View Full Version : Charlie Wilson's War
Roguish Lawyer
10-06-2004, 20:32
By a 60 Minutes producer named George Criles. I'm only about 1/4-way through, but it is very well written and interesting.
The gist of the book seems to be that the CIA really deserves a lot of credit for the Soviet failure in Afghanistan, and that two extremely colorful figures deserve the credit for what the CIA did -- Congressman Charles Wilson and CIA operative Gust Avrakotos. Wilson was a hard-partying womanizer from Texas who used his power on key House Appropriations subcommittees to increase US support for the mujaheddin. He also did a lot of other stuff one typically associates with the Executive Branch, like brokering arms deals between Israel and Pakistan. Avrakotos was a "rogue" CIA operations guy who helped Wilson. Very colorful guy who hated the Ivy League "cake eaters" at CIA and did not try to hide it.
I am looking forward to reading the rest and was going to wait to finish to post a review, but I know we have some folks who know a lot about Afghanistan here. Jimbo, I see from an old SOCNET post that you read it and liked it. I hope you'll say more here about the book. AL, have you read it? Anyone else?
Team Sergeant
10-06-2004, 20:45
The gist of the book seems to be that the CIA really deserves a lot of credit for the Soviet failure in Afghanistan, Anyone else?
Good for them...
I guess someone should take the credit...
TS
Quiet Professional
I'm reading a book on the exact same thing, "My Enemies Enemy."
Bloody good book, though I can't say I approve of some the things Wilson did as...recreational activites.
Like most everything, it's good to have a number of points of view. Charlie Wilson's war was definitely a great read. Out of all I've read on Afhganistan...I'd say the following build a pretty good picture once you've read them all and cross checked facts (Charlie Wilson's War, Soldiers of God, The Hidden War, and Holy War INC are well written and by far the easiest to read/enjoy):
American point of view:
-----------------------------
Charlie Wilson's War
Ghost Wars
Reporter's travels/POV (both American and Soviet):
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Soldiers of God
The Hidden War
Mujahideen POV:
----------------------
Afghan Guerrilla Warfare
Pakistan's ISI POV (at least the one brigadier):
-----------------------------------------------------------
Afghanistan The Bear Trap
Afghan related (Al Qaeda/Taliban centric):
-----------------------------------------------------
Holy War, Inc.
Taliban
9/11 Commission Report
Masterminds of Terror
Roguish Lawyer
10-06-2004, 21:41
None:
Thanks for the reply. I'd like it if you would put some more information in your profile. We like to know with whom we are conversing.
Roguish Lawyer
10-06-2004, 22:38
From the book site:
Charlie Wilson's War, the New York Times bestseller, has been purchased by Tom Hanks to make into a movie. Hanks intends to play the Texas Congressman himself.
For more information, go to:
http://movies.go.com/movies/C/charliewilsonswar_2004/index.html
I've just looked at my copy and it seems we're talking about the exact same book LOL. Just a different title.
D9 (RIP)
10-07-2004, 00:24
I'm reading this now and fast coming to the conclusion that Joann Herring deserves at least 50% of the credit.
Airbornelawyer
10-07-2004, 11:46
Once you're all finished, come back to me and I will factcheck it for you. I have a moderately good opinion of Charlie, but he takes credit for a lot of stuff other people (including close friends of mine) did and undervalues their contributions.
Oh, Tom Hanks as Charlie Wilson would be almost as miscast as Tom Hanks as Dick Winters (Maj. Winters threatening to walk from BoB aborted that).
Roguish Lawyer
10-29-2004, 09:59
Once you're all finished, come back to me and I will factcheck it for you. I have a moderately good opinion of Charlie, but he takes credit for a lot of stuff other people (including close friends of mine) did and undervalues their contributions.
OK, I'm done. :munchin
DunbarFC
10-29-2004, 11:37
I'd say also read "The Main Enemy" by Milt Bearden and "Ghost Wars" by Stephen Coll
Roguish Lawyer
11-07-2004, 17:57
AL:
Fact check? :munchin
RL, did you read GHOST WARS?
Roguish Lawyer
11-07-2004, 18:26
RL, did you read GHOST WARS?
No. Should I?
No. Should I?
I just started GHOST WARS, and wondered how it compared with CW's WAR.
Anyone out there read both of them?
DunbarFC
11-12-2004, 13:42
I'm just about done with Ghost Wars and I read Charlie Wilson
Reading CWW you'd think that he and his team won the thing by themselves
Ghost Wars expands out the view to cover more than Charlie and his ladies
Roguish Lawyer
11-12-2004, 16:58
AL? :munchin
Airbornelawyer
11-12-2004, 19:11
Reading CWW you'd think that he and his team won the thing by themselves
That is the first and most cogent criticism to be leveled at Charlie. No doubt, he and Chuck Schnabel and others in his circle played a big role, but there is a long list of players - the Phil Smiths, Mary Morins and others - who were at least as much in the mix, if not more. And of course, there were all those Afghans too.
Within Congress alone, Wilson was one of many - Gordon Humphrey, Bob Lagomarsino, Dana Rohrabacher, Dave Dreier, Don Ritter all played as big a role if not greater.
DunbarFC
11-14-2004, 16:52
Ghost Wars is also at least in my view very damning of Clinton and his foreign policy team ( or lack thereof ) and their failure to address the Taliban during their rise
In fact it can be inferred that in some small way they encouraged the Taliban's rise
Gives a good account of the proposed raids on Tarnak farm as well
UBL's time in Sudan is also covered as well as the CIA's watching of him which if you read Billy Waugh's book you know who those CIA contractors are :)
CommoGeek
11-15-2004, 10:11
I hate these threads..... I need to buy stock in Amazon as much as I'm buying lately. I'll have a 100 bucks in books flying in to Bagram by the end of this night.
Thanks a lot, PS.com.... LOL. ;)
CommoGeek
01-30-2005, 17:57
Bumping this to add my 2 pesos.
I've read Ghost Wars and am almost done with Charlie Wilson's War, Billy Waugh's book is next.
Ghost Wars is great, Coll did his homework. CWW among the criticisms listed previously have some glaring factual errors, easy things that should never have made it into the book. When I see things like that it makes me wonder how much of the book wasn't verified and I lose faith in it.
CWW is entertaining but so.... glaring over the top at times that it MAY be true but you'd think Wilson himself was the only congressman to do anything and the CIA totally staffed with incompetent bumbling idiots. Add to it the "blue collar James Bond" that defies all of the rules to make the resistance successful and you can picture a movie adaptation in the works with Vin Diesel as Gust and Jon Voight or someone similar as CW. Throw in a DUI, some cocaine, a Playboy bunny, and a bunch of skanks while an alcoholic saves the free world, topples the USSR, cures cancer, etc and you get the gist of the book.
Buy Ghost Wars, wait for CWW to make an appearance at a garage sale or in paperback.
DunbarFC
02-03-2005, 15:17
Bumping this to add my 2 pesos.
I've read Ghost Wars and am almost done with Charlie Wilson's War, Billy Waugh's book is next.
Ghost Wars is great, Coll did his homework. CWW among the criticisms listed previously have some glaring factual errors, easy things that should never have made it into the book. When I see things like that it makes me wonder how much of the book wasn't verified and I lose faith in it.
CWW is entertaining but so.... glaring over the top at times that it MAY be true but you'd think Wilson himself was the only congressman to do anything and the CIA totally staffed with incompetent bumbling idiots. Add to it the "blue collar James Bond" that defies all of the rules to make the resistance successful and you can picture a movie adaptation in the works with Vin Diesel as Gust and Jon Voight or someone similar as CW. Throw in a DUI, some cocaine, a Playboy bunny, and a bunch of skanks while an alcoholic saves the free world, topples the USSR, cures cancer, etc and you get the gist of the book.
Buy Ghost Wars, wait for CWW to make an appearance at a garage sale or in paperback.
Try and pick up "The Main Enemy" by Milt Bearden as well
It's a mass market paperback and should be pretty cheap used via amazon
EX-Gold Falcon
02-03-2005, 17:18
That is the first and most cogent criticism to be leveled at Charlie. No doubt, he and Chuck Schnabel and others in his circle played a big role, but there is a long list of players - the Phil Smiths, Mary Morins and others - who were at least as much in the mix, if not more. And of course, there were all those Afghans too.
Within Congress alone, Wilson was one of many - Gordon Humphrey, Bob Lagomarsino, Dana Rohrabacher, Dave Dreier, Don Ritter all played as big a role if not greater.
Andrew Eiva.
Kind of goofy but he did his bit to make a difference.
Travis
Airbornelawyer
02-03-2005, 18:43
Andrew Eiva.
Kind of goofy but he did his bit to make a difference.
TravisAndy Eiva did his bit. I suspect that, like Charlie Wilson, he would be much lower on my list of who made a difference than he would think he deserved to be, though he would be ahead of me, if that would be any consolation.
EX-Gold Falcon
02-04-2005, 11:47
Andy Eiva did his bit. I suspect that, like Charlie Wilson, he would be much lower on my list of who made a difference than he would think he deserved to be, though he would be ahead of me, if that would be any consolation.
His son is my Best Friend, so needless to say I've heard some pretty interesting stories about his father. West Point grad, former SF, congressional hearings (pushing for the intro of the Stinger missle) and when he spent time in a Paki prison for trumped-up espionage charges..
All in all though he is a true believer....
Travis
Roguish Lawyer
04-12-2005, 11:51
RL, did you read GHOST WARS?
I just started it. Really good so far. In case anyone missed it, it just won the Pulitzer Prize.
CommoGeek
04-12-2005, 20:18
I just started it. Really good so far. In case anyone missed it, it just won the Pulitzer Prize.
It is an excellent book. RL, I'd love to hear your take on it when you are done.
The gist of the book seems to be that the CIA really deserves a lot of credit for the Soviet failure in Afghanistan, and that two extremely colorful figures deserve the credit for what the CIA did -- Congressman Charles Wilson and CIA operative Gust Avrakotos..... Anyone else?
The joke in the early 80s was Q. "How do you spot an American in Afganistan?" A. "By the boots."
The Americans were real good at blending in but had a soft spot for good boots. Military boots being a dead give-away the favorites were Sears, etc hunting boots. As long as you saw um' from the knees up it was hard to tell. See the feet and you knew.
Now days no matter how long you grow your hair; your buff build, sun glasses and dew rag gives it all away :D .
Pete
Duckin' and runnin' for the bunker.
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=hP5oQ5hCOK&isbn=0802141242&itm=31
Has anyone read this book? I was in Barnes&Nobles the other day, and I saw this book, and it looked kinda interesting but I have a couple other books to read so I didn't buy it.
I've got it, albeit under a differant title. It's...interesting.
SnafuRacer
12-11-2005, 01:45
Socnet discussion (http://socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24733) if it helps. It's on my list once I get done with Friedman's books.
Roguish Lawyer
12-11-2005, 10:47
There's also the search button . . . :lifter
My bad, I thought I did do a search for it, but I did post it after a long night on Staff Duty, doing pushup's now.
Roguish Lawyer
12-12-2005, 08:56
My bad, I thought I did do a search for it, but I did post it after a long night on Staff Duty, doing pushup's now.
LOL
http://www.charliewilsonswar.net/
Trailer looks pretty good, hope it does better than all those anti-war movies hollywood has produced lately
Team Sergeant
11-02-2007, 09:43
That is the first and most cogent criticism to be leveled at Charlie. No doubt, he and Chuck Schnabel and others in his circle played a big role, but there is a long list of players - the Phil Smiths, Mary Morins and others - who were at least as much in the mix, if not more. And of course, there were all those Afghans too.
Within Congress alone, Wilson was one of many - Gordon Humphrey, Bob Lagomarsino, Dana Rohrabacher, Dave Dreier, Don Ritter all played as big a role if not greater.
:munchin