and from what direction.
There's no magic pill but training coupled with your sig line works better for me than the fetal position.
Good to know, Badger. That Tueller distance is often presented as fact. With a gun drawn approaching from the oblique and possibly misdirection become imperative, IMO.
You must have a pretty decent mile pace, and explode off the line when needed. Stacks odds and probabilities in your favor. A fighting chance that I have no doubt many on this board would be calculating (albeit subconsciously) as they close and engage the target.
Whole lotta coulda, shoulda, woulda in here over this situation...especially from those who ain't never and ain't gonna. <yawn>
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
Badger52
07-31-2012, 14:06
Good to know, Badger. That Tueller distance is often presented as fact. With a gun drawn approaching from the oblique and possibly misdirection become imperative, IMO.
You must have a pretty decent mile pace, and explode off the line when needed. Stacks odds and probabilities in your favor. A fighting chance that I have no doubt many on this board would be calculating (albeit subconsciously) as they close and engage the target.My distance pace or movement off my own spot relates only to that instant in front of me at the moment described, not to a MMQB'd Aurora theater shooting. I related that because I take TS's point seriously, that far too many people think things will be fine if they can keep an ID'd threat out at this 21-ft distance that has gotten way more airplay than it should. Just like they watch some outdoor shooting show & think 2 to the chest, 1 to the head, stand-back & assess will work without fail just 'cause they shot a pretty group on some static D1's.
There's very little Guv-mandated I'm in favor of; but I believe it's in folks' interest to seek out on their own varied, dynamic training. If nothing else, it can help one assess their own limitations.
My distance pace or movement off my own spot relates only to that instant in front of me at the moment described, not to a MMQB'd Aurora theater shooting. I related that because I take TS's point seriously, that far too many people think things will be fine if they can keep an ID'd threat out at this 21-ft distance that has gotten way more airplay than it should. Just like they watch some outdoor shooting show & think 2 to the chest, 1 to the head, stand-back & assess will work without fail just 'cause they shot a pretty group on some static D1's.
There's very little Guv-mandated I'm in favor of; but I believe it's in folks' interest to seek out on their own varied, dynamic training. If nothing else, it can help one assess their own limitations.
Right, stationary targets and moving targets are two different bears, and some folks can't even hit the stationary paper.
I'm fortunate enough to know one of the IDPA range masters out this way, and I know that they have some pretty dynamic courses and training.
Cake_14N
07-31-2012, 16:04
In my simple and humble opinion the problem here is the creation of Gun-Free zones. I bet $1 that we will eventually learn that Mr. Holmes picked his target based at least partly on the fact the guns are not allowed. He knew nobody was going to shoot back. If there was even a possibility that somebody in that theater could have been legally armed, he might have gone someplace else.
As long as we restrict law-abiding citizens the criminal element will always win.
I look for "No Firearms" signs at each entrance of business I visit. If I see the "No Firearms" sign, I take a second and re-evaluate my purchase. If I can go elsewear and make the same purchase, I do. I have been questioned by more than one employee of those businesses as to why I left and I told them the truth, I don't support businesses that discriminate against law-abiding citizens.
DIYPatriot
07-31-2012, 16:05
There's very little Guv-mandated I'm in favor of; but I believe it's in folks' interest to seek out on their own varied, dynamic training. If nothing else, it can help one assess their own limitations.
For me, this is spot on! A few years ago I was proud of my shooting until I was challenged by a friend of mine (firearms instructor for our deputies) to take it up a notch and work through the various courses offered at the range. From force on force to urban combat, etc, my eyes were widely opened to a great deal of deficiencies. I dropped the ego really damn fast and realized if I was to improve I would have to attack my weaknesses and make them my strengths.
Shooting static targets at 10 meters or less is fun practice and I'm all about fun, but to truly grab the tiger by the tail you have to push outside your comfort zone and be willing to cross-examine your skill set. At least that's how I learn YMMV. I continue to train and rehearse scenarios, too, and I'm far from QP level proficiency. Those guys are on the high dive while I'm in the 3' wading pool.
Now, doing it in real life with tear gas in a densely populated darkened room while being completely out-gunned, surprised, etc? I try to mentally rehearse that and all I can think is, "MY GOD...what horrible odds - how on earth would I close distance and gain some sort of advantage? Or would I even be somewhere I'm not allowed to carry?" - probably no to the latter, though I can't avoid all gun-free zones, sadly.
Thank goodness our theater still allows us to carry, however, my 17 rounds chambered in 9mm versus 100 rounds .223/5.56, shotgun, etc...those numbers do not support my life expectancy, but I'd like to think I'd go down fighting before I curled up and became an easier target. For me, any kind of violent response to an attack is better than nothing.
This thread is beginning to sound like a 'Terror at Beslan' seminar by he whose name I won't speak. I can't wait for the e-tools to come out. Just sayin'...
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
DIYPatriot
07-31-2012, 17:12
This thread is beginning to sound like a 'Terror at Beslan' seminar by he whose name I won't speak. I can't wait for the e-tools to come out. Just sayin'...
Yes, you have a very good point. Didn't mean to head that direction...
ZonieDiver
07-31-2012, 19:44
This thread is beginning to sound like a 'Terror at Beslan' seminar by he whose name I won't speak. I can't wait for the e-tools to come out. Just sayin'...
And so it goes...
Richard
You've got that right! I was thinking I had stumbled in to an AirSoft forum there for a minute or two.
Anyone ever heard of the man who dropped his keys in the snow as he was trying to open the door to his house?
He was soon after seen searching under the corner streetlight and explaining that he was looking for the key in the light, since it was dark at his door.
Doing something is good, even if accomplishes nothing. Correct?
You lost me there, sport. Would you like to expound on your point further?
miclo18d
08-01-2012, 06:32
Would a sharpened Spetznaz shovel be considered a concealed weapon?
Couldn't resist. ;) :D
I would say that the main points have been pounded:
1. Gun free zones aren't.
2. Better to fight on your feet than die on your knees.
Would a sharpened Spetznaz shovel be considered a concealed weapon?
Couldn't resist. ;) :D
I would say that the main points have been pounded:
1. Gun free zones aren't.
2. Better to fight on your feet than die on your knees.
And that the rules/laws only apply to those that follow them, and this can go both ways...at least that is what I take away from all of this.
Reviewing the methods we would have, could have used to neutralize the shooter in this situation, without having actually been there, doesn't accomplish anything in the way of a situational analysis.
Unless this is an AAR. In that case, we're right on track.
I must've missed the ~sarcasm~ smiley.
This is exactly an AAR, and everyone is posting their opinions as if it were, because it is. If you think and act as you posted in your first paragraph, one would think "Why train"? Why fight"? "It doesn't do any good to have situational awareness, there's nothing you can do anyway".
I personally abhor this type of thinking. If YOU want to be an unwitting victim, please stand next to me, as I won't be, and I won't have your back, I'll have mine and my families. You'll get shot, I'll walk away.
I carry everywhere I go, I avoid gun-free zones, and I maintain SA at all times, along with practicing different scenarios that one may encounter in their daily activities. Guess we need to add a theater scenario to the list now. RIP to the victims and that was not a joke.
2c
greenberetTFS
08-02-2012, 23:30
This lady is absolutely awesome. Keeps 100% cool and control. She is going to be in Dispatcher training textbooks.............;)
One great dispatcher and an excellent response coordination by the PD.......:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkUi6q5kgbU&feature=youtu.be
Big Teddy :munchin
Defense attorney's for Holmes state he is mentally ill and will plead insanity.
Knew this was going to happen, but they're going to have a hard time proving it.
But Hinkley got off for shooting Reagan, so they just might get it with this kid. :mad:
Attorneys: Theater Shooting Suspect Is Mentally Ill
CENTENNIAL, Colo. -- Attorneys for accused movie theater shooter James Holmes mentioned three times during a Thursday afternoon court hearing that he is mentally ill.
They mentioned the issue once when the defense argued it had not received all the evidence in the case.
"We cannot begin to assess the depth of Holme's mental illness until we receive all evidence," the defense said.
Defense attorneys said they had 2,677 pages of discovery, which includes reports from crime scene officers but they had no photos and no video from the district attorney's office.
The second mention of mental illness was during an argument about unsealing documents requested by the media.
The defense said Holmes sought help from Dr. Fenton for mental illness and it caused problems when there was a motion about obtaining information about a package Holmes had sent to Fenton.
The defense also argued that if the court releases the Registry of Action, or synopsis of the minutes or notes of the hearings, the titles of certain hearings could reveal more about his mental illness.
Victim Stares At Holmes In Court
The suspect, James Holmes, 24, was at the hearing. Holmes didn't say anything or do anything of note, according to Marshall Zelinger, who was in the courtroom.
There were several victims in the courtroom.
Pierce O'Farrill, whose arm was in a sling, took in the entire proceeding.
Shane Medek, Micayla Medek's brother, stared at Holmes during the entire 80-minute hearing and on occasion learned forward aggressively toward Holmes. Micayla Medek was one of the 12 who was shot and killed.
News Organizations Seeking Court Documents
At the hearing, news media organizations went before a judge to seek access to court documents in the Colorado theater shooting case.
The news organizations are also asking the judge to scale back a sweeping gag order that bars the University of Colorado from releasing details about the alleged shooter, James Holmes. Holmes is a former student.
Holmes is charged with multiple counts of first-degree murder and attempted first-degree murder in the shooting during a midnight showing of the latest Batman movie.
The July 20 shooting left 12 people dead and injured 58 others at the Century 16 movie theater in Aurora.
Steven Zansberg is the Denver lawyer representing the news organizations, including 7NEWS.
He told Colorado Public Radio's "Colorado Matters," the court should have the burden of proving releasing court documents would cause harm to the police investigation.
Zansberg said releasing court documents allows the public to see justice is being done and observe the process.
"Public scrutiny tends to make everyone involved in the process pay attention and act honestly," he told the station.
Former prosecutor and adjunct professor of law at the University of Denver, Karen Steinhauser told the station unsealing documents during an active investigation could harm prosecutors' ability to build a case against Holmes.
Steinhauser said as prosecutors continue to interview witnesses, it will become increasingly difficult to prove that the statements given are the witnesses' own knowledge versus something they may have heard in the media.
"People then, they are still in the process of trying to interview; would learn of some detail and some information, it might be difficult then to try to show that this witness was giving the information based on what they knew versus what they learned from reading [news reports]," Steinhauser told CPR.
She added opening the court file could taint the jury pool against Holmes.
Zansberg said prosecutors don't need to find a jury that's ignorant of the shooting.
"I'm not sure we could find 12 such people in Colorado," he said.
Prosecutors need only find 12 jurors who will uphold their oath to decide guilt or innocence based off the evidence that is presented in court, Zansberg said.
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31343604/detail.html
Just saw a follow up to this story this morning along with some drivel about banning assault weapons. What caught my eye was a graphic of someone using a plastic .223 round to press the magazine release on an AR. Underneath that it said the following
A plastic replica of a bullet is used to quickly remove a ammunition magazine from an assault rifle in a demonstration at the California Department of Justice in Sacramento, Calif., Aug. 15. Current law requires some type of tool, even something like a bullet, be used when reloading. State Sen. Leland Yee, D-San Francisco, is proposing to change California law to make it more difficult and time-consuming to reload.
So off I go to Google this 'existing law' that Ive never heard mention of before. I found page after page after page after page of stories saying the EXACT same thing
http://www.google.com/search?q=law+requires+a+tool+to+reload&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS466US466&sugexp=chrome,mod=15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=law+requires+a+tool+to+reload&hl=en&safe=active&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS466US466&prmd=imvns&ei=d0wuUPPPPOrg2gXHyYGgDg&start=0&sa=N&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=d858ff3861264939&biw=1306&bih=788
Is there REALLY a law that says you need a tool to reload a firearm? If so, I'm doing it wrong.
Badger52
08-17-2012, 09:45
Just saw a follow up to this story this morning along with some drivel about banning assault weapons. What caught my eye was a graphic of someone using a plastic .223 round to press the magazine release on an AR. Underneath that it said the following
So off I go to Google this 'existing law' that Ive never heard mention of before. I found page after page after page after page of stories saying the EXACT same thing
http://www.google.com/search?q=law+requires+a+tool+to+reload&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS466US466&sugexp=chrome,mod=15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=law+requires+a+tool+to+reload&hl=en&safe=active&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS466US466&prmd=imvns&ei=d0wuUPPPPOrg2gXHyYGgDg&start=0&sa=N&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=d858ff3861264939&biw=1306&bih=788
Is there REALLY a law that says you need a tool to reload a firearm? If so, I'm doing it wrong.California has their own unique version of everything, including an Assault Weapons Law, which was modified awhile back to codify the requirement that it is neceesary to use a tool to remove a magazine for reloading, otherwise it's classed as an AW. Try googling instead "bullet button" and you'll also get the knee-jerk responses (called knee-JERK for a reason) to close what the panty-waisted tyrants see as a loophole. (Loophole: n. when someone is smarter than the tyrant & gets good at a legal workaround for something stupid.)
Edit: I need a pukin' smiley after typing that.
:rolleyes:
Thank you Badger52 - I'm struggling to wrap my mind around this. So in CA, now, if you dont need a tool to reload, you actually have an AW? Sweet! Now I have 3 class III firearms and I didnt even need to go through the process :rolleyes:
Badger52
08-17-2012, 10:45
Thank you Badger52 - I'm struggling to wrap my mind around this. So in CA, now, if you dont need a tool to reload, you actually have an AW? Sweet! Now I have 3 class III firearms and I didnt even need to go through the process :rolleyes:Don't bother wrapping your mind around CA - other people need the Tylenol. I left in '69, proof that a HS civics teacher who emphasized critical thinking did his job.
Now go let them munch on some ammo.
The answer to the LEOs caution in seeking access to Holmes' apartment.
Richard :munchin
Updates from hearing: Holmes said to have rigged home with explosives to distract police
A federal agent testified Tuesday (8 Jan 2013) that James Holmes, who is charged in the Aurora, Colo., theater massacre, had booby-trapped his apartment and intended it to serve as a distraction while he went on his shooting rampage.
FBI bomb tech Garrett Gumbinner testified that Holmes used improvised napalm, homemade thermite, gasoline, smokeless gun powder, rifle bullets and a host of wiring and electronics to rig more than a dozen explosives and incendiary devices.
Holmes told the agent that he hoped to draw his neighbors and police to the elaborate system by setting up music to be played loudly from his home computer or a boom box he placed near a dumpster outside his apartment.
Above the boom box was a remote-controlled toy car and what looked like a remote control, but was in actuality a controller used in fireworks shows. It would have set off the explosives inside the apartment.
Meanwhile, fishing line tied to the apartment door would also have set off the explosives.
The testimony came during the second day of a preliminary hearing to determine if Holmes should stand trial for the shooting deaths of 12 people and for charges that he wounded numerous other people in the attack.
mark46th
01-09-2013, 09:05
Criminals should first be tried for their offense(s). If they are found guilty, they should be sentenced according to the law, then a determination should be made as to their sanity...
Barbarian
01-09-2013, 10:00
Defense attorney's for Holmes state he is mentally ill and will plead insanity.
When a mad dog hurts someone, it gets put down.....
When a mad dog hurts someone, it gets put down.....
Very well said!!!
Am thinking about 20 years ago, and further, when we did not have 24 hour news-I-Sh*t, Instant whatever....these things still happened I think, but were not reported/commented on in public. I woulod say, "how sad", but it is the times we live in...:rolleyes::(
JMHO,
Holly
So wait, the cops were told by his psychiatrist this dirt bag was batshit crazy and homicidal before hand?
http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/holmes-psychiatrist-warned-of-threat-before-attack
A psychiatrist who treated James Holmes told campus police a month before the Colorado theater attack that Holmes had homicidal thoughts and was a danger to the public, according to documents released Thursday.
Dr. Lynne Fenton, a psychiatrist at the University of Colorado, Denver, told police in June that the shooting suspect also threatened and intimidated her. It was more than a month before the July 20 attack at a movie theater that killed 12 and injured 70.
In the days after the attack, campus police said they had never had contact with Holmes, who was a graduate student at the university.
But campus police Officer Lynn Whitten told investigators after the shooting that Fenton had contacted her. Whitten said Fenton was following her legal requirement to report threats to authorities, according to a search warrant affidavit.
"Dr. Fenton advised that through her contact with James Holmes she was reporting, per her requirement, his danger to the public due to homicidal statements he had made," the affidavit said.
Whitten added that Fenton said she began to receive threatening text messages from Holmes after he stopped seeing her for counseling, the documents said.
Hmmm so if the Campus Police did something to PROTECT the citizenry we might not be having this discussion!
It just goes to show that the police can't/won't protect us!
I wonder how this small tidbit of information would have swayed the recent Colorado gun control discussion.
So wait, the cops were told by his psychiatrist this dirt bag was batshit crazy and homicidal before hand?
http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/holmes-psychiatrist-warned-of-threat-before-attack
Hmmm so if the Campus Police did something to PROTECT the citizenry we might not be having this discussion!
It just goes to show that the police can't/won't protect us!
I wonder how this small tidbit of information would have swayed the recent Colorado gun control discussion.
I foresee a large lawsuit against the campus police department for that little tid-bit.
In their defense I'm sure that elsewhere on campus there was underage drinking and what would now be legal marijuana smoking going on.
And the never ending amount of parking tickets that university cops love to give out.