View Full Version : U.S. Troops Posed With Body Parts Of Afghan Bombers
82nd in the news - here we go again... :(
Richard :munchin
U.S. Troops Posed With Body Parts Of Afghan Bombers
LATimes, 18 Apr 2012
The paratroopers had their assignment: Check out reports that Afghan police had recovered the mangled remains of an insurgent suicide bomber. Try to get iris scans and fingerprints for identification.
The 82nd Airborne Division soldiers arrived at the police station in Afghanistan's Zabol province in February 2010. They inspected the body parts. Then the mission turned macabre: The paratroopers posed for photos next to Afghan police, grinning while some held — and others squatted beside — the corpse's severed legs.
A few months later, the same platoon was dispatched to investigate the remains of three insurgents who Afghan police said had accidentally blown themselves up. After obtaining a few fingerprints, they posed next to the remains, again grinning and mugging for photographs.
Two soldiers posed holding a dead man's hand with the middle finger raised. A soldier leaned over the bearded corpse while clutching the man's hand. Someone placed an unofficial platoon patch reading "Zombie Hunter" next to other remains and took a picture.
The Army launched a criminal investigation after the Los Angeles Times showed officials copies of the photos, which recently were given to the paper by a soldier from the division.
"It is a violation of Army standards to pose with corpses for photographs outside of officially sanctioned purposes," said George Wright, an Army spokesman. "Such actions fall short of what we expect of our uniformed service members in deployed areas."
Wright said that after the investigation, the Army would "take appropriate action" against those involved. Most of the soldiers in the photos have been identified, said Lt. Col. Margaret Kageleiry, an Army spokeswoman.
(Cont'd) http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-afghan-photos-20120418,0,5032601.story
Well that is what that unit and the Army along with the military gets for sending out a bunch out 18 to 20 year olds to do a grown UPS job. Like to see how many pictures ended up on social media sites. I feel every leader needs to be "FRIENDS" to their subordinates.
No one likes mud in their face. I'm surprised this didn't make the national news faster with the whole Colombian thing going on. More bad need for the military forces. From what is reported this happen during 82nd 2010 rotation.
Eagle5US
04-18-2012, 12:00
No doubt there will be some "validation" for the new CSM's tattoo policy as well with the one dude plastered full face and neck tattoo on proud display...:rolleyes:
69harley
04-18-2012, 12:21
The brigade CSM for that rotation is retired now and lives almost across the street from me. Will be interesting to hear his take on this event. The 82nd is very reactionary, will be interesting to se their knee-jerk reaction to this.
Honestly - they posed with dead enemy. So what? These guys are to be congratulated, not shunned. and we wonder why we have such "issues" with our vets.
How about when the decision is made to send these guys to freakin' kill the enemy, we actually applaud them for it instead of trying to apply some gentlemen's sense of cocktail-propriety to the savage business of killing.
Mustang Man
04-18-2012, 14:33
I'm sure those soldiers like the rest of us were givin the death by powerpoint of what NOT TO DO on a deployment. This being obviously one, especially after Abu Ghraib... At the same time JimP makes a very good point. They should in no way be shunned yet they were most likely briefed on these sensitive types of things. So in the end I would say YES this was wrong doing and should face UCMJ. Yet In the end, I still applaud them on bagging n tagging the bad guys.
We've gone from collecting ears to apologizing to our enemies for embarrassing them in public.
We're decaying from the disease of liberalism.
I've crossed the point where I will try to "avert my eyes" from such acts. Maybe if we acted as if war is exactly what is portrayed, our civilian "masters" wouldn't be so quick to send us on fools errands. Until such time as we actually sort out just what the hell it is we are doing over there, I support the soldiers in the business of killing. It is ugly. It is dirty and it is impolite. If you don't want to see the effects of the policies enacted on our troops....don't drag out bullshit wars. Support these young kids in what they do - they appear to be pretty good at it.
I've crossed the point where I will try to "avert my eyes" from such acts. Maybe if we acted as if war is exactly what is portrayed, our civilian "masters" wouldn't be so quick to send us on fools errands. Until such time as we actually sort out just what the hell it is we are doing over there, I support the soldiers in the business of killing. It is ugly. It is dirty and it is impolite. If you don't want to see the effects of the policies enacted on our troops....don't drag out bullshit wars. Support these young kids in what they do - they appear to be pretty good at it.
Very well put.
Surgicalcric
04-18-2012, 15:49
... These guys are to be congratulated, not shunned. and we wonder why we have such "issues" with our vets...
Exactly.
I've crossed the point where I will try to "avert my eyes" from such acts. Maybe if we acted as if war is exactly what is portrayed, our civilian "masters" wouldn't be so quick to send us on fools errands. Until such time as we actually sort out just what the hell it is we are doing over there, I support the soldiers in the business of killing. It is ugly. It is dirty and it is impolite. If you don't want to see the effects of the policies enacted on our troops....don't drag out bullshit wars. Support these young kids in what they do - they appear to be pretty good at it.
:cool:
Eagle5US
04-18-2012, 17:18
We've gone from collecting ears to apologizing to our enemies for embarrassing them in public.
We're decaying from the disease of liberalism.
A-fucking-MEN:boohoo
We've gone from collecting ears to apologizing to our enemies for embarrassing them in public.
We're decaying from the disease of liberalism.
I'm confused with that statement. Are you implying that collecting ears was condoned and that we should give a 'bye' to people photographing themselves with dead bodies like some sort of 'what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas' way? :confused:
I don't think that's what you meant...but, personally, as a 60+ FOG, I think this kind of behavior is both stupid and wrong - especially after the Abu Ghraib fiasco - but I'm not a 21 YO without a fully developed forebrain involved in such situations anymore, either.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
Eagle5US
04-18-2012, 17:34
I'm confused with that statement. Are you implying that collecting ears was condoned and that we should give a 'bye' to people photographing themselves with dead bodies like some sort of 'what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas' way? :confused:
I don't think that's what you meant...but, personally, as a 60+ FOG, I think this kind of behavior is both stupid and wrong - especially after the Abu Ghraib fiasco - but I'm not a 21 YO without a fully developed forebrain involved in such situations anymore, either.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
While I won't pretend to speak for him, I will say that we have indeed gone from "Kill the ENEMY and celebrate he fact that the sorry bastard is indeed DEAD...to "whatever you do, don't hurt the enemy's feelings because he is a person too. He has problems and his mortgage on his mud hut may be overdue, he is just a squirrel, trying to get his nut....he should be respected and admired and if, by some chance you are able to allow him some tranquility and honor (even though he is a coward who will not FIGHT you and instead plants IED's)...well, you should FEEL BAD THAT YOU TOOK HIS LIFE.
I, for one, an incredibly TIRED of the "politically correct war machine" and its ABSOLUTELY STUPID ROE that does little more than handcuff our service members and ultimately AID the enemy and KILLS our forces.
Stupid as clown shoes...:rolleyes:
What will happen to civil-military relations if the general public concludes that the United States Army is not an institution that prioritizes values? <<LINK (http://www.army.mil/values/)>>
If civilians accept the premise that "war is hell," will they be more inclined to value the lives of American soldiers, more tolerant of behavior they cannot understand, or will they be more likely to demonize soldiers like they did following the American Civil War and the Vietnam War?
You program these guys to kill then get pissed off when they do it. Who gives a shit if they did pose with the bodies. Taking photos is a long way from taking ears. Also it is not like the guys in WWII didnt do this type of thing espically in the Pacific theater so yea the public does not need to know all the details.
I wouldn't look at it as getting pissed at soldiers for killing the enemy. Rather, the undue desecration of their remains and the detriment to the mission caused by these juvenile and foolish if you will, yet unprofessional acts.
Spit in the air and it'll fall right back onto yer face. Abu grahib, burned qurans, SS flags. All solid kicks in the groin. Shouldn't those be lessons well carved into all service members' memory?
I know, common sense isn't all that common, but those kids really should know better.
You program these guys to kill then get pissed off when they do it. Who gives a shit if they did pose with the bodies. Taking photos is a long way from taking ears. Also it is not like the guys in WWII didnt do this type of thing espically in the Pacific theater so yea the public does not need to know all the details.
Read the article. These guys didn't kill anybody - they just did their typical FB 'emo'-style posing 'after-the-fact' with bodies who had taken their own lives.
BS!
Richard :munchin
I never saw anyone in RVN put a cigarette in a dead VC's mouth and then sit across from him like he was having a cup of coffee with him...nope, never saw that.
greenberetTFS
04-18-2012, 18:54
Well that is what that unit and the Army along with the military gets for sending out a bunch out 18 to 20 year olds to do a grown UPS job. Like to see how many pictures ended up on social media sites. I feel every leader needs to be "FRIENDS" to their subordinates.
No one likes mud in their face. I'm surprised this didn't make the national news faster with the whole Colombian thing going on. More bad need for the military forces. From what is reported this happen during 82nd 2010 rotation.
I believe MtnGoat's comments are right on target............:(
Big Teddy :munchin
Oldrotorhead
04-18-2012, 20:22
What will happen to civil-military relations if the general public concludes that the United States Army is not an institution that prioritizes values?
I don't think this is an issue. Anyone with an IQ knows this stuff happens now and has happened at least since WW I. The press hasn't focused on those animals since Danny Pearl and someone that blows their nasty ass into pieces isn't worth much sympathy for what happens after his becomes pieces by his own hand. I'd like to hear the back story on the shit that did this to his Brothers. I also would like to hear some senior Officers come forward and with some support when ever a issue happens usually we only hear" Oh horror, OH the humanity, Oh my career".
Anyone with an IQ knows this stuff happens now and has happened at least since WW I.
This stuff has happened as long as warfare has. If there had been facebook at the beginning, Cain would be posing with Able. Nothing new here, only the visibility it has to people with no frame of reference.
This stuff has happened as long as warfare has.Does such a line of argument square with the tenets of American exceptionalism?
Surgicalcric
04-18-2012, 21:02
Does such a line of argument square with the tenets of American exceptionalism?
Depends on if you ask people who have seen war up close and personal or those who only see it on CNN or in history books.
Depends on if you ask people who have seen war up close and personal or those who only see it on CNN or in history books.
;)
Depends on if you ask people who have seen war up close and personal or those who only see it on CNN or in history books.QP Surgicalcric--
Well, what then about those combat veterans who might find this behavior questionable? As an example, as a collegian, I had as an instructor an Army officer who had done three tours in Vietnam. A soft spoken man, he frequently challenged Cal's ROTC cadets to behave ethically and professionally at all times.
For his teaching points, he would occasionally refer to situations in Vietnam where he had a choice to comport himself as he was trained or not. He commanded the attention and respect of his students--including those of us who were not in the ROTC program--because he had followed his training as a professional soldier.
My point is simply this. Military policy is made by civilians and not soldiers. If some soldiers and warriors say "war is hell" and "shit happens," some civilians will take them at their word and/or assume that the misbehavior of the few does not reflect the character of the many. Other civilians will take a more skeptical view. American military history is filled with examples of the former having a greater influence on policy than the latter--especially after wars and during intervals of retrenchment.
Surgicalcric
04-18-2012, 21:37
Well, what then about those combat veterans who might find this behavior questionable? As an example, as a collegian, I had as an instructor an Army officer who had done three tours in Vietnam....
...Military policy is made by civilians and not soldiers...
There are quite a few "combat veterans" of the last 10 years who know very little about "combat" but have the "t-shirt." And so, I would want to know where and under what conditions that "combat veteran" teacher of yours served before I gave credence to anything that came out of his mouth, with respect to behavior of soldiers engaged in combat.
However, my point remains that until those making the policy understand that "shit" does indeed happen this circle jerk about about moral superiority will continue.
I don't think this is an issue. Anyone with an IQ knows this stuff happens now and has happened at least since WW I.
This type of activity goes way back.. With today's MSM and social media venues, you just get to see and hear more..
Scalping
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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For other uses, see Scalping (disambiguation).
Hannah Duston scalping her native captors
Scalping is the act of removing another person's scalp or a portion of their scalp, either from a dead body or from a living person. The initial purpose of scalping was to provide a trophy of battle or portable proof of a combatant's prowess in war. Eventually, the act became motivated primarily for financial reasons; people received payment per scalp they acquired.
Scalping is often associated with frontier warfare in North America, and was practiced by Native Americans, colonists, and frontiersmen across centuries of violent conflict. Some Mexican (e.g., Sonora and Chihuahua) and American territories (e.g., Arizona) paid bounties for enemy Native American scalps.[1] Contrary to popular belief, scalping was far from universal amongst Native Americans.[2]
Soldiers AND Politicians of all war have used some sort of TROPHY collection. There is a need to vilify the loser, but more importantly a need to reinforce justifications to the winner.
The REMF's often need more mental support than the actual combatants, because they are not actively part of the conflict and question their "lack" of contributions.
To those that are not there or never faced battle, it is an atrocity they an not and don't want to comprehend.
Shit Happens... :mad:
Here is a Roman Empire coin.
Well I just see this as acts of solders that had no leadership around. NCOs that lack proper guidance and what orders the platoon Leader was given on the pictures. Meaning; did he get the "LT take your platoon down to the ANP and get pictures, iris scans and fingerprints of those suicide bombers bodies from last week." Likely nothing more.
But it goes back to what I'm saying. The maturity levels of a 82nd PLT going out to get these pictures. The Company level command failed the Unit, Army & DoD. We all know pictures are taken on mission. But the smart people know what to do with them.
I mean we all know of the tape measure rule right. ;) No one was mad over those one. But yeah they were different. No blood, no smiles, no dead body or bodies. What matters is they never made it to a newspaper reporters email or posted onto a social media Web page our"wall". I see some picture that young SF guys post on their sites. I've told a few to remove some pictures.
Boys will be boys & men will be men.
Post #29.
I disagree.
They were given a mission to try and get iris scans and fingerprints from the dead bodies of suicide bombers.
They failed that mission by then engaging in frat boy antics with the dead bodies.
They further failed that mission by taking pics of their antics and distributing them among their peers.
And now they've even further failed that mission by bringing this sort of attention upon themselves, their peers, their unit, and the US Army - especially in today's media-driven world of "gotcha" - which does make it similar to those other 'fails' mentioned.
As far as units go, IIRC this was also the unit with the bruhaha over a 'poisonous command climate' that resulted in the BC and CSM being releived and sent home about that time.
Making comments and taking pics is one thing, but dead is dead and big boy rules apply.
"I will never forget that I am an American fighting man, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free."
This isn't PCism at work. These guys wanted attention. Well, they're getting it - for failing their mission.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
I disagree.
They were given a mission to try and get iris scans and fingerprints from the dead bodies of suicide bombers.
They failed that mission by then engaging in frat boy antics with the dead bodies.
They further failed that mission by taking pics of their antics and distributing them among their peers.
And now they've even further failed that mission by bringing this sort of attention upon themselves, their peers, their unit, and the US Army - especially in today's media-driven world of "gotcha" - which does make it similar to those other 'fails' mentioned.
As far as units go, IIRC this was also the unit with the bruhaha over a 'poisonous command climate' that resulted in the BC and CSM being releived and sent home about that time.
Making comments and taking pics is one thing, but dead is dead and big boy rules apply.
"I will never forget that I am an American fighting man, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free."
This isn't PCism at work. These guys wanted attention. Well, they're getting it - for failing their mission.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
Tight ass. ;)
This is one of those actions where you had to be there, IMO.
If you deride these guys, you need to go all the way back through the history of combat involving US troops and berate every warrior who pulled some shit like this off, too. Good luck.
I remember that in Basic and AIT they posted pix of mutilated American troops on the bulletin board for motivation. I guess they don't do that nowadays, huh?
Pat
There are quite a few "combat veterans" of the last 10 years who know very little about "combat" but have the "t-shirt." And so, I would want to know where and under what conditions that "combat veteran" teacher of yours served before I gave credence to anything that came out of his mouth, with respect to behavior of soldiers engaged in combat. He was an artillerist who served as a forward observer with reconnaissance teams.
The point he and his fellow officers who were also combat veterans continually made to the cadets was to do their jobs as they were trained in both peace and war. (His remarks about Oliver North were terse.)
However, my point remains that until those making the policy understand that "shit" does indeed happen this circle jerk about about moral superiority will continue.With respect, I think we may be reading the article differently.
According to the piece, the objections to the activity are coming from within the army itself."It is a violation of Army standards to pose with corpses for photographs outside of officially sanctioned purposes," said George Wright, an Army spokesman. "Such actions fall short of what we expect of our uniformed service members in deployed areas."
[...]
The soldier who provided The Times with a series of 18 photos of soldiers posing with corpses did so on condition of anonymity. He served in Afghanistan with the 82nd Airborne's 4th Brigade Combat Team from Ft. Bragg, N.C. He said the photos point to a breakdown in leadership and discipline that he believed compromised the safety of the troops.
He expressed the hope that publication would help ensure that alleged security shortcomings at two U.S. bases in Afghanistan in 2010 were not repeated. The brigade, under new command but with some of the same paratroopers who served in 2010, began another tour in Afghanistan in February.
U.S. military officials asked The Times not to publish any of the pictures.
He was an artillerist who served as a forward observer with reconnaissance teams.
The point he and his fellow officers who were also combat veterans continually made to the cadets was to do their jobs as they were trained in both peace and war. (His remarks about Oliver North were terse.)
With respect, I think we may be reading the article differently.
According to the piece, the objections to the activity are coming from within the army itself.
The problem is that the soldier went to the Times, and not his chain of command, or the IG. If you have reason to believe your leadership will not be professional in its requirement to do an inquiry, then you go to the IG. You do not go to the MSM.
This shows a complete lack of intestinal fortitude on the soldier's part. It is much easier to approach an "understanding" reporter, than it is to look your boss in the eye and tell him you believe he screwed up.
This is part of the problem that we have with our "professional" military right now. We have told everyone from the time they walk in the door to the recruiter that they can bitch, moan, whine and complain if they don't like something, and something will be done to rectify it.
Instead what needs to be pounded into their heads is: 1) You are here VOLUNTARILY. 2) This is not kindergarten and we are not here to dry your tears when you become upset. The military is hard. If you wanted easy, you should have gone into some other line of work. 3) There is a chain of command, use it!!!
All this soldier proved is that he is not a professional.
I am not condoning what was done, but taking it to the news was the wrong thing to do. Maybe he thinks he was a "whistle blower", and was doing the right thing. I think he showed cowardice. The fact he came forward anonymously hightlights that fact.
Just my .02 worth
Lt. Col. Ralph Peters Goes Off On Media And Government’s ‘Rush To Condemn Troops’ Over Photos
After White House condemnation of the L.A. Times for publishing photos of uniformed military posing with the bodies of suicide bombers, Fox News contributor and retired United States Army Lieutenant Colonel Ralph Peters described himself as “furious” at the L.A. Times and the civilian military leadership for their handling of the nascent scandal. Peters told Megyn Kelly this controversy was an example of the “moral cowardice of military leaders who never stick up for our troops but protect their own careers.”
Video at the end of the article. (http://www.mediaite.com/tv/lt-col-ralph-peters-goes-off-on-media-and-governments-rush-to-condemn-troops-with-megyn-kelly/)
+++++++++++++++++
Pat
miclo18d
04-19-2012, 14:36
We all know pictures are taken on mission. But the smart people know what to do with them.
Concur: Why is it that SF guys know the axiom of keeping your personal pictures...personal. What we need to be teaching our young soldiers is that you keep that stuff to yourself. No sharing with other units, your friends, or even some spouses (as some like to shoot off at the mouth).
1st SOF imperative: Know your operational environment (the SF version of the Ranger's answer to everything...METT-T)
Plus the many others that were broken by posting their pics on FB or Twitter:
*Understand the operational environment. [FAIL]
*Recognize political implications. [FAIL]
*Facilitate interagency activities.
*Engage the threat discriminately. [FAIL]
*Consider long-term effects. [FAIL]
*Ensure legitimacy and credibility of special operations. [FAIL]
*Anticipate and control psychological effects. [FAIL]
*Apply capabilities indirectly.
*Develop multiple options.
*Ensure long-term sustainment.
*Provide sufficient intelligence.
*Balance security and synchronization. [FAIL]
Over half were violated (I'm sure I could make the case all were violated), but then a bunch of knuckleheads from the 82nd Windblown Diversion have probably never even heard of these.
I'm not an advocate for taking anatomical souvenirs but I may know the whereabouts of some pics of jokers that were smoked from Panama to Afghanistan and maybe a few pics with guys that got Cuban vacations.
[B]Lt. Col. Ralph Peters Goes Off On Media And Government’s ‘Rush To Condemn Troops’ Over Photos
Pat
Pat,,
Thanks for this video.
LTC Peters (Ret) speaks volumes of the problem that current military leadership has. This isn't because of this war. It is because of the military " up bringing" & PC that had been driven into the military. He points out how civilian military leaders will jump on anything to save themselves from being throw under the bus. I live his, White House is "just kicking the can down the road" commit. This its so true. I feel only Gen McChrystal had any kind of plan for Afghanistan. Everytime we would go back to our old fire bases the game plan had changed. Must of the time from people that never been to Afghanistan. Gen McChrystal made his plan known by all.
Every month for the rest of this year there will be something coming up in MSM to put a black eye on the military. Well at least till November. Driving to speed up to pull out now and not thinking about the people that will stay back to help out with the new Afghan government to spend their bullion USD.
Surgicalcric
04-19-2012, 15:50
...According to the piece, the objections to the activity are coming from within the army itself.
The objections are a knee jerk reaction to the pics finding their way to the media, not because the pics were taken in the first place - or at least that is my assessment of the situation. Again, leadership tossing the young guys into the fire in hopes of saving their own careers.
All that said, the turd who ran to the media should have his ass properly handed to him for being a pawn of the media instead of taking this up the CoC as afchic made note of.
average321
04-19-2012, 16:04
I've crossed the point where I will try to "avert my eyes" from such acts. Maybe if we acted as if war is exactly what is portrayed, our civilian "masters" wouldn't be so quick to send us on fools errands. Until such time as we actually sort out just what the hell it is we are doing over there, I support the soldiers in the business of killing. It is ugly. It is dirty and it is impolite. If you don't want to see the effects of the policies enacted on our troops....don't drag out bullshit wars. Support these young kids in what they do - they appear to be pretty good at it.
great response!
Does such a line of argument square with the tenets of American exceptionalism?
The idea that the American Nation is different (better) than other nations due to characteristics of its people and system of governance has no bearing on my topic of discussion.
I am not stating that the soldiers in question should be commended, but rather that the people condemning them have the luxury of doing so from great distance, remote from reality on the ground.
Combat, REAL combat, is an unbelievably violent activity. Pictures and stock footage on CNN, or movie reenactment, do not do it justice. Soldiers are sent to hostile foreign lands with the express purpose of violently killing people and destroying their stuff. You can dress it in fancy phrases and noble ideas, but the reality on the ground is that its a very brutal and bloody affair.
You watch your friends get ripped up and maimed. You see their vehicles ripped open, engulfed in flames, people screaming and bleeding. Buddies lying in the sand with blood pouring out of them. You have people you know like family die.
You kill other people. It doesn't look like it does on the big screen. A few rifle shots can literally dismember people. You drop bombs or missiles on them and leave a gooey mess that vaguely resembles hamburger, with burned chicken skin mixed in. You get to slip on the bloody mess they leave on the stairwell.
You are afraid. You know that over a long enough time line the odds aren't in your favor. You get to have a very long time line, with five or so deployments. You have literally spend more time over there than back home.
Take THAT frame of reference, and imagine if someone snapping a photo of a guy that tried to kill your friends (and failed) ranks up there with Mai Lai. I don't want to hear about civilian control of the military...they can set policy, but its easy to set lofty goals and high minded ideals about chivalrous behavior and knightly morals on the honorable field of strife than it is to see it and live it first hand, in all it's "glory".
My .02.
The idea that the American Nation is different (better) than other nations due to characteristics of its people and system of governance has no bearing on my topic of discussion.
I am not stating that the soldiers in question should be commended, but rather that the people condemning them have the luxury of doing so from great distance, remote from reality on the ground.
Combat, REAL combat, is an unbelievably violent activity. Pictures and stock footage on CNN, or movie reenactment, do not do it justice. Soldiers are sent to hostile foreign lands with the express purpose of violently killing people and destroying their stuff. You can dress it in fancy phrases and noble ideas, but the reality on the ground is that its a very brutal and bloody affair.
You watch your friends get ripped up and maimed. You see their vehicles ripped open, engulfed in flames, people screaming and bleeding. Buddies lying in the sand with blood pouring out of them. You have people you know like family die.
You kill other people. It doesn't look like it does on the big screen. A few rifle shots can literally dismember people. You drop bombs or missiles on them and leave a gooey mess that vaguely resembles hamburger, with burned chicken skin mixed in. You get to slip on the bloody mess they leave on the stairwell.
You are afraid. You know that over a long enough time line the odds aren't in your favor. You get to have a very long time line, with five or so deployments. You have literally spend more time over there than back home.
Take THAT frame of reference, and imagine if someone snapping a photo of a guy that tried to kill your friends (and failed) ranks up there with Mai Lai. I don't want to hear about civilian control of the military...they can set policy, but its easy to set lofty goals and high minded ideals about chivalrous behavior and knightly morals on the honorable field of strife than it is to see it and live it first hand, in all it's "glory".
My .02.QP Scooter--
How are civilians who do not know war supposed to square the army's own emphasis on values with this specific event?
How do the many many comments on this BB and across the street by BTDTs that American citizens should all be held to the same set of standards square with the arguments being offered in this thread? Should different classes of Americans have different standards of accountability because of their individual and collective experiences?
Moreover, does the scenario you describe in your eloquent post fit the narrative of this specific event?
At present, there is broad support among rank and file Americans for the armed services. However, a dominant theme in American military history is the profound ambivalence that the American people have towards war, the armed services in general, and professional soldiers in particular. My own research on this topic has revealed that this ambivalence is not just because of the inconstancy of civilians but also because of the choices made by officers and soldiers on how they want to be perceived by civilians.
Specifically, when warriors make the decision to insist that their expertise, their values, and their sensibilities are beyond the comprehension of those who have not been there or done that, they end up paying a very high price as the ambivalence of civilians turns to hostility.
MOO, this is not a cycle that we as a nation can afford to re-activate at this point in time. We civilians have much to learn from you who are warriors. Yet, I don't think those lessons will be learned in an environment of mixed messages.
My $0.02.
QP Scooter--
How are civilians who do not know war supposed to square the army's own emphasis on values with this type of conduct?
The Army's emphasis on values is by and large correct. You should not deliberately kill non-combatants. You shouldn't desecrate the dead. You shouldn't mistreat prisoners. You should not steal.
These guys didn't do any of that.
They posed next to pieces of a dead person, who was from a group that actively kills their friends and didn't win this time.... then left them as they found them. This violated current policy, but not the Law of Armed Conflict or International Treaties governing the issue.
Do not misunderstand me, I'm not high fiving any of these guys, some one there likely understood that this was frowned on. But -
Trying to hold combat infantrymen in their teens or early twenties, under the stresses that I described, to the standards of polite society is analogous to complaining that a maintenance worker in a sewer has an offensive odor about him. Until they start urinating on the guy, or taking scalps, I think that everyone back home should understand that they are staring into a world that they have no real understanding of, and withhold the moral indignation on a series of circumstances that lies outside of their experience.
I've listening about this on the radio for a few days now. The media makes it sound like this has never happened before or it is something unique to this day and age.
The first thing that came to mind is that these type pictures have been taken since at least WWII. My Dad had mentioned it happened in Korea. I have seen first hand pictures of the same nature from Desert Storm from 2 separate individual. Hell, people posed with Jesse James and John Dillingers bodies!
It's a bit macabre and it is surely offensive to some.
But as far as I am concerned isn't much different than pictures of me posing with slain game.
Ah... you edited your thread while I was responding... I will attempt to answer some of your questions.
Moreover, does the scenario you describe in your eloquent post fit the narrative of this specific event?
This scenario exactly fits the narrative of this event. This unit had lost several members to suicide bombers in recent days prior to this incident. Suicide bombers, especially on foot, ESPECIALLY not near a static security position of some kind, are incredibly difficult to stop. Walking on a patrol one second, dead friends the next. After several such incidents, seeing one of these guys try to kill again, and fail, is cathartic. These guys aren't sadists. If you lost five of your friends to a swarm of killer bees (in front of you) over a month, then happened upon a swarm of killer bees being electrocuted in a bug zapper, you just might end up yelling something impolite in a celebratory manner. Your neighbors, ignorant of this chain of events, might think you were a little off. PETA might condemn you as an unholy insectaphobe.
Should different classes of Americans have different standards of accountability because of their individual and collective experiences?
They already do, in all walks of life. A hockey player who pummels an opponent is violating the rules of hockey by committing assault on another player. However, no one views this like they would an assault on grandmother at an ATM. Same action, but viewed very differently by the populace because they are viewing the same act in different context.
When we (or I, for that matter...) tell you that you don't understand, I'm not passing judgement on the civilian population, or denying anyone the right to judge our actions. What I AM asking, is that everyone take a step back and understand that the lens that you view these guys actions through is one calibrated to your everyday life, and that by applying the standards of classroom conduct to soldiers in the field you are failing to apply context.
An anecdote, bear with me - In Fallujah, Iraq in Nov 2004 the US decided it needed to clear the city of an entrenched insurgent presence. It gave several weeks notice for all civilians to leave under safe passage. Almost the entire civilian population evacuated, leaving almost no one but combatants in the city. A Stalingrad style clearing operation commenced, taking about three weeks to wrap up. During this episode, there were innumerable incidents of insurgents pretending to surrender, or play dead, only to detonate suicide vests on unsuspecting soldiers and marines. One particular unit had this happen. Almost immediately after, they entered a buiding where there were several dead on the ground. One of them moved, and a marine yelled "He's moving" and shot him on sight. This was caught on camera, and was played all over the news. You may remember this. Everyone knowingly and sagely decreed that this was a war crime of the first order - shooting the wounded. None of the back story was present. Context was absent. The Marine was never Court Martialed, rightly.
All I am saying is that a snapshot of something that looks heinous from your living room has to be viewed with all of the facts and a mind towards the general and specific situation at hand in order to appropriately understand it.
QP Scooter--
MOO, this is not a cycle that we as a nation can afford to re-activate at this point in time. We civilians have much to learn from you who are warriors.
My $0.02.
Some of you seem to be more interested in imposing your own beliefs rather than learning anything.
Sig,
I truly respect your point of view, I really do, and I think you know that. But let me try and offer you another perspective from the one that Scooter has already represented.
My step-son is a Marine. He was "lucky" enough to be deployed to Fallujah as a gunner on a HMMVV, doing convoy security. This was 2010 not 2004 He never talked to his dad or I about what he was doing over there because he knew we would worry more than most because we actually know what he was talking about for the most part, rather than trying to imagine it.
When he came home we had a family reunion at my in-laws, complete with counsins, aunts, uncles, etc, all of whom have never served. When he tried to describe what he had been through over there, it horrified them. While there he was in 5 seperate IED attacks on his vehicles. He also had been fire bombed twice. He earned 2 purple hearts while over there that he didn't tell anyone about. Now while explaining this, he did so in a very non-chalant way as if he was talking about the weather, or bullshitting with his friends.
His family, the people who love him, had no idea how to talk to him after that,with the exception of hubby and I, . They held him at arms length because they were afraid to say the wrong thing. Afraid they would make him angry about something and he would lash out. Because how could you have been over there and not come back angry is what they would ask. They were afraid of what they thought he had become.
About a year later hubby and I went to visit him at Camp Pendleton, and he opened up a bit more. At one point in time, he was under investigation for crimes against humanity. You see his unit went through a couple of weeks where they were being attacked by children with hand grenades. He lost several friends during that time. So he is on patrol one afternoon when they are in an area where a large group of children were playing. One of them starts to approach his team from the far side of the group, with something in his hand. Son orders him to stop (My son speaks Arabic and Farsi) so it wasn't a case of the kid not understanding. The kid doesn't stop. As he gets closer, Son has to make a split second decision on what to do, so he kills a kid who was probably no older than 8. Problem is that the kid really did have a hand grenade, and when son dropped him, the grenade went off and killed some of the other kids that were playing in that large group.
His leadership said he acted out of anger for his buddies being killed, instead of in the manner he was trained and they brought him up on charges. The locals were demanding someone's head because so many kids were killed that day. Eventually cooler heads prevailed and charges were dropped.
When he has relayed that story to friends who are not in the military, or to his mom they treat him different. How could you kill a child is their question? How can you live with yourself after that?
So looking at it from some of the same perspective Scooter did, we are asking our kids to go over to a foreign land and kill the enemy. And sometimes the enemy are children. They have seen and heard horrible things they will NEVER EVER forget. They have seen their friends die in horrific manners, next to them, and they walk away asking why was it him and not me?
And then we act "surprised" when something like these pictures happen? As Scooter said, we are not denegrating civilians when we say you just don't understand. Because you don't. But if you did, you may think differently.
The thing that gets me the most is that when MSM displays graphic photos of OUR dead. OUR kids that are laying there on the ground maimed and dying (that shithead Micheal Yon comes to mind) it is "news worthy" because the American people have a "right to know" what is going on over there. Yet when that happens, the only people you really hear complaining about it are the military, and those that are close to military members. You do not hear outrage of these pictures from the general public. Because if the MSM is showing them, it must be ok.
But for some reason the American people find it appauling when those that are asked to fight do the same thing? Are you kidding me?
In my opinion the reason we have come to this juncture is this: Less than 1% of the population chooses to serve. Extrapolate that out to their family members and friends and you probably have about 3-5% of the population who even KNOWS someone in the military. You ask how can civilians come to understand? My answer is, get out and get to know someone in the military. There are plenty of means to do so. Volunteer at a local USO. Sig, you are in So Cal, there are plenty of opportunities for you to get to know some of these fine Americans, you just have to seek them out.
This is not a bash on you Sig, but for the most part, the reason a lot of civilians don't know someone in the military, is because they choose not to. Maybe if more AMericans took the time to get to know us, instead of "supporting the cause" with bumper stickers and magnetic ribbons on their cars something like this wouldn't be so cringe worthy to them.
You are always talking about civ-mil relations. Well in my opinion the civilians have just as much responsibility in that relationship as the military does, yet they for the most part have chosen to abdicate that responsibility, yet stand by and judge when something disturbs their sensitive sensibilities.
... talking about civ-mil relations. Well in my opinion the civilians have just as much responsibility in that relationship as the military does, yet they for the most part have chosen to abdicate that responsibility, yet stand by and judge when something disturbs their sensitive sensibilities.
;)
AFCHIC - well stated!!! Your step-son did the right thing. THAT is why we need to embrace our kids and support them in these situations; rather than run them through the wringer of public opinion or sneer down our noses at those we send out to do the killing, (exactly what his cowardly "leaders" did to him). At some point I need to buy you a beer over at the Club (if that's still allowed at Scott).
Scooter - spot-on man!! Keep it up.
I support the troops; sometimes they do stupid things....but they are OURS. If you (the royal "you") sent them out to do some killing, don't piss and moan when they get a little lax when it comes to not getting too torn up when enemy shitheads blow themselves up.
AFCHIC - well stated!!! Your step-son did the right thing. THAT is why we need to embrace our kids and support them in these situations; rather than run them through the wringer of public opinion or sneer down our noses at those we send out to do the killing, (exactly what his cowardly "leaders" did to him). At some point I need to buy you a beer over at the Club (if that's still allowed at Scott).
Scooter - spot-on man!! Keep it up.
I support the troops; sometimes they do stupid things....but they are OURS. If you (the royal "you") sent them out to do some killing, don't piss and moan when they get a little lax when it comes to not getting too torn up when enemy shitheads blow themselves up.
I'll let you know next time come home for the weekend. I look forward to that drink :D
We've gone from collecting ears to apologizing to our enemies for embarrassing them in public.
We're decaying from the disease of liberalism.
I thought the exact same thing when I read the title of this thread... Sad really...
His leadership said he acted out of anger for his buddies being killed, instead of in the manner he was trained and they brought him up on charges.
Complete and utter, BULLSHIT.
Enemy is enemy, regardless of age, sex, marital status, or religion. He knew kids were throwing grenades. He was right. End of call.
As far as the decision to shoot. Well, would anyone have rathered he come home in a box?
As far as how to treat him... tell the "friends" to treat him as they did before he left. He's the same person, and he remembers them in the same way. Acting weird around him will piss him off. (It did me, anyway...)
alright4u
04-21-2012, 12:54
82nd in the news - here we go again... :(
Richard :munchin
U.S. Troops Posed With Body Parts Of Afghan Bombers
LATimes, 18 Apr 2012
The paratroopers had their assignment: Check out reports that Afghan police had recovered the mangled remains of an insurgent suicide bomber. Try to get iris scans and fingerprints for identification.
The 82nd Airborne Division soldiers arrived at the police station in Afghanistan's Zabol province in February 2010. They inspected the body parts. Then the mission turned macabre: The paratroopers posed for photos next to Afghan police, grinning while some held — and others squatted beside — the corpse's severed legs.
A few months later, the same platoon was dispatched to investigate the remains of three insurgents who Afghan police said had accidentally blown themselves up. After obtaining a few fingerprints, they posed next to the remains, again grinning and mugging for photographs.
Two soldiers posed holding a dead man's hand with the middle finger raised. A soldier leaned over the bearded corpse while clutching the man's hand. Someone placed an unofficial platoon patch reading "Zombie Hunter" next to other remains and took a picture.
The Army launched a criminal investigation after the Los Angeles Times showed officials copies of the photos, which recently were given to the paper by a soldier from the division.
"It is a violation of Army standards to pose with corpses for photographs outside of officially sanctioned purposes," said George Wright, an Army spokesman. "Such actions fall short of what we expect of our uniformed service members in deployed areas."
Wright said that after the investigation, the Army would "take appropriate action" against those involved. Most of the soldiers in the photos have been identified, said Lt. Col. Margaret Kageleiry, an Army spokeswoman.
(Cont'd) http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-afghan-photos-20120418,0,5032601.story
Are these troops carrying cell phones on OPS? I would not allow it for security reasons, but; this is not my war,not my command time, and; I am zip.
alright4u
04-21-2012, 13:01
Honestly - they posed with dead enemy. So what? These guys are to be congratulated, not shunned. and we wonder why we have such "issues" with our vets.
How about when the decision is made to send these guys to freakin' kill the enemy, we actually applaud them for it instead of trying to apply some gentlemen's sense of cocktail-propriety to the savage business of killing.
Barry wrote his roommates were from Pakistan. Well he damn sure knew more about Islam then he knew about the USA when he he arrived at Occidental. Keep those records sealed. He does not have the balls to open them.