View Full Version : Payton Manning coming to Denver
Well, it looks as if Payton Manning will be coming to Denver.
I just wish this "who's are quarterback here in Denver?" would just go away. First Cuttler, then Orten, then Tebow, now Manning. Just play some football why don't ya. Jeeeezzzzzzzz :rolleyes:
7SPORTS Manning To Broncos; Tebow On Trading Block
Mile High Manning: Broncos Won't Talk Until Contract Is Signed
DENVER -- 7SPORTS Anchor Lionel Bienvenu has learned that quarterback Peyton Manning has chosen to go with the Denver Broncos and has directed his agent to begin negotiating a final contract with the Broncos.
ESPN first broke the news Monday morning. ESPN's Adam Shefter tweeted, "Peyton Manning called John Elway this morning to tell him he's looking forward to coming to play for him."
Manning and Elway had already talked about a $95 million contract when Manning visited the team in Denver a little over a week ago.
Manning called the San Francisco 49ers and Tennessee Titans on Monday to tell them that he was going to the Denver Broncos, Shefter reported.
ESPN's Chris Mortensen tweeted, "And now that Peyton Manning has directed his agent to get deal done with Denver, Broncos will try to trade Tim Tebow."
Sports Illustrated's Peter King on Monday wrote that he was told by one smart football official, "His [Manning's]brain tells him San Francisco. His heart tells him Denver."
Manning's Broncos' Workout
Several Broncos executives, coaches and a medical team flew to Raleigh, North Carolina last Friday to see Manning work out at Duke University.
After the workout, Broncos Executive Vice Preisdent John Elway tweeted that Peyton Manning "threw the ball great."
Television cameras showed Elway and Broncos head coach John Fox shaking hands with Manning before the Broncos contingent got on a team plane to fly back to Denver.
"We enjoyed visiting with Peyton today in N.C. He threw the ball great and looked very comfortable out there," Elway, the Hall of Fame Broncos quarterback and team executive vice-president, tweeted on Friday afternoon.
"Watching him throw today was the next step in this important process for our team and Peyton. It was a productive visit and went well," Elway added.
The Broncos contingent that met with Manning also reportedly included offensive coordinator Mike McCoy, quarterback coach Adam Gase, general manager Brian Xanders and a medical team.
5 Teams In Hunt For Manning
After Manning was released by the Indianapolis Colts, five teams emerged as front runners to hire him: Denver Broncos, San Francisco 49ers, Tennessee Titans, Miami Dolphins and Arizona Cardinals.
Last week, Manning held workouts with the 49ers, Broncos and Titans. At that point, the Cardinals and Dolphins were told that Manning would be going elsewhere.
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/30709743/detail.html
Looks like all that prayin' Tebow did all season worked...sorta... :rolleyes:
Richard :munchin
Mixed emotions right now…I think I am feeling a little sick! Need to go home and watch the NFL Network for 3 days straight to get a handle on this one!
PedOncoDoc
03-19-2012, 11:28
I think Tebow's best course of action is to stay with the Broncos - Peyton doesn't have very many seasons left and needs a backup for when (not if) he gets hurt. Manning could be an excellent mentor for Tebow on many aspects of the game, provided both parties were interested in forming that relationship.
Roguish Lawyer
03-19-2012, 11:32
Nice spelling
Red Flag 1
03-19-2012, 11:39
Tewbo and a Manning, hmmmmmm. Not sure about this one. I think PedOnc has pretty good advice. Hell, Manning may be the back-up; he has not played for a year.
RF 1
I think Tebow's best course of action is to stay with the Broncos - Peyton doesn't have very many seasons left and needs a backup for when (not if) he gets hurt. Manning could be an excellent mentor for Tebow on many aspects of the game, provided both parties were interested in forming that relationship.
It's already been reported that Tebow is on the way out. Several teams have already shown an interest in him. Tebow couldn't handle being in Manning's shadow, even though he does need quite a bit of work, and Tim wouldn't fit into the way Manning runs his offense. Besides, Manning had said awhile ago that he doesn't care for the way that Tebow plays the game, so there would be a lot of friction in the locker room.
Nice spelling
A) Fat Fingers
B) Auto-correct
C) Product of a public education
D) All of the above.
:D
Tewbo and a Manning, hmmmmmm. Not sure about this one. I think PedOnc has pretty good advice. Hell, Manning may be the back-up; he has not played for a year.
RF 1
For a reported 4 year 95 million dollar contract .... I don't think Manning will be riding the pines this season, even if he hasn't played for over a year.
If he did, that would be one hell of an expensive towel boy. :munchin
Streck-Fu
03-19-2012, 12:08
I think Tebow's best course of action is to stay with the Broncos - Peyton doesn't have very many seasons left and needs a backup for when (not if) he gets hurt. Manning could be an excellent mentor for Tebow on many aspects of the game, provided both parties were interested in forming that relationship.
If Manning is such a great mentor, explain Chris Painter....I don't think Manning mentors; he directs. He can do...I don't think he can teach.
I never would have picked Denver for Manning. It is cold and has no dome. But then, I am no Manning fan.
Out of this process, it seems Denver has sidelined Tebow leaving him completely out of the picture while the recruit Manning. I hope Tebow tells Denver to get bent. He will never be a Manning or Elway. He needs a team that build an offense to his abilities. That is not an Elway run team. He should go to Jax where he could be a hometown hero. They have a spread friendly offense and would draw a crowd.
Tebow couldn't handle being in Manning's shadow....
Tebow is about as selfless of a player as exists in the NFL. If Denver wants him to stay he will. I don't think it's an issue of Tebow not being able to stand Manning. I would believe it more likely that Manning can't stand Tebow.
PedOncoDoc
03-19-2012, 12:25
If Manning is such a great mentor, explain Chris Painter....I don't think Manning mentors; he directs. He can do...I don't think he can teach.
I would agree if I knew that Manning had put an effort into teaching/mentoring Painter - I can't speak to whether this happened or not. Clearly his efforts were not effective if he had tried to aid in Painter's development.
DIYPatriot
03-19-2012, 13:32
I'm not sure why anyone would ever say that Peyton isn't a good teacher. He clearly demonstrates what it means to be a mentor, teacher and champion for kids in this video. Perhaps Painter was just a terrible student.
http://vimeo.com/29388983
Mixed emotions right now…I think I am feeling a little sick! Need to go home and watch the NFL Network for 3 days straight to get a handle on this one!
NFL channel won't help your emotions brother. :p
If Manning is such a great mentor, explain Chris Painter....I don't think Manning mentors; he directs. He can do...I don't think he can teach.
I never would have picked Denver for Manning. It is cold and has no dome. But then, I am no Manning fan.
Out of this process, it seems Denver has sidelined Tebow leaving him completely out of the picture while the recruit Manning. I hope Tebow tells Denver to get bent. He will never be a Manning or Elway. He needs a team that build an offense to his abilities. That is not an Elway run team. He should go to Jax where he could be a hometown hero. They have a spread friendly offense and would draw a crowd.
Tebow is about as selfless of a player as exists in the NFL. If Denver wants him to stay he will. I don't think it's an issue of Tebow not being able to stand Manning. I would believe it more likely that Manning can't stand Tebow.
I too was never would have thought for a second Manning would pick Denver as "HIS" team. The hell with the cold and no dome. Think about how many games a season have snow around the field?? Maybe one a season, now play offs.. different story.
I am no Manning fan and my Wife hates him. I am really going to like to see what happen the first game. Denver wasn't a Manning fan either. I don't see Manning mentoring going on between tge two of them. Tebow would have two of the best QB in football history to mentor him. Manning will be hurt and a back up will need to step up. I see Tebow going back home to Florida.
Tebow is going to be hard press to leave. When Denver made it to the play offs, I remember the Steelers game. Ever pre-game commentator was giving their expert option on how Tebow could win and so surprised as what he has done. Most were NFL coaches whoms teams didn't make it into the play offs. So I'm basing my option that Tebow will find it hard for a NFL team to take him as their Main Quarterback.
Fan Base for Tebow is bigger than Denver. Here in North Carolina Tebow is the talk due to what he does for charity fundraisers and Military. When he does leave Denver he will have a large following and be welcome in open arms. From his Florida follwoers, right wing religious :p and the all to crazy tebowing-ers.
One thing for sure.. it will be crazy for the next couple of days.. hell this week.
I have always been a Denver fan first, but Peyton has been my favorite player for a long time so I have always rooted for the Colts (as long as they weren't playing Denver). I love Tebow, regardless of his playing style, and will continue to follow and root for the team he goes to (provided it isn't Oakland) :)
My heart hopes he stays in Denver. With the right coaching/mentoring he could be the next Bronco franchise QB.
Tebow should go Jacksonville or Miami so they can sell a ticket next year. I don't think there is a ton of mentoring going on between star NFL QB's and their backups, while Steve Young and Aaron Rodgers surely learned from watching Montana and Favre up close, relations were frosty. From the point of view of the incumbent why should he train up a talented younger guy to take his job in a "replacement business". The onus is on the young guy to watch and learn. Not sure how many selfless guys in the NFL, especially at that position.
It does seems different if you bring in a journeyman QB for a year or so like a Chad Pennington or John Kitna who know they are near the end to help prepare a young first round draft pick, but in that situation everyone knows he is there to mentor and prepare.
If anyone is beating man. Seems like Vegas odds for Denver Broncos with manning are 20:1 all the way to 8:1. When with Tebow at QB yesterday was 75:1.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/la-sp-sn-manning-las-vegas-20120319,0,4456428.story
Tebow is about as selfless of a player as exists in the NFL.Then why does he not yet know how to throw a football with the accuracy required of a professional quarterback? Why does he instead needs a bespoke offense?
Tim Tebow: Where does he go now? Four teams that might fit.
CSM, 19 mAR 2012
Tim Tebow is surely gone now that Peyton Manning has chosen to join the Denver Broncos. The question now is whether any team wants to adapt itself to the Tim Tebow style.
Why couldn't Tebow become Manning's understudy?
For one, Tebow is a running quarterback with poor passing skills. He would likely have trouble serving as a backup in an offense tailor-made for Manning, who relies on quick releases from an accurate arm and an ability to read a defenses.
What’s more, Manning is famous for hoarding practice time. In Indianapolis, his backups took few snaps in practice and therefore got little opportunity to learn the offense Manning runs. For Tebow, a fierce competitor who needs to work on his development, such a fate would probably be far worse than being traded.
So who might want Tebow?
By all accounts he is a tireless worker and a fast learner, and the Broncos proved that a team willing to craft an offense around his running style can have success – and even win a playoff game. Moreover, his fervent following would virtually guarantee fans in seats for franchises with attendance problems.
Still, a suitor could be hard to find. Building a team around Tebow means running counter to the current trend in the National Football League of building teams around exceptional passers.
One option is for Tebow to reunite with the coach who drafted him – Josh McDaniels, who is now the offensive coordinator for the New England Patriots. Rumors are swirling that he could end up backing up Tom Brady.
He could also wind up in Green Bay, where the exit of backup Matt Flynn has left room for a solid No. 2.
Another options is the Miami Dolphins, who are looking for star power – and there is no bigger draw for Florida football fans than their native son.
That brings us, inevitably, to the Jaguar in the room. Tim Tebow signing with his hometown Jacksonville Jaguars and reinvigorating the franchise has been a pipe dream for long-suffering Jacksonville fans ever since Tebow was a Florida Gator, an hour away at the University of Florida.
(Cont'd) http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Sports/2012/0319/Tim-Tebow-Where-does-he-go-now-Four-teams-that-might-fit
Selfless = unselfish = team player...
Then why does he not yet know how to throw a football with the accuracy required of a professional quarterback? Why does he instead needs a bespoke offense?
And the correlation between throwing an accurate spiral and being a team player is?
Please don't bother with a narrative - that is a rhetorical question from someone who has played with and against some of the better NCAA Division 1 players albeit in another sport.
Like him or not, Tebow is a team player and anyone who has played at a reasonably high level can see and sense it from his play and from the comments made by his teammates and his coaches.
Tebow may or may not make it big in the NFL - but not because he is selfish.
Now, his positions on feminist theory may be wide open for your analysis. :D
Then why does he not yet know how to throw a football with the accuracy required of a professional quarterback? Why does he instead needs a bespoke offense?
One has nothing to do with the other IMHO. My understanding is his work ethic is above reproach. He shows up to practice early and stays late. He has a Heisman trophy and a national championship, that speaks for itself. His teammates love and respect him. He may not make it in the NFL, but he will be highly successful in whatever he chooses to do with his life. If more people had the selfless nature of tebow, this world would be a better place.
brokenvan
03-20-2012, 12:07
As soon as it was mentioned that if Manning went to Denver, Tebow would be traded, I have been Tebowing to make sure it happened.
I've been reading up on the new Jaguars owner, Shahid Khan, and his position is that he would take Tebow in a heartbeat and that the Jags dropped the ball by not drafting him. Jacksonville would benefit significantly from Tebow's presence. Not only is Tebow the most polarizing player in the NFL today and draws huge media attention, he sells huge amounts of merchandise, and everybody in Jacksonville loves him due to him being the hometown hero from both high school and at Florida. He would immediately draw the fans back to Jags games, which has been a huge problem for the past 6 years or so and boost national coverage, saving the Jags from moving elsewhere and bringing in the money they need to draw higher end players to build a playoff caliber team. Maurice Jones-Drew and Tebow would be a mean 1-2 punch in the Jags' rushing game. And anybody on the planet is better than Blaine Gabbert.
Streck-Fu
03-20-2012, 12:38
Then why does he not yet know how to throw a football with the accuracy required of a professional quarterback? Why does he instead needs a bespoke offense?
You lost me there.....I wrote that he is among the most selfless, not most talented.
Tim Tebow: Where does he go now? Four teams that might fit.
CSM, 19 mAR 2012
Tim Tebow is surely gone now that Peyton Manning has chosen to join the Denver Broncos. The question now is whether any team wants to adapt itself to the Tim Tebow style.
Why couldn't Tebow become Manning's understudy?
For one, Tebow is a running quarterback with poor passing skills. He would likely have trouble serving as a backup in an offense tailor-made for Manning, who relies on quick releases from an accurate arm and an ability to read a defenses.
What’s more, Manning is famous for hoarding practice time. In Indianapolis, his backups took few snaps in practice and therefore got little opportunity to learn the offense Manning runs. For Tebow, a fierce competitor who needs to work on his development, such a fate would probably be far worse than being traded.
So who might want Tebow?
By all accounts he is a tireless worker and a fast learner, and the Broncos proved that a team willing to craft an offense around his running style can have success – and even win a playoff game. Moreover, his fervent following would virtually guarantee fans in seats for franchises with attendance problems.
Still, a suitor could be hard to find. Building a team around Tebow means running counter to the current trend in the National Football League of building teams around exceptional passers.
One option is for Tebow to reunite with the coach who drafted him – Josh McDaniels, who is now the offensive coordinator for the New England Patriots. Rumors are swirling that he could end up backing up Tom Brady.
He could also wind up in Green Bay, where the exit of backup Matt Flynn has left room for a solid No. 2.
Another options is the Miami Dolphins, who are looking for star power – and there is no bigger draw for Florida football fans than their native son.
That brings us, inevitably, to the Jaguar in the room. Tim Tebow signing with his hometown Jacksonville Jaguars and reinvigorating the franchise has been a pipe dream for long-suffering Jacksonville fans ever since Tebow was a Florida Gator, an hour away at the University of Florida.
(Cont'd) http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Sports/2012/0319/Tim-Tebow-Where-does-he-go-now-Four-teams-that-might-fit
Amen to all above... so true.
Tebow will be the QB for Jacksonville for next season.
Denver put a "health clause" in this contract from what I've heard. WTH is with Denver unretiring number 18 from the great Orange Crush year. Frank Tripucka is stated to give tge okay too.
You lost me there.....I wrote that he is among the most selfless, not most talented.I am of the school of thought that there's no such thing as "talent," that expertise in a domain of knowledge is a skill, and that such expertise can be taught. When a professional athlete does not refine a central skill set, it is because he/she is either poorly motivated and/or he or she is poorly coached.*
NFL analysts, including HOF "running quarterbacks" John Elway and Steve Young, spent much of last season laying out what Tebow needs to do to be an effective professional quarterback. They did not say anything about Tebow that had not been discussed since his days at Florida. Denver is an organization that excels at player development. It signed a player in the twilight of his career and has decided apparently not to invest any more time in Tebow. MOO, this fact pattern is an implicit indictment of the man's motivation to maximize his potential as a professional athlete.
If Tebow is as selfless as many believe, then why hasn't he either (a) developed the skills that characterize today's winning QB, or (b) shown enough signs for Denver to stand pat, or (c) told his coaching staff to play him at a different position so he could fulfill the needs of the Broncos and bring to bear his athletic and leadership skills?
:munchin
_______________________________________
* K. Anders Ericsson and Neil Charness, “Expert Performance: Its Structure and Acquisition,” American Psychologist 49:8 (August 1994): 725-747; K. Anders Ericsson, Ralf Th. Krampe, and Clemens Tesch-Römer, “ The Role of Deliberate Practice in the Acquisition of Expert Performance,” Psychological Review 100:3 (1993): 363-406; Geoffrey R. Norman and Henk G. Scmidt, “The Psychological Basis of Problem-based Learning: A Review of the Evidence,” Academic Medicine 67:9 (September 1992):557-565 provide the information used in this post. Yes, this is a reference that I cut and paste from a previous post.:rolleyes::o:D
Then why does he not yet know how to throw a football with the accuracy required of a professional quarterback? Why does he instead needs a bespoke offense?
Most NFL teams cater their offense to their QB, Tebow being an extreme example, it's clear no one corrected his long delivery from when he was a kid.
Tom Brady or Manning are excellent dropback passers, but wouldn't be nearly as effective in for example Mike Shanahans offense which requires the QB to bootleg or roll out and throw on the run frequently. Donovan Mcnabb on the other hand was very mobile with a cannon, but not very accurate, he did best when he could roll out and throw deep with his cannon, precise intermediate timing routes were never his thing. Aaron Rodgers can do anything.
Tebow and the Wildcat, are a blast from the past actually, the wildcat is very close to the old single wing offense, which was THE OFFENSE in American football until the 50's. The service academies, the four horsemen of Notre Dame, all ran the single wing. In this offense a big fullback type like Tebow was the primary ball handler, he either ran or threw, the emphasis focused on power running, misdirection, and an occasional long pass.
Tebow is guilty only of not winning the way the current generation is used to seeing QB's win. The NFL isn't about style points, any young QB who takes a 1-4 team to the playoffs and beats Pittsburg should get some credit. I don't know if Tebow will continue to develop and have success, I root for him because he is a winner and a gentleman. Human beings want to be led, and he is an exceptional leader in a team sport.
Sacamuelas
03-20-2012, 15:46
I think T'beaux needs to consider being a backup QB for the Carolina panthers. He could backup "Scam" newton... when scam goes down with an injury or grand jury investigation, t'beaux would fit right into the offensive system. His Running backs, linemen, and receivers would already fit the system, and he could keep learning and progressing while warming the bench. Just a thought.....
Streck-Fu
03-20-2012, 16:30
I am of the school of thought that there's no such thing as "talent," that expertise in a domain of knowledge is a skill, and that such expertise can be taught.
So, given enough instruction and practice, you could be a highly effective NFL QB?
So, given enough instruction and practice, you could be a highly effective NFL QB? If you want to develop a serious argument about the role of talent, some of the essays in The Road To Excellence: The Acquisition of Expert Performance in the Arts and Sciences, Sports, and Games (1996) might be of interest to you.
Or we can just go with snark. There have been very successful professional football players of all sizes and shapes in the history of the NFL. Why have they succeeded while others like Tebow have not? Did they pray harder or did they do a better job at figuring out what they needed to learn and then put in the work to get better?
The answer to the previous question--if not also yours--is the concept of "directed practice" and what is known popularly as the 10,000 hour rule. That is, if one is properly motivated, has expert coaching, and the ability to put in 10,000 hours of directed practice, then one can achieve a very high level of expertise in a domain of knowledge.*
__________________________________________________ ___
* For a discussion of what constitutes "expertise," I found the essays in K. Anders Ericcson and Jacqui Smith, eds, Toward a General Theory of Expertise: Prospects and Limits (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1991) useful. YMMV.
I am of the school of thought that there's no such thing as "talent," that expertise in a domain of knowledge is a skill, and that such expertise can be taught. When a professional athlete does not refine a central skill set, it is because he/she is either poorly motivated and/or he or she is poorly coached.*
NFL analysts, including HOF "running quarterbacks" John Elway and Steve Young, spent much of last season laying out what Tebow needs to do to be an effective professional quarterback. They did not say anything about Tebow that had not been discussed since his days at Florida. Denver is an organization that excels at player development. It signed a player in the twilight of his career and has decided apparently not to invest any more time in Tebow. MOO, this fact pattern is an implicit indictment of the man's motivation to maximize his potential as a professional athlete.
Sig, I would disagree, talent absolutely exists, though talent without practice, discipline, and motivation rarely succeeds and is wasted. If you don't have the prerequisite raw foot speed, a lifetime of dedication and coaching will not get you on the US Olympic sprint team, a lot of folks put in the 10,000 hours or whatever at the piano or chessboard few have the results of a Mozart or Bobby Fisher. Factors such as discipline can influence outcomes where the talent is somewhat comparable. Duke basketball is always disciplined, dedicated, and competitive yet few of their players go on to star in the NBA. The NBA game is different emphasizing athleticism. If talent didn't exist, if it was say simply a matter of coaching, motivation, and discipline, West Point and Annapolis would still be dominating college football, back in the day they got the big time athletes like Roger Staubach, those guys go to USC or Florida now.
The other thing is football like everything changes, both in patterns and trends, the NFL is much more athletic a wide open WR in the NFL is a three yard window, which is "covered" in college. Tebow can't currently consistently make this throw, he can however lead, run many defenders over, and steps up his game throws included, in the clutch. He does seem to have that intangible ability to win in the clutch the great ones do, if he continues to evolve and wins a SB you will see other big running Qb's in copycat just like Antonio Gates opened the door for collegiate hoop players who want to play tight end in the NFL.
I'm not sure if this kid is going to be a great NFL QB, part of that is luck and circumstance, recall Terrell Davis saved John Elway from being half of "the greatest QB who never won a superbowl" debate.
As far as I'm concerned the book on Tebow is he led his high school team to a state championship, he then led his college team to a national championship, and won a Heisman. Then in his first year as an NFL starter he led a 1-4 Broncos team to the playoffs and won a playoff game, before losing to Tom Brady. I don't know how this story turns out, watching this guy play football is like watching a bad Disney movie on repeat, but he is magical in the clutch, he wins and his teammates believe in him, I wouldn't short this guy.
Streck-Fu
03-20-2012, 17:39
If you want to develop a serious argument about the role of talent, some of the essays in The Road To Excellence: The Acquisition of Expert Performance in the Arts and Sciences, Sports, and Games (1996) might be of interest to you.
Oh, great, an essay....
I've participated in individual and team sports and can say for a fact based on observation that individuals have varying levels of ability. For some, higher levels of skill comes more easily and naturally than it does to others. This doesn't require the review of studies and methodology. There is a reason it is part of our common knowledge that some people are better at certain things than others.
I can train all I want to with the best tools and coaches and will never run as fast as Jesse Owen. Talent.
Fact, that doesn't require a essay to be a 'serious' discussion or for you to even answer the question posed..... ;)
If you want to develop a serious argument about the role of talent, some of the essays in The Road To Excellence: The Acquisition of Expert Performance in the Arts and Sciences, Sports, and Games (1996) might be of interest to you.
Or we can just go with snark. There have been very successful professional football players of all sizes and shapes in the history of the NFL. Why have they succeeded while others like Tebow have not? Did they pray harder or did they do a better job at figuring out what they needed to learn and then put in the work to get better?
The answer to the previous question--if not also yours--is the concept of "directed practice" and what is known popularly as the 10,000 hour rule. That is, if one is properly motivated, has expert coaching, and the ability to put in 10,000 hours of directed practice, then one can achieve a very high level of expertise in a domain of knowledge.*
__________________________________________________ ___
* For a discussion of what constitutes "expertise," I found the essays in K. Anders Ericcson and Jacqui Smith, eds, Toward a General Theory of Expertise: Prospects and Limits (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1991) useful. YMMV.
If anyone is being snarky here it is you. You can say all you want that he is not willing to change, but you don't know that. You quote some study and use that as proof to critisize him. Have you ever attended one of his workouts? Have you ever been to a Broncos practice? I would think someone of your pedigree would acknowledge that some study needs to be done to come to an accurate conclusion. You can quote line and phrase on any paper, essay, or book you like. It is a poor substitute for facts, of which you seem to have little about Tebow. Even the die hard Tebow hater analysts will say he improved over the last year. A year by the way with a lockout in which he got no preseason training. Even the harshet of critics acknowledge that if he had the preseason to work on technique he would have probably seen a greater improvement over thst he already exhibited.
{yawn} The NFL's on-going colonoscopy sweepstakes... {yawn}
And so it goes... :rolleyes:
Richard :munchin
The Reaper
03-20-2012, 19:06
I have to marvel at the prognosticators who are predicting the failure of a talented rookie pro athlete who made it very close to the Super Bowl in his first season leading the Broncos.
If I had those skills to predict careers after only one season, I could make a killing at the Sports tables in Vegas.
I guess we can review this in a couple of years and see who was right.
And I wish the best of luck to both Tebow and Manning. Denver is making a hell of a wager themselves, they are betting on the short term over the long. They better buy Manning some serious protection to boot.
TR
Streck-Fu
03-20-2012, 20:02
Kind of pathetic the way it's being handled.
LINK (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AqdXEseRNXKKntaoR81d1vFDubYF?slug=dw-wetzel_peyton_manning_broncos_tebow_elway_032012)
‘Great guy’ Tim Tebow not good enough for John Elway, Broncos
John Elway said that if he could pick someone to marry his daughter it’d be Tim Tebow. Peyton Manning claimed, “I’m a fan of his.” Both the Denver Broncos’ executive vice president and his prized free-agent signing declared Tuesday, repeatedly, that Tebow is a great player.
Then the two Hall of Famers (one current, one future) – the two chosen ones of the NFL – kept laughing and smiling about their future in Denver, a future without Tebow.
What if Manning gets hurt, Elway was asked. What’s Plan B?
“Plan B?” Elway said, incredulous. “We don’t have a Plan B. We’re going with Plan A.”
So, it’s all but official: Manning in and Tebow out in Denver. Two and a half months ago Tebow delivered an overtime touchdown pass to beat the Pittsburgh Steelers in the playoffs, the pinnacle of a season where he rescued the Broncos.
Now he’s all but gone. Elway told him he might be traded and that means he will be traded.
It also means Tebow’s NFL career, brief as it has been, is at a crossroads. And the reason isn’t merely that he isn’t as good of a quarterback as Manning.
“He said, ‘we’re talking about Peyton Manning and I understand exactly what you’re doing,’ ” Elway said of his conversation with Tebow on Monday, when the news of Manning’s acquisition was explained.
Actually, we’re not really talking about Peyton Manning. Oh, Manning provided the perfect cover here, the perfect solution to the Tebow dilemma. This may have been the most polite and uplifting public firing ever – Tebow could’ve signed a lifetime contract and gotten less praise then he did Tuesday.
It doesn’t mean the message wasn’t clear. It was the ultimate “it’s-not-you, it’s-us” breakup, except it was really “it’s-not-you, it’s-your-fans.”
Tebowmania is overwhelming Tebow.
Let’s be clear here, Denver made the best possible decision in signing Manning. It is apparent that Manning is recovering well from his neck ailments that cost him the 2011 season and his 14-year run in Indianapolis. He both worked out for and subjected himself to medical evaluations from three separate teams. All liked what they saw.
“That kind of liberated me a bit,” Manning said.
If he’s back, then Denver just got one of the top three or four quarterbacks in the game. So this is a move to compete for a Super Bowl, which Elway noted was the only real goal of the franchise.
Yet, Denver thinks it can do that better without Tebow as a reserve even though he is a 24-year-old former first-round draft pick who came off the bench last year and saved the season. It believes this even though the franchise raved about his work ethic, professionalism and the way he carries himself as a person. It is convinced even though he couldn’t have accepted the news of his demotion any better.
“He is a great kid,” Elway said. “If there is one guy I want to marry my daughter it’s him.”
And yet he isn’t a suitable backup?
Denver knows Tebow isn’t good enough in a traditional offense and, to use the term in a way it perhaps never has before, his “baggage” (i.e. popularity) is too great to have sitting on the bench. Even behind a four-time MVP.
“It would be our goal to get him in the best situation for him to have success also,” Elway said.
Well, there are two options here. One is a franchise that will restructure its entire offense and commit fully to him for the extended future. That is, almost by definition, a team that both isn’t very good and is very desperate to sell tickets.
The other is a place with a rock-solid starting quarterback, a strong-willed head coach and a creative mindset to find a use for him. Ideally, that’s the New England Patriots.
He isn’t a very attractive backup. He isn’t an ideal guy for a quarterback derby. The fan pressure could be too great. If two legends such as John Elway and Peyton Manning don’t want him on the depth chart, then how do less-established, less-legendary combinations take that route?
At this point Tebow is a prisoner to his own off-the-field popularity, a rather tough reality considering he didn’t really try to create it in the first place. No, Tebow hasn’t shied away from attention or outreach or providing a running testimony for his faith.
However, he also has turned down a million chances to feed the fire. This could be bigger. Way bigger. He could be basking in this popularity far more than he is. Instead he remains a mostly low-key, off-the-beaten path, just-give-me-a-chance-to-improve kind of guy.
It’s the people around him, including some of his own fans, that create the circus that he must overcome.
The best place for Tebow is actually within a system of an established organization. In Green Bay or New Orleans or certainly New England, he could ride out this storm and maybe learn from a guy who is clearly better than him.
The Patriots would be ideal because Tom Brady is the unquestioned king of the franchise and Bill Belichick would never bend to the will of anyone. So it’s no use trying.
Belichick was intrigued enough in Tebow to bring him in during the 2010 predraft process. The Pats’ current offensive coordinator, Josh McDaniels, was the coach in Denver when the Broncos drafted Tebow. They’ve spent years finding unique ways to use the uniquely talented – which means Tebow would be contributing, but not causing a quarterback controversy.
The best thing to happen to Aaron Rodgers was spending three seasons in Green Bay learning how to be a quarterback under Brett Favre. Brady sat behind Drew Bledsoe. A similar internship might be the ideal career path for Tebow.
For Tebow to get thrown into a franchise role with an organization that wants him as much for his box-office pull as football ability would be risky. Tebow will spin turn-styles in Jacksonville or Miami, but since when did that plan ever win games? And it’s one thing for an owner to want you, but what of the actual football staff?
“If football is No. 1 [a franchise has] got a chance to be competitive in the NFL,” Elway said, speaking of Denver’s insistent on putting business interests second.
It should serve as an unintended bit of advice for Tim Tebow.
He’s the first to say he needs to work on his game. He’s never had consistent pro coaching and a full NFL offseason to improve. He’s never had a real plan.
And if he ends up in the wrong place, he isn’t going to get one.
On Tuesday, Tebow had to watch one of football’s most surreal moments, a press conference to essentially announce his firing, where he was praised relentlessly by two of the all-time greats.
They hailed him for his intangibles. They noted his ability. They swore by his potential. They couldn’t have been nicer.
And they couldn’t have been showing him the door any faster.
craigepo
03-21-2012, 04:41
I am of the school of thought that there's no such thing as "talent," that expertise in a domain of knowledge is a skill, and that such expertise can be taught. When a professional athlete does not refine a central skill set, it is because he/she is either poorly motivated and/or he or she is poorly coached.*
I would have to disagree with these authors. Experience has taught me that every human has stuff they are good at and stuff they are not good at. Does not having a talent for something mean that you can't do it better? No. But does it mean that a person will be at a serious disadvantage when attempting to perform that particular activity/function at a professional level? Yes.
Try as I might, I suck at painting and drawing. I have read that Mozart and Beethoven "thought" musically---I can't write a symphony. I must have thrown a baseball one gajillion times, never could throw a 90-mph fastball, a good curve, and my knuckleball never knuckled.
I kinda like Tebow, and I am sure that having played for the University of Florida, then Denver, he has spent countless hours practicing, under some of the best coaches money can buy. And clearly his technique is not the greatest. That said, I doubt he will ever be able to throw a football like Bret Favre.
Professional quarterback has to be the most difficult position to play in all of sports. I can't imagine breaking a huddle, walking to the line of scrimmage and trying to discern what defense the other team was in, whether the defense was zone, man-to-man, dropping back into pass coverage, showing a blitz, or actually blitzing, whether my number 1 receiver was going to be double-teamed, whether the hot route was viable, etc. I would love to see the size of the machine it would take to be able to do what Manning, Brady, Favre and quarterbacks of that ilk could do.
I remember sitting in an economics class, discussing the theory of a market economy utilizing money to pay for scarce talent. The professor used Joe Montana as an example. He made an interesting point, that Montana was being paid tons of money because he did things nobody else could do. Not everybody could lead the 49ers in a comeback, down by 6 points with a couple minutes to play, and throw a touchdown pass to get the team into the Super Bowl, dodging 250-pound linebackers in the process.
ZonieDiver
03-21-2012, 09:54
John Elway is an ass, and always has been. He's proved it with the way he's handled Tebow. MOO
John Elway is an ass, and always has been. He's proved it with the way he's handled Tebow. MOO
You got that right.
Oh, great, an essay....
I've participated in individual and team sports and can say for a fact based on observation that individuals have varying levels of ability. For some, higher levels of skill comes more easily and naturally than it does to others. This doesn't require the review of studies and methodology. There is a reason it is part of our common knowledge that some people are better at certain things than others.
I can train all I want to with the best tools and coaches and will never run as fast as Jesse Owen. Talent.
Fact, that doesn't require a essay to be a 'serious' discussion or for you to even answer the question posed..... ;)Your argument is basically that your own personal experience in athletics, your own anecdotal observations and musings, and "common knowledge" trump (a) the work of cognitive psychologists who have spent years of man hours trying to figure out what expertise is and how it is obtained by studying and interviewing elites in a range of domains, including sports, and (b) the conclusions a professional NFL team and current NFL analysts--including former quarterbacks--about Tebow's ability to develop into an elite quarterback.
In other words, when it comes to someone one likes or admires, research-based peer-reviewed literature about the nature of professional expertise does not matter--especially when that research is based on the observations of and interviews with elite athletes. Likewise, the views of those who played the position or make a living out of coaching in the NFL do not matter. Instead, the factors that really matter are one's own experiences, observations, and "common knowledge."
Well, if this line of reasoning works for you, we will have to agree to disagree. I will continue to subscribe to the controversial view that professionals know something about what they do for a living, that professionals are in the best position to determine the specifications of their craft, and that expert performance is the result of professional training in an environment of "perfect practice".*
Notwithstanding our differing views, my intellectual curiosity prompts the following questions. What are the implications for American society if your line of thought is followed consistently? How do we respond to the logical extension of your line of thought when someone says "No, he cannot meet the professional standards of the job, nor can he do work up to specification, and the professionals think he'll never learn his craft well enough get to where he needs to be, but he's well liked by the people, and 'common knowledge' says that he's a great guy, so should give him a pass."
If anyone is being snarky here it is you. You can say all you want that he is not willing to change, but you don't know that. You quote some study and use that as proof to critisize him. Have you ever attended one of his workouts? Have you ever been to a Broncos practice? I would think someone of your pedigree would acknowledge that some study needs to be done to come to an accurate conclusion. You can quote line and phrase on any paper, essay, or book you like. It is a poor substitute for facts, of which you seem to have little about Tebow. Even the die hard Tebow hater analysts will say he improved over the last year. A year by the way with a lockout in which he got no preseason training. Even the harshet of critics acknowledge that if he had the preseason to work on technique he would have probably seen a greater improvement over thst he already exhibited.AFCHIC--
The fact pattern remains the same as I pointed out in post #23, above. Since 2007, experts have raised questions about Tebow's ability to play quarterback in the NFL. Some of these experts include former NFL quarterbacks, the front offices of the twenty four NFL teams who passed on Tebow in the 2010 draft, and, most tellingly, the front office of the team that did draft him--which has seen him practice and play.
That is, while Tebow polarizes football fans, there is less debate over Tebow's ability to develop into a franchise quarterback among the experts. Why? Why is it that teams that take risks by drafting and holding on to players that they think will develop have stayed away from Tebow? Are they all wrong and Tebow's admirers right? Does Tebow get all the credit for his success while not having to be held accountable in any way for his shortcomings because some find his personality likable?
If I sound snarky it is because I'm not bitter. This country is in a period in which popularity increasingly short circuits critical inquiry and debate. Athletes like Tim Tebow and Jeremy Lin will generate millions of dollars in revenue because of this dynamic (regardless of their completion percentages or assist to turnover ratios). Madonna will rake in cash by the bushel when she drags her legions of fans into arenas when she goes on tour this summer. It is only a matter of time before we get to rush to yet another film by Michael Bay. And Mark Burnett and Simon Cowell will continue to feed us competitive reality television program as long as we're willing to eat it up. Well, it is a free market and a free country so people can spend their money and their time as they wish. If people want to play Kobe Bryant is the greatest basketball player of all time because he's my favorite player, that's their choice.
Then again, in 2008, a junior senator from Illinois used his popularity to brush aside efforts to vet his qualifications as he ran for the nation's highest elected office. As president, this person has repeatedly pointed to his perception of "common knowledge" and relied on his popularity (such as it is) to put in place controversial policies and to pressure congress into passing legislation of questionable merit. As president, this person is positioning himself for a landslide victory in 2012 because many citizens will continue to support candidates they like at the expense of those who might govern effectively.
My $0.02.
______________________________________________
* Interestingly, the United States Navy--as well as the historians who study it-- have been at the forefront of this line of thought since at least the late 1800s.
Then again, in 2008, a junior senator from Illinois used his popularity to brush aside efforts to vet his qualifications as he ran for the nation's highest elected office. As president, this person has repeatedly pointed to his perception of "common knowledge" and relied on his popularity (such as it is) to put in place controversial policies and to pressure congress into passing legislation of questionable merit. As president, this person is positioning himself for a landslide victory in 2012 because many citizens will continue to support candidates they like at the expense of those who might govern effectively.
My $0.02.
______________________________________________
* Interestingly, the United States Navy--as well as the historians who study it-- have been at the forefront of this line of thought since at least the late 1800s.
We need a horselaugh smiley.
Oh, there's mosdef gonna be a landslide, though.
We need a horselaugh smiley.
;)
Sigaba ........
Streck-Fu ........
afchic .......
WOW !!!!!!!!!! :eek:
Only on PS.com can you log into a thread about football ..... and watch a hockey game break out.
:munchin :munchin :munchin
Streck-Fu
03-21-2012, 18:46
Your argument is basically that ....
Your basic argument is that with enough practice, this guy could be a Super Bowl winning quarterback....
;)
Didn't say "horse's ass". :D
Didn't say "horse's ass". :D
D'oh! My bad. :D
Pat
Sig I love you but you have totally lost me. You're initial point was that Tebow isn't as selfless as everyone proclaims, because if he was, he would be a better quarterback. Now you are saying maybe he just doesn't have the talent. One has nothing to do with the other.
When i was growing up I wanted to be Mary Decker-Tab more than life itself. When she and Zola Budd got entangled and she left the race during the 84 Olympics I was inconsolable. At that time I was a runner, and a fairly decent one at that, but i was NEVER going to be the next Mary Decker. I was too tall, and had too much muscle from doing anaerobic sprinting. No amount of training was going to make me a world class distance runner, it wasn't in my DNA. I had the heart, but not the capacity.
Maybe no amount if training will ever allow Tebow to throw a perfect spiral consistently, that does not take away from a young man, who by all appearances and hopes of the contrary, make him the human being he is, and that points to being pretty selfless.
Guess we are going to have to agree to disagree my friend.
GratefulCitizen
03-22-2012, 17:17
So far:
-Tebow is obviously a great raw athlete
-Tebow is rumored to exhibit great discipline in training
-Tebow appears to be leader, affecting the performance of those around him
and most importantly...
-Tebow has an established track record of overcoming and succeeding
Not someone I'd bet against over the long haul.
YMMV.