View Full Version : 1st debate
NousDefionsDoc
09-29-2004, 16:33
Well, its manana en la noche. Wonder who's gonna win?
Are they going to publish the questions ahead of time?
You can vote for more than one option Saca and RL. You two guys are always voting for the last one.
I truly belive POTUS will win. He is focused, he knows what his positions are on all of the issues and sticks to them. I look for the orange faced challenger to stumble and flip flop live during the debate.
Sacamuelas
09-29-2004, 19:06
You can vote for more than one option Saca and RL. You two guys are always voting for the last one.
:lifter LOL
The POTUS is my real prediction. His character and clarity will prevail over kerry's flip-flops, avoidance, and vagueness.
mffjm8509
09-29-2004, 19:25
Man, I'm gonna miss it. I'm doing live tissue tommorow afternoon/night. I"m going to have to have the better half tape it for me.
mp
I'm doing live tissue tommorow afternoon/night.
mp
What happened, your TL piss you off again? :D
NousDefionsDoc
09-29-2004, 22:26
For the two people that have voted shut up Doc, this is for you:
Being an admin you can see who voted for what, so I think I'll hold off :D
I hope to catch this debate tommorow. I'm personally not interested in who wins (funny that) but I would like to see what each Gentleman has to say on foreign affairs.
mffjm8509
09-30-2004, 08:31
What happened, your TL piss you off again? :D
HA!
You know I screwed up a while back and didnt check the calendar before putting stuff on the training schedule.
I took the boys to Gurnsey, WY for heavy weapons training over Super Bowl Sunday. You'd figure the time I didnt check the TV guide is the year they bump up the schedule a week!
mp
Roguish Lawyer
09-30-2004, 09:15
I am expecting a solid Texas ass kicking. :D
shootandloot
09-30-2004, 09:22
Knowing POTUS, he'll directly call Kerry out on his flip-flops. Anyone remember the first debate against Gore? He'll made a reference to him "I created the internet" claim. I think his exact words were "He knows numbers so much he probably thinks he invented the calculator". My vote is for POTUS.
BTW, turned in the absentee ballot yesterday and POTUS has one more vote than he did the day before :)
shootandloot
09-30-2004, 09:26
BTW, I won't be able to actually see the debate because I'm going to Grafenvoer (sp?) tomorrow for a field exercise. If someone could e-mail me a news article so I canread it at a later date, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you.
shootandloot@hotmail.com
shootandloot
09-30-2004, 09:52
Grafenwoehr. ;)
Thanks :o :)
Roguish Lawyer
09-30-2004, 11:34
Man, I'm gonna miss it. I'm doing live tissue tommorow afternoon/night. I"m going to have to have the better half tape it for me.
mp
You need TiVo.
vacation81
09-30-2004, 13:46
I think the results of the debate itself will probably be pretty close to a draw or a slight victory for the President due to the highly structured format. However, since Kerry needs a clear victory just to make up ground on Bush, a draw in the debate will be an effective victory for the President in the campaign as a whole. Another plus for the President is that nobody is going to see anything they haven't seen before in terms of personality. At this point, people either like him or they don't. I think more people are undecided on Kerry. Unfortunately for him, people seem to like him less the more they see of him. I think the President's lead grows after this debate.
BTW, I won't be able to actually see the debate because I'm going to Grafenvoer (sp?) tomorrow for a field exercise. If someone could e-mail me a news article so I canread it at a later date, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you.
shootandloot@hotmail.com
why wait for the debate? ABCnews has already written their article
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040930_1184.html
NousDefionsDoc
09-30-2004, 14:43
why wait for the debate? ABCnews has already written their article
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040930_1184.html
Outrageous!!!
NousDefionsDoc
09-30-2004, 14:48
Somebody must have told them, they took it down. LOL
Outrageous!!!
I know! Next thing you know, people left and right decide who to vote for before the debate!!
absolutely outrageous.
Airbornelawyer
09-30-2004, 17:08
Outrageous!!!
The Democratic National Committee's time machine is apparently fixed.
Spread the Word that John Kerry Commanded the Debate (http://www.democrats.org/action/200409300001.html)
Here's the letter to the editor they have been nice enough to prepare for you to e-mail to your favorite media outlet:
In the first presidential debate, I was hoping to hear two things.
First, I wanted to hear John Kerry lay out his plans for Iraq and for winning the war on terror. I wasn't disappointed. Kerry staked out a strong plan to bring peace to Iraq and to refocus our efforts to fight terrorists around the world.
Second, I wanted to hear President Bush tell the truth about Iraq, but he refused. While his own intelligence services, military advisers, Republican colleagues, and even his Secretary of State have said that Iraq is in chaos, Bush still presents a version of Iraq seen through rose-colored glasses.
This debate made it clear: John Kerry is a leader we can trust to tell us the truth when it comes to our nation's security. George Bush has had his chance; I'm ready for a new direction.
:rolleyes:
NousDefionsDoc
09-30-2004, 19:48
I haven't heard any plan. I heard him say "I'll tell you exactly what I'm going to do." then proceed to say what POTUS has done "wrong".
POTUS looks a little ruffled to me. Pleading a little too much.
I don't know, actually, so I won't vote.
I will say, like I have been saying, that Bush has a tough fight to get re-elected. Not that he isn't right, but because people that don't already understand his leadership will not be convinced of it by watching from the debates, or his soundbites, or his addresses.
They will read the newspapers or watch the soundbites, and after listening to the reporting/editorialism for the day, will have their decision made for them. I betcha 1/3 of Americans do that. The minimal number of people who do vote and educate themselves should laugh at these debates. I think they are staged jokes.
I am very fearful of not having GW Bush as president. I actually like him, almost as much as his father. I just honestly don't like the Kerry message, and I have listened to him since May.
(I'm what you would call a swing voter, btw.)
I haven't heard any plan. I heard him say "I'll tell you exactly what I'm going to do." then proceed to say what POTUS has done "wrong".
.
His only strategy is "him wrong me right."
He has been doing it all night.
Kerry does bring up some good points, though. Not many, but some important ones.
I haven't heard any plan. I heard him say "I'll tell you exactly what I'm going to do." then proceed to say what POTUS has done "wrong".
POTUS looks a little ruffled to me. Pleading a little too much.
He sure is fond of saying he'd make a better choice, he has a plan, and of course he served in combat. But alas there is no substance...
I think POTUS would like to throttle him, but I personally think he is hitting the mark much more so than skerry.
POTUS nailed him on the Int'l court issue, and the "global test" remark. "We have the American people to protect, not some global test in foreign affairs."
Nice!
Achilles
09-30-2004, 20:42
Kerry was a debater at Yale so he had a one up on Bush from the beginning. IMO, this debate is going to help Kerry. Kerry can talk the talk; hes almost as slick as Clinton in that respect. But, hes not a moderate candidate, hes far left wing and his voting record shows that. He can stand on a podium and talk all he wants, but he will have a hell of a time getting the educated vote with such a hypocritical and non-participatory voting record.
'dem Harvard folks can debate as well, so lets not underestimate them. :D
Each camp is going to say "We communicated our message, poked holes in their opponent, blah, blah, blah."
These things are staged. Undecided voters, if they base their vote on the 3 debates, may possibly choose Kerry. That is why I dislike debates.
I give Bush a slight 33-32 edge on my "debate" card.
NousDefionsDoc
09-30-2004, 21:04
I had problems with:
1. Global test
2. Bigger coalition for Iraq and Iran - unilateral for NK.
3. Still no plan
4. Do it in a way that prevents terrorist recruiting
5. Consistant position
6. Give fuel rods to Iran to 'test theit honesty'
7. I know what its like to lose men in combat
8. UN, UN, UN
9. Secure all of Russia's free nukes in 4 years (wonder what Putin thinks about that?)
There are more, but those are the big ones I can remember.
Sacamuelas
09-30-2004, 21:09
Well, I may have to change my vote. LOL The POTUS wasted time talking about what he has done, how he has gone about it, why he did it, why it was better than the alternatives, etc.
I then heard the honorable JFK explicitly spell out in detail how he will win the war, disarm North Korea, protect our national homeland, promote our national security interests, and prevent iran from acquiring a viable nuclear weapons program....
He will have a summit.
I bet Osama, the mullahs in Iran, the terroists scum in Iraq, and all of our enemies around the globe including North Korea's dictator are shaking in their boots. :rolleyes:
You forgot that he will bring together a real coalition Saca...you know, because the one we have now is fake.
NousDefionsDoc
09-30-2004, 21:11
By how much did he say he will increase the number of Special Forces? Double it?
Sacamuelas
09-30-2004, 21:14
Double SF and increase the standing Army by two divisions.
Smokin Joe
09-30-2004, 21:15
I had problems with:
1. Global test
2. Bigger coalition for Iraq and Iran - unilateral for NK.
3. Still no plan
4. Do it in a way that prevents terrorist recruiting
5. Consistant position
6. Give fuel rods to Iran to 'test theit honesty'
7. I know what its like to lose men in combat
8. UN, UN, UN
9. Secure all of Russia's free nukes in 4 years (wonder what Putin thinks about that?)
There are more, but those are the big ones I can remember.
I'm hoping sKerry said this?
rubberneck
09-30-2004, 21:15
Is Sen Asshat wins he promised to double your numbers tonight, which tells me you guys are going to have to haul a hell of a lot of dead weight or get blamed for having standards. You also gotta love the idea of adding two divisions. Just who the hell is going to staff those divisions? It was just another case of Kerry throwing shit out there and never getting questioned on it, yet every last word the President utters is disected.
NousDefionsDoc
09-30-2004, 21:15
The "spoke to two troops in the airport and they said 'We need you.'" Thing was crap. He lied.
NousDefionsDoc
09-30-2004, 21:17
I'm hoping sKerry said this?
Roger that
Sacamuelas
09-30-2004, 21:19
Problem is NDD, the average citizen will not see the absurdity of his kerry's proposal of doubling the SF personnel within four years.
NousDefionsDoc
09-30-2004, 21:19
I honestly don't think Kerry has a clue as to the world, the military, terrorism or the Office of the President of the United States.
rubberneck
09-30-2004, 21:33
The "spoke to two troops in the airport and they said 'We need you.'" Thing was crap. He lied.
I don't think he lied becasue it was at a campaign stop and presumably those there like his flavor of kool aid. If you give me a large enough sample I can find two people who would support even the dumbest of ideas. The sad part is people who actually believe that these two soldiers represent reality as far as the military vote goes.
I had problems with:
1. Global test
2. Bigger coalition for Iraq and Iran - unilateral for NK.
3. Still no plan
4. Do it in a way that prevents terrorist recruiting
5. Consistant position
6. Give fuel rods to Iran to 'test theit honesty'
7. I know what its like to lose men in combat
8. UN, UN, UN
9. Secure all of Russia's free nukes in 4 years (wonder what Putin thinks about that?)
There are more, but those are the big ones I can remember.
Someone watched the debate.
What is most concerning to me is Kerry's comment about the "incredible mess in Iraq."
Now that is going to far to win an election.
I think his advisors mean SOF's, not SF's, but the polls say American's understand SF's better. Nice job fellas. We may step on Special Forces toes but we have reached more voters. Well done.
But the kicker was his insistance on unilateral talks with N Korea and blaming Bush for il Jong's nukes. So does this mean it only takes 4 years for a country like N Korea to develop nukes? What a crock.
Like I said, these debates are staged.
Radar Rider
10-01-2004, 01:00
Like I said, these debates are staged.Of course they are. Neither party (or as in some past instances, three parties) would have it any other way. No party in a debate at this level can afford to let a candidate seriously step on his crank. Case in point: Admiral Stockdale, who asked "Who am I? Why am I here?" At least he made that one veep debate interesting.
I watched the debate today (daytime in Korea). I think that President Bush won the debate, but it wasn't a slam dunk. He did state his personal position forcefully (stick with what you believe and don't back down), which is completely in his favor.
Some of the repeated issues require one to have some "situational awareness", which I fear that most voters don't have. To wit:
1) "I'll secure Russia's nuclear weapons in four years (sKerry)". What the hell? Last I heard, Russia is a sovereign nation, and it sure as hell is not OUR place to secure THEIR nuclear weaponry. I don't believe that any reasonable person could even fall for that untenable position.
2) The six party talks vis-a-vis North Korea are the best way to deal with Kim Jong Il. China, Russia, Japan and South Korea need to be involved in this issue. One on one talks with the U.S. has been a North Korea demand for years; that is a non-starter. The key point is that the Korean War was a UN operation; you'd think that sKerry with his desire for "coalition" and international operations would support the six party talks. To negotiate one on one with the Kim Jong Il regime would be the first defeat for U.S. diplomacy. Secondly, the concept that we will make North Korea give up it's nukes (another sKerry point). What??? They have nukes now, which is about their only bargaining position of power. They will not give them up for any political favor.
3) sKerry is going to "double Special Forces" and add two Army Divisions, but there will be no draft. Sounds good, but there is a problem with this concept: Reality. Two Army Divisions might be doable, but not the SOF concept. We all know that we just can't do that in four years and maintain the high standards and proud tradition that we have now. It's just not going to happen. However, as an aside, I would like to see the 11th and 12th Special Forces Groups return. :)
At any rate, GWB is the man, and shall be for another four years.
brownapple
10-01-2004, 04:47
I think his advisors mean SOF's, not SF's, but the polls say American's understand SF's better. Nice job fellas. We may step on Special Forces toes but we have reached more voters. Well done.
Actually, based on the specific missions that his campaign has mentioned, I think he actually does mean Special Forces, not SOF.
Of course, after his hit on "hiring warlords", he obviously doesn't understand what Special Forces does, or how the Taliban were routed so quickly and with so few American troops.
Achilles
10-01-2004, 06:56
Good point GH.
Doubling SF in four years? Woah. I'd say its possible but not in that time frame. Maybe 8 without lowering standards. Hell, I didn't know a thing about SF until I had a buddy lend me some books and reading through hours of material here on the net. Personally, I think SF should target college educated (or at least partially) athletic men with some info showing what SF is all about. In addition, increasing pay/benefits for SF (and certain other SOF) qualified Soldiers would lower the turnover rate by a large margin. Its completely understandable how many QP's end up working for Blackwater or retire to pursue a career in the IT industry or similar to support their families. Either that or marry a Dr, eh TS? :D
Just my outside perspective.
brownapple
10-01-2004, 07:15
The time frame required to increase SF has been discussed here by people in the best positions to know. You might do a search and educate yourself.
Achilles
10-01-2004, 07:20
Right after I clicked post I remembered reading what you described. I apologize for going off-topic.
Just a reminder to the good Senator (and those unfamiliar with the SOF Truths):
Humans are more important than Hardware.
Quality is better than Quantity.
Special Operations Forces cannot be mass produced.
Competent Special Operations Forces cannot be created after emergencies occur.
I'm a bit pissed off I missed this.
What were each candiates views on Foreign Policy? Specificly to a possible isolationist standing by the US.
Roguish Lawyer
10-01-2004, 11:29
I'm going to close this thread and start a new one for the day after the debate, since I think the passage of time changes the topic a little.
If anyone thinks I've screwed things up by doing that, let me know and I'll fix it.
NousDefionsDoc
10-01-2004, 15:46
I don't think he lied becasue it was at a campaign stop and presumably those there like his flavor of kool aid. If you give me a large enough sample I can find two people who would support even the dumbest of ideas. The sad part is people who actually believe that these two soldiers represent reality as far as the military vote goes.
You think John Kerry walked through an airport terminal like a regular guy?
NousDefionsDoc
10-01-2004, 15:50
I'm a bit pissed off I missed this.
What were each candiates views on Foreign Policy? Specificly to a possible isolationist standing by the US.
The only thing they agreed on was nobody understands New Zealand.