The Department Of Homeland Security Is Buying 450 Million New Bullets

[swpa19]

Hmmmm????

http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-03-28/news/31247765_1_atk-rounds-bullet

[tonyz]

Fits in well with this earlier conversation.

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37195&highlight=Dhs

[Kyobanim]

Well, at least they're not buying old bullets . . .

[Dusty]

That department can't accomplish its mission without a projected allotment of munitions any more than the Armed Forces can.

Now, if they start ordering jackboots and armbands, wake me up.

[Destrier]

Or rifle ammo

[Iraqgunz]

Considering the size of DHS and the fact that the U.S Coast Guard is also a part of DHS, these numbers aren't shocking. When I was in the USCG we purchased 5 years of ammunition in advance.

The .40 round has been the standard issue round for all CONUS USCG units for close to 6 years now.

[Streck-Fu]

Or rifle ammo

They want that too.

We've also learned that the Department has an open bid for a stockpile of rifle ammo. Listed on the federal business opportunities network, they're looking for up to 175 million rounds of .223 caliber ammo to be exact. The .223 is almost exactly the same round used by NATO forces, the 5.56 x 45mm.

[bluebb]

We qualify 4 times a year on our weapons, pistol, shotgun and rifle if available.
DHS is CBP, BP, USCG, and other law enforcement types.
I am sure you don't mind our folks on the southwest border having rifles...you know just to keep the odds close to even in a gunfight with the cartels.
All you black chinook, martial law, end timers need to get a grip. :p

Blue

[Destrier]

I have a grip as well as sight alignment, sight picture. If there is a problem on our border (there is), then the U.S. military should be mounted up and pushed ten miles into Mexico (it isn't) and dealing with it: decisively. There used to be visible separation between law enforcement and the military. Not a fan of that distinction slipping away.

[Dusty]

They want that too.

I hadn't read that. Thanks for the post.

Hmmmm...

[Streck-Fu]

I hadn't read that. Thanks for the post.

Hmmmm...

It was in the article hidden under the adverts.

[tom kelly]

They want that too.
The difference between the Remmington .223 cartridge and the 5.56 mm Nato cartridge. According to SAAMI (Sporting Arms and AMMUNITION Manufactures Institute) Specifications the 5.56 mm and the .223 are SIMILAR, but, the chambers of the guns and the test barrels they are evaluated in are DIFFERENT. One of the key differencesis the length of the throat or the leade. On the 5.56mm chamber compared to the .223 Remington, The 5.56mm is almost twice as long vs. the .223 Remington chamber. Typically the 5.56mm round is loaded to a higher velocity and pressure level than the .223 Remmington. Firing the 5.56mm round in a .223 Remington chamber with the shorter leade can dramatically increase chamber pressures. Remington recommends against the 5.56mm cartridge being fired in a .223 chamber. UNLESS the GUN is MARKED WITH BOTH CARTRIDGE DESIGNATIONS. For example the Remington Model 7615 Patrol Rifle can Safely use both cartridges. The leade is the very small portion of a barrels rifling which slopes from the unrifiled throat to the full-depth rifiling. Although frequently refered to as the throat, there is a definite differencebetween the two. The throat is the unrifiled portion of the bore immediately ahead of the chamber, and before the leade. Bottom Line you can fire a .223 cartridge in a barrel marked 5.56mm BUT YOU CAN NOT FIRE A 5.56mm cartridge in a barrel marked .223....TK

[CW3SF]

Federal LEOs deserve to be provided with the best ammunition available. DHS is simply switching contracts from their present supplier to a new one because the ammunition is better suited for their mission. I dont see what the big problem is. :confused:

[Streck-Fu]

The difference between the Remmington .223 cartridge and the 5.56 mm Nato cartridge. ....TK

I quoted the article...the author wrote that. I know the difference... :)

[DJ Urbanovsky]

When the Gov buys in bulk like this, they get a lower price. They also lock in that price, which protects them against future price increases for the duration of the contract. They're trying to save money. They are not buying a bullet for every citizen.

[Team Sergeant]

That department can't accomplish its mission without a projected allotment of munitions any more than the Armed Forces can.

Now, if they start ordering jackboots and armbands, wake me up.

Ditto....

.40 loses all day to 5.56 and most other rounds.

[Paslode]

NOAA is buying ammo and targets....I suspect NOAA likely has Security staff at it's facilities.

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=bfd95987a1ad9a6dfb22bca4a19150cb&tab=core&tabmode=list&=

[tonyz]

NOAA is buying ammo and targets....I suspect NOAA likely has Security staff at it's facilities.

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=bfd95987a1ad9a6dfb22bca4a19150cb&tab=core&tabmode=list&=

Merely a small purchase for NOAA...looks like it won't be rainin' lead.

[Ret10Echo]

NOAA is buying ammo and targets....I suspect NOAA likely has Security staff at it's facilities.

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=bfd95987a1ad9a6dfb22bca4a19150cb&tab=core&tabmode=list&=

NOAA has an Office of Law Enforcement (fisheries)...

Agents attend FLETC as well

Link here (http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/ole/ole_about.html)

[Pete]

NOAA has an Office of Law Enforcement (fisheries)...

Agents attend FLETC as well

Link here (http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/ole/ole_about.html)

Looks like another department that could be cut from the budget. Just give about 1/2 their money to the Coast Guard.

Government agencies are like Ticks - once they're dug in they're Hell to get out.

[Team Sergeant]

NOAA has an Office of Law Enforcement (fisheries)...

Agents attend FLETC as well

Link here (http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/ole/ole_about.html)

It was bad enough to give guns to lawyers and accountants (The FBI) and now we're arming weathermen? I need my own island.


FLETC = federal law enforcement training center, that's where they hire "athletes" and "game shooters" to train the Feds how to employ their guns....... I don't think a year has gone by in the last decade where a federal agent hasn't shot and killed another federal agent. It's a good thing no one has ever sued the trainers........:munchin

[vorticity]

Looks like the bid had a typo - the ammo was indeed meant for the NOAA Fisheries FLETC, not the NWS:

Washington Post link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-weather-gang/post/national-weather-service-ammunition-solicitation-triggers-confusion/2012/08/14/3dc6b67e-e62a-11e1-936a-b801f1abab19_blog.html)

'Partly sunny with a 30% chance of armed confrontation' is not a forecast scenario envisioned by most meteorologists I know. :rolleyes:

[tonyz]

NOAA's just gettin' in their ammo order before the election year October price bump/shortage.

[Sigaba]

Looks like another department that could be cut from the budget. Just give about 1/2 their money to the Coast Guard.

Government agencies are like Ticks - once they're dug in they're Hell to get out.Some ticks are worse than others.

[Paslode]

Merely a small purchase for NOAA...looks like it won't be rainin' lead.


LOL! But the Weather Channel girls will be packing.

It is however quite interesting how many of our bureaucratic fiefdoms have their own army and weapons cache.

[tonyz]

LOL! But the Weather Channel girls will be packing.

Hmmm, Alexandra Steele or Domenica Davis...me like weather...and now they're packin'. Too good.

[Sigaba]

It is however quite interesting how many of our bureaucratic fiefdoms have their own army and weapons cache.Does this fact pattern advance or counter the argument that America is trending towards fascism?

[Ret10Echo]

Does this fact pattern advance or counter the argument that America is trending towards fascism?

I believe you would have to assume a central authority that orchestrates action. I would posit that the empire building of bureaucrats within their own "cylinder of excellence" does not create an overarching "capability" of authoritarianism. :D

Wasteful, redundant, criminal...perhaps. I have little faith in there being a master plan or puppet master. Too many rice bowls.

[Richard]

It is however quite interesting how many of our bureaucratic fiefdoms have their own army and weapons cache.

Why? A govt agency (facilities, personnel) is a govt agency representing the hated '.GOV' and, therefore, a potential target to an anti-govt nut job... and a potential target is a softer target without a security force.

Been around any govt facilities after the Murrah Building and the 9/11 attacks?

Richard :munchin

[Paslode]

Does this fact pattern advance or counter the argument that America is trending towards fascism?

Based on your Sen. Brown/NOAA pdf, NOAA might be working for corporate interests, picking of winners and losers and have the means to Dictate without oversight. I guess it could lead SOME to believe it is possible.

I just find it odd that NOAA and the Dept of Education are armed and dangerous.....I would have expected the blanket of DoJ and/or DHS to cover their assets.


Why? A govt agency (facilities, personnel) is a govt agency representing the hated '.GOV' and, therefore, a potential target to an anti-govt nut job...and a potential target is a softer target without a security force.

Been around any govt facilities after the Murrah Building and the 9/11 attacks?

Richard :munchin


Sometimes you need more security and fire power because you have screwed one too many people and they are coming to get you. Other times someone is just crazy and dangerous.

Just curious Sir, do you believe the TSA Security Force hardens a target?


And to answer your question:

Yes. You can no longer drive drive on base without stopping at the entrance check point. You can no longer leave your bags unattended at the airport. You can no longer joke about hijacking having a plane while in flight.

Just to name a few.

[Sigaba]

Based on your Sen. Brown/NOAA pdf, NOAA might be working for corporate interests, picking of winners and losers and have the means to Dictate without oversight. I guess it could lead SOME to believe it is possible. Speculation based upon supposition and offered without proof is not, IMO, the most efficient way to build a credible argument. YMMV. I just find it odd that NOAA and the Dept of Education are armed and dangerous.....I would have expected the blanket of DoJ and/or DHS to cover their assets.What is the basis of your expectations?

[Paslode]

Speculation based upon supposition and offered without proof is not, IMO, the most efficient way to build a credible argument. YMMV. What is the basis of your expectations?

I wasn't building a argument.......maybe you were?

The basis of my expectations, NOAA is widely viewed as a organization that deals with the weather, the oceans, the atmosphere and meteorology....not a weaponized organization. The Dept of Education is widely viewed as the governmental body in charge of education, not a governmental body that buys short barreled shotguns and has it's own Entry Teams.

Those are obviously naive expectations for me and millions of others. LMAO!

[Badger52]

Looks like another department that could be cut from the budget. Just give about 1/2 their money to the Coast Guard.

Government agencies are like Ticks - once they're dug in they're Hell to get out.No kidding! WTF, over? They have a fed taxpayer funded department that is like an armed Greenpeace? What happened to the Dept of the Interior and individual state conservation wardens who're bound to protect endangered species in their borders anyway?

...and give the other half of their money BACK.

Criminy.

[Ret10Echo]

...and give the other half of their money BACK.

Criminy.

Ahhh.... Well, there is no "BACK" since so much "spending forward" has occured it's all a wash. The shell game will continue. Reflag-reorganize...conservation of mass is still in effect.

[Badger52]

Reflag-reorganize...conservation of mass is still in effect.Damn those laws of physics. You're right, shoulda been pink font.

[Destrier]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/08/17/agencies-tamp-down-speculation-over-hollow-point-ammo-purchases/

[miclo18d]

And also from the NRA:

Federal Law Enforcement Agencies Buy Ammunition

Posted on August 17, 2012

You may recently have seen some in the Internet rumor mill feverishly repeating the obvious truth above, in an effort to stir up fear about recent acquisitions of ammunition by the Department of Homeland Security and a number of smaller agencies. The mildest writers have questioned why seemingly mundane agencies would need ammunition at all; more incendiary authors suggest that these government agencies are preparing for a war with the American people.

Much of the concern stems from a lack of understanding of the law enforcement functions carried about by officers in small federal agencies. These agents have the power to make arrests and execute warrants, just like their better-known counterparts at agencies like the FBI.

For instance, the Social Security Administration solicited offers for 174,000 rounds of pistol ammunition. But the agency has 295 special agents who combat Social Security fraud that costs tax payers billions each year, so the order works out to roughly 590 rounds of ammunition per agent for training, mandatory quarterly qualification shooting and duty use. More than a few NRA members would use that much ammunition in a weekend shooting class or plinking session.

Another recent rumor questioned a request for 46,000 rounds of.40-caliber ammo by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. NOAA inadvertently fueled that speculation through a clerical error that suggested the ammunition was destined for the National Weather Service. NOAA later clarified that the ammunition was actually for the little known Fisheries Office of Law Enforcement, which enforces laws against illegal fishing and marine life importation. The ammunition is for 63 personnel, amounting to about 730 rounds per officer.

The most widespread of the recent rumors involves a Department of Homeland Security contract for a maximum of 450 million rounds of .40-caliber jacketed hollow-points, to be supplied over the next five years.

After receiving numerous questions from his constituents regarding the contract, pro-Second Amendment U.S. Rep. Lynn Westmoreland (R-Ga.) and his staff set out in search of the truth. In a press release, Rep. Westmoreland's office explains:

If you take the number of agencies that will be using this ammunition – CBP, Citizenship and Immigration Services, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), ICE, the U.S. Secret Service, Transportation Security Administration, the DHS police force, and all the guards that protect the various buildings these agencies are housed in, and spread that out over 5 years, you start to see that 450 million rounds really isn't that large of an order. Especially considering it is used for training purposes like firing range and live fire exercises, on-the-job use (though that is very limited), and to shore up their supplies. In fact, there are 65,000 – 70,000 law enforcement personnel at DHS who would be covered under this … ammunition contract. If DHS were to purchase all 450 million rounds over 5 years, then that would equate to only about 1,384 rounds of ammo per year per law enforcement [officer] … assuming the lower estimate of only 65,000 law enforcement personnel at DHS. Considering those agents go through training exercises several times per year, that is not a lot of ammunition.

Perhaps most strangely, some have cited the purchase of hollow-point ammunition as evidence of the federal government's evil motives. Hollow-points are the defensive ammunition of choice for federal, state and local law enforcement officers across the country, just as they are for private citizens. These attacks are eerily similar to statements made by gun prohibitionists, who spent the much of the '70s, '80s and '90s complaining about "dum dum" bullets. (In fact, the Violence Policy Center's website still exhibits a publication lamenting that federal ammunition law "has no effect on today's generation of high-tech hollow-point ammunition.") The attacks also ignore the fact that federal agents, unlike average taxpayers on more limited budgets, normally train and qualify with their duty ammunition.

As most gun owners will agree, skepticism of government is healthy. But today, there are more than enough actual threats to the Second Amendment to keep gun owners busy. With two key Supreme Court decisions hanging by a one-vote margin, the Justice Department deeply involved in a cover-up of a disastrous Mexican gun smuggling operation, and President Obama touting a ban on popular semi-automatic firearms, there is no need to invent additional threats to our rights.

[Richard]

The basis of my expectations, NOAA is widely viewed as a organization that deals with the weather, the oceans, the atmosphere and meteorology....not a weaponized organization. The Dept of Education is widely viewed as the governmental body in charge of education, not a governmental body that buys short barreled shotguns and has it's own Entry Teams.

Those are obviously naive expectations for me and millions of others. LMAO!

Here's a link from the DOJ with the guidelines for Statutory Law Enforcement Authority for OIGs - notice when this occurred.

http://www.ignet.gov/pande/standards/agleguidelines.pdf

Here's what DofED had to say about it.

“The Office of Inspector General is the law enforcement arm of the U.S. Department of Education and is responsible for the detection of waste, fraud, abuse, and other criminal activity involving Federal education funds, programs, and operations. As such, OIG operates with full statutory law enforcement authority, which includes conducting search warrants, making arrests, and carrying firearms. The acquisition of these firearms is necessary to replace older and mechanically malfunctioning firearms, and in compliance with Federal procurement requirements. For more information on OIG’s law enforcement authority, please visit their Web site at : www.ed.gov/oig”

Here's the original solicitation request for the 'replacement' shotguns - notice the dates.

Solicitation Number:
EDOOIG-10-000004
Notice Type:
Combined Synopsis/Solicitation
Synopsis:
Added: Mar 08, 2010 10:39 am
The U.S. Department of Education (ED) intends to purchase twenty-seven (27) REMINGTON BRAND MODEL 870 POLICE 12/14P MOD GRWC XS4 KXCS SF. RAMAC #24587 GAUGE: 12 BARREL: 14" - PARKERIZED CHOKE: MODIFIED SIGHTS: GHOST RING REAR WILSON COMBAT; FRONT - XS CONTOUR BEAD SIGHT STOCK: KNOXX REDUCE RECOIL ADJUSTABLE STOCK FORE-END: SPEEDFEED SPORT-SOLID - 14" LOP are designated as the only shotguns authorized for ED based on compatibility with ED existing shotgun inventory, certified armor and combat training and protocol, maintenance, and parts.The required date of delivery is March 22, 2010. Interested sources must submit detailed technical capabilities and any other information that demonstrates their ability to meet the requirements above, no later than March 12, 2010 at 12 PM, E.S.T. Any quotes must be submitted electronically to the attention of Holly.Le@ed.gov, Contract Specialist (Contract Operations Group), with a concurrent copy to Sherese.Lewis@ed.gov, Contracting Officer (Contract Operations Group).The following clauses are applicable to this requirement:
52-212-1 Instruction to Offerors - Commercial Items52.212-2 Evaluation - Commercial Items 52.212-3 Offeror Representations and Certifications - Commercial Items52.212-4 Contract Terms and Conditions - Commercial Items52.212-5 Contract Terms and Conditions Required Implementing Statutes or Executive Orders - Commercial Items
In accordance with 52.212-2, the fill-in applicable to this requirement is below:52.212-2 Evaluation-Commercial Items. As prescribed in 12.301(c), the Contracting Officer may insert a provision substantially as follows: Evaluation-Commercial Items (Jan 1999) (a) The Government will award a contract resulting from this solicitation to the responsible offeror whose offer conforming to the solicitation will be most advantageous to the Government, price and other factors considered. The following factors shall be used to evaluate offers: (i) Technical Capability(ii) PriceIn accordance with 52.212-5, the following clauses are applicable to this requirement:52.225-1 Buy American Act - Supplies (February 2009)52.232-33, Payment by Electronic Funds Transfer-Central
New equipment only; no remanufactured products. No partial shipments Offer must be good for 30 calendar days after submission.Offerors must have current Central Contractor Registration (CCR) at the time offer is submitted. Information can be found at www.ccr.gov.This is a combined synopsis/solicitation for commercial items in accordance with Federal Acquisition Regulation Part 12, Acquisition of Commercial Items. The Government will award a commercial item purchase order to the offeror with the most advantageous offer to the government. All offerors must submit their best price and delivery capabilities.

Place of Delivery: U.S. Department of Education Office of Inspector General
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=cb68cf9f3fa2fe18a83d1c3dee0039b2&tab=core&_cview=0

Here's what I think about it - meh.

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin

[Team Sergeant]

U.S. Department of Education needing guns is amusing......

Here's an idea, instead of wasting millions on "untrained" armed "special agents" and special agents shooting each other and leaving weapons in public bathrooms how about when you locate a "real-bad" guy call the local police to arrest him.:munchin

I cannot wait to read about the first U.S. Department of Education, TSA, FEMA, NOAA etc "shootout"......

What next? U.S. Department of Education "counter terrorist" teams???

Hell let's arm all the TSA "agents" at the airports!

[tom kelly]

We the people of the U S A DON'T need a Dept of Education, Bureaucrats wasting Taxpayers $$$$$. TK.

[Paslode]

Here's what I think about it - meh.

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin


http://professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33957&highlight=Inspector+General+OIG

http://professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27464&highlight=department+education+shotgun&page=6

[Paslode]

I don't know anything about Major General Jerry Curry, but he brings up some interesting stats.

If this were only a one time order of ammunition, it could easily be dismissed. But there is a pattern here. The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) has ordered 46,000 rounds of hollow point ammunition. Notice that all of these purchases are for the lethal hollow nose bullets. These bullets are not being purchased and stored for squirrel or coyote hunting. This is serious ammunition manufactured to be used for serious purposes.

In the war in Iraq, our military forces expended approximately 70 million rounds per year. In March DHS ordered 750 million rounds of hollow point ammunition. It then turned around and ordered an additional 750 million rounds of miscellaneous bullets including some that are capable of penetrating walls. This is enough ammunition to empty five rounds into the body of every living American citizen. Is this something we and the Congress should be concerned about? What’s the plan that requires so many dead Americans, even during times of civil unrest? Has Congress and the Administration vetted the plan in public.


http://dailycaller.com/2012/08/17/who-does-the-government-intend-to-shoot

[MR2]

I had a computer client who lived in Baily, CO. I don't know what it is about the water up that valley, but they seem to have more than their share of posers and kooks. On the other hand, my wisest Team Sargent lived there too. Anyways, this client walks with a cane and a pronounced limp. He tells everyone that the limp is from when the G'mnt implanted a tracking device in his hip. He figured they did it during a visit to the VA for a sore back. (Anyone else see the chicken vs. egg conflict?). And that he sees those black helicopters everywhere he goes. And they are tracking him.

Another interesting thing about Baily is that it sits on a direct flight path from Denver to Eagle, CO. Eagle is where a majority of the free worlds helicopters are/were tested at altitude. These wierd looking helios are offloaded at one of several Metro airports and fly up and down and around the valley to/from Eagle all the time. The State is also home to several military aviation assets that train there too. As most of us know, black helicopters are not black, but rather a very dark, dark green. But I digress...

Finally getting tired of his loony crap, I popped off and told him that I hope the government was tracking his loony ass especially since they closed all the state run mental institutions.

He always paid late anyways...

[Sigaba]

I don't know anything about Major General Jerry Curry[.]Maybe it is your web browser. If you were to change to Firefox, you could highlight a subject, right click, and then direct Google to do a search.

http://www.jerrycurry.com/

http://curryforamerica.com/

http://generallyspeaking.curryforamerica.com/

Or you could just go ahead and hitch your credibility to a person about whom you "don't know anything about."

[BOfH]

Maybe it is your web browser. If you were to change to Firefox, you could highlight a subject, right click, and then direct Google to do a search.


What are you biased against Chrome? Racist!

[BOfH]

On the topic, I came across this article (http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/the-government-is-ordering-millions-of-bullets-should-i-be-worried).


...Unlike most citizens and the majority of local law enforcement agencies, most Federal agencies do not use cheap (full metal jacket) training ammunition. They shoot very expensive (around $1 per round) hollowpoint bullets during all their training sessions. I personally believe that this practice is wasteful, as functionally identical training rounds can be purchased for roughly 1/3 of the price of a premium hollowpoint round. Most agencies shoot the cheaper bullets in training and carry the more expensive bullets for duty use. Not so with the Feds. They practice with the same hollowpoints they carry on duty....


While I have zero trust in the DHS, I'm not sold on conspiracy here. Then again, who knows what will happen come November.

My .02

[Paslode]

Maybe it is your web browser. If you were to change to Firefox, you could highlight a subject, right click, and then direct Google to do a search.

http://www.jerrycurry.com/

http://curryforamerica.com/

http://generallyspeaking.curryforamerica.com/

Or you could just go ahead and hitch your credibility to a person about whom you "don't know anything about."

Maybe I use Firefox ;).....and I browsed those links and I still don't know who he is. It's the internet Sigaba and I don't really know you are who you say you are either...you could be in Federal Detention in Leavenworth, KS for all I know. Regardless just like this general you make some interesting points.

Like every other post on topics, the Generals comments and opinions are just another log on the fire which adds another dynamic to the discussion.

[Dusty]

http://www.infowars.com/dhs-purchases-21-6-million-more-rounds-of-ammunition/

February 7, 2013

The Department of Homeland Security is set to purchase a further 21.6 million rounds of ammunition to add to the 1.6 billion bullets it has already obtained over the course of the last 10 months alone, figures which have stoked concerns that the federal agency is preparing for civil unrest.

A solicitation posted yesterday on the Fed Bid website details how the bullets are required for the DHS Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Artesia, New Mexico.

The solicitation asks for 10 million pistol cartridge .40 caliber 165 Grain, jacketed Hollow point bullets (100 quantities of 100,000 rounds) and 10 million 9mm 115 grain jacketed hollow point bullets (100 quantities of 100,000 rounds).

The document also lists a requirement for 1.6 million pistol cartridge 9mm ball bullets (40 quantities of 40,000 rounds).

An approximation of how many rounds of ammunition the DHS has now secured over the last 10 months stands at around 1.625 billion. In March 2012, ATK announced that they had agree to provide the DHS with a maximum of 450 million bullets over four years, a story that prompted questions about why the feds were buying ammunition in such large quantities.

To put that in perspective, during the height of active battle operations in Iraq, US soldiers used 5.5 million rounds of ammunition a month. Extrapolating the figures, the DHS has purchased enough bullets over the last 10 months to wage a full scale war for almost 30 years.

Such massive quantities of ammo purchases have stoked fears that the agency is preparing for some kind of domestic unrest. In 2011, Department of Homeland Security chief Janet Napolitano directed Immigration and Customs Enforcement to prepare for a mass influx of immigrants into the United States, calling for the plan to deal with the “shelter” and “processing” of large numbers of people.

The federal agency’s primary concern is now centered around thwarting “homegrown terrorism,” but information produced and used by the DHS to train its personnel routinely equates conservative political ideology with domestic extremism.

A study funded by the Department of Homeland Security that was leaked last year characterizes Americans who are “suspicious of centralized federal authority,” and “reverent of individual liberty” as “extreme right-wing” terrorists.
In August 2012, the DHS censored information relating to the amount of bullets purchased by the federal agency on behalf of Immigration & Customs Enforcement, citing an “unusual and compelling urgency” to acquire the bullets, noting that there is a shortage of bullets which is threatening a situation that could cause “substantial safety issues for the government” should law enforcement officials not be adequately armed.

As we highlighted last month, the DHS’ previous ammunition solicitation was awarded to Evian Group, an organization that was formed just five days before the announcement of the solicitation and appeared to be little more than a front organization since it didn’t have a genuine physical address, a website, or even a phone number.

While Americans are being browbeaten with rhetoric about the necessity to give up semi-automatic firearms in the name of preventing school shootings, the federal government is arming itself to the teeth with both ammunition and guns. Last September, the DHS purchased no less than 7,000 fully automatic assault rifles, labeling them “Personal Defense Weapons.”

Snip

[Team Sergeant]

http://www.infowars.com/dhs-purchases-21-6-million-more-rounds-of-ammunition/

Whole post.....

Snip

Federal agencies don't wage war, soldiers do. Can't say I've ever met a "battle hardened" federal agent.....:rolleyes:

It would never last 30 years, more like a year or two.....

Remember the "Battle of Athens (http://www.americanheritage.com/content/battle-athens)".....

TS

[ddoering]

Sounds to me like a federal plot to keep ammo out of the civilian market.....

[swatsurgeon]

Sounds to me like a federal plot to keep ammo out of the civilian market.....

I agree....they are manipulating the market for supply and demand IMHO

[afchic]

I agree....they are manipulating the market for supply and demand IMHO

Given the shortages here in OH, i would tend to agree. They know they won't be able to pass the law banning weapons or ammo, so they are trying to make it scarce. I have been going to the BX every day for the last week to purchase my 2 box a day limit.

[MR2]

Ammo: Expenditures for ammunition will be limited to an absolute minimum. It should be noted that certain manufacturers and specialty chains, such as Costco, Hickory Farms, General Nutrition centers, and occasionally Safeway often provide free samples of promotional ammo. Entire allotments can be obtained in this manner. We realize many of you survive your deployments this way. :munchin

[afchic]

Ammo: Expenditures for ammunition will be limited to an absolute minimum. It should be noted that certain manufacturers and specialty chains, such as Costco, Hickory Farms, General Nutrition centers, and occasionally Safeway often provide free samples of promotional ammo. Entire allotments can be obtained in this manner. We realize many of you survive your deployments this way. :munchin

Classic!! I have gotten a copy of the memo from so many different sources today. The Blogosphere at it's best:D

[Utah Bob]

Ban assault weapons?
How about banning DHS?

[mark46th]

Your Costco sells ammo!?!?!?

[Ret10Echo]

How about banning DHS?

Because it (DHS) provides too many opportunities for earmarks and pork...

((please note that the above comment was NOT in pink))

[Mr Furious]

IMHO - conspiracy folks are making much 'ado about a whole lot of nothing. The solicitation and procurement for the rounds are for FLETC and all of the affiliated training facilities. Not some DHS stockpile to kill civilians in case of an uprising. How many federal agencies pour through all of the FLETC facilities? Then include state and local LEA's that have the budget programmed to send their officers there. What is that, eleventy billion folks? I sure know it is a heck of a lot of folks and they go through a heck of a lot of bullets.

[Utah Bob]

Because it (DHS) provides too many opportunities for earmarks and pork...

((please note that the above comment was NOT in pink))

Nor was mine. ;)

[Mr Furious]

One division of FLETC burns through 15M rounds annually: http://www.fletc.gov/training/programs/firearms-division/interesting-facts-about-the-firearms-division.html

[SF18C]

OK Tin Hatters...I got a link to top all the ammo/gun nonsense!

Yeah it is a few months old but come on don't let that stop a good conspiracy, you all know its because of the liberal media hiding the fact man...just open your eyes!!


http://www.pakalertpress.com/2012/10/22/fema-ordered-102000-boxcars-with-shackles/

[MR2]

Oooo! Triple stacks!

[SomethingWitty]

The difference between the Remmington .223 cartridge and the 5.56 mm Nato cartridge. According to SAAMI (Sporting Arms and AMMUNITION Manufactures Institute) Specifications the 5.56 mm and the .223 are SIMILAR, but, the chambers of the guns and the test barrels they are evaluated in are DIFFERENT. One of the key differencesis the length of the throat or the leade. On the 5.56mm chamber compared to the .223 Remington, The 5.56mm is almost twice as long vs. the .223 Remington chamber. Typically the 5.56mm round is loaded to a higher velocity and pressure level than the .223 Remmington. Firing the 5.56mm round in a .223 Remington chamber with the shorter leade can dramatically increase chamber pressures. Remington recommends against the 5.56mm cartridge being fired in a .223 chamber. UNLESS the GUN is MARKED WITH BOTH CARTRIDGE DESIGNATIONS. For example the Remington Model 7615 Patrol Rifle can Safely use both cartridges. The leade is the very small portion of a barrels rifling which slopes from the unrifiled throat to the full-depth rifiling. Although frequently refered to as the throat, there is a definite differencebetween the two. The throat is the unrifiled portion of the bore immediately ahead of the chamber, and before the leade. Bottom Line you can fire a .223 cartridge in a barrel marked 5.56mm BUT YOU CAN NOT FIRE A 5.56mm cartridge in a barrel marked .223....TK

I think there is less difference between 556 and 223 than most people realize. A lot of the ridiculous pressure numbers like 20,000 PSI come from the location and type of senors NATO uses differs from SAAMI. CIP, the European equivalent of SAAMI tests NATO and Remington chambers to the same pressure; however the loads required to produce that pressure are most likely different because the NATO chamber is bigger.

Another misconception that gets spread on the internet that there is a razors edge between perfectly safe and blowing the gun to smithereens. The reality is that rifles are pretty tough, and most rifles that experience catastrophic failures are due to them firing out of battery.

On my recent DCM gun, I replaced my NATO throat/chamber gun with a Minimum spec .223 Remington chamber. I still shoot the same 200/300 yard load as before, and shoot one of the same slow-fire 600 yard loads with a shorter overall length. With the NATO chamber, I could load really get a lot of powder behind a Sierra 80 grain, and would not be able to do the same with my short-throat gun. But, for the sake of off the shelf-ammo, 556 and 223 are probably the same damn thing; if it pierces primers, or leaves nice prominent ejector donuts...it is over-pressure.

Completely off topic.

[Divemaster]

I just read through this entire thread in one sitting. While I was greatly amused, I was also taking notes. Why? Well, certain government agencies contract me to track certain folks with my micro drones.

How micro? Sometimes real dragonflies eat them. Ever have that fly in your house that seems just a little too evasive of your swatter, like it predicts your every move? Might want to look down the block for a white rental van. Just saying.

So, how about y'all forget about the government buying a few rounds of the same ammo you carry in your evil handguns and let us get back to the business of your business. Um-kay?

ETA: Those of you who don't capitalize "Internet" (it is a proper noun) get special attention.

[longrange1947]

You may also want to look at the actual purchase orders as the latest dust up is over an order for 240,000 but someone read the unit MZ as a million, thus the reporting of 2.4 million rounds. Just saying. :munchin

[Richard]

Sounds to me like a federal plot to keep ammo out of the civilian market.....

Good one. That'll generate a spike in tin hatter web-site activity. :D :D

Richard :munchin

[Dusty]

Good one. That'll generate a spike in tin hatter web-site activity. :D :D

Richard :munchin

Not everything can be pshawed-off as paranoia.
I'd rather be ready wearing foil than dead wearing blinders, personally.

[Richard]

Not everything can be pshawed-off as paranoia.
I'd rather be ready wearing foil than dead wearing blinders, personally.

I see.

Richard :munchin

[SF18C]

ETA: Those of you who don't capitalize "Internet" (it is a proper noun) get special attention.

I say we shackle 'em up in some rail cars!

[MR2]

I say we shackle 'em up in some rail cars!

Dibs on the 'shotgun' seat!

[Dusty]

I see.

Richard :munchin

You know what I mean. I don't necessarily believe that idea personally, but-I take a look at everything.

There's been enough 1984-ish stuff going on for the last few years-I don't discount anything summarily.

[Richard]

You know what I mean. I don't necessarily believe that idea personally, but-I take a look at everything.

I do know what you mean which is why there was no pink font, and I take a much harder look at a lot of things out here in the "e-meadow" of the blogospheric forest than it may sometimes appear, too. ;)

Richard :munchin

[SF_BHT]

OK Tin Hatters...I got a link to top all the ammo/gun nonsense!

Yeah it is a few months old but come on don't let that stop a good conspiracy, you all know its because of the liberal media hiding the fact man...just open your eyes!!


http://www.pakalertpress.com/2012/10/22/fema-ordered-102000-boxcars-with-shackles/

Don't worry hey are easy to find they are all painted Black....:p

[Cordite]

As of 2008, DHS employed about 55,000 personnel authorized to carry firearms.



At the Cabinet department level, component agencies of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), including U.S. Customs and Border Protection, employed about 55,000 officers or 46% of all federal officers with arrest and firearms authority in 2008. Agencies of the Department of Justice (DOJ) employed 33.1% of all officers, followed by other executive branch agencies (12.3%), the judicial branch (4.0%), the independent agencies (3.6%) and the legislative branch (1.5%).

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/defenseandsecurity/a/Firearms-Authority-Of-Government-Agencies.htm

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/ascii/fleo08.txt

That was in 2008 when DHS employed a total of about 190,000 employees. P. 118
http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/budget_bib-fy2008.pdf

They now have 230,000 employees. So there are probably 60,000 DHS employees today packing heat.

DHS claims it uses 15 million rounds for training annually.


Training requires the use of approximately 15 million rounds of ammunition annually.


http://www.fletc.gov/training/programs/firearms-division/interesting-facts-about-the-firearms-division.html

Saw a comment on eHow that DHS uses 20 million rounds annually for training. http://www.ehow.com/about_6498894_federal-firearms-training.html

Those figures are reported by the FELTCH Training Center, whish operates at 3 locations.

The FLETC serves as an interagency law enforcement training organization for 91 Federal agencies.

The FLETC also provides services to state, local, tribal and international law enforcement agencies.

The FLETC is headquartered at Glynco, Ga., near the port city of Brunswick, halfway between Savannah, Ga., and Jacksonville, Fla. In addition to Glynco, the FLETC operates two other residential training sites in Artesia, N.M., and Charleston, S.C. The FLETC also operates a non-residential in-service re-qualification and advanced training facility in Cheltenham, Md., for use by agencies with large concentrations of personnel in the Washington, D.C., area. The FLETC has oversight and program management responsibilities at the International Law Enforcement Academies (ILEA) in Gaborone, Botswana, and Bangkok, Thailand. The FLETC also supports training at other ILEAs in Hungary and El Salvador.

http://www.fletc.gov/about-fletc

DHS employes a total of 150 people for firearms training



There are approximately 150 staff members assigned to the Firearms Division including managers, support personnel and instructors.

http://www.fletc.gov/training/programs/firearms-division/interesting-facts-about-the-firearms-division.html

The recent DHS order for 22 million rounds was to be shipped to the training center. https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=7e01b30fd254914d565c21064aaddc16&tab=core&_cview=0
That was over and above the prior orders over the last year for 1.6 billion rounds.

So I think the question still remains - why 1.6 Billion rounds that are over and above their training needs? That number would take care of their training needs for 100 years if that was the real reason. Plus, there would not be separate orders going to the Training Center in amounts that approximate their annual training needs.

The USMC uses about 70 million rounds of 5.56 (primary weapon) ball a year for training. http://www.marcorsyscom.usmc.mil/am/ammunition/Corporate_Center/Ammunition_Quarterly/Vol10No3.pdf
The USMC is the closest military service in size to the DHS (USMC - 202,000 versus DHS - 230,000). Unlike DHS, most Marines shoot. Even if DHS used 60 million rounds for training a year, the 1.6 billion number is still a 25 or so year "training" supply.

I'd sure like to know DHS's ratinale for those recent mass purchases. Or whether the figures they posted on their web site are wrong.

[Richard]

Or whether the figures they posted on their web site are wrong.

Or perhaps you don't have all the necessary data and it's your assumptions, figures, and conclusions that are wrong.

It will be interesting to see what shakes out when the DHS publicly explains their ammunition requirements and purchases.

Richard :munchin

[Cordite]

Or perhaps you don't have all the necessary data and it's your assumptions, figures, and conclusions that are wrong.

It will be interesting to see what shakes out when the DHS publicly explains their ammunition requirements and purchases.

Richard :munchin

Just going by their own information they have made public. The only thing I could conclude is that there is a significant gap between what they say they need for training, and what they report they use for training.

[SF_BHT]

We are not with DHS but are DOJ and our office goes through 10,000 +\- per 2 months just I regular range tng and we are a little office compared to the ones in CONUS. Some times more. Add our other offices in the region add 10,000 more. Add that p and it is not a drop in the bucked for one agency. We are small compared to DHS and all the collection of agencies that have rolled under them.

[Paragrouper]

I just read through this entire thread in one sitting. While I was greatly amused, I was also taking notes. Why? Well, certain government agencies contract me to track certain folks with my micro drones.

How micro? Sometimes real dragonflies eat them. Ever have that fly in your house that seems just a little too evasive of your swatter, like it predicts your every move? Might want to look down the block for a white rental van. Just saying.


So thats why that little sucker sparked when I got it with my A-Salt rifle the other day. Better luck next time.

;)

[Dusty]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04/25/reps-challenge-dhs-ammo-buys-say-agency-using-1000-more-rounds-per-person-than/


Republican Rep. Jason Chaffetz said Thursday that the Department of Homeland Security is using roughly 1,000 rounds of ammunition more per person than the U.S. Army, as he and other lawmakers sharply questioned DHS officials on their "massive" bullet buys.

"It is entirely ... inexplicable why the Department of Homeland Security needs so much ammunition," Chaffetz, R-Utah, said at a hearing.

The hearing itself was unusual, as questions about the department's ammunition purchases until recently had bubbled largely under the radar -- on blogs and in the occasional news article. But as the Department of Homeland Security found itself publicly defending the purchases, lawmakers gradually showed more interest in the issue.

Democratic Rep. John Tierney, D-Mass., at the opening of the hearing, ridiculed the concerns as "conspiracy theories" which have "no place" in the committee room.

But Republicans said the purchases raise "serious" questions about waste and accountability.

Chaffetz, who chairs one of the House oversight subcommittees holding the hearing Thursday, revealed that the department currently has more than 260 million rounds in stock. He said the department bought more than 103 million rounds in 2012 and used 116 million that same year -- among roughly 70,000 agents.

Comparing that with the small-arms purchases procured by the U.S. Army, he said the DHS is churning through between 1,300 and 1,600 rounds per officer, while the U.S. Army goes through roughly 350 rounds per soldier.

He noted that is "roughly 1,000 rounds more per person."

"Their officers use what seems to be an exorbitant amount of ammunition," he said.

Nick Nayak, chief procurement officer for the Department of Homeland Security, did not challenge Chaffetz's numbers.

However, Nayak sought to counter what he described as several misconceptions about the bullet buys.

Despite reports that the department was trying to buy up to 1.6 billion rounds over five years, he said that is not true. He later clarified that the number is closer to 750 million.

He said the department, on average, buys roughly 100 million rounds per year.

He also said claims that the department is stockpiling ammo are "simply not true." Further, he countered claims that the purchases are helping create broader ammunition shortages in the U.S.

The department has long said it needs the bullets for agents in training and on duty, and buys in bulk to save money.

While Democrats likened concerns about the purchases to conspiracy theories, Republicans raised concern about the sheer cost of the ammunition.

"This is not about conspiracy theories, this is about good government," Rep. Jim Jordan, R-Ohio, said.

Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., who chairs the full Oversight and Government Reform Committee, said he suspects rounds are being stockpiled, and then either "disposed of," passed to non-federal agencies, or shot "indiscriminately."

If that is the case, he said, "then shame on you."

Snip

[BryanK]

Now we know the reason why :eek:

DHS employee spends spare time promoting race war against 'whites' (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/08/22/dhs-employee-spends-spare-time-promoting-race-war-against-whites/) (Fox link)

Snip:

A Department of Homeland Security manager in charge of buying weapons and ammunition for the government is, on the side, running an inflammatory website that throws around gay slurs and advocates the mass murder of "whites" and the "ethnic cleansing" of "Uncle Tom race traitors," according to the Southern Poverty Law Center.

I swear, these departments keep picking real winners :rolleyes:

[PedOncoDoc]

I swear, these departments keep picking real winners :rolleyes:

It's "Change you can believe in!" :mad:

[Oldrotorhead]

It's "Change you can believe in!" :mad:

Or you get Who you pay for with a crappy back ground check.

[spherojon]

Maybe they will need that many rounds...because this guy thinks so.
Warning: Language
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VqG_4ADFfQ