View Full Version : Top secret: $80B a year for food stamps, but feds won’t reveal what’s purchased
By Luke Rosiak
The Washington Times (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jun/24/top-secret-what-food-stamps-buy/)
Sunday, June 24, 2012
Americans spend $80 billion each year financing food stamps for the poor, but the country has no idea where or how the money is spent.
Food stamps can be spent on goods ranging from candy to steak and are accepted at retailers from gas stations that primarily sell potato chips to fried-chicken restaurants. And as the amount spent on food stamps has more than doubled in recent years, the amount of food stamps laundered into cash has increased dramatically, government statistics show.
But the government won’t say which stores are doing the most business in food stamps, and even it doesn’t know what kinds of food those taxpayer dollars buy.
Dozer523
06-25-2012, 11:42
But the government won’t say which stores are doing the most business in food stamps, and even it doesn’t know what kinds of food those taxpayer dollars buy.
Because it is nobody's GD business that's why.
Whether, you, I, him or her, or we like it.
It is a set dollar amount, there are restrictions. There is advice on what would be best to purchase. But, that's it, whether, you, I, him or her, or we like it.
Not mentioned here is the depolrable fact that grocery chains Do NOT establish their stores in the neighborhood that are the homes of most recipients. And if you don't have the money for a food pyramid dinner you probably don't have the money for a car. And if you do have a cadillac well then go the distance and REALLY flaunt it with steak and lobster every meal.
but that's just my opinion, What do you think? :)
Rhod7520
06-25-2012, 11:58
A friend once confided in me that he received far more assistance in food stamps (card) than his family could ever possibly eat. He and his 'ole lady got away with using the surplus to buy a great deal of booze whenever they bought groceries at an unnamed major grocery chain store every month. It would be better if the program was run more like WIC. If you want to request public aid to help put food on the table then you will take a nutrition class every time you have to register/re-register and will only be able to purchase approved food items, with limited Dollar amounts in each food category.
The stamps have been or are being replaced by a reloadable card that is swiped just like a credit or debit card. There is even a choice to withdraw cash. I believe that is for other expenses such as gas, or a taxi/bus fare to the store if needed. What good is the card if one can't get to the store?
At least that is how a buddy of mine explained it when he applied. He's a single dad raising two kids, and the hoops he has to jump through, with delays and automatic appeals...all for about $90.00 a month is what I believe he might be eligible for. Every little bit helps...providing he is approved.
A friend once confided in me that he received far more assistance in food stamps (card) than his family could ever possibly eat. He and his 'ole lady got away with using the surplus to buy a great deal of booze whenever they bought groceries at an unnamed major grocery chain store every month. It would be better if the program was run more like WIC. If you want to request public aid to help put food on the table then you will take a nutrition class every time you have to register/re-register and will only be able to purchase approved food items, with limited Dollar amounts in each food category.
Sure create more red tape, and more government jobs (teachers, administrators, and enforcement agents) with fat benefits and pensions..... which will accomplish nothing, and spend more of the taxpayer's dollars...like Florida's drug testing for welfare recipients.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/florida-didnt-save-money-by-drug-testing-welfare-recipients-data-shows/1225721
If we say it is okay to track one group's spending habits because they're using funds from .GOV, what is to keep that same logic from being applied to other groups and other activities?
If we say "yes, let's center access to public resources around the recipients' best interests," who should define those interests? What is to stop municipal and state governments from extending this logic? Do we want governments charging motorists for using public roads during hours of peak demand for the drivers' own good? Are we ready to pay for parking everywhere at all times?
Rob_Frey
06-25-2012, 12:36
How much Big Brother is too much Big Brother???
This is kind of like my husband paying child support to the tune of $1935 a month. On top of the same amount for alimony. We knew she wasn't using the money for the kids because we were still paying for school lunches, extra cirriculars, etc. But the court says she doesn't have to justify her expenditures to anyone. We don't like it, but there it is.
ZonieDiver
06-25-2012, 12:45
Sure create more red tape, and more government jobs (teachers, administrators, and enforcement agents) with fat benefits and pensions..... which will accomplish nothing, and spend more of the taxpayer's dollars...like Florida's drug testing for welfare recipients.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/florida-didnt-save-money-by-drug-testing-welfare-recipients-data-shows/1225721
Exactly! If we really want to assist the less fortunate - and let's be honest, we'll never get all people to make good economic decisions... as 'we' define 'good' - no matter what 'we' do - why not just incorporate the tax proposals of my beloved "Uncle Milty"? (No, not the one on the left, the one on the right!)
A flat tax... with the "negative income tax" rolled into it. The IRS, which we already have, could 'administer' the program (and could still be shrunk in personnel due to the simplification of the tax code)... and all the other BS could be done away with (Okay, most of the other BS.... oh, alright, a lot of the other BS... crap, I give up, SOME of the other BS!)
Perfect? No! Much better? You betcha.
Uncle Milties:
Rhod7520
06-25-2012, 12:50
Sure create more red tape, and more government jobs (teachers, administrators, and enforcement agents) with fat benefits and pensions..... which will accomplish nothing, and spend more of the taxpayer's dollars...like Florida's drug testing for welfare recipients.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/florida-didnt-save-money-by-drug-testing-welfare-recipients-data-shows/1225721
True. I'd do away with the whole thing, and many other government aid programs altogether if I could. I feel dirty even getting any help from the VA. That's why I vote for Ron Paul. <-- I'm one of those crazies.
Stargazer
06-25-2012, 12:51
We are fast becoming a nation of grasshoppers.
That's why I vote for Ron Paul. <-- I'm one of those crazies.
A vote for Ron Paul is a vote for Obama.
Can you "crazies" (as you call yourselves) not understand the logic behind that?
A vote for Ron Paul is a vote for [the incumbent].
Can you "crazies" (as you call yourselves) not understand the logic behind that?
I agree.
Ron Paul not only diverts votes away from the GOP, he also side tracks the debate over issues by suggesting policies that are not sustainable.
ZonieDiver
06-25-2012, 13:00
A vote for Ron Paul is a vote for Obama.
Can you "crazies" (as you call yourselves) not understand the logic behind that?
No. That's part of the joy of being crazy!
DIYPatriot
06-25-2012, 13:04
but that's just my opinion, What do you think? :)
I have mixed feelings on this one. From a very poor college student's POV (back when I was one), if not for WIC we would've been hurting. I can only speak for my situation. I worked 3 jobs around the clock and put both me and my wife through school. We had a baby at 19, obviously unplanned, and we did our best. I felt horrible accepting aid and vowed to repay it (and did). Some of it was repaid with my tax dollars. However, we never were on food stamps/EBT cards, though I knew some who were.
To this day, I'm thankful a program such as this exists in order to help those that want and desire to help themselves be a better contributing member to society. For those that abuse it? I think they're very sorry people. For every one of them that abuse it I think of those who really need it and how they feel guilty asking for help and being lumped into that status-quo.
With respect to your remark about grocery stores in bad areas of town, you're onto something there. When we had gas in our car we drove it to doctor appointments or the grocery store. I remember using my bike rack and backpack to carry whatever I could in order to make the 5 mile ride back home from the store. Got a killer workout from it, though!
My .000000002
......Not mentioned here is the depolrable fact that grocery chains Do NOT establish their stores in the neighborhood that are the homes of most recipients. ................
Dude, what rock have you been living under. "Most recipients" are all around us. Both Food Lions within a mile of my house do a booming business with "food stamps" - and it ain't called "Food Stamps" anymore. They are called EBT Cards.
And I've mentioned it before on this BB. Most of the time the EBT Card users are driving a better car than mine. It's a little private survey of mine.
And yeah, a lot of junk food items are being purchased.
At least the WIC checks are for specific items.
True. I'd do away with the whole thing, and many other government aid programs altogether if I could. I feel dirty even getting any help from the VA. That's why I vote for Ron Paul. <-- I'm one of those crazies.
Why are you getting help from the VA if you feel dirty about it? No one is forcing you to take that money are they?
With respect to your remark about grocery stores in bad areas of town, you're onto something there. If one wants to get a sense of the different set of challenges residents in different parts of town face, doing comparisons of food prices and quality can be an eye opener.
Out in L.A., one will find a noticeable range in quality, quantity, and costs at grocery stores depending upon location. IME/IMO, what is especially alarming is the lackadaisical approach stores in lower income areas have when it comes to taking products off the shelves once they hit their expiration/sell by dates.
My point here is that when discussing issues of poverty, it isn't just about the "bad" decisions poor people make.
DIYPatriot
06-25-2012, 13:37
IME/IMO, what is especially alarming is the lackadaisical approach stores in lower income areas have when it comes to taking products off the shelves once they hit their expiration/sell by dates.
My point here is that when discussing issues of poverty, it isn't just about the "bad" decisions poor people make.
If it is worth doing, then people will make the decision to do what they feel is right and they'll do it by all means necessary. Some just simply don't have that option if they're a shut-in. From my experiences of working with those less fortunate, I've seen that aspect of it first hand. Especially with truly disabled citizens.
Did I enjoy trekking across town in the heat/cold/rain? Hell no. Well, on some days the rain was fun b/c it made me feel like I was 8 again. I would've given just about anything to have had a decent place near an apartment that was $225/month in rent. But my situation was what it was and I did my best with what I had. In a way, you could say it helped build some character. I've never been the type to take a bad situation and feel sorry for myself. My job was and is to find a better way.
And I've mentioned it before on this BB. Most of the time the EBT Card users are driving a better car than mine. It's a little private survey of mine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjhPMeEGImQ
Badger52
06-25-2012, 13:48
If we say it is okay to track one group's spending habits because they're using funds from .GOV, what is to keep that same logic from being applied to other groups and other activities?Yep. No offense to Ed Roth (RIP) but you mean like Big Daddy in Big Apple regulating the size of your beverage, or because I'm too stupid to know when I should use an incandescent vs. flourescent lightbulb, the ultimate collective "we know best" approach?
(just for starters, because I find it amazing that people still think you can legislate behavior.)
BTW, how in the hell would .GOV know exactly what was bought?
I think there are places where legislatures only meet for a short time, every couple of years. That has some goodness to it in terms of focusing on what's needed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjhPMeEGImQ
If I had known that you were a fan of hip hop, I wouldn't have opened that link.;)
:DIf I had known that you were a fan of hip hop, I wouldn't have opened that link.;)
lol Ol' school, yo.
ZonieDiver
06-25-2012, 14:35
I think there are places where legislatures only meet for a short time, every couple of years. That has some goodness to it in terms of focusing on what's needed.
Simply ban air-conditioning in DC, and you'll see a mass exodus as summer arrives, and it'll be a ghost town until fall temperatures arrive.
That was easy, wasn't it?
Simply ban air-conditioning in DC, and you'll see a mass exodus as summer arrives, and it'll be a ghost town until fall temperatures arrive.
That was easy, wasn't it?
Ban reason, and it'll be deserted 'til November. :D
ZonieDiver
06-25-2012, 14:43
Ban reason, and it'll be deserted 'til November. :D
And after that, it'll only be about one quarter full! :D
The Reaper
06-25-2012, 17:18
Because it is nobody's GD business that's why.
Whether, you, I, him or her, or we like it.
It is a set dollar amount, there are restrictions. There is advice on what would be best to purchase. But, that's it, whether, you, I, him or her, or we like it.
Not mentioned here is the depolrable fact that grocery chains Do NOT establish their stores in the neighborhood that are the homes of most recipients. And if you don't have the money for a food pyramid dinner you probably don't have the money for a car. And if you do have a cadillac well then go the distance and REALLY flaunt it with steak and lobster every meal.
but that's just my opinion, What do you think? :)
I live in a rural community of roughly 10,000 residents. There are at least six grocery stores within five miles of my house. Varity ranges from an IGA to a Fresh Market store. Poor, rich, all get the same rights to live where they want and shop where they wish. I know no one the area without transportation. There is at least one car in front of every home in the projects.
You do realize that in a free market society, grocery chains build stores where they make the most money and have the least risk?
Given the availability of fresh foods year round across the nation, I see little reason not to cook, if you have the time and inclination.
Now here is one for you. Thank you, sucker...I mean, American taxpayer.
TR
the nation, I see little reason not to cook, if you have the time and inclination.
Now here is one for you. Thank you, sucker...I mean, American taxpayer.
TR
lol Must have paid cash for the Dom. :D
Badger52
06-26-2012, 08:22
Simply ban air-conditioning in DC, and you'll see a mass exodus as summer arrives, and it'll be a ghost town until fall temperatures arrive.
That was easy, wasn't it?Nice. :cool:
How come I was eligible for food stamps and WIC assistance in 1983-1986 as a SP4 and SP5? I could see the WIC because of my 3 children but why was my pay set so low that I qualified for the food stamps?
I wonder how many times and for what items is the EBT card used for at the commissary on CONUS posts?
BTW, we never took the food stamps, too embarrassed, I guess. I sold personal possessions I had acquired as a civilian cop before I enlisted to pay my bills. It even included my wedding ring. Came home from the pawn shop with the money and found that my wife had already sold HER wedding ring and engagement set!
SHAME on us that we don't take care of our lower enlisted folks. At least, back then...
BTW, how in the hell would .GOV know exactly what was bought?By having corporations that accept EBT payments to build and maintain databases that can generate reports sorted by method of payment (cash, credit, debit, ebt), then user, then inventory ID#.
Establishments that issue membership cards for free and offer discounts to card holders do so because those cards allow opportunities for enhanced bean-counting techniques. John Doe likes to shop at this store on this day of the week at that hour and he likes to use his Visa card to buy x,y, and z. He lives in a zip code where the median income is H, the average age is Y, and the most common ethnicity is Q. From there, one can make decisions about inventory, price points, technology, and infrastructure. (This zip code has a lot of affluent urbanite hipsters who like use debit cards to buy fancy dan kitty litter in bulk so we need to provide carts that help them load up and faster credit card processing machines so we can speed their purchases. That zip code has a lot of poor people who aren't going to buy John Whorfin Cream Soda so we'll stock generics and not worry about the level of customer service.)
BTW, how in the hell would .GOV know exactly what was bought?
Major grocery stores operate on an extremely thin profit margin and track such data among their customers. Developing and retaining "customer loyalty" is a major effort on their part - ever wonder about that "reward card" you use when making purchases? ;)
It would be an easy shift for the dot-gov ffolkes to do the same.
And re: Post #30 - So, you were drafted, too? If not - :boohoo
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
And re: Post #30 - So, you were drafted, too? If not - :boohoo
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
lol Damn! Maximum effective deployment of the boo-hoo smiley. :D
Yep, that was about the same answer as I got back then, sorta "If the US Army wanted you to have a wife and three kids, they'd have issued them to you at CIF." i think I have my answer why the pay scales are so low.
How come I was eligible for food stamps and WIC assistance in 1983-1986 as a SP4 and SP5? I could see the WIC because of my 3 children but why was my pay set so low that I qualified for the food stamps?
I wonder how many times and for what items is the EBT card used for at the commissary on CONUS posts?
BTW, we never took the food stamps, too embarrassed, I guess. I sold personal possessions I had acquired as a civilian cop before I enlisted to pay my bills. It even included my wedding ring. Came home from the pawn shop with the money and found that my wife had already sold HER wedding ring and engagement set!
SHAME on us that we don't take care of our lower enlisted folks. At least, back then...
Why should the Army have paid you more than every other swinging Richard who enlisted at the same pay grade, because you had a wife and 3 children? Did your LEO job pay you more (than a single cop) because you had a wife and 3 children?
Isn't anything extra you were given because you had a wife and kids actually "Federal Welfare"?
USANick7
06-27-2012, 09:54
Top secret: $80B a year for food stamps, but feds won’t reveal what’s purchased
I know whats purchased...votes
At what point should enlisted soldiers be allowed to marry and procreate? At one point in Army history enlisted soldiers DID have to get permission to marry.
Should our soldiers have to live on Federal Welfare?
Thank you for returning to topic. Ad hominem arguments lend more heat than light.
Clerk loses job over stand
http://www.sentinelsource.com/news/local/clerk-loses-job-over-stand/article_87627ed5-5d4e-5ff0-a781-f14deb034771.html
This is an interesting story in a number of ways. First it lays out there are two kinds of EBT Cards. One used for food - and the other used for anything the individual wants - WTF - booze, smokes, casinos whatever. Remember the stories of how much EBT money was spent in casinos a few years back?
Second was the interaction between the clerk and the young man. Did he have ID - not just the EBT card? Got to prove your age or look like an old fart.
Third - tell me just why my tax money is being used to buy smokes for some kid who should be working to earn money to buy his own?
".........Whiton said a young man came in to the store to buy two packs or cigarettes on May 29. When she asked him for his ID, he handed her his EBT card..............................."
And Zauber "......At what point should enlisted soldiers be allowed to marry and procreate.............." when they can afford to. Just because everyone else in your family might drive a Ferrari doesn't mean the Army has to give you enough money to buy your own.
USANick7
06-27-2012, 11:49
At what point should enlisted soldiers be allowed to marry and procreate? At one point in Army history enlisted soldiers DID have to get permission to marry.
Should our soldiers have to live on Federal Welfare?
Thank you for returning to topic. Ad hominem arguments lend more heat than light.
I think this should come down to a cost benefit analysis for the military and its mission...
If the military believes it is beneficial to the service for soldiers to be married and have children then they can offer more pay or other forms of incentives for it...but I don’t think the government "owes" somebody something purely because they are married or have kids.
And I was a young married soldier as well...got married as an E2, but knew that I wasn’t entitled to anything that wasn’t already permitted by my contract.
Having said that I do believe that strong families are conducive to a strong military.
I went from 15 shekels and free draft a night playing guitar down at the Trap Room in Richardson, TX 3 nights a week to free room and board and 343 glorious greenbacks a month! I was tickled. :D
At what point should enlisted soldiers be allowed to marry and procreate? At one point in Army history enlisted soldiers DID have to get permission to marry.
Should our soldiers have to live on Federal Welfare?
Thank you for returning to topic. Ad hominem arguments lend more heat than light.
Please tell me..... why should an individual (employee) with dependents be paid more than one who is single, and doing the same job?
When I was single and working for a major international corporation (with better than average benefits) a coworker (married w/5 kids) complained that he was having to pay for eyeglasses, and other medical expenses that weren't fully covered. My response: The the company is paying 100% of your health insurance coverage just as they do mine....yours covers 7 people, while mine covers just 1, so quit your bitching or pick your whiny ass up and go back where you came from (Sweden) because I'm helping to pay for your wife and kids, and you don't hear me complaining about it.
Thank you all for your cogent and thoughtful replies to my point. The thrust of my argument is/was that food stamps should be for those at or below the poverty line. Point 2 is that NO soldier can be expected to perform at maximum effectiveness if employed at the poverty line. Retention plummets in that environment and lessens mission effectiveness.
Regarding the receipt posted for lobster & steak purchased with an EBT card...the perpetrator was reselling the merchandise for 50% of the retail price. He was arrested and charged with food stamp trafficking, a felony. Righteous bust.
I'm still waiting for that Ferrari. Teachers get paid so much nowadays that I'm just waiting for the right color to come into stock.
..........The thrust of my argument is/was that food stamps should be for those at or below the poverty line..................
What is poverty? Where is the poverty line?
What is the cut off for the Earned Income Tax Credit? Believe me - the "poor" know what it is.
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/data/threshld/index.html
At what point should enlisted soldiers be allowed to marry and procreate? At one point in Army history enlisted soldiers DID have to get permission to marry.
Should our soldiers have to live on Federal Welfare?
Thank you for returning to topic. Ad hominem arguments lend more heat than light.
As with any job, IMHO, if you aren't getting paid enough to feed a family, then maybe you should think twice about starting a family at that particular time.
Just because they have the ability to start a family young, doesn't necessarily mean they should do it.
My BFF's son is married to a AF 2-striper. When it was just the two of them, they were doing ok. Now that they have 2 little rug rats they are learning that children are a lot more expensive than they thought, and a puts a serious crimp on their "lifestyle".
Don't get me wrong, they love their kids, but I hear the same shit from them all the time, the AF doesn't pay me enough. Well maybe not for 4 people, but you were fine with 2. You are the ones who decided to bring two more mouths to feed into the equation, not uncle sugar.
greenberetTFS
06-27-2012, 12:41
Thank you all for your cogent and thoughtful replies to my point. The thrust of my argument is/was that food stamps should be for those at or below the poverty line. Point 2 is that NO soldier can be expected to perform at maximum effectiveness if employed at the poverty line. Retention plummets in that environment and lessens mission effectiveness.
Regarding the receipt posted for lobster & steak purchased with an EBT card...the perpetrator was reselling the merchandise for 50% of the retail price. He was arrested and charged with food stamp trafficking, a felony. Righteous bust.
I'm still waiting for that Ferrari. Teachers get paid so much nowadays that I'm just waiting for the right color to come into stock.
Young tiger,you just shot yourself in the foot,wait until some former QP's who are now teachers or retired teachers explain to you the error of that statement..........:eek:
Big Teddy :munchin
Marauder06
06-27-2012, 12:49
I think this should come down to a cost benefit analysis for the military and its mission...
If the military believes it is beneficial to the service for soldiers to be married and have children then they can offer more pay or other forms of incentives for it...but I don’t think the government "owes" somebody something purely because they are married or have kids.
And I was a young married soldier as well...got married as an E2, but knew that I wasn’t entitled to anything that wasn’t already permitted by my contract.
Having said that I do believe that strong families are conducive to a strong military.
Good points.
I think of the BAH "with dependents" rate as a retention incentive; a little extra pay may help Soldiers stay in the service vs. bailing for a (hopefully) higher-paying job to finance the added dependents.
Also, I think Soldiers with dependents may be more inclined to stay in the service because they have family depending on them for support.
I haven't done the math, but it might be cheaper for the Army to shell out the BAH to help keep servicemembers in than it is to go through multiple "recruit/train/retain/pay for benefits" iterations for frequent backfills.
ZonieDiver
06-27-2012, 12:51
Young tiger,you just shot yourself in the foot,wait until some former QP's who are now teachers or retired teachers explain to you the error of that statement..........:eek:
Big Teddy :munchin
Big Teddy,
I think he was "using pink" when he made that statement... without actually using pink (if you get my drift).
That said, except for my first few years as a teacher (back when we actually had CHALK boards!), I believe I was fairly remunerated for my efforts. I was always given opportunities to increase my income, or not. Some of those opportunities, I chose to pursue. Others, I let slip away after doing a cost-benefits analysis.
MOO, in most urban areas, teachers are fairly paid. We are not as well-paid as police officers or fire fighters... but we don't have to wear body armor or run into burning buildings, either. And, if I had wanted the glorious salaries they received (I'm not using pink either, though I should... just too lazy), I could have gone to the police academy or been adopted by a family of firefighters (which seems to be the ONLY way to get one of those jobs anymore).
As a teacher-in-training, I put off my marriage until I had the degree AND a contract. I married at age 26. We put off having our first child until I was 30. "Ya pays yer money... ya takes yer chances."
According to the data supplied, the poverty line for a head of household with a spouse and 3 children is $27979 a year.
Current pay scales show that to cross over that threshold one would have to be an E-6 over 6 years time in service. We are still failing to provide for those soldiers making a sacrifice. Retention of good personnel will remain a problem.
Of course, my gubmint tells me that the war will soon be over, Gitmo will be closed and everyone can go back to singing Kumbaya while hugging and singing the Coke theme. We won't need those mid-career soldiers.
Thank you for the compliment of the appellation "Young tiger", Sir. I am now on my 7th year as a teacher in the public school system and only 7 more years until retirement (They keep moving that goalpost, too). It has been decades since I was called they young anything. My wife will get a kick out of that. We're at the hospital awaiting grandchild Number 10.
And I'm getting paid more as a public school teacher than I made as a police patrolman or investigator for the County Sheriff. We don't pay our public servants enough either but that is out of this lane of fire.
Stargazer
06-27-2012, 12:53
Clerk loses job over stand
http://www.sentinelsource.com/news/local/clerk-loses-job-over-stand/article_87627ed5-5d4e-5ff0-a781-f14deb034771.html
This is an interesting story in a number of ways. First it lays out there are two kinds of EBT Cards. One used for food - and the other used for anything the individual wants - WTF - booze, smokes, casinos whatever. Remember the stories of how much EBT money was spent in casinos a few years back?
Second was the interaction between the clerk and the young man. Did he have ID - not just the EBT card? Got to prove your age or look like an old fart.
Third - tell me just why my tax money is being used to buy smokes for some kid who should be working to earn money to buy his own?
".........Whiton said a young man came in to the store to buy two packs or cigarettes on May 29. When she asked him for his ID, he handed her his EBT card..............................."
And Zauber "......At what point should enlisted soldiers be allowed to marry and procreate.............." when they can afford to. Just because everyone else in your family might drive a Ferrari doesn't mean the Army has to give you enough money to buy your own.
We've come full-circle back to the title of this thread... it would make taxpayers more knowledgeable and government accountable.
Thank you all for your cogent and thoughtful replies to my point. The thrust of my argument is/was that food stamps should be for those at or below the poverty line. Point 2 is that NO soldier can be expected to perform at maximum effectiveness if employed at the poverty line. Retention plummets in that environment and lessens mission effectiveness.
Regarding the receipt posted for lobster & steak purchased with an EBT card...the perpetrator was reselling the merchandise for 50% of the retail price. He was arrested and charged with food stamp trafficking, a felony. Righteous bust.
I'm still waiting for that Ferrari. Teachers get paid so much nowadays that I'm just waiting for the right color to come into stock.
You seem seek employment in fields that don't allow you obtain the lifestyle you would like.
When I was in BCT (E-2) we were paid less than a $100/month...Going Airborne got you $50 /month extra. On payday, there were married guys with kids who didn't receive enough to pay for haircuts, or have their fatigues washed, starched, and pressed for the entire month, because the bulk of their pay was sent home to their family. A lot of them wouldn't have been in the Army by choice, but joined and were serving because of the draft.
If you needed more money...you should have gone AIRBORNE!
ZonieDiver
06-27-2012, 13:06
According to the data supplied, the poverty line for a head of household with a spouse and 3 children is $27979 a year.
Current pay scales show that to cross over that threshold one would have to be an E-6 over 6 years time in service. We are still failing to provide for those soldiers making a sacrifice. Retention of good personnel will remain a problem.
Of course, my gubmint tells me that the war will soon be over, Gitmo will be closed and everyone can go back to singing Kumbaya while hugging and singing the Coke theme. We won't need those mid-career soldiers.
I'm fuzzy on your math. A quick check of 2012 pay scales revealed that an E-6, over 6 would receive $2886/month or $34,632 annually. (Granted, it was a US Navy chart... but I don't think they get extra for clanking those anchors.:D)
I used the BAH calculator (and pretended I was in USAF at Luke AFB... but those zoomies MAY get more. Those aviator glasses are expensive! ;)) It showed that an E-6 with dependents would get $1,527/month or $18,324 annually.
That totals to: $62,956 annually.
Maybe MY math is fuzzy, but it seems those are not exactly poverty wages.
YMMV:munchin
My BFF's son is married to a AF 2-striper.
.
I read that as "My BFF's son is married to an AF 2 Stripper!!!":eek:
According to the data supplied, the poverty line for a head of household with a spouse and 3 children is $27979 a year.
Current pay scales show that to cross over that threshold one would have to be an E-6 over 6 years time in service. We are still failing to provide for those soldiers making a sacrifice. Retention of good personnel will remain a problem.
Of course, my gubmint tells me that the war will soon be over, Gitmo will be closed and everyone can go back to singing Kumbaya while hugging and singing the Coke theme. We won't need those mid-career soldiers.
Unless that family was present before he joined, no one is failing to provide for those soldiers, other than themselves. And if the family did exist, maybe they should have done a little bit of research on pay before they joined.
I remember the days when I was young, and my dad a SSgt at the time, and my mom as an RN would have about $5 at the end of the month extra. They would take us kids to McD for a cheeseburger. No fries, no coke, a cheeseburger. Never once heard my dad complain about not making enough. He and my mom made it work because they are the ones who decided to have kids.
I read that as "My BFF's son is married to an AF 2 Stripper!!!":eek:
:eek: :D
ZonieDiver
06-27-2012, 13:14
I'm fuzzy on your math. A quick check of 2012 pay scales revealed that an E-6, over 6 would receive $2886/month or $34,632 annually. (Granted, it was a US Navy chart... but I don't think they get extra for clanking those anchors.:D)
I used the BAH calculator (and pretended I was in USAF at Luke AFB... but those zoomies MAY get more. Those aviator glasses are expensive! ;)) It showed that an E-6 with dependents would get $1,527/month or $18,324 annually.
That totals to: $62,956 annually.
Maybe MY math is fuzzy, but it seems those are not exactly poverty wages.
YMMV:munchin
Additionally, since you didn't include BAH... just base pay... I'll include this:
The quoted figure for a "head of household with spouse and 3 children was $29,979, which translates to $2,332/month.
Base Pay only:
E-6 over 2 = $2,318
E-5 over 3 = $2,375
E-4 over 6 = $2,363
However, I don't think it is fair to count the children in one example, and omit them from the other.
Good points.
I think of the BAH "with dependents" rate as a retention incentive; a little extra pay may help Soldiers stay in the service vs. bailing for a (hopefully) higher-paying job to finance the added dependents.
Also, I think Soldiers with dependents may be more inclined to stay in the service because they have family depending on them for support.
I haven't done the math, but it might be cheaper for the Army to shell out the BAH to help keep servicemembers in than it is to go through multiple "recruit/train/retain/pay for benefits" iterations for frequent backfills.
If they leave before qualifying for retirement....it saves Uncle Suger beaucoup dollars.
If they leave before qualifying for retirement....it saves Uncle Suger beaucoup dollars.
Good point. Hence the changes.
Marauder06
06-27-2012, 13:24
According to the data supplied, the poverty line for a head of household with a spouse and 3 children is $27979 a year.
Current pay scales show that to cross over that threshold one would have to be an E-6 over 6 years time in service. We are still failing to provide for those soldiers making a sacrifice. Retention of good personnel will remain a problem.
...
...or maybe people could choose not to have so many dependents until they can afford to pay for them? ;)
Your statistics intrigued me so I checked them out, and came out with something different. How are you coming to that conclusion about E6 over six? My figures came up with E4 over 2 easily exceeding the poverty threshold:
This site (http://www.familiesusa.org/resources/tools-for-advocates/guides/federal-poverty-guidelines.html) says that the poverty level for a family of five is $27,010 a year.
With that many dependents, I'm assuming that the person in question has been in the Army for a couple of years, I'm going to go with a baseline estimate of E4 over 2 years. That makes his base pay... what, $2046 per month (http://www.navycs.com/2012-military-pay-chart.html)?
Then you add in BAH (https://www.defensetravel.dod.mil/site/bahCalc.cfm), which varies by location, I'm going to assume this particular individual is assigned to Fort Bragg and has a Zip Code of 28314. According to this site, that gets him $1,023 or so in BAH (http://www.defensetravel.dod.mil/pdcgi/bah/bahsrch.cgi) w/dependents. Add to that a BAS (http://www.navycs.com/military-pay.html)of $348 or so. That doesn't count any other special pays, like Airborne, Hostile Fire, CZTE, etc.
2046 + 1023 + 348 = 3417 a month before taxes, x 12 months = $41,004. Assuming he has to pay taxes on all of that, he will pay approx. $5500 in taxes (http://www.smartmoney.com/personal-finance/taxes/whats-your-average-tax-rate-9548/). So if my math is correct (no guarantees there) and my sources are accurate, wouldn't that leave an E4 over two, with four dependents, who only received base pay, BAH, and BAS with $35,500+ for the year? Not making a mint by any means, but well above poverty level, right?:confused:
ZonieDiver
06-27-2012, 13:25
If they leave before qualifying for retirement....it saves Uncle Suger beaucoup dollars.
And replaces old, broken-down, wise-to-the-ways soldiers with new, young, strong, impressionable ones!:lifter
DIYPatriot
06-27-2012, 13:27
Clerk loses job over stand
http://www.sentinelsource.com/news/local/clerk-loses-job-over-stand/article_87627ed5-5d4e-5ff0-a781-f14deb034771.html
....
Third - tell me just why my tax money is being used to buy smokes for some kid who should be working to earn money to buy his own?
Federally subsidized cigarettes? Wow. And how much federal $$$ is spent on healthcare for lung cancer and other illnesses related to cigarettes? Sounds like the wolf feeding his prey to me.
I read that as "My BFF's son is married to an AF 2 Stripper!!!":eek:
I read it as "AF 2-striper", but added a 'p' afterwards for my personal satisfaction. :D
If there's is little to no turnover, then how do you fill the low level jobs, which get the job done at lower cost, and provides the pool of younger personnel to fill the higher skill level positions. Fresh blood is what keeps the Army's heart pumping.
USANick7
06-27-2012, 13:52
I'm fuzzy on your math. A quick check of 2012 pay scales revealed that an E-6, over 6 would receive $2886/month or $34,632 annually. (Granted, it was a US Navy chart... but I don't think they get extra for clanking those anchors.:D)
I used the BAH calculator (and pretended I was in USAF at Luke AFB... but those zoomies MAY get more. Those aviator glasses are expensive! ;)) It showed that an E-6 with dependents would get $1,527/month or $18,324 annually.
That totals to: $62,956 annually.
Maybe MY math is fuzzy, but it seems those are not exactly poverty wages.
YMMV:munchin
To add to your point I had to make roughly 25K more a year in the private sector to break even with my take home pay when I was active duty...and I got out after 11 years as an E7. The tax free pay and benefits really do add up to a signifigiant amount, which is why you cant compare base pay to base pay.
Im not suggesting that the pay in the military is enough across teh board (although it was for me)...in fact I think it is damn ridiculous that the government thinks it can afford to lavish more pay increases and benefits on worthless unionized sectors of the government while cutting defense.
Second was the interaction between the clerk and the young man.
IMO, there's a difference between standing on one's principle and standing one's crank. (Or so I've heard. I've never confused the two. Ever.:o)
The customer is not always right, but the customer is always your customer. Until he decides to be someone else's customer.
My $0.02.
Dozer523
06-27-2012, 14:15
I'm fuzzy on your math. A quick check of 2012 pay scales revealed that an E-6, . . . That totals to: $62,956 annually. Maybe MY math is fuzzy, but it seems those are not exactly poverty wages.
YMMV:munchinTo put this in perspective
In 1990 as an O-3 with 10 years I cleared $3100 mo (including BHA and jump pay) I thought I was rich and marveled that "I get $100 a DAY even for Saturday and Sunday." In November with all the training holidays I ferlt likea thief except when I was in Egypt -- then I marvelled that I got to go for "free".
In 1972 I got my first summer job and I earned $1.60/hr. Back then I could get 2 cheeseburgers, frys and a Coke AND change from my dollar at Micky Dee's. Gas was 33 cents. I thought that was amazing. I was also amazed that I even got paid for being a Life Guard.
My Dad made me buy a 25 dollar US Savings bond every paycheck. About 2005 my Mom found those bonds and returned them to me (Gawd I hated buying those things!) They had maxed out three times and the $17.50 investment was worth $75 each. As a reporting to FT Benning 2LT (I really thought I was rich then after being a poor ROTC Student) the Finance guy tried to talk me into setting up a $100 allottment to Savings Bonds. Wish I had, I never would have missed it.
I read it as "AF 2-striper", but added a 'p' afterwards for my personal satisfaction. :DI've seen some of her friends well. . . maybe . . . hmmm hmmm hmmmm.:D
.
I've seen some of her friends well. . . maybe . . . hmmm hmmm hmmmm.:D
smarty pants!!!!