View Full Version : Afghan civilians killed...........
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/11/world/asia/afghanistan-us-service-member/index.html?hpt=wo_c2
Here we go again, hang on tight because this ride is about to get bumpy............
Wonder how this transpired?
:confused:
BMT (RIP)
03-11-2012, 09:37
Sure would hate to be in his COC!!
BMT
I am also a member of a civilian owned military discussion forum,the muslim country members there have these opinion's:
1)When an Afghan kills an American Soldier:The American deserved it more to come.
2)When an American soldier kills/pisses/beats an Afghan:Americans are monsters torturing the Afghans they should leave soon.
What do I think of this incident?
American soldiers are having a hard time in Afghanistan psychologically and now with all these killing of ISAF,American troops by Afghan Army soldiers,civilians will make them angry no doubt about that.It is in the discipline in the US Military that they remain quiet about it,bottle their anger and keep doing the job they are sent to do in A'stan but not everyone will hold on long some soldier will lose it and do something like this.
What worries is me what will happen to this soldier in 2009 3 Navy SEALs were almost subject to a court martial when they caught a terrorist guilty of killing American contractors one of whom was a former SEAL ,accused them of punching him.Here civilians have been killed it is scary to think what action will be taken against him.
I feel for every soldier out there fighting in a place thousands of miles away where the citizens of that country don't want him,they don't know what tyrants they have received liberation from due to the acts of these soldiers.
Afghanistan is a screwed up place.
1stindoor
03-11-2012, 11:04
What's even more damning is all the "news" reports out there. Everyone is reporting on it...very few have accurate reports.
This one is so far out there in left field that it's not even funny.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/11/soldier-shooting-afghanistan_n_1337406.html
Huffpost is causing much more harm than good.
I feel for every soldier out there fighting in a place thousands of miles away where the citizens of that country don't want him,they don't know what tyrants they have received liberation from due to the acts of these soldiers.
Well said.
Those of you out there right now, thanks for your willingness to do those things that may seem futile, for my benefit while I sit in comfort today. Prayers that your missions are completed successfully and you return home safe to your families.
This is the link to the forum I was talking about,it is a direct link to the afghan topic.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/164633-us-soldier-kills-afghan-civilians-kandahar.html
Mods,
If this post is not required here please take the appropriate action.
Horned Frog
03-11-2012, 12:02
I'm concerned that in every news report I've read on this incident and the Afghan soldiers' "retaliation" for the quran burning, the American military has been blamed for the incident occurring in the first place. This one may have been correct in that stance; unwarranted killing of unarmed civilians is a war crime, and if that is what happened, this guy deserves to be punished. However, it bothers me that American news outlets are unwilling to give American soldiers the benefit of doubt, and assume them innocent until proven guilty. Any taliban reading yahoo news could just pack up and go home for the day; his job has already been done for him in convincing people we are evil oppressors out to destroy Afghanistan.
GEN John R. Allen, ISAF Cdr, released the following statement:
"I was shocked and saddened to hear of the shooting incident today in Kandahar Province. I offer my profound regret and deepest condolences to the victims and their families. I pledge to all the noble people of Afghanistan my commitment to a rapid and thorough investigation.
In the meantime, we will continue to offer medical care for those who were injured in this shooting. We will maintain custody of the U.S. service member alleged to have perpetrated this attack. And we will cooperate fully with local Afghan authorities as we ascertain all the facts.
This deeply appalling incident in no way represents the values of ISAF and coalition troops or the abiding respect we feel for the Afghan people. Nor does it impugn or diminish the spirit of cooperation and partnership we have worked so hard to foster with the Afghan National Security Forces.
The men and women of ISAF join me in my sadness and they join me in extending their condolences.
I am absolutely dedicated to making sure that anyone who is found to have committed wrong-doing is held fully accountable."
http://www.isaf.nato.int/article/isaf-releases/isaf-commander-statement-on-civilian-casualties-in-kandahar.html
Here are a couple of interesting OpEd pieces from an Afghani newspaper which pretty much sums up a number of issues over there:
http://outlookafghanistan.net/topics.php?post_id=3545
http://outlookafghanistan.net/topics.php?post_id=3490
http://outlookafghanistan.net/topics.php?post_id=3434
Our efforts in A'stan have been like trying to drag your mother-in-law up a giant sand dune - you take three steps forward and backslide two steps...while the kvetching never ceases no matter what you do or how hard you try.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
Ok, I'm a bit pissed off already about this coverage of the U.S. soldier who went off the deep end and went on a shooting rampage against Afghanie civilians. It's almost as if the liberal press wants to paint a picture that we're all (soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines) blood thirsty warmongers, just one hair's breadth away from snapping (or just stepping out for a liesurely strole)and going on a killing spree at the first opportunity. They are sensationalizing this thing already. Flippin media needs a muzzle put on it, and needs to be reminded that it ought to spend more time delivering more of the good news that does quite often take place in our world. Yes, this atrocious act does play a major role in the ongoing sociopolitical chess game we're quagmired in with Afghanistan's government and people, and I understand that it will affect our overall relationship with the A'ghanie people, but, damn, how about some news on the schools and water plants being rebuilt and fully stocked with necessary supplies, hospitals and medical clinics being fully funded and manned by contractors and military personnel, and the training we're giving the A'ghanie people to run these places on their own once we're gone.
:confused: Same crap, different sandbox.
It's almost as if the liberal press wants to paint a picture that we're all (soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines) blood thirsty warmongers, just one hair's breadth away from snapping (or just stepping out for a liesurely strole)and going on a killing spree at the first opportunity.
Trip-Wire Vet Syndrome ala Dan Rather. :mad:
If you want morbid vet stuff, you should read some of the post-WW1 news articles. :eek:
OTOH, we see a lot more positive than negative vet reporting in the news around here.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
5thgrp"C"
03-11-2012, 17:27
I just got home from work to read more about what we were hearing all day on post, it sucks that this incident is going to be associated to our mission of VSO. They are saying that he was one of the conventional troops attached for support of VSO. I feel sorry for the team that is going to be associated with this incident.
Yep, fox news, msnbc, cbs msnbc, abc, pbs, they are all pretty much OFFC, with the way they spin the news depending on which Party they are aligned with. I'm sick and discussted with the whole lot. It's a miracle that anyone can figured out real from memorex anymore.
Can you name an incident in which the news was "spun" by Fox News?
Don't worry, the Spin Doctor in Chief will bend the collective nation over with a sign that says: insert here for an apology. :mad:
That said, I am not condoning what this soldier did in any way; we need to get out of there, and fast...
Media bias 101 - it's all biased. It would be interesting to see a follow-up study done today.
Richard :munchin
Media Bias Is Real, Finds UCLA Political Scientist
UCLA, Dec 2005
While the editorial page of The Wall Street Journal is conservative, the newspaper's news pages are liberal, even more liberal than The New York Times. The Drudge Report may have a right-wing reputation, but it leans left. Coverage by public television and radio is conservative compared to the rest of the mainstream media. Meanwhile, almost all major media outlets tilt to the left.
These are just a few of the surprising findings from a UCLA-led study, which is believed to be the first successful attempt at objectively quantifying bias in a range of media outlets and ranking them accordingly.
"I suspected that many media outlets would tilt to the left because surveys have shown that reporters tend to vote more Democrat than Republican," said Tim Groseclose, a UCLA political scientist and the study's lead author. "But I was surprised at just how pronounced the distinctions are."
"Overall, the major media outlets are quite moderate compared to members of Congress, but even so, there is a quantifiable and significant bias in that nearly all of them lean to the left," said co‑author Jeffrey Milyo, University of Missouri economist and public policy scholar.
The results appear in the latest issue of the Quarterly Journal of Economics, which will become available in mid-December.
Groseclose and Milyo based their research on a standard gauge of a lawmaker's support for liberal causes. Americans for Democratic Action (ADA) tracks the percentage of times that each lawmaker votes on the liberal side of an issue. Based on these votes, the ADA assigns a numerical score to each lawmaker, where "100" is the most liberal and "0" is the most conservative. After adjustments to compensate for disproportionate representation that the Senate gives to low‑population states and the lack of representation for the District of Columbia, the average ADA score in Congress (50.1) was assumed to represent the political position of the average U.S. voter.
Groseclose and Milyo then directed 21 research assistants — most of them college students — to scour U.S. media coverage of the past 10 years. They tallied the number of times each media outlet referred to think tanks and policy groups, such as the left-leaning NAACP or the right-leaning Heritage Foundation.
Next, they did the same exercise with speeches of U.S. lawmakers. If a media outlet displayed a citation pattern similar to that of a lawmaker, then Groseclose and Milyo's method assigned both a similar ADA score.
"A media person would have never done this study," said Groseclose, a UCLA political science professor, whose research and teaching focuses on the U.S. Congress. "It takes a Congress scholar even to think of using ADA scores as a measure. And I don't think many media scholars would have considered comparing news stories to congressional speeches."
Of the 20 major media outlets studied, 18 scored left of center, with CBS' "Evening News," The New York Times and the Los Angeles Times ranking second, third and fourth most liberal behind the news pages of The Wall Street Journal.
Only Fox News' "Special Report With Brit Hume" and The Washington Times scored right of the average U.S. voter.
The most centrist outlet proved to be the "NewsHour With Jim Lehrer." CNN's "NewsNight With Aaron Brown" and ABC's "Good Morning America" were a close second and third.
"Our estimates for these outlets, we feel, give particular credibility to our efforts, as three of the four moderators for the 2004 presidential and vice-presidential debates came from these three news outlets — Jim Lehrer, Charlie Gibson and Gwen Ifill," Groseclose said. "If these newscasters weren't centrist, staffers for one of the campaign teams would have objected and insisted on other moderators."
The fourth most centrist outlet was "Special Report With Brit Hume" on Fox News, which often is cited by liberals as an egregious example of a right-wing outlet. While this news program proved to be right of center, the study found ABC's "World News Tonight" and NBC's "Nightly News" to be left of center. All three outlets were approximately equidistant from the center, the report found.
"If viewers spent an equal amount of time watching Fox's 'Special Report' as ABC's 'World News' and NBC's 'Nightly News,' then they would receive a nearly perfectly balanced version of the news," said Milyo, an associate professor of economics and public affairs at the University of Missouri at Columbia.
Five news outlets — "NewsHour With Jim Lehrer," ABC's "Good Morning America," CNN's "NewsNight With Aaron Brown," Fox News' "Special Report With Brit Hume" and the Drudge Report — were in a statistical dead heat in the race for the most centrist news outlet. Of the print media, USA Today was the most centrist.
An additional feature of the study shows how each outlet compares in political orientation with actual lawmakers. The news pages of The Wall Street Journal scored a little to the left of the average American Democrat, as determined by the average ADA score of all Democrats in Congress (85 versus 84). With scores in the mid-70s, CBS' "Evening News" and The New York Times looked similar to Sen. Joe Lieberman, D-Conn., who has an ADA score of 74.
Most of the outlets were less liberal than Lieberman but more liberal than former Sen. John Breaux, D-La. Those media outlets included the Drudge Report, ABC's "World News Tonight," NBC's "Nightly News," USA Today, NBC's "Today Show," Time magazine, U.S. News & World Report, Newsweek, NPR's "Morning Edition," CBS' "Early Show" and The Washington Post.
Since Groseclose and Milyo were more concerned with bias in news reporting than opinion pieces, which are designed to stake a political position, they omitted editorials and Op‑Eds from their tallies. This is one reason their study finds The Wall Street Journal more liberal than conventional wisdom asserts.
Another finding that contradicted conventional wisdom was that the Drudge Report was slightly left of center.
"One thing people should keep in mind is that our data for the Drudge Report was based almost entirely on the articles that the Drudge Report lists on other Web sites," said Groseclose. "Very little was based on the stories that Matt Drudge himself wrote. The fact that the Drudge Report appears left of center is merely a reflection of the overall bias of the media."
Yet another finding that contradicted conventional wisdom relates to National Public Radio, often cited by conservatives as an egregious example of a liberal news outlet. But according to the UCLA-University of Missouri study, it ranked eighth most liberal of the 20 that the study examined.
"By our estimate, NPR hardly differs from the average mainstream news outlet," Groseclose said. "Its score is approximately equal to those of Time, Newsweek and U.S. News & World Report and its score is slightly more conservative than The Washington Post's. If anything, government‑funded outlets in our sample have a slightly lower average ADA score (61), than the private outlets in our sample (62.8)."
The researchers took numerous steps to safeguard against bias — or the appearance of same — in the work, which took close to three years to complete. They went to great lengths to ensure that as many research assistants supported Democratic candidate Al Gore in the 2000 election as supported President George Bush. They also sought no outside funding, a rarity in scholarly research.
"No matter the results, we feared our findings would've been suspect if we'd received support from any group that could be perceived as right- or left-leaning, so we consciously decided to fund this project only with our own salaries and research funds that our own universities provided," Groseclose said.
The results break new ground.
"Past researchers have been able to say whether an outlet is conservative or liberal, but no one has ever compared media outlets to lawmakers," Groseclose said. "Our work gives a precise characterization of the bias and relates it to known commodity — politicians."
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/Media-Bias-Is-Real-Finds-UCLA-6664.aspx
Utah Bob
03-12-2012, 09:00
FOX spins clockwise. CNN spins counter clockwise. The truth is somewhere in the middle.
Philkilla
03-12-2012, 09:04
What a great time to return to afghanistan from r&r leave..
Airbornelawyer
03-12-2012, 09:59
Media bias 101 - it's all biased. It would be interesting to see a follow-up study done today.
Richard :munchin
I would suspect the bias is more pronounced today. As the market for individual news outlets shrink, they will be more likely to target their core audience.
The past few decades has seen explosive growth in the world of alternative media, from talk radio to FoxNews to the internet. You are no longer forced to rely on the New York Times or CBS News, for example, for your news anymore if you find their bias troublesome. Since you don't need them, they don't need you. So they have even less incentive to moderate their biases, except maybe to retain key advertisers who don't want them to completely alienate a huge segment of consumers.
FOX spins clockwise. CNN spins counter clockwise. The truth is somewhere in the middle.
Kinda like watching the water spin in a flushing toilet in either the Northern or the Southern Hemisphere... ;)
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
Media bias 101 - it's all biased. It would be interesting to see a follow-up study done today.
Richard :munchin
Not much of a surprise there, a fascinating read nonetheless. Thanks for posting! :)
If someone who knows better tries to tell me that the mainstream news media, (not Fox) isn't biased toward libdems (with emphasis on the current presidential administration), they're trying to piss on me and tell me it's raining.
Anyone who doesn't know better is ignorant.
Yeah. Every other newscast. Or is what they do beyond "spinning" or any different than one of the other Murdoch owned enterprises has been guilty of doing in the past. I could be wrong but hey, history will ultimately reveal the reality. At the end of the day all of the news agencies work for different interests not necessarily in the best interest of the American people..
:munchin
lol Spoken like a true New York liberal.
You're right about one thing, though:
"I could be wrong..."
Destrier
03-12-2012, 12:08
Professional Soldiers.com
No spin drift zone
Fox news vs CNN, Home Depot vs Lowes, Pepsi vs Coke. It's the SOS, just different names. But, there's no doubt the conservatives has been hit big time under Obama.
Glenn Beck fired
Andrew Breitbart dead
Judge Andrew Napolitano fired http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOaCemmsnNk
Fox news vs CNN, Home Depot vs Lowes, Pepsi vs Coke. It's the SOS, just different names. But, there's no doubt the conservatives has been hit big time under Obama.
Glenn Beck fired
Andrew Breitbart dead
Judge Andrew Napolitano fired http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOaCemmsnNk
The SOS is that the news media are in the tank for the President when that President is Democrat and the earth is not flat.
Two undeniable truths.
ZonieDiver
03-12-2012, 15:04
The SOS is that the news media are in the tank for the President when that President is Democrat and the earth is not flat.
Two undeniable truths.
(emphasis added by ZD)
These guys aren't so sure about the last one of your "two undeniable truths"!
http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/
:D
Utah Bob
03-12-2012, 15:08
Kinda like watching the water spin in a flushing toilet in either the Northern or the Southern Hemisphere... ;)
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
8 points awarded for the toilet reference.:D:D
(emphasis added by ZD)
These guys aren't so sure about the last one of your "two undeniable truths"!
http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/
:D
You know what I mean Zonie, :mad::D
lol. Yes Sir, You "could" be right, but (thank God), not about being a "New York Liberal". New Yorker; you bet your "sweet bagel and creme cheese". Liberal, not even close. I've been confused with a few "types" in my day, but a "liberal" isn't one of them. I appreciate the humor though, I needed a good chuckle. BTW, Fox News is still anything but, "fair and balanced". :D :D :D
Stay Strong,
PJ
Yeah, well, to know every other broadcast is spun, you evidently watch all of them.
greenberetTFS
03-12-2012, 16:04
Comments made by the WSJ reporter this morning had a recording from a Taliban leader stating they will kill 10 American soldiers for each one (16,women and children)in retaliation of this shooting spree..........:( :( :(
Big Teddy :munchin
Some new information coming to light.
They are stating this solider had a Tramatic Brain Injury from an incident before hand.
Soldier Held in Afghan Massacre Had Brain Injury, Marital Problems
The Army staff sergeant who allegedly went on a rampage and killed 16 Afghans as they slept in their homes had a traumatic brain injury at one point and had problems at home after his last deployment, officials told ABC News.
But the soldier, who is based at Fort Lewis in Washington, was considered fit for combat duty and deployed to Afghanistan in December, officials said.
Details about the staff sergeant, who has not been identified, emerged as the Taliban vowed revenge against "sick-minded American savages" after the mass killing.
What has trickled about the suspect is that he was 38, on his fourth combat deployment in 10 years, the first three in Iraq. He was on his first tour in Afghanistan, where he'd been since December.
When the massacre took place he was assigned to Camp Belambay, a remote combat outpost where his job was to be protection for Special Operations Forces who were creating local militias. He was not a member of the special forces unit.
An official told ABC News that the soldier has suffered a mild traumatic brain injury (TBI) in the past, either from hitting his head on the hatch of a vehicle or in a car accident. He went through the advanced TBI treatment at Fort Lewis and was deemed to be fine.
He also underwent mental health screening necessary to become a sniper and passed in 2008. He had routine behavioral health screening after that and was cleared, the official said.
When the soldier returned from his last deployment in Iraq he had difficulty reintegrating, including marital problems, the source told ABC News, . But officials concluded that he had worked through those issues before deploying to Afghanistan.
The shooting occurred at 3 a.m. in three houses in two villages in the Panjway district of southern Kandahar province, an area that was once a Taliban safe haven but has recently become more safe after a surge of troops in 2009.
The soldier left the base in the middle of the night and wore night-vision goggles during the alleged rampage, according to a source.
The first village was more than a mile south of the base. While there, he allegedly killed four people in the first house. In the second house, he allegedly killed 11 family members -- four girls, four boys and three adults.
He then walked back to another village past his base where he allegedly killed one more person, according to a member of the Afghan investigation team and ABC News' interviews with villagers.
All of the victims were shot in their homes, according to villagers and the Afghan president's office.
Video from the scene show blood-splattered floors and walls inside a villagers home and blood-soaked bodies of victims, including the elderly and young children, wrapped in blankets and placed in the backseat of a van. Some of the bodies appear to have been burned.
John Kirby, a Pentagon spokesman, said officials "don't know what his [soldier's] motivation was. We are looking into that."
After the alleged shooting spree, it's believed the soldier returned to the base on his own and calmly turned himself in. He remains in NATO custody. One source told ABC News that the soldier had "lawyered up" and declined to talk.
Because of the soldier's role as supporting security for the special operations forces, he is not believed to have known the victims. But it's not clear whether the alleged attack was spontaneous and unprovoked.
Shooting in Afghanistan
The Taliban vowed revenge against "sick-minded American savages" after the mass killing.
The group said it would "take revenge from the invaders and the savage murderers for every single martyr," according to a statement posted on its website, the Times of London reported.
The fear now is that this latest incident could set off a fresh wave of violence.
The attack comes just as outrage stemming from burning of several Korans by members of the U.S. military seemed to be calming down.
The U.S. Embassy in Kabul has warned foreigners to keep a low profile.
Afghan President Hamid Karzai called it "an assassination, one that cannot be forgiven."
The Afghan parliament has passed a resolution in protest of the killings, and asked for a public trial of the U.S. soldier.
U.S. officials were quick to condemn the attack Sunday.
"I offer my profound regret and deepest condolences to the victims and their families," Gen. John Allen, head of NATO forces in Afghanistan, said in a statement.
"This deeply appalling incident in no way represents the values of ISAF [International Security Assistance Force] and coalition troops or the abiding respect we feel for the Afghan people."
NATO has launched its own investigation, and Karzai has sent his delegation to Kandahar for its own inquiry.
The White House said Sunday that Obama called "President Karzai to express his shock and sadness at the reported killing and wounding of Afghan civilians. President Obama extended his condolences to the people of Afghanistan, and made clear his Administration's commitment to establish the facts as quickly as possible and to hold fully accountable anyone responsible. The president reaffirmed our deep respect for the Afghan people and the bonds between our two countries."
http://news.yahoo.com/soldier-held-afghan-massacre-had-brain-injury-marital-061722796--abc-news.html
Joshua Foust is a fellow at the American Security Project and the author of Afghanistan Journal: Selections from Registan.net. He is a member of the Atlantic Council's Young Atlanticist Working Group, and used to work as a civilian cultural advisor for the U.S. Army.
Richard :munchin
Mass Slaughter Shocking, But Not Surprising
Joshua Foust, 13 Mar 2012
The shocking murder last weekend of 16 Afghan civilians -- 9 of them children -- by a U.S. soldier is raising many questions about the war. Coming right after the accidental burning of several Qurans at a U.S. base last month, which sparked mass protests across the country, it seems reasonable to ask: what is coming next?
The sad answer is that there probably won't be a huge public reaction to the killings. The burning of the Qurans -- which the U.S. claims was accidental -- was a fresh outrage to many Afghans.
While the Taliban often claims the U.S. disrespects Islam and wants to destroy it, few Afghans had any real reason to believe that in their daily lives. The Quran burning shocked the Afghan public enough for some political opportunists to whip up protests in response.
In contrast, Sunday's mass murder is not a new outrage for Afghanistan. While the deliberate killing of civilians is (thankfully) rare, many Afghans do not distinguish between accidental and deliberate civilian death.
Last May, U.S. helicopters in Kunar province came under rocket fire from insurgents; in responding they accidentally fired back at what turned out to be children gathering firewood, killing 9.
General Petraeus was quick to apologize for the incident, but nevertheless the reaction in Kabul was angry and resentful: many simply could not believe that children could be accidentally mistaken for insurgents. Sunday's mass killing is still shocking and upsetting -- but it is no longer surprising.
Sunday's mass murder, in other words, is not a game-changing event. The game has already changed, and many Afghans are not surprised when the U.S. kills a bunch of civilians.
Al-jazeera interviewed some of the survivors and uncovered a darker angle as well: one reason the victims did not resist is that they were used to the so-called "night raids" -- nighttime special operations raids on housing compounds. They were so used to Americans kicking in the doors to their homes and even shooting their guns that at first the rampage didn't seem strange.
So where does the war go from here? A huge challenge facing President Obama is that the U.S. is fighting one war while the insurgency is fighting a very different one.
The U.S. war is obsessed with the traditional metrics of warfare: holding territory, killing or capturing bad guys, exacting details of building roads, schools, and hospitals. The insurgency, on the other hand, is obsessed with influence, undermining confidence in the government, and creating the perception that the U.S. is at war with Islam.
Put simply, the U.S. never put in place the strategic and political framework to make much headway in Afghanistan. Despite the renewed push for negotiations with the Taliban, there is no political strategy for the country. There is no end state for the war, either -- right now, the plan is to drawdown to about 20,000 troops or so -- similar to troop levels in 2008 -- and stay that way for the indefinite future. That's not a strategy, and it's not a plan.
Because there is no political strategy for the war -- nothing that takes Afghan and Taliban politics into consideration -- the U.S. has no concept of how to manage or react to the political consequences of incidents like Sunday's rampage. That's why the military was clueless in responding to last month's Quran burnings, or to January's Marine urination scandal, or to the "kill team" in Kandahar last year.
At this point, there is little the U.S. can do to salvage the situation in Afghanistan. Sunday's mass killing is tragic but it is not a game-changing event. Focusing on a long-term commitment to working through Afghanistan politics is a good start -- de-emphasizing the military's role in the conflict and shifting to a politically and socially engaged role would actually address some of these shortcomings.
But shifting Afghanistan from a military engagement to a political one would, by design, extend U.S. operations there. An ABC News-Washington Post poll released Monday shows 60% of Americans no longer think the war is worth the costs. From the public's perspective, the house of cards is falling and the U.S. would do best to just pull out and cut their losses.
Ultimately, Afghans will suffer the consequences -- of Sunday's raid, of the war, of America's withdrawal from the region. Abandoning Afghanistan will impose huge costs in Afghanistan but the last ten years of directionless fighting has left Americans tired and frustrated with a war that seems to go nowhere but down. There needs to be a long-term strategy for the country but, especially now, it probably won't happen.
http://americansecurityproject.org/
greenberetTFS
03-13-2012, 17:09
Ultimately, Afghans will suffer the consequences -- of Sunday's raid, of the war, of America's withdrawal from the region. Abandoning Afghanistan will impose huge costs in Afghanistan but the last ten years of directionless fighting has left Americans tired and frustrated with a war that seems to go nowhere but down. There needs to be a long-term strategy for the country but, especially now, it probably won't happen.
It's time to pack up and go home,let's not have to lose ONE more American soldiers life for a country that doesn't give a shit about all we've done for them........:( :( :(
Big Teddy :munchin
...a country that doesn't give a shit about all we've done for them...
Teddy,
Some do, some don't.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
greenberetTFS
03-13-2012, 21:35
Teddy,
Some maybe, most don't.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
More like this actually........:mad:
ZonieDiver
03-13-2012, 21:40
More like this actually........:mad:
"Nation-building" is like sausage-making! The US made some errors in the beginning as to what we were trying to create - errors that are difficult, if not impossible to overcome, IMHO.
Can you name an incident in which the news was "spun" by Fox News?
Depends on what you are going to believe. FOX spins to the right every bit as much as MSNBC spins to the left. Aside from that anything involving the military is big freaking news. You know that as well as anyone. The 82nd Airborne is being referred to as special ops these days because they "can respond at a moments notice." The GD Rangers are being called Special Forces because they are not COSCOM guys....what the hell?!?!
Seriously, Dusty... when did we take sides in this bullshit??? The only thing we've cared about is the truth. remember the support guy down in Panama who hid in the saw grass and claimed to be SF?
ZonieDiver
03-13-2012, 22:45
While I think Fox does spin to the right, at least a bit... it is totally impossible for ANY news outlet to spin as far to the RIGHT as MSNBC does to the LEFT!
greenberetTFS
03-14-2012, 06:05
While I think Fox does spin to the right, at least a bit... it is totally impossible for ANY news outlet to spin as far to the RIGHT as MSNBC does to the LEFT!
Zonie
Talking about all of this spinning just makes me dizzy,lets just clean up our act and get the f*ck out of there before any more American life's are lost in a country that doesn't really give a shit.........:mad: Too many American life's already have been lost and you know the minute we leave the Taliban will take over and the 10 years we've spent there will be remembered as another Vietnam.........:mad: Only thank God it's not 60 thousand soldiers lost like it was then............ :mad:
Big Teddy :munchin
1stindoor
03-14-2012, 08:39
IAW MSNBC...
http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/14/10684063-marines-asked-to-disarm-before-panetta-speech
In an incident that underlined just how high tensions were running during Leon Panetta's trip to Afghanistan on Wednesday, around 200 Marines were asked to leave their weapons outside the tent where the U.S. Defense Secretary was set to speak, reporters there said.
"All I know is I was told to get the weapons out," Sergeant Major Brandon Hall told The New York Times. Asked why, he replied, "Somebody got itchy, that’s all I’ve got to say. Somebody got itchy; we just adjust."
According to the newspaper, the Marines who were waiting were abruptly told by their commander to get up, leave weapons, including M16 and M-4 automatic rifles and 9 mm pistols and return unarmed.Hall said he was acting on orders from superiors, the Times reported.
Disarming in this way was noteworthy, according to NBC News' chief Pentagon correspondent Jim Miklaszewski.
He told NBC's Chuck Todd that the move was "highly unusual" and that Marines in a combat zone are always supposed to have weapons within their reach.Msnb.com staff contributed to this report.
I am utterly speechless. It's time for me to go home...and retire.
Streck-Fu
03-14-2012, 10:21
Dudge headlines that a car bomb exploded as Panetta arrived. Hope those Marines won't need their weapons.
Will add link when available.....LINK (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/sky-sources-suicide-attack-afghanistan-154204155.html)
A suspected car bomb attack has taken place at Camp Bastion in Afghanistan, Sky Sources have revealed.
The explosion came as US Defense Secretary Leon Panetta flew into Camp Bastion. It is believed that Mr Panetta was still landing or had landed at the time of the alleged attack, but it is not clear if he was a target.
Sky's Stuart Ramsay said the explosion was caused when a vehicle drove on to the runway either during or after the landing.
Sky Sources have been told the explosion was caused by the driver of the vehicle. An investigation has now been launched into the driver's identity.
The driver, who appears to have survived the attack, has been taken into custody and is being treated for burns.It was not clear whether Mr Panetta was a specific target or not. Sky Sources said the explosion did appear to be an "attack of some description".
Did anyone mention that President Obama called the shooting at Fort Hood (by a muslim) "Work place violence" and the shootings in Afghanistan (by a non-muslim) "Murder"?
Just a thought.
sf
tom kelly
03-14-2012, 18:40
Pres. Obama AKA Barry Soetoro is a Muslim at heart....TK
Pres. Obama AKA Barry Soetoro is a Muslim at heart....TK
The thing about Muslims is, according to their religious doctrine, anything goes in any attempts to propagate Islam or convert/destroy infidels, right? So, how would you ever know for sure whether a guy was a Muslim-even somebody in an extreme position of political power?
A guy could mascarade as a Christian, Buddhist or whatever for years if he were on a mission for Allah.
Of course, somebody like that would have most likely been raised as a Muslim, and would have been indoctrinated by radicals to believe in the necessity of destroying America's status quo.
CloseDanger
03-14-2012, 21:17
It is workplace violence.
1stindoor
03-15-2012, 07:57
It is workplace violence.
By your logic then, so was alledged attack by the E-6.
The report I heard from a newsman accompanying the SecDef stated that the gathering also included a number of senior Afghan military personnel who were not allowed to attend armed, and the US commander had the Marines stack arms outside under guard as a sign of respect for our allies in a show of solidarity as a do as I do vs a do as I say scenario.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
Dozer523
03-15-2012, 08:42
Teddy,
Some do, some don't.
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin There was a time when Afghanistan was a backward little kingdom only visted by western hippies on their way from Amsterdam to India (and the plane back home to school). It was a happy little kingom but things could/should be better -- but as it so often goes, folks don't know when they are happy. We only realize we WERE happy when we aren't any more.
So they invited the Russians to help make it better and it got better before it got much worse.
Then the War Lords said they could make things better(with a little help from the Americans who actually weren't that interested in helping the Afghans as much as they wanted to hurt the Russians). And it got better before it got much worse.
And then the Taliban offered "better" IAW Islamic law and it got better before it got much worse.
Then the Americans came and . . . it got better before it got much worse.
About now, 30 years later, to most Afghans who just want to send their kids to school and have the lights turn on, I bet the king is looking pretty good.
It is "workplace violence" and it is "murder" are we parcing words here just for the sake of some "position". Lets try it this way.
Work place violence can be Murder, and Murder can be workplace violence.
Things that make you go, Hmmmm. :munchin :munchin :munchin
Not unlike this post.
There was a time when Afghanistan was a backward little kingdom only visted by western hippies on their way from Amsterdam to India (and the plane back home to school). It was a happy little kingom but things could/should be better -- but as it so often goes, folks don't know when they are happy. We only realize we WERE happy when we aren't any more.
So they invited the Russians to help make it better and it got better before it got much worse.
Then the War Lords said they could make things better(with a little help from the Americans who actually weren't that interested in helping the Afghans as much as they wanted to hurt the Russians). And it got better before it got much worse.
And then the Taliban offered "better" IAW Islamic law and it got better before it got much worse.
Then the Americans came and . . . it got better before it got much worse.
About now, 30 years later, to most Afghans who just want to send their kids to school and have the lights turn on, I bet the king is looking pretty good.
Amazing post sir,in my view the War Lords in the villages thought lets make a mess then the Soviets came to clear the mess when they saw failure was near they thought "Hey!As it is we won't have our nation thanks to the west so in return as a gift lets leave a HUGE mess for them to clean up."
As it turns out they succeeded,I bet the Russians must be laughing their butts off in the Kremlin.